[quote=Amazon]The fact they were wrongfully discriminated doesn't change the idea of the argument that ideologies rarely die at the end of a barrel. [/quote]

The Jews and the Salem witches were "ideologies"?

Ideology: A relatively coherent system of values, beliefs, or
ideas shared by some social group and often taken for granted as
natural or inherently true.

[quote=Amazon]
Ideology: A relatively coherent system of values, beliefs, or ideas shared by some social group and often taken for granted as natural or inherently true.[/quote]

So, again, you figure the Jews and the Salem witches were ideologies? Do you understand the difference between a group and their "values, beliefs, or ideas" held by them?

I've seen some wtisted logic here before, but you may have set a new standard.

Again, call me when one of those other religions you mentioned earlier has a faction that's flying planes into buildings and/or ponfiticates that murdering non-believers is the path to heaven. Until then all the "every religion" claims in the world don't mean squat.

LOL…I overlooked Amazon’s first statement. I had no idea Salem was in Spain. Kinda throws out your credibilitiy right out the window.

Too true… I meant the Salem witch trials.

…

You get the idea of what I meant.

@Mike: A religion is an ideology. That makes Judaism an ideology. The holocaust is one of many attempts to silence an ideology, whether it be burning a neighbor or proposing world domination.

[quote=trisyn]I cannot believe you would classify extremist Muslim terrorists with two other groups who were wrongfully persecuted. People like you are the reason we may never win the war against terrorism.[/quote]

To win the war against terrorist we'd actually have to direct our efforts against terrorist. We're not doing that right now. As it stands, as well intentioned as we may be, we are viewed as the bad guys in the middle east. Please note the lack of a rose peddle greeting after the fall of Hussein. It is this lack of a rose peddle greeting that concisely shows our arrogant and complete misunderstanding of the people in this region.

Fighting terrorism is about hearts and minds, not guns and bombs. Terrorism is tool used to force political change. Want to win against terrorism? Show them that our way is better than their way. Pointing the gun that is the U.S. Military at people and telling them "It's our way or no way", as Iraq has shown us,  isn't the best way to get that done.

And those who say we are fighting terrorist in Iraq are right. Terrorist are among those we are fighting in Iraq. They weren't there when we got there, but they're there now. In fighting the war on terrorism we have unwittingly created a terrorist state. Our generation of Americans will surely go down in American history as the dumbest asses who ever lived.

Think about this: Their side wants everybody to live in the seventh century in shackles. Our side wants to give everybody a BMW, Ipod, and flatscreen TV with a life lived in complete freedom. And still we are losing. That's how bad our leaders are. How could we lose this?

It will get worse. Our borders are wide open.

[quote=mikebutler222]

 Ask the Imperialists in Japan and the Fascists in German and Italy if they agree..

[/quote]

We invaded another nation. Who's the imperialist now?

lack of a rose peddle greeting

What are you trying to say.   The Iraqis didn't have any  pink bicycles?

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

[quote=Amazon]Too true... I meant the <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Salem witch trials.

...

You get the idea of what I meant.[/quote]

Actually, the Salem witches didn’t survive the Salem witch trial, but that’s the least of the problems with you poor analogy.

[quote=Amazon]@Mike: A religion is an ideology. That makes Judaism an ideology. The holocaust is one of many attempts to silence an ideology, whether it be burning a neighbor or proposing world domination.
[/quote]

Lunacy. The holocaust was an attempt to exterminate and entire ethnic/religious group, millions of people. The “War on terror” is an attempt to end the violence of a faction of radical Islam. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

[quote=BondGuy] Fighting terrorism is about hearts and minds, not guns and bombs. Terrorism is tool used to force political change. Want to win against terrorism? Show them that our way is better than their way. [/quote]<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Ok, I'm a member of Al Qaeda, give me your evaluator speech.   

[quote=BondGuy]And those who say we are fighting terrorist in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Iraq are right. Terrorist are among those we are fighting in Iraq. They weren't there when we got there, but they're there now. [/quote]<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Actually, that’s not true. Not only was Al Qaeda present in Iraq before we invaded, the terrorists that plotted the first WTC bombing in 1993 and the hijackers of the Achille Lauro , murderers of American Leon Klinghoffer, though Saddam’s Iraq was a great place to retire.

[quote=BondGuy] Think about this: Their side wants everybody to live in the seventh century in shackles. Our side wants to give everybody a BMW, Ipod, and flatscreen TV with a life lived in complete freedom. And still we are losing. That's how bad our leaders are. How could we lose this? [/quote]

What a profound misunderstanding of the enemy. And it’s funny you should make that suggestion while being critical of the war in Iraq, since giving them that freedom, the BMW, the iPod, etc, is what was behind overthrowing a murderous dictator.

To those who would kill us (and they’ve been plotting and carrying out attacks against us long before your favorite political target came to office) your BMW, iPod, flatscreen TV and what you call “freedom” is exactly why they want to kill you. The fact that your women go unveiled, that your decedent culture has infected theirs, your music, your non-belief, your support for “monkey” Jews in their homeland, those are the reasons they want to kill you. They, the radical Islamists, are convinced that you and I are a cancer on Earth, and the only way they’ll get their faithful back right with Allah is to kill us. No compromises, no debate, no negotiation.

You make the mistake you claim others have made, of overlaying Western attitudes over an Islamic culture. It’s just that lack of understanding of what motivates the radical Islamic faction that is the real risk to our safety.

[quote=mikebutler222]

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

[quote=Amazon]Too true... I meant the <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Salem witch trials.

...

You get the idea of what I meant.[/quote]

Actually, the Salem witches didn’t survive the Salem witch trial, but that’s the least of the problems with you poor analogy.

There were witches in Salem? Wow, did I have this screwed up. I thought I read that there were people believed to be witches, which caused hysteria and led to innocent people being killed by their neighbors. An example to us all of the dangers of small thinking, gossip, and jumping to wrong conclusions. OR, if one believes they were witches one of great intolerance. Still, i thought they were people accused of being witches, not real witches.

[quote=Amazon]@Mike: A religion is an ideology. That makes Judaism an ideology. The holocaust is one of many attempts to silence an ideology, whether it be burning a neighbor or proposing world domination.
[/quote]

Lunacy. The holocaust was an attempt to exterminate and entire ethnic/religious group, millions of people. The “War on terror” is an attempt to end the violence of a faction of radical Islam. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

Unfortunately- The Wolfowitz Doctrine outlining a new world order and embracing pre-emptive military strikes was adopted by Bush 2 and has become the Bush Doctrine. The deep thinkers who knew better either weren't there or weren't able to stop the blunderers from making one of history's most colossal mistakes. And here we sit, mired in a civil war, with our borders wide open, and terrorist running free world wide.

We cannot fight an Idealogy with an army.

Bond Guy, since you are one of the smartest people in the room, what do you think about this;

1. Implementation of the strategy has been poor and the results (more) tragic, partly due to Rumsfeld's optimism about containing American casualties through the use of techology.

2. History will judge the outcome, but so far this is a sort time frame for judgement.

3. Let's not kid anyone - " terrorists" blew up Wall Street, and the " Arab World" is being put notice and being held accountable. Of course it is about oil, and stability in the Middle East. It is about moving a giant American base from Saudi to Iraq, taking " the game " off our own playing field through a projection of power, and the lessons we have learned - the learnings - are what will ensure our survival.

4. I'm not buying this crap that the fundamentalists or even the moderates like us any less now than before 9/11. If you don't project when you are in a position of power, you are weak.

5. Where are our good friends the Saudis in terms of leadership of the Arab world - including Palestine? Trying to stay in power as dicators, they profit from the suffering of the Palestinian people. There is no leadership, because the Musline world at large is a diaspora, victim of corruption and repression.

6. Point is, America is calling the shots, rightly or wrongly about this chapter, and all of the "free" analysis and discussion in this country is a good thing. If Hillary takes the helm tomorrow, our relationship with the Muslim world will not change quickly, and the fruits of our efforts will continue to grow. And the French and the Chinese will continue to profit from whoever they can, while mocking U.S. policy.

7. You above others, working on Wall Street, understand that this is about economic stability. Keeping a stream of oil supertankers streaming around the world, to maintain economic stability while we develop alternatives. Bush has made a lot of mistakes, history will remember him as having set a workable course of action following 9/11.

8. The whole thing really is about the freedom to watch American movies and listen to French rock music - the freedom for individuals and markets on every single square inch of earth to choose. Too bad, our culture sweeps over the past and destroys many beautiful traditions and cultural liturgical and social customs. This is the price of globalization, there is no turning back. The part about Capitalism with a heart needs to be better developed, but we see that happening through the Gates Foundation, and even Bush's optimism.

9. I don't care who gets elected next, let's just not be hypocrital about the meaning of free markets and free choice, and our responsibility to commit to leadership.

[quote=mikebutler222]

[quote=BondGuy]And those who say we are fighting terrorist in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Iraq are right. Terrorist are among those we are fighting in Iraq. They weren't there when we got there, but they're there now. [/quote]<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Actually, that’s not true. Not only was Al Qaeda present in Iraq before we invaded, the terrorists that plotted the first WTC bombing in 1993 and the hijackers of the Achille Lauro , murderers of American Leon Klinghoffer, though Saddam’s Iraq was a great place to retire.

You left out Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols.

[quote=BondGuy] Think about this: Their side wants everybody to live in the seventh century in shackles. Our side wants to give everybody a BMW, Ipod, and flatscreen TV with a life lived in complete freedom. And still we are losing. That's how bad our leaders are. How could we lose this? [/quote]

What a profound misunderstanding of the enemy. And it’s funny you should make that suggestion while being critical of the war in Iraq, since giving them that freedom, the BMW, the iPod, etc, is what was behind overthrowing a murderous dictator.

Don't you mean invading a sovereign nation on bogus evidence?

I misunderstand nothing. Their side uses religious fervor to control the masses , our side uses dollars.

To those who would kill us (and they’ve been plotting and carrying out attacks against us long before your favorite political target came to office) your BMW, iPod, flatscreen TV and what you call “freedom” is exactly why they want to kill you. The fact that your women go unveiled, that your decedent culture has infected theirs, your music, your non-belief, your support for “monkey” Jews in their homeland, those are the reasons they want to kill you. They, the radical Islamists, are convinced that you and I are a cancer on Earth, and the only way they’ll get their faithful back right with Allah is to kill us. No compromises, no debate, no negotiation.

They want to kill us because they want control. Everything you mention in your diatribe is their recruiting propaganda. Their leaders do not live the lives of pius men. Nor do they take the vow of poverty they force upon those they oppress. And oppression is the name of their game. They can't oppress us. We know them for the thugs that they are. That's why we have to go. We are a threat that they can't control. They use religion only to control their uneducated masses. They're as much about Islam as Brittney Spears is about Catholicism.

Our biggest mistake, underestimating them.

You make the mistake you claim others have made, of overlaying Western attitudes over an Islamic culture. It’s just that lack of understanding of what motivates the radical Islamic faction that is the real risk to our safety.

You're talking about the Bush team here. Big part of the current problem. That and creating a terrorist state. Like I said, dumbasses. Dumbasses all around, the Bush team ,and us, for letting him do it.

[quote=BondGuy][quote=mikebutler222]

[quote=BondGuy]And those who say we are fighting terrorist in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Iraq are right. Terrorist are among those we are fighting in Iraq. They weren't there when we got there, but they're there now. [/quote]<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Actually, that’s not true. Not only was Al Qaeda present in Iraq before we invaded, the terrorists that plotted the first WTC bombing in 1993 and the hijackers of the Achille Lauro , murderers of American Leon Klinghoffer, though Saddam’s Iraq was a great place to retire.

You left out Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols.

No, I didn't leave them out. But if you'd like to equate those two, fugitives from the law, with known terrorirts living openly in Saddam's Iraq, fine.

[quote=BondGuy] Think about this: Their side wants everybody to live in the seventh century in shackles. Our side wants to give everybody a BMW, Ipod, and flatscreen TV with a life lived in complete freedom. And still we are losing. That's how bad our leaders are. How could we lose this? [/quote]

What a profound misunderstanding of the enemy. And it’s funny you should make that suggestion while being critical of the war in Iraq, since giving them that freedom, the BMW, the iPod, etc, is what was behind overthrowing a murderous dictator.

Don't you mean invading a sovereign nation on bogus evidence?

The fact that the entire world's intelligence agencies figured wrong, and confused Saddam's refusal to allow the open and free weapons inspections he had agreed to for Saddam having WMDs doesn't change the fact that opening Iraq to freedom and the other Western values you mentioned was part of the reasoning.

I misunderstand nothing. Their side uses religious fervor to control the masses , our side uses dollars.

Come on, Bondguy, that simply makes no sense. The radical Islamists aim to install a Taliban caliphate along the entire map where Islam once held sway. That's the Middle East to Spain and they've been very, very open about it.

To those who would kill us (and they’ve been plotting and carrying out attacks against us long before your favorite political target came to office) your BMW, iPod, flatscreen TV and what you call “freedom” is exactly why they want to kill you. The fact that your women go unveiled, that your decedent culture has infected theirs, your music, your non-belief, your support for “monkey” Jews in their homeland, those are the reasons they want to kill you. They, the radical Islamists, are convinced that you and I are a cancer on Earth, and the only way they’ll get their faithful back right with Allah is to kill us. No compromises, no debate, no negotiation.

They want to kill us because they want control.

Control to establish the Caliphate.

Everything you mention in your diatribe is their recruiting propaganda. Their leaders do not live the lives of pius men.

Radical Islamists aren't driven by their vision of Islam? Bin Laden did live in a cave and plot to destroy the WTC because of a twisted vision of Isalm?

 They can't oppress us.

Been to the hole where the WTC was, lately? Seen the pictures of the US Embassies in Africa? The USS Cole? The Kobar towers?  What is it they can't do, short of occupying the country?

We know them for the thugs that they are. That's why we have to go.

Huh?

We are a threat that they can't control. They use religion only to control their uneducated masses. They're as much about Islam as Brittney Spears is about Catholicism.

Amazing....

Our biggest mistake, underestimating them.

No, it's thinking they're not genuine about their religious agenda. These aren't people looking for peaceful co-exisitance, these are religious zealots who want to kill you for being a non-believer.

You make the mistake you claim others have made, of overlaying Western attitudes over an Islamic culture. It’s just that lack of understanding of what motivates the radical Islamic faction that is the real risk to our safety.

You're talking about the Bush team here. Big part of the current problem. That and creating a terrorist state. Like I said, dumbasses. Dumbasses all around, the Bush team ,and us, for letting him do it.

No doubt about it, this fixation that it's "all about Bush plays" into the hands of the Islamists. They know they planned against us and attacked us prior to Bush. They know they don't give a rat's ass who's in the Whitehouse. They couldn't care less if Obama was there. But they do, no doubt, enjoy all this "it's all about Bush" stuff. The war against us was on before the 2000 election, it will continue long after the 2008 election. They know it's about their twisted view of Islam.

Execution was poor, at the same time, so easy to call them all dumbasses with the benefit of hindsight.

[quote=GolFA]

Unfortunately- The Wolfowitz Doctrine outlining a new world order and embracing pre-emptive military strikes was adopted by Bush 2 and has become the Bush Doctrine. The deep thinkers who knew better either weren't there or weren't able to stop the blunderers from making one of history's most colossal mistakes. And here we sit, mired in a civil war, with our borders wide open, and terrorist running free world wide.

We cannot fight an Idealogy with an army.

Bond Guy, since you are one of the smartest people in the room, what do you think about this;

1. Implementation of the strategy has been poor and the results (more) tragic, partly due to Rumsfeld's optimism about containing American casualties through the use of techology.

Agree, poor implementation. Deeper than technology. Rummy beleived we could do more with less. He hated the military buracracy and with blinders on fought his own military advisors when they told him Iraq would take more troops than he wanted to commit. The real truth is, had Ruumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz and Bush listened to real numbers they couldn't move forward. The amount of troops necessary to do job was more than we could commit.

2. History will judge the outcome, but so far this is a sort time frame for judgement.

Disagree. Invading Iraq was a wrong move. There was no need to invade. At least not at that time, for that reason. If we apply our reasons for invading Iraq to Iran we should be invading Iran. Iran is a real problem now. A clear and present danger. Yet, no invasion? As for Iraq, it wasn't a threat. There was no need to invade. The rest of the mess there is of our own doing. We destablized an incredibly volatile area of the world.

3. Let's not kid anyone - " terrorists" blew up Wall Street, and the " Arab World" is being put notice and being held accountable. Of course it is about oil, and stability in the Middle East. It is about moving a giant American base from Saudi to Iraq, taking " the game " off our own playing field through a projection of power, and the lessons we have learned - the learnings - are what will ensure our survival.

What lessons have we learned? That an army can't defeat ideaology?

4. I'm not buying this crap that the fundamentalists or even the moderates like us any less now than before 9/11. If you don't project when you are in a position of power, you are weak.

Kinda like a bully flexing his muscles? Wolfowitz would love you. Essentially we've become the imperialist forcing our ideaology upon the world. This doesn't sit well with the fence sitters, makes us look bad to our friends, and let's the extremist say "See i told you they were no good." Does this spread hatred? I don't know, but it sure doesn't spread love.

5. Where are our good friends the Saudis in terms of leadership of the Arab world - including Palestine? Trying to stay in power as dicators, they profit from the suffering of the Palestinian people. There is no leadership, because the Musline world at large is a diaspora, victim of corruption and repression.

Yup, and we're helping them do it. For oil of course!

6. Point is, America is calling the shots, rightly or wrongly about this chapter, and all of the "free" analysis and discussion in this country is a good thing. If Hillary takes the helm tomorrow, our relationship with the Muslim world will not change quickly, and the fruits of our efforts will continue to grow. And the French and the Chinese will continue to profit from whoever they can, while mocking U.S. policy.

7. You above others, working on Wall Street, understand that this is about economic stability. Keeping a stream of oil supertankers streaming around the world, to maintain economic stability while we develop alternatives. Bush has made a lot of mistakes, history will remember him as having set a workable course of action following 9/11.

Agree that our presence in the middle east is purely strategic in nature, to protect our interest. We can thank Wolfowitz for his important work in this area. Prior to Wolfowitz our middle east interest were completely unprotected.

Disagree about Bush setting a workable course. Bush completely dropped the ball. We are not safer today than we were in 2003. The middle east is not a more stable place, it is a less stable place.

8. The whole thing really is about the freedom to watch American movies and listen to French rock music - the freedom for individuals and markets on every single square inch of earth to choose. Too bad, our culture sweeps over the past and destroys many beautiful traditions and cultural liturgical and social customs. This is the price of globalization, there is no turning back. The part about Capitalism with a heart needs to be better developed, but we see that happening through the Gates Foundation, and even Bush's optimism.

9. I don't care who gets elected next, let's just not be hypocrital about the meaning of free markets and free choice, and our responsibility to commit to leadership.

Free markets are the key to economic prosperity. Unfortunately for this one region of the world, millions of people are a long way from the starting gate of free markets.

[quote=BondGuy] Fighting terrorism is about hearts and minds, not guns and bombs. Terrorism is tool used to force political change. Want to win against terrorism? Show them that our way is better than their way. [/quote]<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><?:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O />

Ok, I'm a member of Al Qaeda, give me your evaluator speech.   

[quote=mikebutler222]

[quote=BondGuy] Fighting terrorism is about hearts and minds, not guns and bombs. Terrorism is tool used to force political change. Want to win against terrorism? Show them that our way is better than their way. [/quote]<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><?:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O />

Ok, I'm a member of Al Qaeda, give me your evaluator speech.   

[/quote]

Bond Guy is assuming that we are dealing with rational people who have a similar world view as we do, instead of dealing with people who have been brainwashed since youth to hate, who are certifiably insane and who have no intention of listening to anything we say.

The more we talk, the weaker they percieve us to be.......and they are right.

[quote=BondGuy][quote=GolFA]

Unfortunately- The Wolfowitz Doctrine outlining a new world order and embracing pre-emptive military strikes was adopted by Bush 2 and has become the Bush Doctrine. The deep thinkers who knew better either weren't there or weren't able to stop the blunderers from making one of history's most colossal mistakes. And here we sit, mired in a civil war, with our borders wide open, and terrorist running free world wide.

We cannot fight an Idealogy with an army.

Bond Guy, since you are one of the smartest people in the room, what do you think about this;

1. Implementation of the strategy has been poor and the results (more) tragic, partly due to Rumsfeld's optimism about containing American casualties through the use of techology.

Agree, poor implementation. Deeper than technology. Rummy beleived we could do more with less. He hated the military buracracy and with blinders on fought his own military advisors when they told him Iraq would take more troops than he wanted to commit. The real truth is, had Ruumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz and Bush listened to real numbers they couldn't move forward. The amount of troops necessary to do job was more than we could commit.

Yep.

2. History will judge the outcome, but so far this is a sort time frame for judgement.

Disagree. Invading Iraq was a wrong move. There was no need to invade. At least not at that time, for that reason. If we apply our reasons for invading Iraq to Iran we should be invading Iran. Iran is a real problem now. A clear and present danger. Yet, no invasion? As for Iraq, it wasn't a threat. There was no need to invade. The rest of the mess there is of our own doing. We destablized an incredibly volatile area of the world.

No, for example, North Korea is contained through multilateral pressure. Pragmatism dictates taking each situation separately.

You may be right about the invasioin being a mistake, but looking at the situation right now, I'm not sure about that conclusion.

I'm sure the action and timing has as much to do with a lack of resolve of the American people ( there was a window) - which seems to be born out now. Ironically, this lack of resolve becomes a self fulfillment.

Maybe 9/11, with its implications of fundamentalist (Saudi) support, or at least the Saudis being out of control, fused part of my brain.

3. Let's not kid anyone - " terrorists" blew up Wall Street, and the " Arab World" is being put notice and being held accountable. Of course it is about oil, and stability in the Middle East. It is about moving a giant American base from Saudi to Iraq, taking " the game " off our own playing field through a projection of power, and the lessons we have learned - the learnings - are what will ensure our survival.

What lessons have we learned? That an army can't defeat ideaology?

I was thinking more about the military experience - my guess is the American military has learned a lot, and having the capability to project power - not always use it, but to be clear about the potential in the future - that we have learned a lot.

4. I'm not buying this crap that the fundamentalists or even the moderates like us any less now than before 9/11. If you don't project when you are in a position of power, you are weak.

Kinda like a bully flexing his muscles? Wolfowitz would love you. Essentially we've become the imperialist forcing our ideaology upon the world. This doesn't sit well with the fence sitters, makes us look bad to our friends, and let's the extremist say "See i told you they were no good." Does this spread hatred? I don't know, but it sure doesn't spread love.

You're right, this does not spread love, or maybe it is tough love. It seems like you are being logical, but you don't fully extend your logic: our role is to maintain the (potential) to project military power. The French role is to sell weapons to anyone they want. The Chinese role is to secure oil in any manner possible, to prevent economic and social disruption.

Logically, if you never exercise power, you don't really have it. My impression is, there was a lot of self interest ( including the stability of a society that includes a large Muslim population), and economic self interest, around support of our actions.

Not whining, because Hilary or whoever will just pick up the ball and keep running. But there is so much hypocracy, people say, this is just about oil. Of course it is about oil. People say, we are just projecting force and pissing off the entire Muslim world. Yes, that's right. Think it through.  

5. Where are our good friends the Saudis in terms of leadership of the Arab world - including Palestine? Trying to stay in power as dicators, they profit from the suffering of the Palestinian people. There is no leadership, because the Musline world at large is a diaspora, victim of corruption and repression.

Yup, and we're helping them do it. For oil of course!

Of course. If the world goes into a dark recession, we are all screwed. More children in Indonesia will go to bed hungry if the global economy gets shut down by a few people.

6. Point is, America is calling the shots, rightly or wrongly about this chapter, and all of the "free" analysis and discussion in this country is a good thing. If Hillary takes the helm tomorrow, our relationship with the Muslim world will not change quickly, and the fruits of our efforts will continue to grow. And the French and the Chinese will continue to profit from whoever they can, while mocking U.S. policy.

7. You above others, working on Wall Street, understand that this is about economic stability. Keeping a stream of oil supertankers streaming around the world, to maintain economic stability while we develop alternatives. Bush has made a lot of mistakes, history will remember him as having set a workable course of action following 9/11.

Agree that our presence in the middle east is purely strategic in nature, to protect our interest. We can thank Wolfowitz for his important work in this area. Prior to Wolfowitz our middle east interest were completely unprotected.

Disagree about Bush setting a workable course. Bush completely dropped the ball. We are not safer today than we were in 2003. The middle east is not a more stable place, it is a less stable place.

You may be right.

8. The whole thing really is about the freedom to watch American movies and listen to French rock music - the freedom for individuals and markets on every single square inch of earth to choose. Too bad, our culture sweeps over the past and destroys many beautiful traditions and cultural liturgical and social customs. This is the price of globalization, there is no turning back. The part about Capitalism with a heart needs to be better developed, but we see that happening through the Gates Foundation, and even Bush's optimism.

9. I don't care who gets elected next, let's just not be hypocrital about the meaning of free markets and free choice, and our responsibility to commit to leadership.

Free markets are the key to economic prosperity. Unfortunately for this one region of the world, millions of people are a long way from the starting gate of free markets.

Too bad about the meltdown of American resolve. It comes from complacency. Most Americans have never visited a developing country. The real implication is that our own existence here is more threatened, and you can thank people of average intelligence everywhere for confusing the important issues.