[quote=Put Trader]

At some point many candidates are invited for a drink after work–I
used to do that routinely.  My intention was to take a measure of
the guy in a casual environment.  There was a great chance to lose
the job offer here–smokers are stupid and there is no room for
stupidity in my world.  Not only are they stupid, they’re also
going to be less than productive because they’re going to be wandering
off every half hour or so for a “smoke break.”  The morons
standing outside a buidling smoking are not on the fast track to
success. 

[/quote]



So smokers are stupid?  I used to smoke.  One thing I loved
to do was stand outside the building with other brokers and the
occasional trader and shoot the breeze.  It’s great way to
network, discuss current events, and talk about business.



Not all of us like to do our socializing between toilet stall dividers.

[quote=inquisitive]So smokers are stupid?  I used to smoke.  One thing I loved
to do was stand outside the building with other brokers and the
occasional trader and shoot the breeze.  It’s great way to
network, discuss current events, and talk about business.



Not all of us like to do our socializing between toilet stall dividers.

[/quote]



Are there no choices to socialize except in the bathroom or out with the morons smoking?

"When a branch manager picks up a resume and seeks the name is Squishianna Jones that manager is going to toss that resume in the round file.  It's not because he doesn't like black people, it's because he knows that investors are not going to trust somebody with a name like that.  That is not racism."

You know, I think that is racism, or perhaps racism's first cousin, the assumption that others are racist. I'm not calling you a racist, and perhaps you know something about your market that I don't, but there may very well be people who would trust someone with that name.

I really don't want to start a political thread, but would you hire a woman named Condoleezza? It would seem some pretty important people would. It really wounldn't be fair to not give Squishianna a chance assuming she's professional in her bearing, knowledgable and has drive. Sure she'll face hurdles, but we all do in some form and fashion.

Have you ever heard of a guy named Sarano Kelly? He seems to have done OK in this business

[quote=Put Trader] [quote=inquisitive]So smokers are stupid?  I used to smoke.  One thing I loved to do was stand outside the building with other brokers and the occasional trader and shoot the breeze.  It's great way to network, discuss current events, and talk about business.

Not all of us like to do our socializing between toilet stall dividers.
[/quote]

I am 17 months off cigarrettes and I still consider myself a complete tit for having been a smoker.....why? Because the urge to have a cigarette is still there, everytime a stressfult occassion comes into my life - it is usually accompanied by the dreamy aroma of a malboro red cigarette.....which is an awful sensation to fight off......and that problem will stay with me to the day I die - and lets face it, when I started I knew the facts - that over 100,000 people die each year from cigarette related lung cancer, it took over five packets of cigarettes to be smoked before I overcame the reek and coughing sensation my lungs were being subjected to ..........if that is not the definition of a moron - what is........

Also, Mr Put Trader, I am not gonna fall for your intellectual gymnastics in justifying your particular strand of racism - if you are uncomfortable with your prejudices - change them instead of splitting hairs. 

The harsh reality in the United States is the races do not get along and as a result they do not trust each other.



I have not been in a room when Sarano Kelly was talking but I have been
in plenty of rooms when people like him are working the group up. 
I have been in relatively small gatherings where one of the others in
the room was Stan O’Neal–the black CEO of Merrill Lynch.  He is a
imposing figure, confident and all that goes with success.



I also know that he was chosen for his role over others–Launny
Steffens for example–because Merrill was under attack from the
diversity pimps.  Launny would have been a far better choice but
his skin reflects light while O’Neals absorbs it and at that moment in
time that mattered more than anything else.



Mr. O’Neal did not “grow up” at Merrill, or even in the industry. 
He was hired from another firm–General Motors perhaps–sometime in the
mid 1980s.  He was also not hired into the sell side of the firm,
instead he was hired into investment banking a division where color
matters very little because just about everybody involved is dealing
with other people’s money.



But, where the rubber hits the road–retail brokerage–the overriding
factors are emotional.  Mr. and Mrs. Jones have $750,000 in a
401(k) and they are retiring.



They are going to turn to somebody who they feel understands them and
the issues that drive them.  They are going to turn  to
another middle aged white person if they’re white and they’re going to
turn to a middle aged white person if they’re black.



Why do you suppose that is?  Why do you suppose that a black guy
who is retiring from the Department of something or other is more
inclinded to choose a forty five year old white guy to advise them?

"The harsh reality in the United States is the races do not get along and as a result they do not trust each other."

There's an element of truth to that, but there are also many examples where that’s “wrong” enough that people counted out survive and thrive when given a chance. For a manager to refuse to hire someone because he's thinks the racial climate in the country is so bad that a black rep couldn't succeed is just wrong. There are too many examples I can provide you as proof. Yes the road of a minority rep is tougher in some ways, but that's no reason for them to not be given the chance. I mean, since so many hires fail, for reasons other than race, it isn’t as if those hiring have much of a handle on who’s going to succeed.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I suppose that since you didn’t answer my question, you would have thrown out the resumes of someone named Condoleezza, or Oprah or maybe even Colin. If you ever find yourself giving a deposition in a lawsuit about racist hiring practices, you’ll want to keep your theory to yourself. You may well think you’re doing the potential hire a favor, but you aren’t, it’s wrong and I have little doubt it’s illegal as well.

“I have not been in a room when Sarano Kelly was talking but I have been in plenty of rooms when people like him are working the group up.”

I wasn’t thinking of him in his role of “working the group up”, but in his old role as a rep. Somebody looked past the name and the black skin and hired him. They were well rewarded for doing so. 

[quote=stanwbrown]

“The harsh reality in the United States is the races do not get along and as a result they do not trust each other.”

There's an element of truth to that, but there are also many examples where that’s “wrong” enough that people counted out survive and thrive when given a chance. For a manager to refuse to hire someone because he's thinks the racial climate in the country is so bad that a black rep couldn't succeed is just wrong. There are too many examples I can provide you as proof. Yes the road of a minority rep is tougher in some ways, but that's no reason for them to not be given the chance. I mean, since so many hires fail, for reasons other than race, it isn’t as if those hiring have much of a handle on who’s going to succeed.

[/quote]

Is it the role of a branch manager to be a social engineer, or to maximize the return per square foot of his branch?

You even admit that there is truth to the point of view that blacks have a very difficult--almost impossible--row to hoe.  The black guy who fills in for Limbaugh, Walter Williams, is a professor somewhere who believes that it is doing blacks an injustice to invite them into environments where they are destined to fail.  He does not believe, for example, that colleges and universities should accept blacks on the off chance that they might make it.  That when they fail the failure will affect their psyche to the point that they may for the rest of their lives be failures.

Black guys can be great insurance salesmen--but serving as a financial advisor is a far more tricky role.  Mr. and Mrs. Jones can buy a whole life policy from a black guy confident that if it is the wrong thing for them they can adjust that mistake later.  They do not have such confidence in accepting advice regarding investments.

Yesterday I alluded to bad doctors.  It's said that they bury their mistakes.  Well, as we all know that is not always true--there are plenty of live victims of botched medical procedures.  Often the victim's life, while affected, is not severely affected.

That is not the case when it comes down  to an incompetent financial advisor whose incompetence resulted in a loss of assets so significant that one would simply wish they were dead.

It's possible to lead a semi normal life if a doctor amputated the wrong leg--it's not possible to lead a semi-normal life if you approached a financial advisor with a nest egg that disappeared because he or she was incompetent.

I assure you that nobody would feel comfortable to be lying in a hospital, about to undergo elective surgery, and have an unexpected black doctor come in and say, "Your regular doctor is away on a family emergency so I'll be doing  your procedure......."

Imagine that you were behind a one way mirror about to choose a financial advisor from a group of three individuals--sort of like in a lineup.

You're told that each of the three is a college graduate and each of them has been through the brokerage firm's training program--essentially they're "equal."

The curtain opens to reveal four 26 year olds, all dressed in very appropriate business attire, all well groomed.  They are not going to speak--you'll have to make your choice based on what you see.

Are you going to choose the white guy, the white girl, the black guy or the black girl?

You know as well as I do that a huge--as in HUGE--majority of people will choose the white guy, followed by the white girl, followed by the black girl, followed by the black guy.  Perhaps nobody will choose the black guy.

[quote=stanwbrown]

I suppose that since you didn’t answer my question, you would have thrown out the resumes of someone named Condoleezza, or Oprah or maybe even Colin. If you ever find yourself giving a deposition in a lawsuit about racist hiring practices, you’ll want to keep your theory to yourself. You may well think you’re doing the potential hire a favor, but you aren’t, it’s wrong and I have little doubt it’s illegal as well.

“I have not been in a room when Sarano Kelly was talking but I have been in plenty of rooms when people like him are working the group up.”

I wasn’t thinking of him in his role of “working the group up”, but in his old role as a rep. Somebody looked past the name and the black skin and hired him. They were well rewarded for doing so. 

[quote=Put Trader] [quote=stanwbrown] <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

"The harsh reality in the <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />United States is the races do not get along and as a result they do not trust each other."

There's an element of truth to that, but there are also many examples where that’s “wrong” enough that people counted out survive and thrive when given a chance. For a manager to refuse to hire someone because he's thinks the racial climate in the country is so bad that a black rep couldn't succeed is just wrong. There are too many examples I can provide you as proof. Yes the road of a minority rep is tougher in some ways, but that's no reason for them to not be given the chance. I mean, since so many hires fail, for reasons other than race, it isn’t as if those hiring have much of a handle on who’s going to succeed.

[/quote]

Is it the role of a branch manager to be a social engineer, or to maximize the return per square foot of his branch?

You even admit that there is truth to the point of view that blacks have a very difficult--almost impossible--row to hoe. 

[/quote]

I don’t see how there’s a contradiction in admitting that there’s a tough road ahead for a minority hire AND saying that it IS possible and managers are wrong to dismiss that possibility entirely. Sorry, but your crystal ball about who will, and who will not succeed just isn’t that well calibrated.

[quote=Put Trader]

The curtain opens to reveal four 26 year olds, all dressed in very appropriate business attire, all well groomed.  They are not going to speak--you'll have to make your choice based on what you see.

Are you going to choose the white guy, the white girl, the black guy or the black girl?

[/quote]

Interesting question, but it’s so far removed from reality that it surely can’t be the basis for a hiring decision. Reps get better than a line up to make their pitch to potential clients.

 [quote=stanwbrown]

I suppose that since you didn’t answer my question, you would have thrown out the resumes of someone named Condoleezza, or Oprah or maybe even Colin. If you ever find yourself giving a deposition in a lawsuit about racist hiring practices, you’ll want to keep your theory to yourself. You may well think you’re doing the potential hire a favor, but you aren’t, it’s wrong and I have little doubt it’s illegal as well.

“I have not been in a room when Sarano Kelly was talking but I have been in plenty of rooms when people like him are working the group up.”

I wasn’t thinking of him in his role of “working the group up”, but in his old role as a rep. Somebody looked past the name and the black skin and hired him. They were well rewarded for doing so. 

[/quote]

[quote=Put Trader]
Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell both rose to where they rose because of Affirmative Action--especially General Powell who is actually nothing more than a incredibly lucky at being in the right place at the right time.

[/quote] Both received help via AA, no doubt. But that fact is they DID succeed after they got the chance. Consider your decision to hire someone who fits every part of your hiring criteria except name and skin color to be an AA hire (in fact, by your corporate policy it probably is). BTW, just as an aside, I worked for Colin Powell and I can assure you he’s 100% the real deal. I would have followed him anywhere.

[quote=Put Trader]

Sarano Kelly has all the potential of being  a flash in the pan. 

[/quote]

Now you’re just grasping at straws. The guy with the funny name and black skin was a major producer and he’s someone you wouldn’t have hired because you wanted to “help” him avoid disappointment.

[quote=Put Trader]

Get back with me in ten years about him.  Joseph Jett is another Kidder veteran who did a lot of gross and is no longer in production.

[/quote]

Oh come on. Jett was a criminal. What could that possibly have to do with Kelly? Is he assumed a criminal because of his skin color? Is he more likely to be a criminal? Why even bring up Jett?

[quote=Put Trader]
With each of these individuals--Condi, Colin, Oprah and Sarano--none of them is competing for the trust of an individual. 

[/quote]

I couldn’t disagree with you more. That’s exactly what they did you get hired to their highest positions. You don’t think Oprah had to compete for the trust of the person who gave her her big chance? You don’t think she’s earned the trust of the individuals who have become her supporters? You’re kidding…

[quote=Put Trader]

But when asked, "Would you allow a black person to manage your money?" you're going to solicit the same inner feelings that would come out if you asked, "Would you like your child to marry somebody from another race?"

[/quote]

I’m not going to tell you you’re 100% wrong, but you’ve surely been proved often enough that a blanket “no” to potential hires with funny names and black skin s an obvious mistake.

[quote=Put Trader]

The role of finanical advisor is exceptionally personal--when done right the client opens up completely to the advisor.  People are going to choose somebody that they feel remarkably comfortable with.

You know it, I know it, all God's children know it.
[/quote]

Yep, and we both know you’ve been proved wrong often enough with your blanket “no” that you should know better by now.

[quote]But when asked, "Would you allow a black person to manage your money?" you're going to solicit the same inner feelings that would come out if you asked, "Would you like your child to marry somebody from another race?"[/quote]

I'm dating someone outside my race right now.  My family, friends, etc don't seem to think anything of it.  In fact for the last 2-3 years i've been pretty exclusive to girls outside of my race. 

[quote=Stan]I
don’t see how there’s a contradiction in admitting that there’s a tough
road ahead for a minority hire AND saying that it IS possible and
managers are wrong to dismiss that possibility entirely. Sorry, but
your crystal ball about who will, and who will not succeed just isn’t
that well calibrated.[/quote]



I have never said that it is impossible to succeed as a black broker,
what I have said is that it happens so rarely that a manager is a fool
to waste a desk on anybody other than a middle aged white male.



The brokerage business is not a social laboratory, it is the epitome of
the “private” sector.  My theme is that this is one of the few
businesses where customers are driven by a vast array of emotions that
culminate in a relationship that, when done right, is as deeply
personal as a marriage.



Against that backdrop I do think it’s unfair to managers to have their
superiors telling them to hire a minority and I think it’s unfair to
the minority to be hired.



The industry can provide opportunities for minorities in operations,
investment banking, public relations and a host of other areas. 
But it’s just plain bullheaded to think that minorities are going to be
able to reach the goals set for whites in the selling side of the
business.



How do you force investors to do business with somebody who they may
consider to be a good enough guy around town–but, for whatever reason,
they don’t want to tell him how much money they have in investments
and/or open up in any number of other ways?



Leave the social engineering where it belongs–which is…you know
social engineering doesn’t really belong anywhere come to think of it.

Your arrogance Mr Put Trader, aswell as your ignorance is nothing short of breathtakingly outstanding.

Here's a question for you. Two guys are behind a curtain, the hiring manager is told that they are essentially the same, and has to choose between the two of them....

The curtain raises and the first guy is black and when asked why he should be taken on as a rep in financial services says, "I am hungry, determined and ambitious"

The second guy is white, calles himself Put Trader and when asked why he is in the financial services industry states " so that I can talk sh*t all day long and spend my weekdays posting all sorts of racist crap on financial forums.....

I'd give the black guy the job each and every time.

[quote=dancethedrink]

Your arrogance Mr Put Trader, aswell as your ignorance is nothing short of breathtakingly outstanding.

Here's a question for you. Two guys are behind a curtain, the hiring manager is told that they are essentially the same, and has to choose between the two of them....

The curtain raises and the first guy is black and when asked why he should be taken on as a rep in financial services says, "I am hungry, determined and ambitious"

The second guy is white, calles himself Put Trader and when asked why he is in the financial services industry states " so that I can talk sh*t all day long and spend my weekdays posting all sorts of racist crap on financial forums.....

I'd give the black guy the job each and every time.

[/quote]

And the award for the worst analogy ever, goes to.......

"I have never said that it is impossible to succeed as a black broker, what I have said is that it happens so rarely that a manager is a fool to waste a desk on anybody other than a middle aged white male."

Wow. I have to tell you, and I've been trying not to get personal, but that is damned near the dumbest thing I've heard lately...

I'm curious. If you DO hire only "middle aged white males", assuming you haven't been fired or sued, or both, what percentage of those guys work out? 25%?

"  My theme is that this is one of the few businesses where customers are driven by a vast array of emotions that culminate in a relationship that, when done right, is as deeply personal as a marriage."

There are many relationships like that. Your Priest/Rabbi/Minister/Guru, your doctor, your lawyer, just to name three. You figure it was a waste for minorities in those fields to be hired?

I'm beginning to wonder where you're living that you think the races distrust each other so much that one group never trusts the other...

"Against that backdrop I do think it's unfair to managers to have their superiors telling them to hire a minority and I think it's unfair to the minority to be hired."

Amazing. The washout rate for whites is what, 85%. Even if the washout rate for minorities was 99.9999999% is that gap so large, and your crystal ball to well calibrated that you can spot the 14.999999% difference?  Sorry, but I'm not only not convinced, I've seen living evidence that you're wrong.

" But it's just plain bullheaded to think that minorities are going to be able to reach the goals set for whites in the selling side of the business."

You say that even though you've seen it happen? Really?

"How do you force investors to do business with somebody...."

You don't have to "force" anybody to do anything. It's not like the distrust level is 100% or that there aren't potential clients among minority groups that minority reps could work with even IF 99.9999% of whites are the racists you claim.

[quote=stanwbrown]

You don’t have to “force” anybody
to do anything. It’s not like the distrust level is 100% or that there
aren’t potential clients among minority groups that minority reps could
work with even IF 99.9999% of whites are the racists you claim.

[quote=stanwbrown]

“I have never said that it
is impossible to succeed as a black broker, what I have said is that it
happens so rarely that a manager is a fool to waste a desk on anybody
other than a middle aged white male.”

Wow. I have to tell you, and I've been trying not to get personal, but that is damned near the dumbest thing I've heard lately...

"I'll say it slowly so you can get it.

”It.....is.....not.........racist..........to......want.... .....to.......do.....business......with ....somebody......w ho......is.......like.......you. "<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

There’s no need to say it slowly OR again as I’ve never said otherwise.

Up to this point we've been focusing on managers who simply refuse to hire minorities and your defense for them, not the decisions of potential clients. Clients are free to use whatever basis they like to chose whomever they’d like in whatever hiring they do. Period. They may well have racist motives, but again, we’ve been discussing managers.

The fact is the relationship between an advisor and a client is a close one, but not uniquely so. I’ve already pointed out to you other areas where the relationship is just as close and the races have been known to “cross lines”. It’s also been pointed out to you that minorities HAVE succeeded in this industry, so you’re theory that the odds are just so remote that the manager’s doing the potential hire a break by not hiring them is just silly. Even if 100% of whites refused to work with minorities, there’s money in the minority community.

You refused to answer any questions I posed to you about wash-out rates and how well your hiring crystal ball is, so I’ll assume that’s because it’s a weak point in your argument.

”Why do you suppose the successful black middle manager at the Department of Housing and Urban Development is more likely to choose a white guy as his financial advisor?”

I don’t suppose that. It could well be HE doesn’t take race into account when hiring. It could be a prior relationship. It could be he hasn’t encountered a minority rep.

 I know I’ve prospected black business owners a number of times only to be told they wanted to bring their business to another minority. The same applies to some Jewish prospects I’ve approached. “Supporting your own” has a real attraction to some minorities, which would undermine your “even blacks prefer to hire white advisors” theory.

[quote=Stan]You
refused to answer any questions I posed to you about wash-out rates and
how well your hiring crystal ball is, so I’ll assume that’s because
it’s a weak point in your argument.[/quote]



I am not refusing to answer it–it’s just another nonsensical point of view you have.



When selecting somebody to fill a desk the manager owes it to himself to choose the most likely winner.



If only 15% of white guys make it, but only 5% of blacks make it only a
fool would counsel, “Take the black guy, take the black guy” when the
challenge is to hire a "keeper."



In the sh*thousefirm environment you appear to come from the manager
hires anybody who applies–but in the rarfied air of the real firms
each manager gets a shot or two a year at a new hire.



They, the managers, are not social engineers they are businessmen and
they’re idiots to waste their pick on somebody who comes to bat with
the count 0 and 2.

[quote=Put Trader] [quote=stanwbrown] <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

"I have never said that it is impossible to succeed as a black broker, what I have said is that it happens so rarely that a manager is a fool to waste a desk on anybody other than a middle aged white male."

Wow. I have to tell you, and I've been trying not to get personal, but that is damned near the dumbest thing I've heard lately...

[/quote]

Really?  In the march of time--years and years and years--is it not true that white males have succeeded in far greater percentages than any other identifiable group?
[/quote]

Of course that’s true. What you seem unable to grasp is just because that’s true doesn’t justify YOU refusing to hire minorities. In fact, you’re helping to make sure that never changes. Do you have any doubt that what you say about potential reps was said about minorities applying to law school or medical school? Do you figure no whites hire minority doctors or lawyers today?

You keep talking about the odds of a minority succeeding, and indeed it’s less likely, but the fact is such a small percentage of white male hires work out that it’s laughable to hear someone say they can be so amazingly accurate in their hiring that they can find the difference in the 85% of whites that work don’t out and the say, worst case 99.9999% of minorities that don’t.

[quote=Put Trader]
How many people do you think might not do business with a broker because they were a white man?
[/quote]

I’ve met some and you’ve heard experiences here about others that wouldn’t. The fact is that number isn’t so large that it would keep white males from succeeding, but it would go a long way towards making life good for the small percentage of women and minorities in the biz.

[quote=Put Trader]

How about how many people are there who might not do business with a woman?  A black?  An Hispanic?

[/quote]

That percentage is no doubt higher, HOWEVER it isn’t so high that minorities can’t succeed and/or should be hired. There’s plenty of assets available with people who WILL work with minorities and women. That’s already been proved.

[quote=Put Trader]
Is the role of a branch manager to maximize the gross revenue of his office or to provide employment to those who are finding it difficult to land a job?
[/quote]

Obviously its’s the former (although your latter assertion doesn’t hold much water. Just because a manager won’t hire them doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty or opportunity for them elsewhere) and TO THAT END the manager shouldn’t be so blind as to say there are no minorities that can succeed OR believe their own powers of assumption about potential hires is so sharply tuned that they can determine that 14.9999% gap I’ve mentioned.

It seems to me that in a business where 85% of the “favored” group fails to work out it’s just silly to claim that the chances are “too remote” to hire women and minorities. “Remote”? 15% sound pretty remote and we still hire everyday.

Then there’s always the fact that it’s illegal….

I
know I’ve prospected black business owners a number of times only to be
told they wanted to bring their business to another minority. The same
applies to some Jewish prospects I’ve approached. “Supporting your own”
has a real attraction to some minorities, which would undermine your
“even blacks prefer to hire white advisors” theory.



I’d agree that that is true among the Jews–fortunately for them there’s no shortage of Jewish brokers from which to choose.



It is far less true among blacks–it’s got to do with Affirmative
Action.  Blacks are just as likely as the rest of us to conclude
that the reason the broker has a black face is because of the black
face rather than skills and intelligence.



Often a black middle manager knows that he, himself, is really nothing
more than  an affirmative action hire pretending that he’s equal
to everybody else–and he’s damn reluctant to trust his future, his
money, to a fellow dumbass pretending to be something he’s not.



Again–for the umpteenth time–there is no reason to declare, "I’m not going to do business with him because he’s a white guy."



You never get a second chance to make a first impression.  When it
comes time to be chosen for the pickup basketball game it’s good to be
a big tall black guy–but when it comes time to being chosen as a
financial advisor it’s best to be a good looking white guy between 35
and 55 years old.