Yes.  However, most of us here don’t have any direct experience with the PWM arena.  It’s a bit of a different world from the average retail side (even for someone go after high net worth type people).

Anyone have any, or know anyone with firsthand knowledge concerning this bank or a similar bank?

Sanfran broker is our resident HNW contributor. PM him/her, he may be able to give you some direction.

[quote=BondGuy]Sanfran broker is our resident HNW contributor. PM him/her, he may be able to give you some direction.[/quote]

Agreed.  There is also another guy/gal running around here who worked on the PWM side in some capacity at GS...I can't quite remember who it is, but if you do a search, the thread was in the last couple months. 

If you are not sh*tting us and do get hired at Goldman...please stick around, we have too few UHNW contributors on this board and there seems to be a lot of curiousity about Goldman Sachs.

Thanks for joining us here.

[quote=BondGuy]Sanfran broker is our resident HNW contributor. PM him/her, he may be able to give you some direction.[/quote]

Thank you, but not entirely accurate. I work for a large wirehouse just like everyone else here (more or less), but its in the Bay Area - there does seem to be quite a bit of UNHW in my office and most of us have a few very wealthy clients.

Really, the only REAL UHNW firms that practice wealth management, as opposed to investment product sales to the UHNW are Northern, US Trust and other wealth management boutique firms that cater to mainly inherited money and Fortune 500 C - level execs). At the top end of the wirehouse universe (GS, CSFB, MS PWM, etc), the services are really not wealth management, but actually sales. The wirehouse elite who cater to the wealthiest are a sales manager's dream - always selling all the time OR they have a billionaire client who pays the broker $750,000 a year in money market credits alone.  

As far as I can tell - at a wirehouse, the "efficient frontier" of professionalism vs average wealth level of clients seems to be VERY steep upward at the beginning and then have the same trajectory down on the extreme levels of wealth. MOST (not all) of the real UHNW brokers that I know are completely reptillian; sleazeballs or total frauds. They've been very lucky at some point (I started as a broker at Robinson Stephens in 1990) or stumbled across a crazy opportunity (my best friend in college was one of the Gettys) very early on. Some are great and very smart, but the vast majority are very disappointing once you've gotten a chance to know them.

To the question - I believe that the base is $75k/year at Goldman Sachs for Associates. GS is somewhat unique in that it pays base salaries. I don't think any other wirehouse does... I would assume that it's higher for VPs, but essentially its negligible - they will be making $300-$2 million off their commissions and I think the salary's a draw.

I have no idea for MDs - I would assume that it's like 12 million ($3 million net) or so that you'd be doing in commissions at that level...

The comp structure also changed at Goldman in the last few years....

San Fran,

I couldn’t help but see that you are including MS as a firm that caters
to UHNW clients, by MS, I hope you don’t mean Morgan Stanley. They will
also go after grandma’s 401k. The only firms at the UHNW level are:
Bear Stearns, Credit Suisse Securities, Deutsche Bank Alex Brown,
Goldman Sachs, and last but not least Lehman Brothers.

Now, I falied to mention that, ML is arguably up there but they will
take smaller ones like MS and Smith Barney etc. The guys mentioned
above shoot for 20mm+ per client. They even boast that they have a min.
of 10mm to do business with them, but that is not true. If you have
several million they will do business. The reason I know this is that I
opened my neighbors mail by accident when it got sent to us. It was a
Lehman Bros. account. They had 9 million. At the time we had a Lehman
account too. Anyway, these are your ultra net worth boys.

Rook you have no idea what you are talking about….

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If you are going to compare MS and GS you must first look at the entire firm.  MS IB division is larger than GS, MS has a retail division GS has none, and I am not even going to compare MS proprietary funds to GS.    

Generally both firms require 10 mil for PWM, but they will both work with smaller accounts.  It is asinine to say one firm will only work with a certain amount of money.

rook–you’re way off.  MS is precisely what san fran meant…that is the PWM which is quite similar (or would like to be at least) to Goldman PWM.  Only difference is that MS married up w/DW, which is the mass market retail demographic of which you speak.  If you knew anything, you’d know that was part of the whole shake up in management in the last 18mos at MS as a whole (eg no more MDW symbol, but MS instead) and and the retail arm (really the old DW side of things trying to move more towards a MS mentality, etc).  MS PWM hires MBAs, etc., just not necessarily from a top tier program.  For example, in Houston MS might hire at UT grad where as GS probably has a Wharton, HBS, or Stanford guy.  All the same once you start hunting I’m sure (unless the hunted is an alum or respects a name school more).

[quote=rook4123]Now, I falied to mention that, ML is arguably up there but they will take smaller ones like MS and Smith Barney etc. The guys mentioned above shoot for 20mm+ per client. They even boast that they have a min. of 10mm to do business with them, but that is not true. If you have several million they will do business. The reason I know this is that I opened my neighbors mail by accident when it got sent to us. It was a Lehman Bros. account. They had 9 million. At the time we had a Lehman account too. Anyway, these are your ultra net worth boys. [/quote]

Your understanding of these firms is pretty basic rook... If you read sanfran's post it clearly says MS---PWM (Private Wealth Management).  MS PWM is EASILY in Goldman Sachs territory and ML/Smith Barney are in a little different league altogether...maybe Merrill's Private Banking division is similar, but it is relatively young compared to Morgan's PWM.

[quote=DirtyDeltaBro]

Generally both firms require 10 mil for PWM, but they will both work with smaller accounts.  It is asinine to say one firm will only work with a certain amount of money.

[/quote]

I do KNOW this: Goldman tells its associates not to bring in accounts less than $2 million and that their target market should be $10 million and above.

I have many clients who are in pre-IPO situations that get calls from CSFB, MS PWM and other firms (Weisel, etc), but GS only seems to cold call the board members of those companies. My guess is that they are only interested in a client once they've already made it or whom they assume must be a big wheel if they're on the board...

[quote=rook4123]San Fran,
I couldn't help but see that you are including MS as a firm that caters to UHNW clients, by MS, I hope you don't mean Morgan Stanley. They will also go after grandma's 401k. The only firms at the UHNW level are: Bear Stearns, Credit Suisse Securities, Deutsche Bank Alex Brown, Goldman Sachs, and last but not least Lehman Brothers.
[/quote]

I missed DB AlexBrown in that list, but I didn't miss Bear or Lehman. Those firms are stuck in the past and full of brokers who are doing business with anyone who has $200k to blow on an idea; even if you have just the $200k or $200 million. Alex is a REALLY tough place to build a business right now. Technology is a JOKE - they still use Lotus Notes for Christ's sake.

After DB took over BT Alex. Brown, most of their top IR’s left and went
to other firms.  For the top UHNW practices, Goldman does it very
well.  Depending on the city you are in your salary will be
different.  You come in as an analyst who works on a team with
other IR’s (or whatever they call them over there).  Your program
is 2-3 years after which you can decide whether or not you like it,
even then, they have to decide whether or not they like you.  If
they like you, you can be promoted to an associate and actually start
working on clients and wheeling and dealing.  When you get into
this UHNW group of people, you are really doing a lot of
alternatives.  For example, GS had a Tommy Lee feeder fund
recently which I knew was hard as hell to sell against (who doesnt want
to invest with Tommy Lee).  A lot of LPs and other such investment
vehicles.  Overall, GS and MS have extremely good UHNW
shops.  GS does do a lot of pre and post IPO planning.  When
their IBD does a deal they bring in their Private Wealth group to do
all the business, so in essence, they money that GS made for the
company (or liquid) stays in the family. 

Do you guys think that it is easier to get clients if you work in UHNW at GS, MS, or CSFB than at a major wirehouse?  I guess the question is do you get warm leads to work?<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

It seems to me that it is hard enough to get people with 500k to use you if you are under 25 and at a wirehouse how the heck are you gona convince some CEO with 15 million to use you? (because it seems those are the accounts that the PWM guys are after)

[quote=futureadvisor]

Do you guys think that it is easier to get clients if you work in UHNW at GS, MS, or CSFB than at a major wirehouse?  I guess the question is do you get warm leads to work?

[/quote]

When I spoke with GS they told me that you form a team with a group of other trainees and it is up to your team to generate all of the leads.  I don't think that even with a name like GS behind you that getting a 10mm+ client is an easy thing to do.  These people are all somewhere else and you need to give them a good reason to leave.  I feel that it's especially difficult being a team of newbies as opposed to being a newbie on a team of seasoned professionals (That's the way that JPM does it).

I do however think it's easier to get a $10mm+ client working at GS, JPM, UST than if you are working at a standard wirehouse.  Most of the UHNW people want/need a team that is familiar with the specific needs of the UHNW segment.

--WM

I stand corrected, I am clearly out of my element here. I will say
this, though Goldman Sachs has one hell of a better reputation than
Morgan Stanley. If you want to argue this, than I am all ears.



Sidenote-

The word on the street is that EDJ is forming a higher net worth
division, that is why all the EDJ brokers are getting there series 66.
Maybe once they are set up, they will be like MS higher net worth
division, but probably better

Again, Rook you have no idea what you are saying…

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Your knowledge comes from the retail side.  MS PWM is just as prestigious as GS.. 

Everyone has made excellent points in regard to starting with GS. 

 <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Here is a question for everyone:

 I bet if you compared a boiler room superstar (example JT Marlin) and a GS superstar solely on pure SALES ability, the guy from the boiler room would come out on top.

At one time there actually were JT Marlins out there.  I think today they exist more so in the mortgage industry.    

Wait a minute, are we talking about Morgan Stanley, ok b/c I was
confused. Yes, Morgan Stanley is the best firm in the world.
Especially, the private wealth management side.



I believe you are in denial my man.



I will put it like this, I read a lot. My spelling sucks, but anyway,
in no place that I’ve read, and yes I’ve read about MS PWM before, does
anyone ever compare GS and MS PWM. I’m not going to say that MS is not
better than AG E, or EDJ, but it is by no means a GS even when you are
talking about the MS PWM. Sorry buddy, somethings are just what they
are.