I have had most of those discussions in PM's with other members of this board. I am not on any other fora, I might add.

Thanks.  Fora - hah!  Like it.

Still not over four years of latin school, I guess!

Bogleheads is pretty good

You can PM Wet_Blanket. He is a compliance guy at an RIA. I would say if there is an RIA forum, he would know about it. I don't know of any that have the level of activity that RR or AdvisorHeads (the forum that cannot be mentioned) has. But it is more of a melting pot of all business models.

Also, you can try RIA Central to start with. It claims to have 700 members. But I have no idea if it has a forum or other platform for interaction between members.

Thanks folks.

No problem, just don't tell them dayum Libs about it.

  But the limitation is that those perspectives are highly weighted to the RR, sales side, as opposed to planning and investment strategy.  Have any RIA's found other forums for intelligent discussion on these topics?

I'm curious how many of the "strategic" RIAs here are state insurance licensed (fixed subaccounts) or broker dealer affiliated (hybrid) (variable subaccounts).

Or can you only handle "wrap"? What do you mean by weighted perspectives, since RRs can handle everything? Wouldn't it be most RIAs who are highly weighted to sales of their wrap program? How about an intelligent discussion on perspectives and assumptions or your slamming RRs? :).

Ms. Client, here is my strategy, you pay me an extra one percent for the rest of your life, and together we will avoid those nasty commissions.

RRs are too stupid to have their CFP and be real planners.

Permanent insurance is a rip-off.

Being able to accept commissions is a conflict of interest.

VUL should never be used as an "investment".

There is your story, Mr. Editor. Why RRs should be proud to be RR, and push back on some of the BS of the "RIA Revolution". People are going RIA for the money and freedom, and insurance sales by advisors have dropped precipitously over the past couple of years.

Client's best interest? How about some basic examination of attitudes and why you can still feel proud to be a fully licensed advisor?

What questions you should ask your advisor when she says she is going RIA to eliminate conflicts of interest.

Do fee based advisors not have a conflict of interest in regards to the level of risk they "advise" their clients to accept? It seems to me that fee based advisors will try to increase the overall risk of the book to the advisor's risk tolerance in efforts to grow the book which increases fees collected.

Ha ha. It takes more risk to get more return. If you have enough AUM and your fixed expenses are covered, the bias is probably toward capital preservation.

If you don't know if you'll be in business next year and the market seems ready to leap, I guess one might go aggressive. Good point.

I think the real conflict of interest is back to, " You pay me 1% for the rest of your life ...", vs. some of the other alternatives, the lies told to the public.

I'm not saying that we should not be paid 1%, I'm saying, you have the editor of RR wondering about the price of GLD, and the entire industry is melting down and devouring itself, while the liberals want to tax and borrow their way to prosperity.

I'm about ready to retreat and create the first (affordable) golf monastery (temporary retreat from the secular  world gone mad).

An RIA can do anything an RR can do. 

Want to charge a fixed fee on a transaction?  Fine disclose it.

Want to sell insurance?  Fine, have your own insurance shop.  You'll have more choices that your RR friends.

Want to charge a flat fee?  Do that.

Want to charge % of AUM?  You can do that too.

Want to charge a retainer and bill against it hourly?  Go for it.

Charge hourly?  Sure

Charge per type of work?  Sure

So, as an RR, if a clients asks, "Can I just pay you hourly?", what is your answer?

As an RR, if a client asks you, "I just want a financial plan and then manage the investments myself, can you do that?", what do you say?

If a client asks an RR (at a captive firm), "how many other choices of insurance carriers can I use?", what do you say?

An RIA can do anything an RR can do. 

An RR can do anything an RIA can do.

Want to charge a fixed fee on a transaction?  Fine disclose it.

Most charge 1% or more per year on AUM. Period.

Want to sell insurance?  Fine, have your own insurance shop.  You'll have more choices that your RR friends.

Not independent RRs. Don't want to sell insurance? Don't bother to have your own insurance shop, and have a bias toward AUM and collecting 1% for life.

Want to charge a flat fee?  Do that.

Most do. What they don't charge is a commission, which is fixed and one time.

Want to charge % of AUM?  You can do that too.

Yep. Favorite thing. For life.

Want to charge a retainer and bill against it hourly?  Go for it.

Easier just to wrap it all in 1.5%. Seriously, what % of your fees are fixed and one-time?

Charge hourly?  Sure

So can I.

Charge per type of work?  Sure

Yep, we can do that. I'm not really an expert in insurance, because I don't sell the products, but I could sit around and do that hourly, except I'd really rather just manage your assets and let the insurance guy do the insurance. Of course, I don't really believe in insurance...

So, as an RR, if a clients asks, "Can I just pay you hourly?", what is your answer?

$130 per hour, five hours minimum. Here's the ADV. (Social work.)

As an RR, if a client asks you, "I just want a financial plan and then manage the investments myself, can you do that?", what do you say?

Two thousand buck per year minimum, or more, here's the ADV.

If a client asks an RR (at a captive firm), "how many other choices of insurance carriers can I use?", what do you say?

About a dozen, (independent) is that enough choice?

(Captive). For permanant insurance, only us. We are rated A+ at A.M. Best.

What is important to you about having a big selection, and why is that important?

Most independent agents settle in on a few carriers they like and understand.

If they work by commission, they could settle in on products that pay better.

Captive agents tend to get paid less on their own proprietary products. (They're captive.)

There are about a dozen outstanding insurance companies out there. Quality is important. Any insurance company has the right to raise the premiums on a class of insureds if they have an adverse experience...

If you are making a permanent, long term investment here, you'll want to choose wisely, for sure.

I have made my choices as an independent advisor around serving and doing what is best for my clients.

Here is the policy, here are the investment, here are the internal expenses.

Your RIA wants to charge you 1% for the cash you invest in this policy for the rest of your life ...

Lovin- I am speaking about fee based business in general not just RIAs. But since you asked, I can charge a client anyway I choose. We have a planning fee that can be amended based on whatever fee arrangement chosen.  This fee can be billed to the client however often I choose. So one time, hourly, even retainer.

TT - My point about conflict was for an established practice or a beginning practice. Either way I can see the underlying desire to fluctuate risk/return based on the practice's business plan. If a crook wants to be a crook there is no model designed to protect the client.

Absolutely.

Let's see, I give you $400,000 to manage and you charge 1%, at 10% you double it in 7.2 years (good luck to all), okay, your fees go from $4,000 to $8,000.

If we throw it in a balanced index fund at 2.75% one time load, and try to double the money at ten years at 7.2% (optimistic)?

Uh, so you're going to beat the heck out of a balanced fund, right Mr. RIA?

Or am I just paying for advice. Tell you what, let's break that out separately, just to avoid any apparent conflict of interest.

No wonder the public is confused. Just waiting until you start seeing more stories about small RIA litigation  in the newspapers. (Bound to happen, I'm sorry to say.)

The RIA  pimping is sad. I don't have to have a series 65 or 66 to be ethical!!! I have a 7and 66. I explain how I can be compensated and let the client choose. The RIA mantra that "we are pure and only have the clients best interest at heart"is a joke. Why does every wirehouse want their reps to do fee based only?????? MUH-NEY to the firm. Same for the RIA, 100,000,000 AUM at 1 - 1.5% and a 90% payout... you're right... making 10$ a bond on a bond ladder is the "EVIL" way of doing business.

Thank you.

Well, it's time to fight back.

Oh wait a minute, you have the editor of the RR forum trying to be things to all people - does anyone in this country stand for anything honest anymore?

Follow the money.

" I'm lovindaindy it. "

If we are not humbled by all the BS ...

How about we form a  "dead know-its society " ?

Nah, just follow the money. I have to look into RIA myself, let's see, is that about being moral or about getting paid?

Let's see, stand alone RIA, with a state insurance licenses and fixed subaccounts only, resisting the temptation to tell the lies about commissions...

But wait, if I make that state insurance license a low cost broker dealer affiliation, I can do commission business, so what if nobody ever heard of XYX b/d...

But mainly I'll just steer people into wrap a 1%, which is the moral thing to do.

[quote=tenthtee]

An RIA can do anything an RR can do. 

An RR can do anything an RIA can do.

Not true.  See below.

Want to charge a fixed fee on a transaction?  Fine disclose it.

Most charge 1% or more per year on AUM. Period.

Most is not all.  Flexibility is standard with RIAs.  I have seen as low as .25% (Rick Ferri) to as high as 3%.  I have also see where people will charge a fixed fee on fixed income business.  So it doens't matter what "most" do.  It matters what is possible and what even one person does.

Want to sell insurance?  Fine, have your own insurance shop.  You'll have more choices that your RR friends.

Not independent RRs. Don't want to sell insurance? Don't bother to have your own insurance shop, and have a bias toward AUM and collecting 1% for life.

Way more choices.  There is no bias.  If you can do both, why wouldn't you do both?  Leaving money on the table.

Want to charge a flat fee?  Do that.

Most do. What they don't charge is a commission, which is fixed and one time.

Do you have empirical evidence for this, or is this just b/d propaganda?  If you have evidence, let's see it.

Want to charge % of AUM?  You can do that too.

Yep. Favorite thing. For life.

Want to charge a retainer and bill against it hourly?  Go for it.

Easier just to wrap it all in 1.5%. Seriously, what % of your fees are fixed and one-time?

In my case, precisely one-half of my income is hourly or a flat fee.

Charge hourly?  Sure

So can I.

Up to how much.?  My guess is there is a limitation.  Do you place limits on the amount of work you will do for a client?

Charge per type of work?  Sure

Yep, we can do that. I'm not really an expert in insurance, because I don't sell the products, but I could sit around and do that hourly, except I'd really rather just manage your assets and let the insurance guy do the insurance. Of course, I don't really believe in insurance...

Really?  Can you charge for business valuations?  Taxes?  Specialized planning?

So, as an RR, if a clients asks, "Can I just pay you hourly?", what is your answer?

$130 per hour, five hours minimum. Here's the ADV. (Social work.)

Once again, what's the max?

As an RR, if a client asks you, "I just want a financial plan and then manage the investments myself, can you do that?", what do you say?

Two thousand buck per year minimum, or more, here's the ADV.

If a client asks an RR (at a captive firm), "how many other choices of insurance carriers can I use?", what do you say?

About a dozen, (independent) is that enough choice?

No it's not.

(Captive). For permanant insurance, only us. We are rated A+ at A.M. Best.

What is important to you about having a big selection, and why is that important?

Most independent agents settle in on a few carriers they like and understand.

If they work by commission, they could settle in on products that pay better.

Captive agents tend to get paid less on their own proprietary products. (They're captive.)

There are about a dozen outstanding insurance companies out there. Quality is important. Any insurance company has the right to raise the premiums on a class of insureds if they have an adverse experience...

If you are making a permanent, long term investment here, you'll want to choose wisely, for sure.

I have made my choices as an independent advisor around serving and doing what is best for my clients.

Here is the policy, here are the investment, here are the internal expenses.

Your RIA wants to charge you 1% for the cash you invest in this policy for the rest of your life ...

[/quote]

So basically you sell against RIA's dishonestly, because unless you've read their ADV, you actually have NO idea how they will charge.  Even then, you still don't.  Example:  My ADV clearly states all of the ways I can charge, offering choice to the client.

Don't pretend as an RR that you don't have any conflicts or that those fifteen insurance carriers don't pay commissions that are higher than some others that may actually be rated just as well and have a better product.

Seriously, get off of your high horse.  You do NOT have the flexibility that an RIA has.  Period.  There is not a single reason to be an RR in this day and age.

Also, no one is saying that you aren't ethical simply because you are an RR (ok, people are saying it, but I'm not).  I'm just saying, why continue to pimp for a B/D, when you can REALLY work for yourself.  Oh, that's right, you can "fire" your B/D any time you want.  Riiiiiiight.

And don't think that you can do things an RIA can't, because, that's right - you can't.

"Seriously, get off of your high horse.  You do NOT have the flexibility that an RIA has.  Period.  There is not a single reason to be an RR in this day and age."

Wow. CRAZY! Really? Every investor in the world wants to pay for a plan, or pay by the hour, or pay an AUM fee... Really?

 I was an INDY insurance guy for 15 years. I was contracted with dozens of companies. Now, thru my general agents, I have access to dozens of insurance carriers. The only difference is my payout for these same companies is a lot LESS as a RR. However, thru my B/D, each company has the same payout as the other. Where is the conflict. My annuity carriers have the same exact payout thru our system. Where is the conflict? I can't make more off one than the other.

I have nothing against anyone concerning how the build their practice (as long as it is ethical). The "High Horse" comment was funny. The only people I see acting that way are the RIA only crowd. Commissions are revenue. Fees are revenue. Both give compensation to the person who "SOLD" it to the client. Yes. You SELL your advice.

What is different about the ADV you hand your client and the one that the 30,000 "REPS" that work for wires hand their clients? Do they both not outline how the advisor can be compensated? Does the client have the choice to say no?  So what do you say when the client says, " I don't need your asset allocation model, or plan, or advice. I have all that info online and I just want you to execute my trades for me... for a commission." Do you say, "No thanks. I am pure and I will not lower myself to be a salesman. Commissions are the "DEVIL". I only work for fees. So, here is what we will do. I will charge you a FEE for the transactions."  Client says, Fees are compensation and commissions are compensation...what's the difference?

"I'm just saying, why continue to pimp for a B/D, when you can REALLY work for yourself."

Here it is. This is the meat of it all. Bottom line is that there have been thousands of RR become RIAs for one reason... money. They were ethical with their clients before and they are today. Now they just get ALL the commission, ER, I mean FEES. And, January 1st they now exactly how much money they are making for the year. The only difference for my clients if i became an RIA is... nothing. However, I would make more revenue off of them.

Lovindaindy, I am convinced that you are 100% concerned about the well being of your clients. I am sure that you have a successful practice. I am not saying you are doing this, but RIAs have spoken the virtues of "A Client's best interest is the only important thing", and then turn around and brag about how their "System" allows them to make more money.