Vick signs with Eagles
[quote=Ron 14]Brian Urlacher has a Super Bowl appearance, 3 All Pros, 1 Defensive Player of Year and 5+ Pro bowls. I am a Bears fan and this guy has no business even walking through the doors of the HOF as a visitor.In my opinion everything has to be looked at: situation, stats, pro bowls, playoffs, all pros etc. There is no clear cut definition. I think the pro bowls and all pros are the least valuable because the moronic media is making those picks. [/quote] Urlacher is in easily. He has been all-pro 4 times and has been in the pro-bowl 6 times. I agree that everything needs to be considered. However, the pro-bowl and all-pro teams has already taken into account most of that information except the post-season. Your "moronic media" quote is moronic simply because this same moronic media is the one choosing the Hall of Fame entrants. I'm not saying that someone should automatically be in because of these things. It's more along the lines of baseball (pre-steroid era) where certain stats would guarantee entrance. It's awfully hard for someone (Urlacher) to be voted as one of the two best players at his position for 4 different years and not be considered an all-time great. Here's a challenge for you if you don't think that pro-bowls and all-pro are that important. Name one player in the HOF who did not make the pro-bowl at least 5 times or was named to one all-pro team. (Obviously, I am talking about guys who are there because of their on the field accomplishments.) How about naming one guy who made the pro-bowl 5 times and was named to one all-pro team and isn't in the hall? My guess is that nobody can answer this question. I assume that there are a couple people out there who don't fit the category.
Nobody has been all-pro 4 times and not made the hall. He's going to have to do something very bad as a person to not get in.
So Urlacher is HOF ? no way
You can't use "All-Pro" and "only" in the same sentence. Becoming "All-Pro" one time is a major accomplishment. My guess is that every single player who has become All-pro once with a bunch of Pro-bowls is in the HOF. The All-Pro quarterback is the very best quarterback in the world for that one season. To get to the top of one's profession even one time is a major accomplishment. [/quote] You are nuts. Edgerrin James, Jerome Bettis, Zach Thomas, Randall Cunningham, Andre Rison, Herman Moore, Mark Carrier, Leroy Butler all fall into this category. None of them are HOF.
[quote=Ron 14]Brady is clearly in. He has been a top 3 QB for 6/7 yrs and only 1 All Pro. I am not going to make my decisions based on All Pro numbers.
Keep in mind that my criteria is 5 pro-bowls and 1 all-pro.Cunningham, James, Moore, Carrier, and Butler don't fit the criteria. They have all only made 3 or 4 Pro-bowls. Bettis and Thomas will both make the hall. Neither is eligible, so of course, they aren't in. Bettis has 6 pro-bowls and 2 all-pro seasons. Thomas has 7 pro-bowls and 5 all-pro seasons. That leaves good ole Andre Rison. He was in 5 pro-bowls and was all pro once. With a bad reputation and no post season exploits, he won't get in. Congratulations. You have found one of the exceptions. I'm sure that there are more, but not too many.
I don’t think we are that far apart in terms of being on the same page. I don’t know why exactly, but Bettis, Urlacher, and Thomas don’t “feel” like HOF material to me. I just think sometimes real real good players get in when it should be reserved for great.
Bettis being joined with Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith ? Urlacher and Thomas alongside Ray Lewis ? Just doesn't feel right. IMHO.
Ron, the NFL has been in existence for 75+ years. Guys like Sanders, Smith, and Lewis, are people who would get consideration for “Greatest of all time” at their position. The HOF goes beyond this. It is reserved for the top 4-7 people who are eligible in a given year.Nobody is trying to say that Urlacher/Thomas is in a Ray Lewis league. However, if you were to look at the group of linebackers that made all-pro/pro-bowl a comparable number of times with Urlacher/Thomas, it's hard to not be impressed. By the way, don't under rate Bettis. Because of numbers, he obviously isn't in a Sanders/Smith class. However, if my goal was to put together a team to win a Super Bowl, I'd go with Bettis over Sanders any day. Sanders, I believe, is the all-time leader in runs for losses. To win football games, you need to give the ball on short yardage to a guy who will always go forward. His season in 2004 speaks volumes about the guy. He was told that he would no longer start. He didn't complain. He started the year with just 5 carries in the first game and gained 5 yards and had 3 touchdowns. Having him able to always go forward took lots of the pressure off of Big Ben and allowed that team to go 15-1. He only averaged a shade over 3 yards a carry, but dang, if he didn't always go forward and get every necessary first down. He may have had the worst stats ever for a Pro-bowl running back, but it was mightily deserved. My point? I don't know. Maybe, simply, that it's not just about stats.
I think you need to be in the top 3 or 4 of your generation and to me Bettis isn't there.
Ron, don’t take this information to the bank, but during Bettis’s playing career, there was only one running back who made more more pro-bowls or was all-pro more. (Marshall Faulk) So, if we look at the NFL simply through the vision of that 13 year period, Bettis is the number 2 back in the game.
I put Sanders, Smith, Faulk, Terrell Davis, Curtis Martin above him in that generation.
It’s tough to determine “generations”, but, anyway, I’d agree with the first three, but not Davis and Martin.Davis was a great back for 3 years. Martin was primarily a very good back for a bunch of years. Bettis had 1 fewer all-pro season than Davis (3 to 2), but twice as many pro-bowl seasons (6-3). Bettis was all-pro more times than Martin (2-1) and had more pro-bowl seasons (6-5). Obviously, I am cherry picking my years with Bettis by only using the years that he was in the league. That being said if we take any running back and have them be in the top 2 (as measured by Pro-Bowls) for the years that cover their career, every one of them is in the HOF. Davis is an interesting case. He was all-pro for three years, but only had 4 seasons of gaining more than 750 yards.