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May 6, 2007 1:04 pm

[quote=AllREIT] [quote=mikebutler222]

[quote=ymh_ymh_ymh]

They don't consume hot beverages with caffeine or cold ones with alcohol. [/quote]

Oh, well, I didn't know that. Obviously that's a reason to never vote for one....

[/quote]

Anyone who won't drink hot caffinated beverages nor cold alcoholic beverages (thus limiting themselves to iced cola's and hot toddy's) doesn't have what it takes to be president.
[/quote]

Now there's some interesting criteria....

May 6, 2007 1:13 pm

[quote=Starka] 

Mike, the fallacy of your entire contention is that you can interpret things any way that you like...it doesn't change what it says. "The Bible as read by many Christians" is a meaningless statement. [/quote]

Really? You can't? There's 100% agreement? You'd never know that by the many, many wars fought over just that sort of interpretation issue....

[quote=Starka]  The Christian Bible IS the basis of our government, whether you like it or not. Again, a fallacious argument. [/quote]

sigh......it simply is not.

I'm really not interested in a religious debate with you. The fact is there are many sections of the Bible that are either flatly ignored by different denominations, the dietary rules, for example or interpreted differently. This is why some Christians make and issue of Mary being a virgin, or ask for celibacy from the clergy or will or will not allow homosexuals to serve in their clergy. For you to ignore the fact that Christianity is not a monolith and to suggest that Islam IS just inconsistent and illogical.

May 6, 2007 1:16 pm

[quote=AllREIT]
As for Bush, he suffers from a bad case of firehouse syndrome. I.e if you sit around talking all day with the same people who pretty much think as you do, you can start believing some pretty strange things. [/quote]

ROFLMAO, like that's unique to this administration.....

May 6, 2007 1:20 pm

[quote=Starka] [quote=Ashland] From the King James Bible:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&by te=4 07964

Leviticus 20:9
[9] For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put
to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon
him.

Deuteronomy 7:2
[2] And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou
shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them;
thou shalt make no
covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

Or the justification for slavery:
Genesis 9:24-27
24] And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had
done unto him.
[25] And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be
unto his brethren.
[26] And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be
his servant.
[27] God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem;
and Canaan shall be his servant.

Noah got drunk and got pissed at one of his kids and doomed his
grandson to be a 'servant of servants'.

These kinds of bible quotes can continue for as long as horrible quotes
can continue from the Koran. No one wishes to question or deconstruct
other people's faith - I am sure. You get value and peace from being a
Christian. I get value and peace from being a Muslim.

Christianity is followed by 33% of all people in the world & that
percentage has stayed stable in the last decades. Islam is followed by
21% of people in the world is amongst the fastest growing religions.
Islam may overtake Christianity as the world's largest religion as early as
the 2020's.[/quote]

Haver you heard of the New Testament, Ashland? Christ is the New
Covenant. We are commanded, among other things, to love our brothers
as ourselves, and to hate the sin but love the sinner. The path from Old
to New Testament is considered to be an advancement of faith, embodied
in Christ Jesus, who while personally present here on earth, gave us the
new rules to live by.[/quote]

Just for the sake of argument, let's say you're correct. Let's further assume there aren't any examples like the above in the New Testament. Those Old Testament rules appear in the text Jews use. Wouldn't that mean, by your rules, that you can't vote for a Jew, given your belief that the text can only be read one way and that someone from a faith thats source text makes such comments is bound to hold them?

May 6, 2007 1:34 pm

Now, where did I say that?



You have a penchant for strawman arguments, Mike.

May 7, 2007 12:05 pm

[quote=Starka]Now, where did I say that?

You have a penchant for strawman arguments, Mike.[/quote]

I assume by "where did I say that" you're referring to how you wouldn't vote for a Muslim because Islam is inconsistent with a democratic form of government, based on a number of versus that you say have to be read in a specific fashion and which all Muslims hold as basic tenets of their faith.

Well, the above verses from the Old Testament sound like they’re equally incompatible. You tried to step around that by ignoring them and mentioning the New Testament in a prior post, as if the Old Testament verses don’t matter any longer. But the fact is they ARE the source text for Jews. Now, since you won’t allow for any reading of the Koran but the most extreme, it seems to me you’ll have to drop that standard when it comes to reading the Old Testament, or, to be consistent, you’d have to conclude that you can’t vote for an observant Jew, since his religious text holds those verses we’ve been discussing.

May 7, 2007 12:15 pm

As usual, your assumptions are incorrect Mike. That’s not what I was

referring to at all.



Please spend a little more time on reading comprehension, and less on

trying to twist meanings that aren’t what YOU want them to be.



Face it Mike, you’re outgunned. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

May 7, 2007 12:44 pm

[quote=Starka]As usual, your assumptions are incorrect Mike. That's not what I was referring to at all.

Please spend a little more time on reading comprehension, and less on
trying to twist meanings that aren't what YOU want them to be.

Face it Mike, you're outgunned. You don't know what you're talking about.[/quote]

Well, your insults are clear, even though you didn’t bother to note just where I was wrong.

You did say this, didn't you?

[quote=Starka] Ah, I do see an obvious problem. The Bible does not, in fact, call for the destuction or subjugation of anyone, either implied or explicitly. The Koran does. [/quote]

Don't the Bible verses in the prior post undermine you claim here? If not, isn't it only because you ignore them because the New Testament allows you, by your readings, to ignore large parts of the Old Testament? What does that say of people who do use the Old Testament as their religious text?

Either your allowing them to have differing understandings (or simply ignore) text that runs contrary to our shared thinking (which is my position both on Bible verses and the Korans verses and which would be inconsistent on your part) or you have to be consistent and acknowledge you couldn’t vote for a candidate who is observant of that religion.

May 7, 2007 3:38 pm

 Quote!by Mike  Frankly, as an agnostic,

Mike, that pretty much sums it up.  

Most agnostics do not believe in anything. 

May 7, 2007 3:54 pm

[quote=Greenbacks]

 Quote!by Mike  Frankly, as an agnostic,

Mike, that pretty much sums it up.  

Most agnostics do not believe in anything. 

[/quote]

Better still, religious bigotry in stereo 

May 7, 2007 10:04 pm

Mike, when Jews start killing people as a matter of their faith, when the

Torah calls for holy jihad, when Chirstians start systematically crashing jets

into buildings occupied by innocents, when people of these faiths start

strapping explosives to their bodies and killing bystanders, when they start

loading trucks with dynamite and kill people as an act of perceived

obedience to God, then I’ll refuse to vote for them. When Jews start to kill

people systematically for disobedience to parents, then and only then will

your contentions have any validity. Until then, your arguments are hogwash.



Is that a plain enough answer for you?

May 7, 2007 10:30 pm

"Mike, when Jews start killing people as a matter of their faith,"

WHEN! When jews START killing people....

Did you really write that?

Ever heard of the Philistines? Ever heard of King David? "Saul has his hundreds, David has his Thousands!" Those were refernces to the number of Philistines they had personally killed!

Please!

Not to mention, aren't they tossing the PM there because of his attacks on Lebanon?

I have only so much ll against the jews, but please, lets not pretend that they don't have history.

May 7, 2007 10:34 pm

[quote=Whomitmayconcer]

"Mike, when Jews start killing people as a

matter of their faith,"



WHEN! When jews START killing people…



Did you really write that?



Ever heard of the Philistines? Ever heard of King David? “Saul has his

hundreds, David has his Thousands!” Those were refernces to the number

of Philistines they had personally killed!



Please!



Not to mention, aren’t they tossing the PM there because of his attacks

on Lebanon?



I have only so much ll against the jews, but please, lets not pretend

that they don’t have history.

[/quote]



As recently as 2001? Islam seems to be the only of the faiths under

discussion that hasn’t progressed over the last several thousand years.



You know, you and Mike are made for each other.
May 7, 2007 11:01 pm

[quote=Starka]Mike, when Jews start killing people as a matter of their faith, when the
Torah calls for holy jihad, when Chirstians start systematically crashing jets
into buildings occupied by innocents, when people of these faiths start
strapping explosives to their bodies and killing bystanders, when they start
loading trucks with dynamite and kill people as an act of perceived
obedience to God, then I'll refuse to vote for them. When Jews start to kill
people systematically for disobedience to parents, then and only then will
your contentions have any validity. Until then, your arguments are hogwash.

Is that a plain enough answer for you?[/quote]

Yep, very clear. In your mind all Muslims adhere to the extremist form of Islam.

May 7, 2007 11:04 pm

OK, I assume the proposed zero capital gains tax has been summarily dismissed; perhaps you can start a thread with a more appropriate title to reflect your discussion.

May 7, 2007 11:07 pm

[quote=mikebutler222]

[quote=Starka]Mike, when Jews start killing

people as a matter of their faith, when the Torah calls for holy jihad,

when Chirstians start systematically crashing jets into buildings occupied

by innocents, when people of these faiths start strapping explosives to

their bodies and killing bystanders, when they start loading trucks with

dynamite and kill people as an act of perceived obedience to God, then I’ll

refuse to vote for them. When Jews start to kill people systematically for

disobedience to parents, then and only then will your contentions have

any validity. Until then, your arguments are hogwash. Is that a plain

enough answer for you?[/quote]



Yep, very clear. In your mind all Muslims adhere to the extremist form

of Islam.

[/quote]



Once again, I must ask where did I say that?



You’ve got quite an imagination going on there, little guy!
May 7, 2007 11:15 pm

[quote=Cowboy93]OK, I assume the proposed zero capital gains tax has been summarily dismissed; perhaps you can start a thread with a more appropriate title to reflect your discussion.[/quote]

The funny thing is a new thread of "voting for a Muslim" was started, but we continue here....

As for me, I see no way a zero cap gains tax agenda passes into law.

May 7, 2007 11:16 pm

Now THAT I agree with.

May 7, 2007 11:17 pm

[quote=Starka] [quote=mikebutler222]

[quote=Starka]Mike, when Jews start killing
people as a matter of their faith, when the Torah calls for holy jihad,
when Chirstians start systematically crashing jets into buildings occupied
by innocents, when people of these faiths start strapping explosives to
their bodies and killing bystanders, when they start loading trucks with
dynamite and kill people as an act of perceived obedience to God, then I'll
refuse to vote for them. When Jews start to kill people systematically for
disobedience to parents, then and only then will your contentions have
any validity. Until then, your arguments are hogwash. Is that a plain
enough answer for you?[/quote]


Yep, very clear. In your mind all Muslims adhere to the extremist form
of Islam.

[/quote]

Once again, I must ask where did I say that?

You've got quite an imagination going on there, little guy![/quote]

Who was it that claimed "matter of faith" about flying planes into buildings and said he couldn't vote for a Muslim? If that isn't assuming that ALL Muslims adhere to what YOU define as the Muslim faith, what is?

May 7, 2007 11:21 pm

[quote=Starka] Islam seems to be the only of the faiths under
discussion that hasn't progressed over the last several thousand years.

[/quote]

Seems like a pretty broad brush to me. Tell me again how this isn't claiming all of Islam and all Muslims aren't part of this "hasn't progressed" contingent?

If not, why do you insist on being so definitive? Every other post you claim you aren’t speaking of all Muslims, and the next you talk, without even a hint of equivocation, of Islam or Muslims as a whole. Why can’t you bring yourself to say you would be willing to vote for a Muslim if he WASN’T one of these types?