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May 5, 2007 11:33 am

[quote=ymh_ymh_ymh]

They don't consume hot beverages with caffeine or cold ones with alcohol. [/quote]

Oh, well, I didn't know that. Obviously that's a reason to never vote for one....

May 5, 2007 11:36 am

[quote=mikebutler222]

[quote=Greenbacks]Would you vote for

some one if they where a Muslim?[/quote]





The only thing about voting for a Muslim that would give me pause

(and I’m not proud to say this) is that radical elements of that religion

mean us harm. If I’m sure this candidate isn’t part of that element and

doesn’t share any of the 15th Century beliefs of some of the rest of

Muslim, I could vote for them. Now, I’m unaware of any element of the

Mormon religion that aims to fly planes into buildings or stone women for

showing skin…



Do you have an approved list of religions to go along with your “I

couldn’t vote for” list?

[/quote]



I wouldn’t vote for a Muslim. I wouldn’t vote for a communist or a Neo-

Nazi, either. ALL three have a diferent belief system than mine, although

it could be said that not all communists or Neo-Nazis want to fly jetliners

into buildings.
May 5, 2007 12:04 pm

[quote=Starka] [quote=mikebutler222]

[quote=Greenbacks]Would you vote for
some one if they where a Muslim?[/quote]



The only thing about voting for a Muslim that would give me pause
(and I'm not proud to say this) is that radical elements of that religion
mean us harm. If I'm sure this candidate isn't part of that element and
doesn't share any of the 15th Century beliefs of some of the rest of
Muslim, I could vote for them. Now, I'm unaware of any element of the
Mormon religion that aims to fly planes into buildings or stone women for
showing skin..


Do you have an approved list of religions to go along with your "I
couldn't vote for" list?

[/quote]

I wouldn't vote for a Muslim. I wouldn't vote for a communist or a Neo-
Nazi, either. ALL three have a diferent belief system than mine, although
it could be said that not all communists or Neo-Nazis want to fly jetliners
into buildings.[/quote]

Nazis and Communists have views about government that are incompatible with democracy. That’s specifically how they define their ideologies. I doubt you can say that of all forms of Muslims, in fact, while I disagree with him on policy issues, we already have a Muslim serving in the US Congress, and I doubt you can reasonably call him the threat to democracy a Nazi or Communist represents.

May 5, 2007 12:13 pm

I doubt that you could say that a single communist in Congress would be a

threat either.



Mike, if we define a Muslim as one whose belief systm is centered on the

Koran, and the Koran does, in fact, call for the destruction or subjugation of

infidels and unbelievers, then we must assume that a Muslim on some level

is a threat to our way of life.

May 5, 2007 12:23 pm

[quote=Starka] I doubt that you could say that a single communist in Congress would be a threat either. [/quote]

It's not the "single" or multiple issue, it's what each ideology represents. Thus far your attempt to equate Communism/Nazism to all forms of Islam falls pretty flat.

[quote=Starka] Mike, if we define a Muslim as one whose belief system is centered on the Koran, and the Koran does, in fact, call for the destruction or subjugation of
infidels and unbelievers, then we must assume that a Muslim on some level
is a threat to our way of life.[/quote]

If we define Christian (or Jew) as one whose belief system is centered on the Bible, and the Bible does, in fact, call for the destruction or subjugation of women, homosexuals and non-believers, then we must assume that a Christian (or Jew) is a threat to our way of life.

See the obvious problem? You’re assuming the Koran (as I was assuming the Bible example) is read an believed in a specific manner and that no believer of that faith sees the teaching of the source document differently. Frankly, as an agnostic, there are elements of most every religion I could point to as a “threat” to our way of life, yet I assume the best of intentions of believers because we share so many other values. Disagree with him on policy issues all you like (and I certainly do) you can’t reasonably call anything about Keith Ellison's beliefs a “threat to our way of life”, and I have no doubt the same observation could be made of millions of other US Muslims.

Moreover, the attempt to equate Mormonism with the radical elements of Islam is just, well, to be polite, bizarre.

May 5, 2007 12:35 pm

Ah, I do see an obvious problem. The Bible does not, in fact, call for the

destuction or subjugation of anyone, either implied or explicitly. The Koran

does. It’s as explicit as the Communist Manifesto or Mein Kampf. The Bible,

which like it or not is the basis for our system of government, calls for

tolerance. Both Christianity and Judaism acknowledge that faith cannot

come at the point of a sword…the opposite is true of Islam.



And to your last point, I have never tried to equate Mormonism with Islam,

so yours are specious arguments at best.

May 5, 2007 2:17 pm

[quote=AllREIT]

[quote=Greenbacks]

But my main concern is he is a MORMON! Joseph

Smith tried to run for president and he was executed!

[/quote]



The bigger concern is that he is a MORON! George W Bush tried to run for

president and he was elected![/quote]



I’m a little confused by your comment here, Allreit.



What makes him a moron? The fact that he graduated Yale and got his

MBA from Harvard? How does your education stack up to that?



If you disagree with the man’s policies or his ethics and morality, by all

means, that your right. But please, it speaks volumes about your ability

to reason (or lack thereof) to simply call someone a moron because you

can’t argue with his/her reasoning.
May 5, 2007 6:34 pm

[quote=Starka]Ah, I do see an obvious problem. The Bible does not, in fact, call for the destuction or subjugation of anyone, either implied or explicitly. [/quote]

Actually, as read by many Christians, it does. Do we really need to go into detail about it? I’d rather not have a Bible class here, but if need be I‘m sure we can get the lines about the status of homosexuals and women out. I’m not anti-Christian by any stretch of the imagination, but there are vast parts of the Bible that go largely ignored by mainstream Christians as they’re incompatible with the liberal Western life we lead.

[quote=Starka] The Koran does. It's as explicit as the Communist Manifesto or Mein Kampf. [/quote]

Just as there are moderate Christians that reject or define elements of the Bible, there are Muslims that hold beliefs that are moderate and completely compatible with democracy. I gave you an example of a US Congressman that's Muslim, if you can name any positions he hold to the contrary, please spell them out. Again, dragging in the wholly incompatible with democracy Nazis and Communists makes zero sense.

[quote=Starka] The Bible, which like it or not is the basis for our system of government, … [?quote]

No, it clearly isn’t. While many of our founding fathers where Christian, there’s simply no honest way to claim a Biblical basis for our form of government.

[quote=Starka] …..calls for tolerance. Both Christianity and Judaism acknowledge that faith cannot come at the point of a sword...the opposite is true of Islam. [/quote]

You’re making a sweeping statement about Islam that just isn’t supported by the facts. Ask the members of the secular government of Turkey or of countries in the Middle East where Muslims and non-Muslims live side by side in peace. Those who refuse to admit there are moderate Muslims who are no risk to the rest of the world are no more helpful to an honest debate than those who claim there are no radical elements bent on forced conversion.

[quote=Starka] And to your last point, I have never tried to equate Mormonism with Islam, so yours are specious arguments at best.[/quote]

The commentary began with someone claiming he couldn’t vote for a Mormon. Muslims, Communists and Nazis were inserted along the way. In the confusion, I’m sorry if I’ve ascribed a view to you you don’t hold.

May 5, 2007 7:05 pm

I would not vote for a practicing Muslim and/or Mormon because the basic tenets of their faith are in direct conflict with the rights granted to all of us by the US Constitution. Ditto on Orthodox Jews who keep all 613 rules they're supposed to. A few of those rules are in direct conflict with the US Constitution.

I voted for a few practicing Catholics at state/local level. Ditto on Reform/Conservative Jews, Protestants, and agnostics. I never voted for someone who was a Wiccan and most likely never would. Ditto on an atheist (to my knowledge).

Have a nice weekend, one and all. Starka, thanks very much for the US Constitution lessons you have given, your time served with the US Navy, your honesty/candor. I too, considered my time in the military to be an honor for the most part rather than a duty.

FD: Ronald Reagan was and remains my favorite US President closely followed by Jimmy Carter. I was too young to recall if John F. Kennedy was really the legend everyone says he was.

Muslims can and do drink hot beverages with caffeine. They do not consume alcohol. Mormons are NOT supposed to consume alcohol and/or tobacco products. Cold beverages with caffeine are fine, hot ones are not (don't know why). I think Catholics can now eat meat on Friday. When I was a kid and a Catholic it was a big no no.

May 5, 2007 8:10 pm

[quote=Starka] [quote=AllREIT]

[quote=Greenbacks]

But my main concern is he is a MORMON! Joseph

Smith tried to run for president and he was executed!

[/quote]



The bigger concern is that he is a MORON! George W Bush tried to run for

president and he was elected![/quote]



I’m a little confused by your comment here, Allreit.



What makes him a moron? The fact that he graduated Yale and got his

MBA from Harvard? How does your education stack up to that?
[/quote]



Cornell Univ, with much better grades than GWB. So between the better school and better grades, he don’t have nothing on me.



As for Bush, he suffers from a bad case of firehouse syndrome. I.e if
you sit around talking all day with the same people who pretty much
think as you do, you can start believing some pretty strange things.



And that’s basicly been Bush’s problem this whole administration.
He has his set of cronies (Rove, Gonzales/Ashcroft, Miers, Cheney) and
talks with them and no one else all day. So he lives in a detached
bubble



So this leads to all sorts of classical cock-ups like Mike Brown at
FEMA, Nominating Harriet Meirs to the supreme court, the Dubai ports
deal etc etc.



And this is comming from a post 9/11 brass hat republican




May 5, 2007 8:12 pm

[quote=mikebutler222]

[quote=ymh_ymh_ymh]

They don't consume hot beverages with caffeine or cold ones with alcohol. [/quote]

Oh, well, I didn't know that. Obviously that's a reason to never vote for one....

[/quote]

Anyone who won't drink hot caffinated beverages nor cold alcoholic beverages (thus limiting themselves to iced cola's and hot toddy's) doesn't have what it takes to be president.
May 5, 2007 9:25 pm

[quote=AllREIT]

[quote=Greenbacks]

But my main concern is he is a MORMON! Joseph Smith tried to run for president and he was executed!

[/quote]



The bigger concern is that he is a MORON! George W Bush tried to run for president and he was elected![/

QUOTE]



May 5, 2007 9:31 pm

[quote=mikebutler222]

[quote=Starka]Ah, I do see an obvious

problem. The Bible does not, in fact, call for the destuction or subjugation

of anyone, either implied or explicitly. [/quote]



Actually, as read by many Christians, it does. Do we really need to go

into detail about it? I’d rather not have a Bible class here, but if need be

I‘m sure we can get the lines about the status of homosexuals and

women out. I’m not anti-Christian by any stretch of the imagination, but

there are vast parts of the Bible that go largely ignored by mainstream

Christians as they’re incompatible with the liberal Western life we lead. [/

P]

[quote=Starka] The Koran does. It’s as explicit as the Communist

Manifesto or Mein Kampf. [/quote]



Just as there are moderate Christians that reject or define elements of

the Bible, there are Muslims that hold beliefs that are moderate and

completely compatible with democracy. I gave you an example of a US

Congressman that’s Muslim, if you can name any positions he hold to the

contrary, please spell them out. Again, dragging in the wholly

incompatible with democracy Nazis and Communists makes zero sense.[/

P]

[quote=Starka] The Bible, which like it or not is the basis for our

system of government, … [?quote]



No, it clearly isn’t. While many of our founding fathers where Christian,

there’s simply no honest way to claim a Biblical basis for our form of

government.





[quote=Starka] ……calls for tolerance. Both Christianity and Judaism

acknowledge that faith cannot come at the point of a sword…the opposite

is true of Islam. [/quote]



You’re making a sweeping statement about Islam that just isn’t

supported by the facts. Ask the members of the secular government of

Turkey or of countries in the Middle East where Muslims and non-

Muslims live side by side in peace. Those who refuse to admit there are

moderate Muslims who are no risk to the rest of the world are no more

helpful to an honest debate than those who claim there are no radical

elements bent on forced conversion.







[quote=Starka] And to your last point, I have never tried to equate

Mormonism with Islam, so yours are specious arguments at best.[/

QUOTE]



The commentary began with someone claiming he couldn’t vote for a

Mormon. Muslims, Communists and Nazis were inserted along the way. In

the confusion, I’m sorry if I’ve ascribed a view to you you don’t hold.

[/

QUOTE]



Mike, the fallacy of your entire contention is that you can interpret things

any way that you like…it doesn’t change what it says. “The Bible as read

by many Christians” is a meaningless statement.



The Christian Bible IS the basis of our government, whether you like it or

not. Again, a fallacious argument.



As to Christians rejecting parts of the Bible…well that’s just foolish. The

Bible is an all or nothing document. You can’t just reject parts of the

Constitution and still consider yourself a good American, and the same

hold true (only more so) for Christians and the Bible. (Can’t you just see

someone saying, I only like 7 of the 10 Commandments, but I’m still a

good Christian!"?



Last but certainly not least, this thread started witth a comment about

doing away with certain taxes by Mitt Romney.

May 5, 2007 10:03 pm

[quote=AllREIT]

[quote=Starka] [quote=AllREIT]

[quote=Greenbacks]

But my main concern is he is a MORMON! Joseph

Smith tried to run for president and he was executed!

[/quote]



The bigger concern is that he is a MORON! George W Bush tried to run for

president and he was elected![/quote]



I’m a little confused by your comment here, Allreit.



What makes him a moron? The fact that he graduated Yale and got his

MBA from Harvard? How does your education stack up to that?

[/quote]



Cornell Univ, with much better grades than GWB. So between the better

school and better grades, he don’t have nothing on me.



As for Bush, he suffers from a bad case of firehouse syndrome. I.e if

you sit around talking all day with the same people who pretty much

think as you do, you can start believing some pretty strange things.



And that’s basicly been Bush’s problem

this whole administration.

He has his set of cronies (Rove, Gonzales/Ashcroft, Miers, Cheney) and

talks with them and no one else all day. So he lives in a detached

bubble



So this leads to all sorts of classical cock-ups like Mike Brown at

FEMA, Nominating Harriet Meirs to the supreme court, the Dubai ports

deal etc etc.



And this is comming from a post 9/11 brass hat republican





[/quote]



Cornell superior to Yale and Harvard??? LOL…With all due respect Allreit,

that’s simply not so, particularly in fields involving international studies.



As to your other contentions, it can be argued that ALL Presidents have

had their foibles. Bay of Pigs, Iran Contras, Hostage Crisis, etc. So by

your metrics, ALL Presidents are morons. (Hmmm…there might be

something to that after all!)
May 5, 2007 10:29 pm

From the King James Bible:

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4 07964



Leviticus 20:9

[9] For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.



Deuteronomy 7:2

[2] And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:



Or the justification for slavery:

Genesis 9:24-27

24] And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

[25] And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

[26] And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

[27] God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.



Noah got drunk and got pissed at one of his kids and doomed his grandson to be a ‘servant of servants’.



These kinds of bible quotes can continue for as long as horrible quotes can continue from the Koran. No one wishes to question or deconstruct other people’s faith - I am sure. You get value and peace from being a Christian. I get value and peace from being a Muslim.



Christianity is followed by 33% of all people in the world & that percentage has stayed stable in the last decades. Islam is followed by 21% of people in the world is amongst the fastest growing religions. Islam may overtake Christianity as the world’s largest religion as early as the 2020’s.

May 5, 2007 10:34 pm

[quote=Ashland] From the King James Bible:

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4 07964



Leviticus 20:9

[9] For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put

to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon

him.



Deuteronomy 7:2

[2] And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou

shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them;
thou shalt make no

covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:



Or the justification for slavery:

Genesis 9:24-27

24] And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had

done unto him.

[25] And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be

unto his brethren.

[26] And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be

his servant.

[27] God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem;

and Canaan shall be his servant.



Noah got drunk and got pissed at one of his kids and doomed his

grandson to be a ‘servant of servants’.



These kinds of bible quotes can continue for as long as horrible quotes

can continue from the Koran. No one wishes to question or deconstruct

other people’s faith - I am sure. You get value and peace from being a

Christian. I get value and peace from being a Muslim.



Christianity is followed by 33% of all people in the world & that

percentage has stayed stable in the last decades. Islam is followed by

21% of people in the world is amongst the fastest growing religions.

Islam may overtake Christianity as the world’s largest religion as early as

the 2020’s.[/quote]



Haver you heard of the New Testament, Ashland? Christ is the New

Covenant. We are commanded, among other things, to love our brothers

as ourselves, and to hate the sin but love the sinner. The path from Old

to New Testament is considered to be an advancement of faith, embodied

in Christ Jesus, who while personally present here on earth, gave us the

new rules to live by.

May 5, 2007 11:37 pm

[quote=Starka]


Cornell superior to Yale and Harvard??? LOL…With all due respect Allreit,

that’s simply not so, particularly in fields involving international studies.

[/quote]



It is lonely at the top, don’t be a hater.

May 5, 2007 11:41 pm

[quote=AllREIT]

[quote=Starka]

Cornell superior to Yale and Harvard??? LOL…With all due respect Allreit,

that’s simply not so, particularly in fields involving international studies.





[/quote]



It is lonely at the top, don’t be a hater.

[/quote]



How do you know? (It really IS lonely at the top, though. C’mon up and join

me in a Dos Equis for Cinqo de Mayo!)

May 6, 2007 4:22 am

[quote=AllREIT]


And this is comming from a post 9/11 brass hat republican





[/quote]

Could someone tell me what the heck this means?

May 6, 2007 10:44 am

AllREIT, Starka, Ashland, Joe et all:

1. Penn's my favorite Ivy League school. It's the east coast version of USC.

2. David Bergers is my favorite Yalie.

3. Roel Campos is my favorite Harvard type.

4. I will stick to stocks over ponies going forward.

Never, ever, chase a mint julep with a couple of Coronas. I am still feeling the pain from mixing Derby Day with Cinco de Mayo!

Sidebar to Ashland: I am a proponent of moderate religion of any kind. I wish moderate Muslims would lean on their minority extremist peers more. Moderate Jews do yank their less moderate peers' chains all the time. So do moderate Catholics. Moderate Mormons started doing that last year when the Feds came down hard on polygamist cults.

There have been far too many wars waged in the name of Allah, Jesus, and/or Hashem. It's time for that crap to stop one of these days.

I wish one and all a peaceful day on this message board.