[quote=mranonymous2u]

Incorrect quotes.

LOL

Good one Starka!

OK, I’m going to be letting this one go too. There obviously isn’t

anyone here who has the ability to take the other side on this issue.

But thanks for playing.

Mr. A

[quote=Pandale]What's with this "sweetiepie" and "honeybunch" stuff.  Is there something going on here I'm not aware of?[/quote]

It is because I'm a female.   Mr. A can't hold together a coherent argument or stick to the topic. So he attempts to marginalize me by calling me ridiculous diminutive nicknames instead of addressing the issues.  I'm supposed to realize my female inferiority to his big masculine superiority  ......not

Typical of that type of mindset.  The same tactics they use against Clarence Thomas and Condi Rice who happen to be conservative blacks and who have "gone off the reservation" so to speak.  If you can't intellectually compete, then call names like Uncle Tom and draw ugly cartoons of black house slaves. 

I enjoy a good debate as much as the next person. In fact I was on the debating team in college.  However, trying to hold an intelligent conversation with someone who only seems to think and speak in pre-scripted soundbites is a waste of time and pixels.

[quote=mranonymous2u]"
Bad example in that many pyros ARE firemen in the first place! FACT

 I was/am against this war and made many sour faces when I ridiculed
Colin Powell's idea of Mobile Germ Warfare factories, among other
falacies) FACT

In Video, Hussein Uses Slingshots and Bows to Rally Iraqis for War
(nytimes.com) FACT

And yet, at this point there is NOTHING we can do short of adding
200,000 pairs of boot to the effort. OPINION

We need to institute a draft,...OPINION

 ...we need to turn major control of this face saving effort to the... OPINION 

We need to know that we are now in a humanitarian struggle to save the lives of hundreds of thousands(if not millions) of Iraqui's that we put in the path of danger.... FACT

 
This is a MAJOR disaster of OUR making. FACT

We made the mess, now we have to clean it up. OPINION

The only way to do that is to flood the country with
peacemakers carrying heavy arms. I think Bush is being petulant so as to goad the Congress into impeaching him. He'd rather go down in martyrdom than Dummiedom! OPINIONS
[/quote]

Highlighteds added later for clarity above and below.

[quote=mranonymous2u]

I think it is Bush's presence that pushed the program forward, so, I guess you are correct in a way....OPINION

As far as ANY plan for Iraq, I'm pretty sure that the majority of people with any opinion AT ALL in the entire world will say that the plan must start with Bush NOT being part of it....OPINION

They have been MASSIVELY incompetent so far....FACT

[/quote]

[quote=mranonymous2u]

Yeah! I think I'm right and so do all my friends so who cares that billions of people are telling me I'm wrong. What do they know?... RHETORICAL STATEMENT/QUESTION<?:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O />

Pretty much what you described is what is known as a LAW. ...FACT

There are laws against certain behaviors which the community has decided are assholian, thus, they forbid it, whether your wife likes it or not....FACT

"Our best interests" We have long since ceded that moral construct. We gave away our right to care only about OUR best interests in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><?:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 />Iraq....OPINION

Our responsibility now is to make sure that the colossal clusterf$@* that we caused doesn't wind up with the murdering of millions of Iraqi's in the power void that we would leave there.... OPINION  

[/quote]

[quote=mranonymous2u]

At our rate of spending there, "we" won't be anyone's ally. "We" will be living in a third world country in 20 or 30 years....FACT but I'll give it to ya.

[/quote]

[quote=mranonymous2u]

I can't believe that the pretzledent would lie to me, and that Dick Cheney seems like such an honest fellow....LIE

For sure I knew that this was going to be a long term commitment and I said so many times at the time (which was, in my opinion, one really good reason not to rush into the commitment)....FACT

 I received the brickbats of "conservative Americans" for my trouble....FACT

Advisors who publicly averred what you are saying now were fired for saying so. ... FACT

I don't know what your position was then, but I agree with your assessment now....OPINION

The fact is that we are there....FACT

 We could well have been "There" by turning Afghanistan into a US Army base ...FACT

and it would have been much better for all parties involved... OPINION

 (especially when you consider that the world's biggest natural gas pocket is beneath the Caspian sea,...FACT

 this field will eventually fuel India and China, so being "protectorate" of that middle chunk of the pipeline would have been strategically smarter). ...OPINION

[/quote]

[quote=mranonymous2u]

No, my contention is that, we as Americans should not expect this president to come up with any better plans than the plans he gave the Presidential Medal of Freedom out to George Tennet, Paul Bremer and General Tommy Franks (ret) for.... OPINION

I didn't say they have a legal say in our matters,...FACT

 I'm saying that a majority of people on this planet (many of whom are favorably disposed to the <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />USA) think that he has set into motion actions that are globally disastrous. ...FACT

Look, first of all there are such things as international laws....FACT

 The problem with most of them is the lack of enforcement authority....FACT

But the rule of international law is an established precedent...FACT

 If the international law were enforced, this administration would be in the Hague right now facing charges....FACT

Secondly, it's not my fault if you used a poor analogy....FACT

 What you described was essentially what a law is....FACT

I just pointed that out to you FYI. I didn't take the analogy seriously because all it did was show your lack of understanding. We'll just let this stand, it's factual, but ...

Because we put millions of people in the path of danger....FACT

Culpability is a well established rule of law....FACT

If you cause some one to come to harm, you are as guilty as the perpetrator. Leaving those people now is murder....FACT

We, as a people are against murder, murdering and the murderers. Our only recourse at this juncture is to try our hardest to prevent this from happening....OPINION

Honeybunch, I'm not advocating leaving Iraq...FACT

 I'm just saying that expecting  George "Who Ever Would'a Thought That?" Bush's administration to lead us to any sort of victory anywhere is insanity....OPINION

This administration is completely inept....OPINION borne out by a mulitiude of FACTS

I'm just saying that Bush needs to be fired! At least he needs to be relieved of this duty (Commander in Chief of American forces in Iraq)....OPINION

[/quote]

[quote=mranonymous2u]

The difference is that the Marshall plan was a rebuilding effort, and this is a destruction effort....FACT

The difference is that George Marshall and Harry Truman were at the top of that plan and they didn't make their presidential cabinet out of war profiteers....FACT

[/quote]

[quote=mranonymous2u]

Yes, let's rebuild Iraq. But before we can do that we have to find a way to stop having between 400-1,000 acts of violence per DAY....FACT

 People don't give up when there are foreign interests trying to wrest control of their country. ...FACT

How many times did the Alsace-Lorraine pass back and forth between Germany and France? It got to the point where the people weren't even sure what nationality they were....FACT

Why do you think the Machiavelli wrote the pamphlet The Prince which is seen as the "bible" of politics? The fact was that he wrote it trying to placate the conquering Prince so that he would not kill him (which he did anyway) and the pamphlet is about how to control the conquered...FACT

 (essentially, you act like Saddam)....FACT

Why do you think we didn't prevail in Viet Nam? (Not because we didn't stay as the President said, which pisses in the eye of every Viet Nam Vet, that the draft dodging frat boy said that if we tried harder we'd have won in Viet Nam!) ...FACT

Why are we The United States? Why is India, India? Why is South Africa integrated? Why is the Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics a map makers' wet dream? Because it is nigh on impossible to sit on top of an indigenous population....

That's why there are genocides....FACT

The only way to make this stop is to prove to the Iraqi people that the militaries' mission is to restore peace to this country. ...OPINION

The USA supported Saddam and provided him with the means to gas his own people....FACT

The United States supplied arms to both sides in a war with Iran that killed millions of men on both sides...FACT  The United States supported the dictator of Iran for years as he slaughtered hundreds of thousands of his own people... FACT

The United States gave Saddam a tacit approval to invade Kuwait and then changed their mind and invaded. MOOT FACT

The United States promised protection for all of the troops of Iraqi front liners and then sent them home, shut down their country with sanctions and turned their backs as Saddam's Republican Guard extracted vengeance on those that deserted....FACT

 The United States invaded their country with a blitzkrieg that they called "Shock and Awe" killing thousands of Iraqi citizens as "collateral damage". ...FACT

The United States then let looters run the streets and destroy what little business was left for them....FACT

 The United States had no post war plan that allowed for criminal enterprises to spring up like mushrooms in a cow pasture after a rain,...FACT

 the solution for getting water to the population was to let them sell it to each other, that way there'd be a profit driven distribution system....FACT

The United States, that can't even train the police and keep them from getting blown up by the score....FACT

 I don't think there is ANY way that they are going to trust Bush. Or any plan that he puts forth....OPINION

 If you don't have trust you won't have an end to the agitation....OPINION

 As a result you will not be in a rebuilding mode...FACT

Now put on top of this the fact that we are not the only one's who have our eye on the prize....FACT

 Whoever is sitting in the throne when the music stops gets all of the money that falls to the ground....FACT

 This administration has literally LOST literally 10s of Billions of dollars in US Currency in Iraq. ...FACT

 And extra special, you run the oil!...FACT

 For a prize like that, very smart men will pay very many dollars for a very long time to win....FACT

 Thomas Jefferson said "Always expect every nation to act in it's own self interest."...FACT

This is the richest contest of ALL TIME...OPINION

 Ironically, the longer it goes on the richer the pot gets....FACT

If this were any other country doing what we are doing, we'd be pushing our man so hard our hands would be coming through his chest! OPINION

Don't think for a second that Germany isn't pushing their man forward. Japan has a favorite in the race. Sweden has made contacts. China would LOVE to have exclusive rights to all that oil....OPINIONS

Comparing the Marshall plan to this mess at this juncture is ridiculous....OPINION

[/quote]

[quote=mranonymous2u]

Further, the Marshall Plan did not remain at it's peak spending level for anything near 20-30 years ...FACT

 as such your economic comparison is seriously, fatally flawed....FACT

[/quote]

[quote=mranonymous2u]

The initial claim was in regards to the economics of our involvement in Iraq. ...FACT

Perhaps if you stopped pretending to know what you are talking about, you'd remember which of your inanities...OPINION

... you're avoiding backing up...FACT

I never once mentioned Harry S Truman before you brought up the Marshall Plan. As such you could not have been responding to anything I had said about him....FACT

[/quote]

Let's see... 58 facts vs 25 opinions (lots rhetorical statements omitted). And you have posted how many facts? And of those how many were about the topic as opposed to your "factual opinion" of me and liberals in general?

You're shooting blanks palie.

But thanks for playing. Looking forward to a time when we'll go at it again. Or maybe the day we team up and bust somebody else's chops.

Happyness,

Mr. A

" So he attempts to marginalize me by calling me ridiculous diminutive nicknames instead of addressing the issues.  I'm supposed to realize my female inferiority to his big masculine superiority  ......not "

Come on, that's not true. Why would I expect anyone who calls herself Babbling Looney to fold just because I call her sweetiepie?

You take this stuff too seriously. You really oughtn't.

What's really funny BL is that you and I are on the same side of this issue. I'm for increasing the troop levels (and maybe a little armor and some protected Humvees instead of treating the reserves like cannon fodder).

Even though I'm against the leadership that this president has displayed, I do not think we CAN leave Iraq. I don't expect the president's leadership to get any better.

Mr. A

[quote=babbling looney]

[quote=Pandale]What's with this "sweetiepie" and "honeybunch" stuff.  Is there something going on here I'm not aware of?[/quote]

It is because I'm a female.   Mr. A can't hold together a coherent argument or stick to the topic. So he attempts to marginalize me by calling me ridiculous diminutive nicknames instead of addressing the issues.  I'm supposed to realize my female inferiority to his big masculine superiority  ......not [/quote]

True. BL. It's obviously an insecurity issue, probably exacerbated by getting his hind-end handed to him by a woman.

Sorry, Mr. A…many of your “facts” are merely opinion.  I’ll give you that some of your “facts” are widely-held opinions, but they are still…just opinions.

Which ones?

Mr. A

Since there are so many, how about an example?

They have been MASSIVELY incompetent so far....FACT

That's an opinion.  Just because there are a lot of people that feel that way does not make it a fact.  I feel that mistakes have been made, but massively incompetent?  Definitely an opinion.

There are plenty more like that, but I have Christmas cards to sign...

What part don't you like? "Massively"?

I'll give it to you.

Incompetent?

Sorry, no can do.

Mr. A

“We need to know that we are now in a humanitarian struggle to save the

lives of hundreds of thousands(if not millions) of Iraqui’s that we put in

the path of danger… FACT





This is a MAJOR disaster of OUR making. FACT



This administration is completely inept…OPINION borne out by a

mulitiude of FACTS



They have been MASSIVELY incompetent so far…FACT



If the international law were enforced, this administration would be in the

Hague right now facing charges…FACT



Why do you think we didn’t prevail in Viet Nam? (Not because we didn’t

stay as the President said, which pisses in the eye of every Viet Nam Vet,

that the draft dodging frat boy said that if we tried harder we’d have won

in Viet Nam!) …FACT



The difference is that the Marshall plan was a rebuilding effort, and this is

a destruction effort…FACT”

***********************************************************



Mr A, none of the above cited (and in fact many more of your quotes) are

"FACTS". I have no doubt that you believe these to be true, but no matter

how stongly you believe, they are not necessarily true.

"This administration is completely inept....OPINION borne out by a
mulitiude of FACTS "

I told you this one was an Opinion... But reading comprehension being what it is...

"Why do you think we didn't prevail in Viet Nam? (Not because we didn't stay as the President said, which pisses in the eye of every Viet Nam Vet, that the draft dodging frat boy said that if we tried harder we'd have won in Viet Nam!) ...FACT "

But the president DID say that (so it is a FACT) and it is a Piss in the eye of the Viet Nam Vets that were in Viet Nam while Bush WAS being a draft dodging Frat Boy. FACT I'm sorry if you don't like the reality, but reality bites sometimes.

"The difference is that the Marshall plan was a rebuilding effort, and this is a destruction effort....FACT"

The Marshall Plan was a rebuilding effort, FACT.

We are still trying to overcome the insurgency. FACT

We are at WAR, the president keeps saying so, war is an act of destruction. FACT, FACT, FACT.

You can say they're not facts until your lips fall off, it doesn't change anything.

Mr. A

You see, Mr A?



You have not addressed one single point I’ve made. As I said before, I don’t

doubt your sincerity…merely your intellect. You passion on this topic has

clearly clouded your ability to distinguish fact from fiction.

Another fact, you're boring.

Mr. A

Again, obfuscation and ad hominem attack.



Try to be a little less predictable, will you Mr A? It would be a welcome

change from the general run of liberals.



Thanks!

[quote=mranonymous2u]

(and maybe a little armor and some protected Humvees instead of treating the reserves like cannon fodder).

[/quote]

The usual talking points, the uparmored Humvee and upgraded body armor has been in Iraq for better than two years now...

[quote=mranonymous2u]

"Why do you think we didn't prevail in Viet Nam? (Not because we didn't stay as the President said, which pisses in the eye of every Viet Nam Vet, that the draft dodging frat boy said that if we tried harder we'd have won in Viet Nam!) ...FACT "[/quote]

I doubt you know two Vietnam vets. Every last one of them I know says we lost ONLY because we left and Bush never said we'd have won if we "tried harder". What a bag of gas you are "A"....

Having just gotten out of the United States Navy, flown missions and have friends in Iraq as I click this out and seeing what is going on, I feel I am qualified to say that Mr A has a load "facts" that more closely resembles a load of sh%t...

The fact is...we are winning.  The fact is...the Iraq's don't want to quit fighting with each other.  The fact is... schools are being opened, water plants are being built, electrical companies are coming online and things are slow...but improving.  My suggestion is that you leave winning wars to the professionals that fly and fight everyday and you just climb back into whatever hole you climbed out of and just sell stocks, bonds and insurance.  Until you've flown the missions and seen the faces keep you stupid opinions to yourself.

By the way...we won the battles in Southeast Asia...we just lost the politcal war.  My dad is a Vietnam Vet... don't go there...

Dude, you are a sorry American.



Just returned from Walter Reed and Bethesda. Talked with some of our wounded and they are patriotic.



I question if people like you are patriotic when every time we have a negative you jump up and down like its a personnal victory. Why?



Do you really see the light in the leaders of Iran, Venesuala, Al Queda and North Korea? Do you think that Iraq is the only front on this war of idology?



Look in the mirror and ask if you even want us to win? If you listen to political BS know that they are full of crap. They all voted on the same information. Most voted to stay in Iraq.



Remember I serve and have served. So please don’t smile when we stumble. There can only be one winner and that is America and our allies.

I also wonder who says we failed. Right now Abbas in Palestine is doing a great job. Lebannon is fighting for their freedom everyday. Lybia is acting with our interests. Turkey and Saudi is a great ally. Jordan is a super ally. Iraq as a country is fighting terrorism. Afganistan as a country is fighting against terrorism. Pakastan and India are going after terrorists. All of Europe is searching for terrorists. Banks and most financial institutions aroud the world are searching and taking the money. Passports are required and the CIA, FBI, Homeland, local enforcers and military are working together. All of the American Military branches are working with most countries around the world.



So I wonder what some of these “We are losing are really reffering to.” Okay so today 60 people and 2 American Troops died. We have about 200k in the region and there are 50 million people in the two countries, where we are battling.



Just spend 8 hours driving some visiting some real heros. They were positive and proud. They understand that this war is more then just a daily headline on CNN or some other moron who has no clue.

"By the way...we won the battles in Southeast Asia...we just lost the politcal war."

Let's assume this is true.

What should we learn from it?

Mr. A