For 1400 years, Islam has waged war on all surrounding non-Muslim

civilizations. During the course of history, Christianity was reformed,

Europe colonized the world and set it free again, dictators lived, reigned

and died, and totalitarian regimes emerged and vanished.?



Islam won’t be integrated or assimilated into the values of freedom and

democracy. Islam is not only a religion; it is a totalitarian and

expansionist political ideology. You can see in Europe, Asia, and Africa.



If there are over a billion Muslims in the world, and 3 percent are

extremists, then the world has 30-35 million individuals who pose a

serious threat to world stability.



Interestingly in the book of Genesis, the name Ishmael (father of the

Arabs) states: he will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against

everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility

toward all his brothers. What a prophecy huh? My $.02

I've been pondering this huge gap in cultures between the countries of Islam and the Western cultures.  I think that the Magna Carta was a pivotal event. It is where we west from feudal and totalitarian world view  where the King or other authority figure had total and absolute control over the serfs or the general public, to one where the King or the Government derives it power from the people. 

We are used to this idea that the people have a say in government, question the religious and political authorities and even dismiss them and ignore their rules if we decide to do so. We have rights and we are not afraid to exercise them and stand up for our beliefs.  The Muslim world never had this turning point. The people believe that all power and rights are in the religious leaders, the tribal leaders and whomever else is in power.  The idea of a free press, right to public assembly and all of the other things we take for granted are unknown and foreign concepts.

This is why I believe that the "democratization" of the middle east is crucial and why the Mullahs and other people in power are so opposed, even to the death (our deaths preferably) to this change.  Once people get a taste of freedom of ideas and of body, they will not want to go back.

LAHORE, Pakistan - Thousands (I guess working is against thier religion too) of protesters rampaged through two cities Tuesday, storming into a diplomatic district and torching Western businesses (they like the extra crispy recipe)  and a provincial assembly in Pakistan's worst violence against the Prophet Muhammad drawings, officials said. At least two people were killed and 11 injured.

Security forces fired into the air as they struggled to contain the unrest in the eastern city of Lahore, where protesters burned down four buildings housing a hotel, two banks, a KFC restaurant and the office of a Norwegian cell phone company, Telenor (typical peaceful Islamic reaction).

U.S. and British embassy staffers were confined to their compounds until police dispersed the protesters, some of whom chanted, "Death to America". ( I guess we drew the cartoons too?)

[quote=babbling looney]

I've been pondering this huge gap in cultures between the countries of Islam and the Western cultures.  I think that the Magna Carta was a pivotal event. It is where we west from feudal and totalitarian world view  where the King or other authority figure had total and absolute control over the serfs or the general public, to one where the King or the Government derives it power from the people. 

We are used to this idea that the people have a say in government, question the religious and political authorities and even dismiss them and ignore their rules if we decide to do so. We have rights and we are not afraid to exercise them and stand up for our beliefs.  The Muslim world never had this turning point. The people believe that all power and rights are in the religious leaders, the tribal leaders and whomever else is in power.  The idea of a free press, right to public assembly and all of the other things we take for granted are unknown and foreign concepts.

This is why I believe that the "democratization" of the middle east is crucial and why the Mullahs and other people in power are so opposed, even to the death (our deaths preferably) to this change.  Once people get a taste of freedom of ideas and of body, they will not want to go back.

[/quote]

What if they don't want democratization BL?  You can lead a horse to water but you can't make 'em drink.  Would you waste your time trying to convince a person who absolutley needed stocks to achieve their goals but stubbornly refused?  Would you just keep on pounding them? 

I think the biggest mistake we can make is to become a "World Police" or get our clumsy paws in the mess of nation building.  In fact I voted for Bush during the first election becasue of his emphasis on the avoidance of nation building.

We should let them be as much as we can and stay out of their mess.  let them handle it on their own. You can only help those who sincerely want it. We can hardly begin to understand where they are coming from.  Our poor live richly compared to their middle class.  We have a relatively cozy life comparatively.  We are sheltered from the conditions that drive them. 

Walk a mile in a man's (or woman's) shoes before you judge.

Did you know that anti Americanism is highest in areas that have high illiteracy.

7GOD63- I agree that education is the key. But how will it be done I have no idea.  They are teaching their kids at a young age to hate the infadals and that carries over generation to generation.  Sometimes I wonder what would happen if we took all this money we are spending on war and spent it on somehow trying to get them educated.  I have no idea how we could ever put that into operaton though and it probably is not realistic.  But until they get educated, we can keep killing only to have each dead terrorist replaced with another.  I wonder if they are getting short on virgins in heaven.   

THere are extreme from every side. There are super extreme religious right that will not allow their children to go to doctor. There are extreme left that teach their children to hate Bush and the military. :)

Well for the war against terrorism there is a lot more then education. A leader of a country can force people to learn and preach an extreme. Terrorists such as Arafat, Saddam and Bin Laden (taliban) did their best to bread hate. So when they are removed and replaced with stable governments terrorism is surpressed. Look at any extreme leader and they use hate for power. They push an idology that the west is evil to stay in power. When they are removed and the supressed people can rise good things happen.

[quote=7GOD63]

THere are extreme from every side. There are super extreme religious right that will not allow their children to go to doctor. There are extreme left that teach their children to hate Bush and the military. :)

Well for the war against terrorism there is a lot more then education. A leader of a country can force people to learn and preach an extreme. Terrorists such as Arafat, Saddam and Bin Laden (taliban) did their best to bread hate. So when they are removed and replaced with stable governments terrorism is surpressed. Look at any extreme leader and they use hate for power. They push an idology that the west is evil to stay in power. When they are removed and the supressed people can rise good things happen.

[/quote]

Dude when they were done breading hate did they pan fry it for dinner?

7GOD63:

Did you know that anti Americanism is highest in areas that have high illiteracy.

PESHAWAR, Pakistan - A Pakistani cleric on Friday announced a $1 million

bounty for killing a cartoonist who drew Prophet Muhammad, as thousands

joined street rallies across the country and authorities arrested scores of

protesters.



Nice guys, especially those “religious” types. Maybe, he should team up with

Pat Robertson.

i love the puppets of this country who buy into this "freedom" fluff.

Some of you need to get out and travel. I guarantee you a lot of the "luxuries and freedoms" we have can be found in the middle east without having to work for a capital government.

yes, the people you see on the news are uneducated, but don't be quick to assume you're living the life when you can turn on the local news and hear about another kidnapping for the nth time and have to lock yuor doors and windows to keep yo safe because i guarantee you that's not something we worry about over there.

i love the puppets of this country who buy into this "freedom" fluff

I love the tendency of people to stereotype other people as all being the same when they disagree with your viewpoint.

but don't be quick to assume you're living the life when you can turn on the local news and hear about another kidnapping for the nth time and have to lock yuor doors and windows to keep yo safe because i guarantee you that's not something we worry about over there

Its not something we worry about over here either. I never lock the doors to my home unless I'm going out of town for a week. Generally leave the keys in my cars overnight.  The biggest news in my area is a dust up at the volunteer fire department over how much it cost to clean the firehall.   The only reason I don't leave the doors open at night is because of the mountain lions, racoons and skunks that would like to come and visit not to mention mosquitos in the summer.

Don't be so quick to assume that everything you read in the news about anyplace (USA or Middle East) actually represents the truth about how people think and live.

err, that was actually kinda my point. thanks for putting it in better words  though

I guess Muslim children will have to live with no Legos or Havarti cheese.

and the USA pays for both sides of the terror-

as long as we want to drive 10 mpg SUVs or 5 mpg hummers, we will continue to pay for the aggression waged against us- as well as the answer to it -

then again, if we can send machines around the universe some of which are designed to collide with zooming comets, ect- you'd think by know we would have developed an engine that'd give us the hourse power we demand and the 20-30 mpg that'd keep the crazies financially marginalized-

Saw this bumper sticker:

US has 5% of the world's population. Consumes 30% of the world's resources. Generates 25% of the world's waste.

Of course, this bumper sticker was on a SUV.

that has never bothered me before- all about the production we provide the world, ect..

but now, w/ men and women dying over there, for i believe the necessary reason of keeping the barbarians off the gate, we have got to reduce our appetite while we increase the technology needed to buy less and less of that stuff-

the strategies to change muslim fanatic's into modern peace loving people needs to become a moot point- who would care if they did not have the cash to blow the whole place up?

what are we going to do with those poor, peagan, communist Kuna Indians of San Blas, Panama? besides reading about them once every 2 years in Nation Geographic, nothing.