[quote=BondGuy]

Yes, seriously!

Y'all are jumin' on the anti Obama bandwagon. A bandwagon that is Madison Avenue slick. None of us can understand how blind or naive or uniformed or misunformed the Bogleheads are, but then y'all fall this load of bullshit? Seriously?    My beef with Obama was that he spoke about being the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.  Now he is just as partisan as the rest of the hacks in D.C.

 We had a balanced budget and limited government spending under Clinton. We also had a budget surplus. Any Clinton supporters in the group?  I LOVED Clinton!  There was limited government spending under Clinton, but that wasn't because of Clinton. 

We had an energy policy under Carter that reduced our dependance on foreign oil by 50%. Reagan undid it as fast as he could. If we'd kept those policies in place there would have been no Gulf War and no Iraq War. We would be masters of our own economy. How many Carter fans we got here?   Carter was an idiot.  Predicting that we woudn't have a war is a pretty big stretch. 

Undo health care? Exactly how would that affect you? Is there anyone in this country who doesn't deserve health care?  Last question you asked - Everyone deserves health care, but it shouldn't be free.  And it still isn't.  It's just free for people who can't afford it.  My premiums were already affected.  I specifcially got a letter form my insurance company telling me the reason that my insurance premiums were going up was because of "future projected costs due to new legislation".  Of course that could mean ANYTHING.

By a show of hands, how many of you really beleive the bailouts were unnecessary and we shouldn't have done them?  I don't think they were unnecessary.  Although, I have said from the beginning that the government is likely to make money from the whole thing and it should have been sold as an investment, which would have done a few things:  1)  Given the public confidence that capital markets correct and 2)  Not associated "bailouts" with financial institutions and 3)  Made people realize that personal bailouts are different.  Although that might be asking a lot.  Once again though, Bush and Paulson were the father's of that, so Obama doesn't get to take credit for it.  Neither do the Democrats or Republicans in Congress who RAILED against it.  Also, if you campaigned on platform of "Bailouts are bad, and no more bailouts", you don't get to take credit for a "Bailout". 

By a show of hands how many of you have been tangibly adversely affected by the current administration?  Like I said, already have on health care.  I will further be adversely affected as the small business provisions go into affect, and the auditing requirements of RIAs.  I estimate my additional costs next year to be around $7k just for business related expenses, simply do to this administrations policies.  I normally don't care about politics, EXCEPT when it affects me adversely.

By a show of hands, how many of you really beleive there has been enough time since the 08 meltdown for recovery to take place?   Me.  Pick me!  You bet.  There's been enough time.  But it doesn't help when you continue to spend.  Now, I get that government spending has a multiplicative affect on economic growth - I really do.  But, spending with no goal and no plan doesn't help anybody out.  Not to mention that the government is the worst entity to efficiently allocate resources.

Yeah, tenth, seriously!

[/quote]

Simply put, Congress has had four years to fix things.  President Obama has had two.  People give credit to Clinton for the recovery in '92 (which is interesting, since he wasn't even in office.  Also interesting is that technically, the recession ended in '91).  So if it only took him one month to fix things, then why does it take this administration 24 times as long to fix things?  Which is it?  Did Bush senior fix things, or did Clinton?  That answer will determine whether or not you think Obama has had enough time.  It is entirely possible that the recovery was started because of *gasp* President Bush Jr's policies. 

What is interesting is that both sides of this argument are claiming NOT to be idealogues, but in fact are. 

BG - Think you are great.  I also think your posts are well thought out.  They just aren't balanced.  Where is your equal criticism for President Obama and the Democrats.  The disegenuity of the left hand side.  It is easy to hate the right, because they champion the cause of upper-middle to upper America.  But I ask you, who would champion their cause, if not the Republicans?  Do they not deserve equal protection under the laws of this land?

"No mortgages will be allowed  to be sold from the original issuer"

Tenth, that is well said right? You agree with this?...

Of course not. Unless ... this policy is used as an alternative to more layers of complicated nanny-state regulations.

I believe in allowing freedom in the capital markets. Freedom to securitize, leverage, gamble. No different than you deciding to ride a motorcycle, who am I to call you  fool for putting your body out there?

Bailouts or interventions are necessary during a liquidity crisis, nobody is doubting that fact. We can defend the status quo or argue about the events or causes that lead up to them, or we can take a step back.

I see the meltdown as the beginning of post industrial America. We found our limits in the world economy. A lot of folks can take credit for making it happen, and absorbing the stress to bail us out.

Some folks got rich, some went broke. Everyone is soiled by the crisis.

America has a few great strengths that need to be leverage. No question, one of them is the freedom for the individual or even the markets to fail.

If you think the mortgage meltdown was big, (heaven forbid), wait until the next big geopolitical crisis. The tests get harder and harder, and we have to play to our basic strengths.

Almost everyone is missing identifying the next big wave, which will be the convergence of progressive and conservative economic thought. It will happen out of necessity. Its champion will be small business. In this sense, big government and big business will become more accountable. That is the strength of the "Tea Party", and just saying "no" - it promotes the economic interests of the individual.

At a very basic level, most people are happiest and feel most satisfied when they are making an effort and succeeding in meeting their own basic needs. That is the future vision for this economic convergence.

In that sense ( in the sense of relating to all of this as a financial advisor), you are wasting your time with deconstuctionist analysis of what went wrong, and in the case of you negative progressives, name calling and defending the status quo.

You are betting off putting your energy into understanding the "next wave", and how to align your own interests with the interest of your "clients". ( Your charitable contribution to the profession or society if you have already met your basic needs.)

I think we all want to grow and find ourselves in a special place and time, blessed, I'm sure, to even have the time and energy to reflect here, and if we abuse that blessing we are accountable. You need a basic level of respect for the opinions and experience and discoveries of others, but if you don't uncover and share some core beliefs, you are  better off investing your energy in things you can influence or even control.

[quote=BondGuy]

Jen, I really have to thank you for giving me a greater understanding of one aspect of our political landscape. I now understand why so many Tea Party protest signs contain misspellings.

Jen, prove to me that you aren't a moron: Tell me, in complete sentences, exactly what happened in August, September, and October of 2008. What, exactly, the meltdown was, and what, exactly, caused it. Why the govt let ML BAC DB and others skate and went hammer down on Lehman. Leave out the political diatribe and finger pointing. Just in chronological order what happened.

If you don't respond it's a fail, it shows you don't know the answer. Politics aside if you don't know the answer you have no business being in this business. Feel free to cheat off the crib sheet i've given you in this thread.

[/quote]

I cant spell.   

Im ADD as a MF and cant stand checking crap on a stupid waste of time message board.

sorry

plenty of blame to go around in subprime meltdown.   After Enron/tech blow up and then this i have come to one  conclusion

.....we humans aint as smart as we think we are.     No one really connected the dots on what was happening   (ok  afreak show like kyle bass got lucky).  we aint that smart.   very successful people are also very lucky.

anyway.  plenty of blame.   the core of it was based in liberal ideals going back to fannie (roosevelt?)

cra

jimmys enterprise zones

bubbas withc docotr loans

etc

Like always, the intent was GREAT.   homes are better then no homes.  lets help as many people as possible get a home.     duh.    who would not agree with this?

but alas   there are ALWAYS bad unintended consequences when you fukc with free markets.  same thing here.    some of it took many many years.  some quicker.

the accounting probems that fannie and freddie had in the late 90's (i think) lead to the quick loan/countrywides to fill in the void.  no skin in game.  Angelo didnt give  acrap if u were qualified because they sold the paper

greed on wall street in the development of CDO's CMO's  original idea was solid.  spread risk

the complexity

the greed

the crap rugulation

perfect storm

I guess Al keeping rates too low after 911 contribuated also.

are these all bad, evil people. nope.   

remeber we are ALL GREEDY

all of us  the huamn condition.  original sin

all the people in this puzzle were just being flawed humans

the greedy fukc getting teh no-doc loan to use his house as a ATM

jimmy carter isnt a bad person.  enterprise zones seem good.

chris cox isnt a bad person.   he belives free markets hold the key for prosperity.

the closet thing to "bad" (prolly sick)  were madolfm standford and jeff skilling

non violent sciopaths

canada has no fannie or freddie and great home ownership and no subprime.

so are liberal ideals to blame?    no one is to blame

humans are flawed

did phil ghramm and chris cox and W and the other free market supply siders cause it?

nope

perfect storm

capitilism seems to blwo up about every 80 years or so.

on sept 19, 2008 the entire system did come very close to melting down.

a dollar is a dollar cause we both trust that is is.  if that trust is gone.  its paper

when the Reserve fund went under a buck and libor and the ted  spread went nuts...the system was ready to melt.    trust was gone.

i think hank and ben saved the free world.     The perfect guy was in that job.  a darthmoth lineacker that woked at Goldie and had balls of steel to undertsand that a indication that the USA master card would cover things ASAP.

yes.  TARP was nesssary and saved the system.

i think they needed to act the NEXT day.   how much left money market that night?  a tril?

again  we are animals  humans.  we revert to self preservation.

plenty of blame

what i do strongly KNOW is that mettling is free markets ALWAYS ends badly

the solutions always can be found with not FIGHTING human nature (greed) and pretendng that it does not exist.....but it understanding human nature and adapting a systme that works for the better good.

this elizabeth warrem dodd-frank 3000 page clusterfukc WILL end badly

like all govt bs mettling.

Am i less compassionate then you?

i bet not.

I just know that the answer is a MAN WITH A JOB.

that wealth is created through free markets-period

people exceling to better themselves through hard work and brains

and if you make this sytem as clean as you can (Hong ong) EVERYONE is better off

as the great ronnie reagan said:

"help the factory owner  you help the factory worker"   

cut taxes

cut regulation

cut all govt except the minimum

period.

health care?   again  look at lasiks

name one MF govt peice of carp program that ENDED?

just one

OK  we did it!!!   we met out goal

success.  we are done

do we need rules?  of course.

history says that simple hard and fast rules keeps human between the ditches

again  reg q for margin etc

bond

trurth n lending was suppose to protect people

you ever read teh bs they give u at clsoing?

does anyone read it?

how that work?

how that 4th generation on welfare doing?

a man with a job

get govt out of the way

and BTW   i was proud when owebama was elected

god bless america

we elected a black man

how cool

i was hopeful.   i rooted for the guy to suceed

i took my medicine that we lost

that iraq was a huge mistake

i even bought off on some of owebama bs at the beginning

wow.  maybe this guy can pull this off.

what a let down

this guy is so shallow

bashing groups

fat cat bankers

oil companies

"kicking people asses"

cheating on helathcare

saying so much crap that is just total BS

shallow and tunnel vision is the 2 best words i can think of

confrotational and small minded

really very disappointing

i had vision of less racism.   a more together country

this guy has been the great divider

i am actually pretty liberal on social stuff.

i was hopeful.  id certianly pay more in txes if t is truly for teh better good

a more fair country?    how cool

this guy is all about redistributuoning the wealth without reguard for fairness or what is correct

he treats everything in us vs them simplicity.

true courage and growth lies in understanding someones positions and having emphathy for its origin

compassion

humbleness is endering

this guy thinks like everything is a Fantasy football game

i will always respect him and his wife for their great personal success.

hard work.  beat the system.  aweome.

i dont really espect him much anymore in terms of his presidency

arrogance and pettieness

shallow

disappointing.     he had a chance to really change the world

To those saying BondGuy is wrong to deconstruct the past crisis, are you kidding?  Never heard the maxim that those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat it?  That's the whole problem with conservatives' current policy.  You haven't learned a damn thing from the past crisis.  So why the hell should we think you would know a damn thing about preventing the next!?!?!?!  Good grief.  Prove you can learn something, then tell us your opinion.

The greatest danger in life is to fervently believe that which isn't true.  That's what makes conservatives more dangerous than liberals.  Liberals don't really fervently believe much, which is sad, but most of what conservatives fervently believe is rubbish, which is dangerous.

Lastly, Nettlesome, it is the height of arrogance to present your "thoughts" in a manner that puts all the onus in making them coherent on the reader.  Sorry.  Can't read it; won't read it.  ADD really?!?!  Sounds like a liberal excuse to me.  Man up for god's sake and work to overcome your shortcomings.  That's what you seem to expect of everyone ELSE.

I know I am new here but please let me add my two cents here. If you have ever read the bible esp. Proverbs you would know that "THE BORROWER IS SLAVE TO THE LENDER" and thAt you should work your tail off till u r debt free.

I got in the financial biz a year ago to change the world. As of today I have refied several mortgages, done personal loans, and taught debt snowballing to countless people. Why?? Cause I do care. That said I will not stand by and let the government take half of my money when I start making it big and give it back to the very people I pulled myself and my family out of. God gave me two hands, two legs, and a brain I think I can take care of myself without the govt. Heck I wish they would just get out of the way. So there that is my two cense I hope it was worth your time.

Btw I really have enjoyed your non political posts over the last few weeks bondguy. I hope that all of us can still be professional and curteous even if we disagree.

Mateo

[quote=loneMADman]

To those saying BondGuy is wrong to deconstruct the past crisis, are you kidding?  Never heard the maxim that those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat it?  That's the whole problem with conservatives' current policy.  You haven't learned a damn thing from the past crisis.  So why the hell should we think you would know a damn thing about preventing the next!?!?!?!  Good grief.  Prove you can learn something, then tell us your opinion.

The greatest danger in life is to fervently believe that which isn't true.  That's what makes conservatives more dangerous than liberals.  Liberals don't really fervently believe much, which is sad, but most of what conservatives fervently believe is rubbish, which is dangerous.

Lastly, Nettlesome, it is the height of arrogance to present your "thoughts" in a manner that puts all the onus in making them coherent on the reader.  Sorry.  Can't read it; won't read it.  ADD really?!?!  Sounds like a liberal excuse to me.  Man up for god's sake and work to overcome your shortcomings.  That's what you seem to expect of everyone ELSE.

[/quote]

dude

Would you please stop your GD whining.    man  you sound like such a freakin pu#$y.

"it is the height of arrogance to present your "thoughts" in a manner that puts all the onus in making them coherent on the reader."

that might be the stupidest comment in the history of earth

"cant read....wont read"

you did'nt cry   did you?

You cant be an FA  

are you in compliance?   HR?   green peace?  save the MF whales?

I own my own RIA.  And once again, I take your "stupidest" comment as the highest form of flattery.

And I wasn't complaining about your incomprehensible rantings.  I was just offering constructive feedback.  It's not surprising at all that you misinterpreted it.

I'm still waiting for jen's version of the meltdown.

i gave it

 scroll back.

it was brilliant

lone mad man, 

peace.   sorry for being such a dick.  

here   check this acid falsh back out

it will make you laugh   unless u too young

i love utube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg-ivWxy5KE

Nettles u be one bad mother. Wah, wah wah wah ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAh_4s_-tas&feature=related

Lovin - Unbalanced? Me? Here?  LOL, yeah, just a little bit eh? I'm not a great lover of the left. As I've said many times the majority of this board is so far right that coming, more or less, from the center I appear far left to most here. I agree with Dman that the far right is dangerous. For example, many on the far right believe that The Flintstones is an accurate portrayal of the chronological history of the world.  How else to compress the planet's time line to fit with their beliefs? While they are free to believe as they chose, these people would not make good leaders.

The fact that this board is so far right leaning even when i express ideas eminating from the center i'm labeled as extreme left. I voted for repub governor and congressman last time around. And while i never voted for anyone named Bush, i didn't vote for Clinton the first time around either. I did vote for Carter, twice. The first time because the choice was Ford and the second because while he is defined by the Iran hostage affair as weak, history shows he was an effective president. he got more of his legislation passed than any other president in modern history. His reduction on foreign oil was but one example of the direction he was leading us in. I voted Reagan for his second term. So, like i said, i'm not married to one ideology or party.

On this thread i came out strongly because the TP movement is, IMO, so wrongheaded. It's anger is what's wrong with this country today. I must get a dozen teap arty supporrer emails a day. All balasting obama or the dems. And every single one of them factually incorrect. Everyone of them!!!!! Yet, the senders of the emails take them as fact. Not to mention highly racist. Which of course, is the under story here. Many are pissed off that a black man is in the oval office. Say what you will about TP candidate Carl Paladino, at least he's up front about it.

I believe that Obama's admin has effed up. But i also believe that; One, he hasn't had enough time and two, the repubs have created a new level of politics called 'Extreme Roadblock" which the prez has to deal with.

I also observe that we are living through an extremely polarizing time and the prez has to deal with that as well. I juxopose the dissatisfaction level of many in the middle class with their lives which  are pretty good. Yet they bitch and whine and call the prez out? They scream no more bailouts but were Ok with the 3 trillion we spent on a failed war in Iraq. Sheep they are one and all!

Dman , i agree that the right doesn't have the answers, only the raised fist in the air! Iraq is proof enough that they don't get "When you find yourself in a hole, first thing, stop digging!

Jen, Ok , as the world's worst speller I have no business picking on your bad spelling. But, the bad spelling and grammer is so "Tea Party!" That said, if i'm reading you right you seem to understand that we were days away from total collapse, and that the bailiouts were needed? That being the case, and with the Tea Party's  central bitch with the government being the bailouts, where does it square that you are a Tea Partier? I could see it if the bailouts were one small part of the TP movement but they're not. The bailouts are the engine that drives the movement, the central plank. So, what's up with that?

Tenth, you confuse me. You gave a "well said" endorsement to Jen's no more mortgage sales statement and then you say you don't agree. So, which is it? And, if you don't agree, why the blanket endorsement?

And, for anyone who isn't understanding the mortgage sales issue, look back at the economy through most of your lifetime or adult lifetime. All those prosperous years - directly tied to mortgage sales. As goes housing, so goes the economy. Stop mortgage sales and the economy will never recover or recover to the degree of prosperity we once enjoyed.

Mateo - Professional and courteous even if we disagree? Not a chance on a political thread like this one. But hard feelings over it? On my part, no way! I've had people rip me a new one on here only to PM me asking for help with biz. Which i gladly give. Funny thing is, even in the PMs they throw me under the bus! So what? Politics and religion gets the blood boiling. None of it makes those of who disagree bad people.

I agree, i too wish, in many cases the government would just get out the way. However, i take issue with "The borrower is slave to the lender" quote from the bible. I totally agree with that proverb. However, the right, which are the bible thumping Christians  are also the ones who supported the repubs push to enact the ridiculous lending laws and regulation that enslave the poor to the rich. They are the ones who supported a change in our bankruptcy laws when people, under the weigh of 20 and 30% interest rates turned to the government for relief. The Repubs used examples of borrower fraud to change the law, even though the stats showed that fraud among borrowers was not an issue. The repubs didn't let that fact get in the way of chaining these people to the floor to keep them enslaved to the rich, the republican benefactors of the new law. So, where i take issue with the right wing is on Sunday they thump their bibles and say debt is sinful, and then on Monday issue loans to poor people at loan shark interest rates or support the people who do.

[quote=BondGuy] 

...On this thread i came out strongly because the TP movement is, IMO, so wrongheaded. It's anger is what's wrong with this country today. I must get a dozen teap arty supporrer emails a day. All balasting obama or the dems. And every single one of them factually incorrect. Everyone of them!!!!! Yet, the senders of the emails take them as fact. Not to mention highly racist. Which of course, is the under story here. Many are pissed off that a black man is in the oval office. Say what you will about TP candidate Carl Paladino, at least he's up front about it...

...I agree, i too wish, in many cases the government would just get out the way. However, i take issue with "The borrower is slave to the lender" quote from the bible. I totally agree with that proverb. However, the right, which are the bible thumping Christians  are also the ones who supported the repubs push to enact the ridiculous lending laws and regulation that enslave the poor to the rich. They are the ones who supported a change in our bankruptcy laws when people, under the weigh of 20 and 30% interest rates turned to the government for relief. The Repubs used examples of borrower fraud to change the law, even though the stats showed that fraud among borrowers was not an issue. The repubs didn't let that fact get in the way of chaining these people to the floor to keep them enslaved to the rich, the republican benefactors of the new law. So, where i take issue with the right wing is on Sunday they thump their bibles and say debt is sinful, and then on Monday issue loans to poor people at loan shark interest rates or support the people who do.[/quote]

How can you make the "racism" claims in the first paragraph then spew the accusations and generalizations of another demographic in the next one? Discrimination comes in many forms all be it "racism" is the most obvious. I can see your point that some are upset that the prez is black. But that is something they can get over. He is our prez and I am proud we finally have overcome that hurdle. I don't have issues with him as a person, my disagreements mainly stem from the effects of the governments actions toward my personal liberties. It just seems to me that the left effects these liberties more than the right. So unfortunately, I usually vote against a candidate not for a candidate.

As for your last paragraph, I feel it is completely unacceptable and I hope you honestly do not feel that way. If this is a true reflection of your emotions/ideology then I highly recommend you look in the mirror to get a better description of bigotry...  pot meet kettle...

BG, it seems like you are looking more at the problems than solutions. At some point you have to move on.

I don't have a clear idea of what you believe about economics or even politics as your "core" principles. It's not clear what you bring to the table as a political economist/financial advisor.

N.D., I totally appreciate your comments about racism.

Before the election, I had correctly figured Obama as a BSer. ( His apparent core beliefs/behaviors scare me ). Yet I celebrated his victory as a triumph for social equality in America.

I say "correct", because even the far left is calling him out on his BS now, and rightfully so. The far left does not like him, neither the center, nor the right. Who does he represent?

The only time I even remember Obama is "black" ( why does black win out over white in mixed genetics?) is when he reminds us. It really bugs me when he says it takes time for an ecnomic recovery, just like it took time to liberate the slaves.

This type of comment is a watershed remark: you either decide to be PC and walk together with your PC comrade a little farther down the revisionist path in a brave new world, or you stand by your beliefs and just see it as patronizing and self-serving.

Same with your comments above.

These behaviors are the worst type of anti-intellectualism. You say Tea partiers are ignorant, yet you seem to have no problem insulting the values, objectivity, religiosity, and intelligence of folks who don't agree with your POV - consistently - in your posts.

I don't think of you as being and original thinker at all, if you're "moderate", you can keep your middle of the road to yourself. It seems like you're just pushed around by the winds of popular liberal thought like a cork on the water.

You seem like a smart guy, and it feels like you are just f****** with us. Just like the Dems have been doing with the whole country. In fairness, the only reason to fight back is for mild entertainment and to practice writing and spelling. For this, I'm grateful.

I'd have to give Nettles the highest marks for creativity in the writing department..

If you think the problems of this country has to do with Republicans or Democrats, spend some time listening to the senatorial debates on CSPAN.

It is nothing but mudslinging. If you want to look at solutions rather than problems, start getting some new blood in politics. Even when candidates are asked directly about their ideas for solving a specific problem, be it immigration, economic woes or health care, they will start weaving and then talk about how bad the opposition is and this in very generic terms. It's really nothing more than a "he said, she said" game at this stage.

It bothers me that this sort of political message is apparently the most effective one available. Whether you're a leftie or a rightie, at least have the proverbial balls to present your own thoughts - I would appreciate it. Hopefully I am not the only one. The only good thing that can come from this is an infusion of votes to more independent platforms that aren't afraid to present thoughts and solutions.

Exactly. Look over here while that little man behind the curtain takes your money. That is why we need to reinvent ourselves. Once you stop defending the status quo, a lot of possibilites arise.

The markets are like scouring winds that expose bedrock. The borrowed money is spent, let  reality and reason prevail. Optimism waxing. The strength of Americans is majority intolerance for BS. You can still pack up your s*** and move west.

[quote=N.D.]

[quote=BondGuy] 

...On this thread i came out strongly because the TP movement is, IMO, so wrongheaded. It's anger is what's wrong with this country today. I must get a dozen teap arty supporrer emails a day. All balasting obama or the dems. And every single one of them factually incorrect. Everyone of them!!!!! Yet, the senders of the emails take them as fact. Not to mention highly racist. Which of course, is the under story here. Many are pissed off that a black man is in the oval office. Say what you will about TP candidate Carl Paladino, at least he's up front about it...

...I agree, i too wish, in many cases the government would just get out the way. However, i take issue with "The borrower is slave to the lender" quote from the bible. I totally agree with that proverb. However, the right, which are the bible thumping Christians  are also the ones who supported the repubs push to enact the ridiculous lending laws and regulation that enslave the poor to the rich. They are the ones who supported a change in our bankruptcy laws when people, under the weigh of 20 and 30% interest rates turned to the government for relief. The Repubs used examples of borrower fraud to change the law, even though the stats showed that fraud among borrowers was not an issue. The repubs didn't let that fact get in the way of chaining these people to the floor to keep them enslaved to the rich, the republican benefactors of the new law. So, where i take issue with the right wing is on Sunday they thump their bibles and say debt is sinful, and then on Monday issue loans to poor people at loan shark interest rates or support the people who do.[/quote]

How can you make the "racism" claims in the first paragraph then spew the accusations and generalizations of another demographic in the next one? Discrimination comes in many forms all be it "racism" is the most obvious. I can see your point that some are upset that the prez is black. But that is something they can get over. He is our prez and I am proud we finally have overcome that hurdle. I don't have issues with him as a person, my disagreements mainly stem from the effects of the governments actions toward my personal liberties. It just seems to me that the left effects these liberties more than the right. So unfortunately, I usually vote against a candidate not for a candidate.

As for your last paragraph, I feel it is completely unacceptable and I hope you honestly do not feel that way. If this is a true reflection of your emotions/ideology then I highly recommend you look in the mirror to get a better description of bigotry...  pot meet kettle...

[/quote]

They are the same demographic. Rich white folks. Define rich as- not poor. We are far from overcoming that hurdle.

Are the repubs not the party of the wealthy? Do they not speak for the wealthy in this country? Are they not  anti-tax, anti social programs? Are they not anti health care and mental health care? Did they not boot the mentally ill out of hospitals, group homes, and treatment programs and put them on the streets? Did a republican controlled congress and senate not legalize 30% plus interest rates for their banker friends? Did a republican controlled congress and senate not change the bankruptcy code at the behest of their rich banker friends? Who, exactly would be negatively affected by those decisions? The rich? Are republicans not defined as right wing? Is the Christian right not part of the repubican party?

ND, the problem with the repubs is they can't face their own callousness. Everything is spin.  The repubs have systematically stolen from the poor and given to the rich. And if you don't see that you need to wake  up about what's going on in this country.

Charging those who can least afford it 30% interest, denying poor woman access to breat cancer treatment, mentally ill freezing to death on the streets. All OK with the republicans. Republicans who go to church on Sunday and will tell anyone who will listen what good people they are.

Does this define everyone who is a republican? Of course not! But it defines the party. Heartless!

BondGuy, your generalization is nauseating and I am appalled that you are part of the this industry. I surely hope you do not tell your clients the way you feel about them, of course assuming your clients are wealthy.

The best advice I can give you is to quit pointing your finger at every one else and take responsibility for yourself and whatever ideology you represent. We all are the problem and we all are the solution but we must take individual accountability for each decision we make and that is the core difference between the right and the left.

You wake up each morning and decide to go to work others do not. "Bankers" wake up each morning and decide to make their company as profitable as they can others decide to operate non-profits. No one is forced to work so there is not a problem if someone decides not to. No one is forced to buy products from bankers so there is not a problem if someone decides not to.

Everyone needs to take accountability for their own actions and quit blaming others. This is life and there are winners and losers, good people and bad, educated and uneducated. Just the way it is. I find your attack on the right as offensive as the right's attack on the left.

N.D., totally share your feelings.

I would only add, speaking of feelings: a loved one had a dream about a personal visit with Barrack Obama.

Obama was innocently describing his idealism and passions, using food coloring, flowers and water.

Barrack Obama was abandoned by his father and his emotional development was arrested. He grew up outside the U. S. (including Hawaii) and came here filled with passion and his own vision. When he became President, his idealism was not tempered with pragmatism or maturity.

The part that perhaps Fox and some others got wrong was mischaracterizing his agenda as being more diabolical than naiive.

I appreciate BG's view, and his statement, in my estimation, brings to conclusion my questions about how a guy can work in the industry and exclude other's viewpoints on the basis of emotional idealism.

With all respect, American knows it's time for the adults to take charge again. ( They can gather from all "parties".) Even the media lost "its" senses. This will be known as a time when America stumbled in emotional intelligence, but recovered to be more pragmatic and hard-nosed about her place in the world.

Also: this industry is a place where progressives and conservatives, idealists and the self interested work - side by side.

Many years ago, my trainers taught WDYWFY? What do you want for yourself?

Many of us came from social work and teaching backgrounds. In my case, I burned out on social work and teaching. What we found is, you have to know what you want for yourself before you can help others.

This is an industry where you can do immense good for others. There is almost unlimited poverty in the world, but poverty can also be a state of mind.

The opportunity afforded to Americans and professionals in our industry is almost unlimited, and with opportunity comes responsibility, including the responsibility to grow emotionally in our understanding of the meaning of wealth creation, money, the markets and even wealth destruction.

I believe Obama represents the ascendence of the idealistic notions of a very priveledged and selfish generation of baby boomers. Not that they didn't work hard and suffer, but unlike the generation before them, their economic notions were formed in the shade of a very prosperous post WWII economy which America projected, took, created, her place on the world stage.

Now all of this is changing so fast - it's scary, in fact, even the tradition notions of leadership and personal coaching can't keep up with demand.

That represents a lot of opportunity for advisors in the industry, and one of the keys to be a leader, in addition to education, experience, and perspective, is emotional intelligence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence

http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Intelligence-Enhancing-Performance-Leadership/dp/0131490508

Doug Lennick retired from IDS/American Express/Ameriprise

As a slow growing economy, debt, globalization, outsourcing jobs, even poverty take their toll on the American economy, there will be a European "socialization" of the economy.

But even the grab for power (wealth redistribution) - almost seems a little nostalgic, when you consider the  nature of the American economy.

Our mutlinational corporations have the reach and power to function and be profitiable overseas - by setting up shop in individul countries and acting locally. Point is, these companies will act in their own interest, and even our ability to tax or control them is limited.

Protectionism and tariffs will be increase, this is the one thing upon which libs and conservs agree. Not necessarily a bad thing in itself, although it will drive up the cost of goods and services and protect certain inefficiencies like unions and the subsidized production of automobiles.

The point is, the money is spent, our debt is high, belief in the Tooth Fairy dissapates with childhood's end. We are witnessing the greatest seachange of our life, and it's okay to ask, WDYWFY? That question puts us into alignment with the rest of the world, and if we are a blessed with certain resources, abilities or insights, we need to share these in order to uplift ourself and those around us. This is the meaning of emotional intelligence or economic emotional maturity, and those boomers who get around feelings of jealousy, disappointment, depression, hatred, fear and so on will begin to see the light, even as the competition and poverty of the world closes in and is uplifted by human progress.

The world still cries for  our American idealism, born in the wild open West,  even amidst, free farmland and bountiful soils and rainfall and droughts and floods and lawless gunfighters and the people's frontier justice.

We cannot afford to cave in to nostalgic self-absorbtion or feeling sorry for ourselves, which is really what BG is doing here. A luxury some, but not most, can afford.

We have to suck it up and move forward, and we all know how to do it and what to do next.

[quote=N.D.]

BondGuy, your generalization is nauseating and I am appalled that you are part of the this industry. I surely hope you do not tell your clients the way you feel about them, of course assuming your clients are wealthy.

The best advice I can give you is to quit pointing your finger at every one else and take responsibility for yourself and whatever ideology you represent. We all are the problem and we all are the solution but we must take individual accountability for each decision we make and that is the core difference between the right and the left.

You wake up each morning and decide to go to work others do not. "Bankers" wake up each morning and decide to make their company as profitable as they can others decide to operate non-profits. No one is forced to work so there is not a problem if someone decides not to. No one is forced to buy products from bankers so there is not a problem if someone decides not to.

Everyone needs to take accountability for their own actions and quit blaming others. This is life and there are winners and losers, good people and bad, educated and uneducated. Just the way it is. I find your attack on the right as offensive as the right's attack on the left.

[/quote]

That you believe that poor people have choices shows either a quaint naivete or a very narrow band of knowledge. Either way, you are a clueless rich boy! You speak of individual accountablity when you have no idea what that means.

 You are so worried about one freeloader getting over on you that you deny help to 100 working poor who need a hand up. But, not to worry, your banker friends will be there to help.

Of course you find my summation of the right offensive.  Tell me, of all the points I raised, are any untrue?

I assure they are all true. You are disgusted by the truth of what the right has done. You chose to attack my comments and classify them as generalizations. You do so because, that puts it in a place you can live with.