Taxation in spite of representation

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Oct 14, 2008 10:29 pm

What kind of talking points are you starting to use when clients ask what will happen to taxes if Candidate A gets elected or Candidate B gets elected?  Anybody have any "what ifs" coming from the geniuses that we support in our respective home office Ivory Towers?  Curious to hear what we're all saying.

Oct 15, 2008 10:57 am

"It doesn't f'ing matter." 

 
Both of them (like all candidacies) are just trying to position themselves in front of voters.  What matters is that we are going to have to pay for this debacle somehow, so don't put much weight in what they say.  Either way, assume that going forward we will pay more in taxes tomorrow than we do today (we are in a very low-tax environment right now).
 
This may not hold true for lower-income folks, so for those that are in retirement, it's tough to know whether they will pay more or less.
Oct 15, 2008 11:12 am

Even if someone retires with a smaller income than they had when working, I still tell them there is a good chance they'll have higher taxes.  The idea that we're in a low income tax environment is one.  Also, when one retires, they tend to lose deductions they had when they were working (child credits, mortgage paid off - no interest deductions, self-employed deductions, etc.).  Plus, when do you spend more money:  a working week, or a week of vacation?  Isn't retirement permanent vacation?

Oct 15, 2008 11:36 am
C'mon, the home office tower is just trying to survive, let alone generate original thought.
 
I like the idea that we are in a low tax environment, of course taxes will go up.
 
(McCain's) proposal to limit distributions from retirement plans to a 10% rate (limit 100k?) is significant.
 
No matter how you cut it, the Great Society of the 60's (ghetto building) has failed once, and America is not Denmark or even China, in terms of central planning - our greatest strengths play around the ideas of free market, low taxes, responsibility of the individual - these are under pressure.
 
Therefore, put money in your Roth and never again pay taxes. Money is a good muni bond fund is "what you see, what you get". Social Security will "be there", or there will be a social disorder - but if you delay taking it, and work a little longer, we can reduce the amount you need to save, or trickle money out of your retirement plans and stay under the (increasingly oppressive) tax radar.
 
What we do now - how we position your investments - will have a huge impact on how much you pay in taxes later on. And given the financial problems (of just Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid - which WILL have the remain in place), it really doesn't matter who gets elected.
 
We need to control what we can control - now- the focus is on YOU.
Oct 15, 2008 11:52 am

Wish you had not started this post. We had our elections last night in Canada and as expected another Conservative Minority Government ( although they did gain seats ).

On either side of the Border , only a dreamer ( voter ) could really beleive that taxes are not on the way up. Forgot the promises at best just outright BS , the governments are not going to be able to afford the give aways. Now to the situation at hand ..... increased User Fees ( taxes ) , New Taxes ( something they forgot or missed the last time ) and increases on Income Taxes in some way ( no/smaller allowable deductions ).
Governments WILL HAVE a Revenue shortfall , the only question is how can they creatively get more from the taxpayer.
Oct 15, 2008 12:09 pm

Well, Norseman, on this side of North America, ( and I suppose yours), if you own your own business, you can spend most of the money and not pay much in taxes.

 
Wouldn't you agree then, one tax strategy could be to align your business and personal interests (expense everything you can) , something well afforded in times like right now.
 
And maybe just plan on working your practive a few extra years- balance your life now.
 
Lifestyle tax strategies can take away a lot of the worry about government, taxes and such.
 
 
Oct 15, 2008 12:13 pm
norway401:

Wish you had not started this post. We had our elections last night in Canada and as expected another Conservative Minority Government ( although they did gain seats ).

On either side of the Border , only a dreamer ( voter ) could really beleive that taxes are not on the way up. Forgot the promises at best just outright BS , the governments are not going to be able to afford the give aways. Now to the situation at hand ..... increased User Fees ( taxes ) , New Taxes ( something they forgot or missed the last time ) and increases on Income Taxes in some way ( no/smaller allowable deductions ).
Governments WILL HAVE a Revenue shortfall , the only question is how can they creatively get more from the taxpayer.
 
Well stated norway!
13% of our GDP is represented as State & Local revenue, "ad volorem" and mil rates are on the way up as we post.
Oct 15, 2008 12:45 pm

Walking ....agree for client that is self employed and is able to expense off many items that the salaried client is unable to expense. That has been always my thoughts/opinion and a matter that is dealt with by Accountant/Client and other professionals that are working to assist the self employed client. The problem for the employee is the mounting tax burden and the inability to find tax shelters and allowable deductions.

 
Liquid....correct ALL LEVELS of government are like " a beast that needs to be fed ". The other problem that has been created is that Federal , Provincial/State are continuing their drive to download costs to the next level and the Municipal Governments are the last in line and now are under huge pressure from downloading. The end of story ....only one tax payer and that is you and me. So taxes get passed on or downloaded to the junior level of govwernment ie. municipal. The Tax Payer I suspect is simply exhausted and angry with the increase tax burdens being put on them.
Oct 15, 2008 1:20 pm

Norway, I was talking about us.


In my experience, most business owners have a better purpose for their own money than our (boring) investments.
 
My guess is, after the launching of the Great Obama Socialist State, the common people will become resentful of government workers, and taxation with representation in general.
 
Conservatives need to "reset" from the un Republican behaviours of the Bush Era.
Oct 15, 2008 1:41 pm

I assumed that Walking , be assured that my Accountant does whatever he is able to do with the Tax Laws. He was a Tax Auditor with Revenue Canada prior to opening his own practice. Everything that is available to deduct is done.

It does seem crazy that despite the increase in personal income and wealth ....the shall we say Left Leaning voters do not comprehend that with increased demands from the tax payers the response is to simply bribe them with whatever program ( fill in the blank/s ) there is a cost....more taxes. The other issue is more government control.
Oct 15, 2008 1:50 pm

Yeah, ignorance is bliss. That's why a democracy, or say the Republic, sucks sometimes. My own take on your country, though, is that it is a vast country with a relatively small population and many natural resources. Therefore, you can afford to flirt with socialism. Maybe you should bail out of big business :).

Oct 15, 2008 2:17 pm

Walking , I think most Americans would be surprised ( my relatives always are surprised ) despite the myth how we are as a country are not very left leaning. In most part the major difference between the U.S and Canada is 1) Education Costs and 2) Health Care. The basic premise here is that in theory ( I point out in theory only ) Education and Health Care is part of the social contract. I can assure you that most people have additional Health Care Plans and the better Colleges do cost more. In other words an erosion has happened over time.

In virtually every other significant matter we are VERY similar , I guess that is why we are each other's best customers and have a very real common interest that we share versus other countries/regions.
Oct 15, 2008 2:30 pm

Yes, your statement is an eye opener, Norway. I have some extended family that are citizens of your great nation, and when they come for holidays they are always giving us a hard time about the capitalist system here.


And we are all on the left coast, so, for example, it seems some views about pot and such are even more liberal the farther north you go, up to that beautiful island and city which some Canadians call " the Hawaii of Canada".
 

So that colors my view, in fact, there must be a few left-leaners everywhere. But I have always been left with the impression in talking with our Canadian family members that Canada wants and probably should be given more respect by its U. S. cousins.
 
It may seem trite, your entire nation has just become elevated a little in my mind. Demonstrates the importance of (even cyber space) personal contact.
Oct 15, 2008 3:03 pm

Without going in to a lot of specifics , in my work history have worked for only American Mult-Nationals , served with and worked with the U.S. Army extensively.

I think that Canadians feel ( some people ) that with the U.S. to our south we are overshadowed. Ask how people from New Zealand feel about being neighbours of Australia or how the countries around Germany feel. I never got it but some people travel on a different road.
If you are referencing British Columbia ( our Lotus Land ) versus California ( your La La Land ) they are just on a different wave length. Must be the weather.
My economic , social and political interests are directed to the U.S. , not as perhaps perceived to the U.K. and frankly most people I know have the same opinion.
Oct 15, 2008 3:06 pm
walking9:
 
Therefore, put money in your Roth and never again pay taxes. Money is a good muni bond fund is "what you see, what you get". Social Security will "be there", or there will be a social disorder - but if you delay taking it, and work a little longer, we can reduce the amount you need to save, or trickle money out of your retirement plans and stay under the (increasingly oppressive) tax radar.
 
What we do now - how we position your investments - will have a huge impact on how much you pay in taxes later on. And given the financial problems (of just Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid - which WILL have the remain in place), it really doesn't matter who gets elected.
 

 
That's great - unless they ultimately impose a national consumption tax like in Canada (and do not provide for ROTH tax credits).  I lived there for 2 years.  National health care (sucked), Federal Sales Tax (GST), Provincial Sales tax (PST), city liquor tax (or maybe provincial?? - can't remember), and ridiculous income and payroll taxes.
 
If you think it couldn't happen, just take a brief look at your national headlines for the past 2 weeks.  Feds as business owners?  Scary. 
Oct 15, 2008 3:20 pm

B24 .....my point , Governments are like Feeding Machines. I have a Medical Program ( paid for by employees ) that provides ie. Medical , Prescriptions , Dental ,Hospital etc. that pays for anything above the basic provisions provided by the Province. As to GST ( Federal ) and PST ( Provincial ) Sales Taxes what can I say " Feed The Machine ". On Booze , Cigarettes , Lotteries & Gambling .....an absolute money machine for the Provinces and federal Government. The theory ( again theory ) is a USER TAX. If you don't drink , smoke or gamble you don't pay. Not defending in any way just the Tax Man's theory.

When we are in the U.S. I always note paying taxes on groceries or city/municpal taxes on gas or hotels as different....and the Tax Machine looks for more. Family in the States pay for things that ie. Fire Department .
Oct 15, 2008 3:36 pm

That's great perspective, Norway. I lived overseas for a few years in a couple of different countries. I am shocked how provincial I must have become - slowly, over the years - since my return.

Oct 15, 2008 3:58 pm

Walking ....I thinks that is  age setting in!!! Amazing when you are at College or just starting out in life. No mortgage , no wife and children , no expenses .....you can afford to be Liberal.

Or if you are one of the Elite , you can afford to be left leaning as long as it doesn't impact your lifestyle. Like the idiots from Hollywood - we love green , we hate oil , we love everyone , we would not fight anyone ( Give Peace a Chance ). As they fly in Private Jets , stay a exclusive resorts/hotels/homes that can keep the " little people away from them ". As to Give Peace A Chance ....let somebody else do the fighting and dirty work for me and then be critical. Funny how being wealthy and being an elitist works. I have always laughed about the Hollywood crowd and their supporting Politicans. Like I really could care less about their endorsement of anyone.....and Clooney , Pitt or anyone else have some perspective that the average American or Canadian doesn't have. Bull Shit.
Oct 15, 2008 4:18 pm

Big time, hah, I love how the Elite create their own suffering, and want to help us them endure and end suffering!

 
As as student of philosophy, I deduce that many of these idealogies boil down to avoidance of work or guilt about success, an inheritance from mom and dad, etc.
 
Capitalism is an affirmation (kind of like believing in God, you can't prove it, per se, you just do it. )
 
Elitism is another kind of godless affirmation that largely embodies the avoidance or negation of any (real) work.
Oct 15, 2008 4:28 pm

Avoidance being the operative word. I think that means be responsible for your actions. There is a smug attitude amongst the Elite that is in my mind very offensive. They somehow rule by divine right and they have the solution/s to all the ills of the world.

As they drive away in their Jag , to their retreat ( home ) that has security and is gated. I think if you were referencing say a Third World Dictator all this sounds very similar. Let's say Hugo Chavez the People's President of Venezuela.