[quote=joedabrkr] [quote=brothaK]does the stress and all the anoyances differ from the independents to the wirehouses?
I'm assuming everyone who is hating on their job is in a wirehouse (ML SB MS)

and all independents love their jobs and couldnt be more happier.
[/quote]

I am happy as an independent.  There is still plenty of stress, and the workload is nothing to sniff at.  It is, perhaps, higher than being at a wire.

The difference, I suppose, is that I don't have others imposing their priorities on me, except perhaps my clients.  No sales manager or branch manager pushing their goals or 'favored vendors' on me.  No endless useless meetings.  In the end, I decide how to deal with things and what issues to address first.  And....it's MINE.

So much of the stress from being in a wirehouse came from a few sources-
1.) Having people who really knew NOTHING about my clients or what it was like to be on the front lines push their priorities, programs, and products at me.
2.)  The difficulty of getting approval to spend money when needed to address issues.
3.) Bureaucratic compliance people.
4.)  The feeling of being 'trapped', that it was difficult to get out and be in a better situation.
5.)  The constant threat that assistance would be withheld if certain goals weren't met.

I don't have to deal with any of that crap now.  So, even if I have to work a little harder sometimes it's just fine by me.
[/quote]

You're wrong, your clients fit a profile that is common to lots of other clients.  You're also wrong when you declare that those who supervise have never been there themselves.  Very few sales managers, branch managers and regional managers have not come up through the ranks.

Difficulty spending money to address issues?  What does that mean?  What did you want to spend money on that somebody else vetoed?

Bureaucratic compliance people?  If there is any area of a brokerage firm that cannot be run "loosey goosey" it is the compliance area.  It is a common complaint among the sales force that they'd be able to sell a lot easier if there were not so many rules.  But there are rules and those who insist that they be followed are not the enemy.

Trapped?  The fact that you broke away and became Independent is proof that nobody is trapped.

What are examples of help that is withheld?

From what I see an INDY can be very busy. It is obvious that one would not choose this route till they are established.

Also being INDY is similar to opening a new business. When the phone rings you need to be there.

Do most INDY's offer everything from business development, taxation, mortgages, insurance, wealth and investment advice (personal & corporate)? From what I see they do or have refferals to get a cut.

The bottom line is like a small business there is huge gratification with developing and building something that is yours. Also no one to take your cut of the pie or stand by your desk to get the new sales numbers. Also it is nice to have the flexibility to push any product on the earth (obviously following the due diligence and compliance rules).

The major problem to going indy is survival. If 9 out of 10 fail (first year or two) then you need experience and a customer base (that will transfer). As I see it you have limited marketing and support compared to the large firms (training & time).. Any expense is coming out of your pocket.  EVERYTHING STATED here is from 2.5 years of observation and inquiries.

I went from a bank to indy last summer and can tell you that I agree with most of what 7 & Joe had said above (and 7...I appreciate the disclaimer you are putting in your posts.  If you don't, Joe will quickly hammer you back into your rightful place, eh, Joe?!!).  To elaborate, yes, being indy is a very rewarding career move for me after a whopping nine months in the business.  I have less than half the assets ($22 million thus far), yet make every bit as much money as I did before.

I also know the pain of trying to get money spent in a bureaucratic organization that watches every penny and cannot see past those pennies to the real dollars saved/earned by making modest investments.  As an indy, I have made those investments and am now reaping the benefits of things such as a Plantronics CS50 wireless headset.  I have no doubt that the $150 spent has been reaped several times over in efficiencies of being able to talk while I am going down the hall to retrieve files, etc., and the beauty is, I didn't have to cost-justify a thing...I just bought it.  Likewise for the 24" flat screen TV (less than $200) in the corner of my office with the CNBC ticker running all day long.  I don't think there is anything I could have said to my old employer to get such a thing in my office...they would have been scared to death that I might waste a few of their precious minutes during the work week.  Now, when clients call in and want to know what is going on, I can quickly tell them without spending all day glued to the tube.  The benefits of appearing on top of things is hard to measure, but valuable...I'm convinced of that.

...and yes, BEF is correct that for the most part, we aren't really trapped.  At the same time, while I wasn't trapped in the end, I felt trapped while I worked there, and it was only through much effort, money and perseverance that I was able to make the jump.  It is also my understanding that my former employer made several moves after I and others left to make it much more difficult to make the jump, so if I felt trapped then, I'm confident that those who stayed feel doubly trapped now.

At the same time, indy is absolutely not for everyone. 7 makes some great points (especially for a rook ) about survival and the need for experience.  In addition, being a do-it-yourselfer plays a big part in you success as an indy.  I'm also a CPA, so I take care of my own payroll, file my own corporate tax return, etc.  Much of what would otherwise be fairly costly (especially in the beginning) was done at no cost, other than my time.  Office administration is not difficult fo me, but if you are a natural salesman, and admin is not your strong suit, you may not be well-suited to make the transition to indy, unless your practice is large enough out of the gate to hire someone to take care of all the admin stuff.  For many folks in the biz, the support is worth the cost in lost payout.  With what I can do (and did do in the bank setting) fo myself, a 40% (or even 50%) payout seems like a rip-off.

For me, ther's no question I'm happier, but that doesn't mean that everyone would be.  It would be interesting to hear from someone who went indy and regretted it...surely those folks exist also?!!

[quote=7GOD63]

From what I see an INDY can be very busy. It is obvious that one would not choose this route till they are established.[/quote]

how about independent COMPANIES    working for them, starting with them… etc

Second that... Would like to hear from an INDY that regretted it? Or the negatives of going Indy?

I am sure there are people who went back....  For sure it seems the large firms are doing everything they can to protect from defecting. Looking at their revenues I don't see these "defectors" (firm view) are effecting the bottom line.

As for the current trend of new people wanting to go INDY... I think it is damn near impossible. If I was Indy with 20-100m AUM I would never hire someone over an assistant or fully qualified RR. The risk is just to high. Maybe someone with a solid background (integrity, networking, MBA and diverse business experience) could be worth a shot, but in general a new college grad no way. Maybe pay for an assistant with BA to help with everything from presentations to thank you/follow up letters, but nothing risky (direct client interaction for years).  

Has anyone here went INDY with no experience? Right out of college?

Haaaaa... Just figured out name INDY-ONE.

BrothaK.. my opinion is based on common sense.. If I were making 100- 150bp on 10-150 million why would one want to waste time (limited as it is) on a project. Equation of income is anywhere from 100k to  1.5 million (- expenses) yearly.

If you spent a few years with a big firm (obtain clients and skills) and could prove to me then I would think about this... EVERYTHING I say here is based on my position 3 years from today.

Now there is the possiblility that a growing Indy could use an assistant to bring in the money, but then how would they pay? And if they are growing why would they require someone who knows nothing to assist. Remember that one can study the 7 and in reality they know nothing. Sorta like a tech school student in the Navy who spends a year on electronics systems. When they get out you have have to help and monitor them soldering a capacitor.

[quote=7GOD63]

From what I see an INDY can be very busy. It is obvious that one would not choose this route till they are established.

Also being INDY is similar to opening a new business. When the phone rings you need to be there.

Do most INDY's offer everything from business development, taxation, mortgages, insurance, wealth and investment advice (personal & corporate)? From what I see they do or have refferals to get a cut.

The bottom line is like a small business there is huge gratification with developing and building something that is yours. Also no one to take your cut of the pie or stand by your desk to get the new sales numbers. Also it is nice to have the flexibility to push any product on the earth (obviously following the due diligence and compliance rules).

The major problem to going indy is survival. If 9 out of 10 fail (first year or two) then you need experience and a customer base (that will transfer). As I see it you have limited marketing and support compared to the large firms (training & time).. Any expense is coming out of your pocket.  EVERYTHING STATED here is from 2.5 years of observation and inquiries.

[quote=Big Easy Flood]

[quote=joedabrkr] [quote=brothaK]does the stress and all the anoyances differ from the independents to the wirehouses?
I’m assuming everyone who is hating on their job is in a wirehouse (ML SB MS)

and all independents love their jobs and couldnt be more happier.
[/quote]

I am happy as an independent.  There is still plenty of stress, and the workload is nothing to sniff at.  It is, perhaps, higher than being at a wire.

The difference, I suppose, is that I don’t have others imposing their priorities on me, except perhaps my clients.  No sales manager or branch manager pushing their goals or ‘favored vendors’ on me.  No endless useless meetings.  In the end, I decide how to deal with things and what issues to address first.  And…it’s MINE.

So much of the stress from being in a wirehouse came from a few sources-
1.) Having people who really knew NOTHING about my clients or what it was like to be on the front lines push their priorities, programs, and products at me.
2.)  The difficulty of getting approval to spend money when needed to address issues.
3.) Bureaucratic compliance people.
4.)  The feeling of being ‘trapped’, that it was difficult to get out and be in a better situation.
5.)  The constant threat that assistance would be withheld if certain goals weren’t met.

I don’t have to deal with any of that crap now.  So, even if I have to work a little harder sometimes it’s just fine by me.
[/quote]

You're wrong, your clients fit a profile that is common to lots of other clients.  You're also wrong when you declare that those who supervise have never been there themselves.  Very few sales managers, branch managers and regional managers have not come up through the ranks.

Difficulty spending money to address issues?  What does that mean?  What did you want to spend money on that somebody else vetoed?

Bureaucratic compliance people?  If there is any area of a brokerage firm that cannot be run "loosey goosey" it is the compliance area.  It is a common complaint among the sales force that they'd be able to sell a lot easier if there were not so many rules.  But there are rules and those who insist that they be followed are not the enemy.

Trapped?  The fact that you broke away and became Independent is proof that nobody is trapped.

What are examples of help that is withheld?

[quote=Indyone]

I went from a bank to indy last summer and can tell you that I agree with most of what 7 & Joe had said above (and 7…I appreciate the disclaimer you are putting in your posts.  If you don’t, Joe will quickly hammer you back into your rightful place, eh, Joe?!!).  To elaborate, yes, being indy is a very rewarding career move for me after a whopping nine months in the business.  I have less than half the assets ($22 million thus far), yet make every bit as much money as I did before.

I also know the pain of trying to get money spent in a bureaucratic organization that watches every penny and cannot see past those pennies to the real dollars saved/earned by making modest investments.  As an indy, I have made those investments and am now reaping the benefits of things such as a Plantronics CS50 wireless headset.  I have no doubt that the $150 spent has been reaped several times over in efficiencies of being able to talk while I am going down the hall to retrieve files, etc., and the beauty is, I didn't have to cost-justify a thing...I just bought it.  Likewise for the 24" flat screen TV (less than $200) in the corner of my office with the CNBC ticker running all day long.  I don't think there is anything I could have said to my old employer to get such a thing in my office...they would have been scared to death that I might waste a few of their precious minutes during the work week.  Now, when clients call in and want to know what is going on, I can quickly tell them without spending all day glued to the tube.  The benefits of appearing on top of things is hard to measure, but valuable...I'm convinced of that.

...and yes, BEF is correct that for the most part, we aren't really trapped.  At the same time, while I wasn't trapped in the end, I felt trapped while I worked there, and it was only through much effort, money and perseverance that I was able to make the jump.  It is also my understanding that my former employer made several moves after I and others left to make it much more difficult to make the jump, so if I felt trapped then, I'm confident that those who stayed feel doubly trapped now.

At the same time, indy is absolutely not for everyone. 7 makes some great points (especially for a rook ) about survival and the need for experience.  In addition, being a do-it-yourselfer plays a big part in you success as an indy.  I'm also a CPA, so I take care of my own payroll, file my own corporate tax return, etc.  Much of what would otherwise be fairly costly (especially in the beginning) was done at no cost, other than my time.  Office administration is not difficult fo me, but if you are a natural salesman, and admin is not your strong suit, you may not be well-suited to make the transition to indy, unless your practice is large enough out of the gate to hire someone to take care of all the admin stuff.  For many folks in the biz, the support is worth the cost in lost payout.  With what I can do (and did do in the bank setting) fo myself, a 40% (or even 50%) payout seems like a rip-off.

For me, ther's no question I'm happier, but that doesn't mean that everyone would be.  It would be interesting to hear from someone who went indy and regretted it...surely those folks exist also?!!

[quote=joedabrkr]

No fool, you are wrong.  But I rather suspect you are a firmly entrenched member of the professional wirehouse bureauracracy, so I would expect your answer to be as such.  You're living off the teats of the organization, so you defend it.

Our compliance department is far more progressive and business oriented than the one I faced at UBS.  Yet, they are not foolish.  Too, I have my 24 and am fully aware of my responsibilities, rather than being 'lectured' by an overpaid political hack such as a wirehouse branch manager.

Yes many of those in supervision in the wires were once in production.  Very few of them were successful in production, however, or they never would have gone into management.  Rather, they were surviving but mediocre, and picked as being 'good potential management material'.  (See my references above to 'political hacks'.  Add a dose of paper shuffling and 'mouthpiece for upper management' and you get the picture.)

Difficult to spend money?  Yep.  You bet.  Especially if your branch manager is trying to hit is profit goal in the last quarter so he can get his bonus and buy a new S-class Mercedes or refinish his kitchen.  Especially if you have a marketing idea that creeps even slightly outside the box.  The wirehouse environment is one that prizes conformity.

No nobody is trapped, but it wasn't easy.  It took over a year of planning, working nights and weekends, while putting on my 'game face' and going to the office and acting like everything was hunky dory.  It was sorta like living in a spy movie.  But, in the end it was worth every bit of it!
[/quote]

Joe, the world is filled with whiners like you. "I coulda done a better job as manager, but they didn't offer it to me" is so common that there are entire books written about it.

The ranks of the Independent channel are filled, absolutely teeming, with men and women who want to run a shop and were not given the chance, so they run their own shop.  I honor that attitude.

But don't deny reality and don't sneer at those who were afforded the opportunity at UBS.  We can't all be given a branch to run, and being your own office is a great alternative.

As for your whining about how long it took to become independent, how much planning you had to do, how hard you had to work.

Somehow I get the image of a lazy broker who was unable to earn enough at UBS so he broke away because of the siren song of a higher payout, only to find that they're actually too lazy to make a living in this business period.

Ever seen statistics on how many ex-wirehouse brokers who left for the Independent channel ended up leaving the business as their next step?

When you're not making it at 37% payout the idea that you would make it at 80% is certainly appealling.  But serious thought needs to be given to the realities of why your gross is not very high in the first place.

[quote=Big Easy Flood]

[quote=joedabrkr]

No fool, you are wrong.  But I rather suspect you are a firmly entrenched member of the professional wirehouse bureauracracy, so I would expect your answer to be as such.  You're living off the teats of the organization, so you defend it.

Our compliance department is far more progressive and business oriented than the one I faced at UBS.  Yet, they are not foolish.  Too, I have my 24 and am fully aware of my responsibilities, rather than being 'lectured' by an overpaid political hack such as a wirehouse branch manager.

Yes many of those in supervision in the wires were once in production.  Very few of them were successful in production, however, or they never would have gone into management.  Rather, they were surviving but mediocre, and picked as being 'good potential management material'.  (See my references above to 'political hacks'.  Add a dose of paper shuffling and 'mouthpiece for upper management' and you get the picture.)

Difficult to spend money?  Yep.  You bet.  Especially if your branch manager is trying to hit is profit goal in the last quarter so he can get his bonus and buy a new S-class Mercedes or refinish his kitchen.  Especially if you have a marketing idea that creeps even slightly outside the box.  The wirehouse environment is one that prizes conformity.

No nobody is trapped, but it wasn't easy.  It took over a year of planning, working nights and weekends, while putting on my 'game face' and going to the office and acting like everything was hunky dory.  It was sorta like living in a spy movie.  But, in the end it was worth every bit of it!
[/quote]

Joe, the world is filled with whiners like you. "I coulda done a better job as manager, but they didn't offer it to me" is so common that there are entire books written about it.

But don't deny reality and don't sneer at those who were afforded the opportunity at UBS.  We can't all be given a branch to run, and being your own office is a great alternative.

As for your whining about how long it took to become independent, how much planning you had to do, how hard you had to work.

Left again with nothing intelligent to say, you once again accuse me of whining.  I gather this is a frequent dilemma for you, and thus a frequently used tactic. In keeping with the discussion on this thread, I was merely pointing out that going indy was no walk in the park...it was a challenge that required hard work and forethought to overcome.  So how is that whining?

Somehow I get the image of a lazy broker who was unable to earn enough at UBS so he broke away because of the siren song of a higher payout, only to find that they're actually too lazy to make a living in this business period.

Ok so now not only am I a whiner, but I'm also lazy?  Then why would I have done all the work to set up my own shop?  OH that's right I'm looking for 'the easy way out'.  You crack me up. 

Ever seen statistics on how many ex-wirehouse brokers who left for the Independent channel ended up leaving the business as their next step?

When you're not making it at 37% payout the idea that you would make it at 80% is certainly appealling.  But serious thought needs to be given to the realities of why your gross is not very high in the first place.

And how do you know how high or low my gross is?

[quote=joedabrkr]

Somehow I get the image of a lazy broker who was unable to earn enough at UBS so he broke away because of the siren song of a higher payout, only to find that they're actually too lazy to make a living in this business period.

Ok so now not only am I a whiner, but I'm also lazy?  Then why would I have done all the work to set up my own shop?  OH that's right I'm looking for 'the easy way out'.  You crack me up. 

Ever seen statistics on how many ex-wirehouse brokers who left for the Independent channel ended up leaving the business as their next step?

When you're not making it at 37% payout the idea that you would make it at 80% is certainly appealling.  But serious thought needs to be given to the realities of why your gross is not very high in the first place.

And how do you know how high or low my gross is?
[/quote]

I know who you are generically.  I have no idea what your name is, but I have known hundreds of guys just like you.

As I said, the siren song of a huge payout is very attractive when you're convinced that the problem is that your broker/dealer is being unfair with you.

Every year RR magazine profiles some of the business's "Big Hitters."  Most are with the wirehouses.

Why do you suppose a $5 million dollar producer is not bright enough to understand what a bad deal working for a wirehouse is?

Hey Flood...where do Ron Carson ($5 million) and Robert Fragasso ($3 million) work?

I'll give you a hint...they are indies with the same B/D that Joe & I use...

[quote=Indyone]

Hey Flood...where do Ron Carson ($5 million) and Robert Fragasso ($3 million) work?

I'll give you a hint...they are indies with the same B/D that Joe & I use...

[/quote]

I don't recall saying that no big hitters go independent.

What I asked was why they don't all go independent if working for a wirehouse is such a mistake?

[quote=Indyone]

Hey Flood...where do Ron Carson ($5 million) and Robert Fragasso ($3 million) work?

I'll give you a hint...they are indies with the same B/D that Joe & I use...

[/quote]

Indy, I know Todd Robinson, Todd Robinson is a friend of mine.

You, sir, are no Todd Robinson.

[quote=Big Easy Flood][quote=Indyone]

Hey Flood...where do Ron Carson ($5 million) and Robert Fragasso ($3 million) work?

I'll give you a hint...they are indies with the same B/D that Joe & I use...

[/quote]

Indy, I know Todd Robinson, Todd Robinson is a friend of mine.

You, sir, are no Todd Robinson.[/quote]

I don't have any designs of being Todd Robinson.  I'm quite happy with the growing business I own.  I somehow doubt that you're as tight with him as you'd like us to believe, but then this is no different than a lot of name dropping by Put in the past...

Put, you're dating yourself with that tired old political gem.

[quote=Indyone]

Put, you're dating yourself with that tired old political gem.

[/quote]

Gems never lose their impact.

"You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time" has been around for a long time too.

Golden Oldies.

WAIT, Indy you never explained why the vast majority of wirehouse big hitters do not leave to become independent.

I'll do that when you tell me about all the independent big hitters leaving for the wirehouse...

At any rate, all you've shown me thus far is anecdotal evidence of this.  Assuming you are at least for the most part correct (which I'm not quite ready to buy unless you have an independent study proving it), my guess is mostly inertia.  if you are grossing, say $3 million and netting half of that, how much money do you need?  Some would make the leap for the extra $750K/year, but most are probably too busy minding thei books to consider that.  Many are probably fine investment managers, but do not possess the tools, skills or the patience to run their own businesses.  I was quite content myself until management starting sh*tting on me and the other producers on a variety of matters.  It was only then that I discovered the possibilties that go along with running an independent practice.

Next week, I'm going to Ron Carson's seminar (on a wholesaler's dime) to learn his secrets to success in running an independent practice...my guess is that you folks aren't actively promoting this seminar and there won't be many wirehouse advisors in the audience...

[quote=Big Easy Flood][quote=Indyone]

Hey Flood...where do Ron Carson ($5 million) and Robert Fragasso ($3 million) work?

I'll give you a hint...they are indies with the same B/D that Joe & I use...

[/quote]

Indy, I know Todd Robinson, Todd Robinson is a friend of mine.

You, sir, are no Todd Robinson.