EDJ...30 months out and wanting out
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monopolybet,
Ok, I watch these forums and am rarely inspired to respond to things said here, but I feel compelled by some of things things being said. Monopolybet, this business is very hard. Starting any business is grueling work that can tear your guts out when things don't go well. This is why most small businesses fail. This is nothing to be ashamed of. Most very successful people have failed multiple times. The people on this forum that act like they have never failed is surprising. Who here has not failed at something in their lives? If you haven't your either lying or just plain lucky. However, I also agree with ytrewq in that you cannot blame other people for your failure. You have to learn from it and make yourself better. You have to regain your resolve, fix your mistakes, and get back to work. EDJ is what it is, there will always be excuses. You have survived in this business longer than a lot of people and you should reflect, learn, stop worrying about failure (and Edward Jones), and start planning how to make yourself more successful.
[quote=monopolybet]
Oh, where a little statment can lead. I think the reason so many edj brokers leave is they are not making it financially...I came in with a years worth of extra money to help me get through...I say it is way more then the money. The new broker is out on his own.. at the beginning.he does know the difference between a roth and a trad, a fixed or a variable annuity let alone how to use a portfolio system that does not even know which mutual fund is which. (have you tried to rebalance a por folio lately?...it takes 2 years to know to use another system like instant xray...to understand what you should be doing...then you ad a crazy market. There is very little help because the guy who recruited you is out of the country on the diversification trip you won for them by blindly following them.. thinking this was an easy job,,just go and and knock a few doors till you find some one who knows less then you do!!" I quess I am saying I am over my head!!! I do not know what to do!!! I owe them for the training that I never got, or how to really make it in this business, how to really be a financial advisor....
Maybe I can go back out and knock a few doors and NOT talk about financials......(now I feel a little better!!)[/quote] First, let me say that I believe EDJ does a horrible job teaching advisors how to properly build portfolios. As far as I know, there isn't a training class that teaches you what a non correlating asset is and why you should use it. Jones is pretty happy for all new advisors to take one of the "model portfolios" from one of the vendors and have you use that all day long. That's why every wholesaler out there has his/her four pack or Checks & Balances type of a presentation. It's simple for the advisor to understand, simple to pass on to clients in a quick meeting and not a lot of moving parts. So, Jones, being the simple company that they have been in their history, likes to keep it this way. So, the more I kept losing accounts to guys at Morgan, or ugh, Amex because they'd show my clients X-Ray or some other version of that, the more I realized that I was woefully unprepared to do battle with those guys. I could have no more explained alpha or std dev than the man in the moon. But, I felt it was important to me and my clients to understand those concepts, so I called on a few vets in my region, bought them lunch, and had them teach me how to use something like X-Ray to build a portfolio. Then, I called my Goldman wholesaler and had him explain it to me again. Then I called Scott Thoma (who now runs Advisory Solutions) and had several conversations with him. All of that led me to several conclusions. First, if I ever get to be a GP I want to create a training program for all of those people out there like me who really want to understand what they're doing. Second, I don't want to be an analyst. While I enjoy the numbers, I just don't have the time or energy to put that much work into it. If I'm going to keep advising I'd rather get my CFP than my CFA. Third, my portfolios were horrible. I love American Funds, but you just can't build a solid portfolio using one fund family. Not to withstand a time like this. Fourth, once Advisory Solutions came out, if I could pass off the day to day management to a program like that my clients will be better off for it in the long run. It takes hours to properly work through the FAST tools and get everything the right way. If I can build a business going forward around a fee based platform that where I don't have to worry so much about paying the bills, perhaps my clients will get the attention they deserve. New client acquisition becomes a function of wanting to grow my paycheck, not create one for this month. My mentor can't help me do that. Home office can't do it for me either. It's up to me. I can do it at Jones or I can do it at LPL or MER or the bank. But I still have to do it.[quote=monopolybet]
Oh, where a little statment can lead. I think the reason so many edj brokers leave is they are not making it financially...I came in with a years worth of extra money to help me get through...I say it is way more then the money. The new broker is out on his own.. at the beginning.he does know the difference between a roth and a trad, a fixed or a variable annuity let alone how to use a portfolio system that does not even know which mutual fund is which. (have you tried to rebalance a por folio lately?...it takes 2 years to know to use another system like instant xray...to understand what you should be doing...then you ad a crazy market. There is very little help because the guy who recruited you is out of the country on the diversification trip you won for them by blindly following them.. thinking this was an easy job,,just go and and knock a few doors till you find some one who knows less then you do!!" I quess I am saying I am over my head!!! I do not know what to do!!! I owe them for the training that I never got, or how to really make it in this business, how to really be a financial advisor....
Maybe I can go back out and knock a few doors and NOT talk about financials......(now I feel a little better!!)[/quote] Hey Sunshine, you're obviously not cut out for this business. You should cut your losses and go work for a salary somewhere. You think independants have it any better? You think LPL or RayJay is holding FA's hands through this? You think Merrill or SB is letting their FA's cry on their shoulders? Pull up your bootstraps Boy and toughen up. Nobody said your BD was going to feed you leads, or walk you through each appointment, or help you cold call or cold walk. Don't try to divert the topic by talking about some stupid trip that your recruiter is on. He earned it by his own hard work, not from recruiting your sorry a$$. And we all went through the training, so we know that's also a bull$hit argument. Personally, I don't expect much from Jones. I expect my computer to work, my phone to work, and to be able to enter trades. Everything else is on me. Face it, whether you get a W2 or K1 income doesn't really matter. It's YOUR business. That's how it is in almost all sales professions. Build it or lose it. There's more than enough resources online, in books, and through other veterans. If you expect your BD to teach you everything there is to know about selling, and every possible method of prospecting, you're going to fail. And to be honest, Jones has far more resources for this than I would even expect. And if you can't figure out how to use Portfolio or Morningstar or Sungard, then you are just a dumba$$. Good luck.“I love American Funds, but you just can’t build a solid portfolio using one fund family. Not to withstand a time like this.”
Spiff, just a sidenote - nobody builds portfolios to withstand a time like this. Even the non-correlating assets have declined considerably. Unless you somehow knew this was all going to happen, and you managed to get everything into cash or international bonds BEFORE the meltdown, you were SOL. In a "traditional" bear market, AMF does very well, as would many other balanced protfolios, multiple fund families or not. You can't really build a portfolio that will preapre you for a state of de-leveraging where supply far outstrips demand in nearly all asset classes. Personally, I think Jones' problem is that they do TOO MUCH hand-holding - to the extent that FA's rely almost exclusively on them for all of their information and training. That's a big mistake. I spend probably 1-2 hours every night after everyone goes to bed just reading and researching the industry - investment theory, asset allocation, economic theory, practice management, client acquisition, you name it. No one firm has the market on all good ideas (sound familiar?). It's important in this business to think for yourself and develop your own ideas and your own personal "brand" or identity - not just be a kool-aide drinker. I like the firm, but it by no means defines me. Sorry, I digressed a bit.[quote=iceco1d]
By the way Putsy - Primo and I are still patiently waiting for responses to our questions...or are you just going to take your 37 years of experience and bail to a new thread each time someone paints you into a corner?[/quote]
It is not possible for me to be painted into a corner. The only question that I can recall ignoring was the idiotic one asking me how I am paid.
I have been explaining, on this forum, that I am living on a six figure wirehouse pension. However, if I were an advisor I would resign rather than engage in the fraud that involves raping clients for 100 to 200 bps because nobody is worth that much for doing virually nothing that an adult of average intelligence could not do for themselves.
In short, I believe that the business model in use today is fraud. I argued that when I was in a position to be heard but was overruled. Part of my argument was that the law suits will come out of the woodwork when the market declines.
I believe that more than ever right now. I suggest that all over the country there are plaintiff attorneys licking their chops. It is almost impossible to justify the fee structure, and now that arbitration panels are no longer required to have industry representation there won't be voices to try to represent your point of view.
I have been explaining, on this forum, that I am living on a six figure wirehouse pension.
Consider taking some math classes at the local junior college. You accuse the fee-only model of rape at 1%, which is a gross charge before expenses. Along with ETFs, you are looking at something like 1.25% - 1.5% total asset management costs to the client. Your little six-figure pension cost more than that to the clients, old mother hen Putz. So far, you've made anecdotal claims to superior portfolio management (beating the market over a long period of time) which we all know is probably bs. Certainly not a sustainable model for an industry of retail advisors. You kind of remind me of the six figure retired school principal client I have who doesn't mind paying his taxes. You're both socialists (witness your proposal for a base and bonus arrangement for the wirehouses which continues to reward management and the ivory tower) - except he doesn't whine - he's grateful. You can't handle the free market finally aligning best interests and best practices for both client and advisor. I was posting here two years ago about this topic - with regards to industry ethics, I can't believe it is finally happening. This is a pretty boring business, but the pace of change is exciting! It's more fun to go with the flow.[quote=Getthere]
Your little six-figure pension cost more than that to the clients[/quote]
Nonsense. My pension is the result of more than thirty years of service to the employer. When I was asked to do something I did it, and did it well. As a result my annual compensation increased and along with that so did my retirement benefits.
My former clients are not paying my pension, nor are anyhbody else's current clients. Retail clients do not generate enough to cover the cost of running a retail effort--there is not a major firm that would not be delighted to do away with retail brokerage.
What is fraud is the idea that a salesman who just happned to be there when a client made a decision should be entitled to an ongoing share of that client's account. Would you think it fair if you had to pay an annual fee of 1.5% of your home's value to the real estate agent whose sign happened to be in the yard when you saw the house?
I suspect you're thinking, "Hell no, I paid that comission when I bought the house."
Well, I feel the same way about clients and their investments. They should pay a sales charge when they buy whatever they buy, and they should pay a sales charge if they add to that investment.
If what an "advisor" does is truly valuable let the funds that the "advisor" rearranges from time to time surrender part of their management fee to the "advisor." It's fraudulent for the fund to charge a management fee and the "advisor" to also stick their hands into the honey pot.
As I've said, I have been instrumental in the employment of thousands of registered people. If I were to make a list of those who were more than sales people who think of this as a "good gig" instead of a profession it would not fill a single page.
Sales people should be paid for making the sale--anything that skews that into something else is going to be thought of as fraud by those whose assets declined because their "advisor" had no idea what to do.
If you were a client who was down $100,000 and an attorney says to you, "If you want I'll sue them for you. If you don't win all you'll have to pay me is a few dollars for copies but nothing for my time. However, if you win I wll take 1/3rd of what you win as my fee.
In short you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. What do you say?"
Very few clients will not say, "Let's go for it." They, the client, don't see it as suing you--they're suing your employer or your insurance company. They'll even tell you that it's nothing personal, but they have to be made whole and this gives them a chance.
The attorney will sue for millions in an attempt to settle for hundreds of thousands. When you get the suit you'll read it and not even recognize what they're talking about. You're going to be portrayed as a soldier in an organized crime family--your boss will be a Godfather type and your compliance department will be described as Keystone Cops who were asleep at the switch.
And it will all be because of the entry on the client's statement making bad into worse. You might have avoided it if you had settled for a sales charge when you sold the investments--but that's expected. Nobody thinks they can't lose in the market--but what frosts their arse is the greed of taking a fee for poor or no advice.
I know what I'm talking about--most of you will come to learn it in the next few months.
I know what I’m talking about–most of you will come to learn it in the next few months.
[quote=Getthere]
What I am, Ferris, is the voice of reality. I am speakinig for your clients. The Dows off another 400 points right now.
Do you actually believe that your clients are not thinking about what they can do to get their money back?
Can you imagine what a fool you will appear to be when you're taking the stand to explain your educational background and your investment expertise?
Do you disagree with me--do you think clients are not considering paying an attorney 1/3 in order to get back twice what they lost?
Just becasue there hasn't been a bear market for a generation does not mean that the plaintiff's bar has not been waiting for this opportunity.
If that's discouraging to you, suck it up man. Deal with it.
[quote=iceco1d][quote=B24]“I love American Funds, but you just can’t build a solid portfolio using one fund family. Not to withstand a time like this.”
Spiff, just a sidenote - nobody builds portfolios to withstand a time like this. I disagree. Maybe nobody builds portfolios to produce stellar returns in a time like this, but you can certainly build a portfolio to nicely "withstand" a time like this. ICE, I would love to see it. Not some back-tested portfolio you came up with after the fact. And I am not including income base guarantees on VA's or fixed annuities. I am talking account values (of VA's) and real portfolios. Stocks, bonds, funds, cash, alternatives, etc. A portfolio that was established BEFORE the meltdown. And what would your definition of "withstand" be? A gain? A "small" loss? I am not criticizing our doubting. I am genuinely curious. Even the non-correlating assets have declined considerably. Unless you somehow knew this was all going to happen, and you managed to get everything into cash or international bonds BEFORE the meltdown, you were SOL. In a "traditional" bear market, AMF does very well, as would many other balanced protfolios, multiple fund families or not. I also disagree with Spiff, in that you cannot build a decent portfolio from one fund family. Maybe most, but certainly not all. You can't really build a portfolio that will preapre you for a state of de-leveraging where supply far outstrips demand in nearly all asset classes. Personally, I think Jones' problem is that they do TOO MUCH hand-holding - to the extent that FA's rely almost exclusively on them for all of their information and training. That's a big mistake. I spend probably 1-2 hours every night after everyone goes to bed just reading and researching the industry - investment theory, asset allocation, economic theory, practice management, client acquisition, you name it. No one firm has the market on all good ideas (sound familiar?). It's important in this business to think for yourself and develop your own ideas and your own personal "brand" or identity - not just be a kool-aide drinker. I like the firm, but it by no means defines me. Sorry, I digressed a bit.[/quote] By the way Putsy - Primo and I are still patiently waiting for responses to our questions...or are you just going to take your 37 years of experience and bail to a new thread each time someone paints you into a corner?[/quote][quote=Ferris Bueller]
So I ask you once more, why are you here?[/quote]
Because I can discuss the industry better than anybody else who is here.
If you don't like what I have to say just ignore me. It won't hurt my feelings if the resident moron chooses to ignore me.
Old Mother Putz:
Some of us have been through a down market before, have even dealt with complaints at a b/d after a down market. In fact, that's about the time wrap accounts came around - and what complainers could go after, if the risk tolerance and suitability had been properly documented - was stuff like B shares. It's true, oversight on the wraps has been tightening, hopefully in time to justify the fees some advisors have been charging. Duh. Here is why I think you're a dumb**** hypocrite: you got yours, and now you're sniping from the woods. You're too dumb to know where your pension comes from (or don't want to admit it), and you were too dumb to win the arguement about wrap accounts at your old brokerage. You were too dumb to use the example of Scottrade or e-Trade options trading examples before, and did not mention things likes retail wirehouse costs for such trades, and the fact that these strategies are mainly entertainment for the old and often liberal and wealthy clients who want a lot of touch - like Bond Guy's clients, maybe. And you're too dumb to sit here and try to intimidate experienced professionals (more like the newbies) with you BS. I'm back to my original theory: you learned enough at online forums to BS your way in here. You managed to BS Bond Guy into thinking you're a retired industry veteran. You're too dumb to understand this business, you're an advisor wannabee. Go back to your Yahoo forum, Old Mother Hen Putz.He's real.
Okay, then, I just like to skim here, and get ideas, and practice my writing skill, I don't always pay enough attention.
He's not very bright, you can see why the wirehouses are dying.
Then, at the very least, he a vain old negative man who probably screwed a lot of enthusiastic young people out of their accounts ( by being a vain, old, negative manager), and now he's being a hypocrite by coming here and telling the "truth".
Because, anyone with a basic education (CFP or such would be nice) knows that he's full of BS.
OMHP, if you want to help, go read today's "Horse'smouth" site and come back here with something postitive.
You're pretty weak on the logical stuff, why don't you come back as a cheerleader for the newbies, we'll forgive you for screwing your clients and newbies into a fancy penison.
Meantime, it's just teasing for you: I hope Obama taxes the piss out of your pension. It's excessive dips like you ( and your wirehouse) that helped hasten the current downturn. Enjoy that $50 bottle of whine tonight, you old options trader, you.
B24- I guess my point wasn’t made very well. Jones spends a lot of time and money teaching new FAs how to ring doorbells and make phone calls. They teach them how to use the ICA guide. They teach them the difference between investments, but not how to use them. At least when I was teaching KYC/EG/PDP we didn’t teach those skills. I know that Jones doesn’t really want to have a bunch of CFAs running around with their pocket protectors and their financial calculators, but a little bit of knowledge goes a long way. Who taught you how to structure a portfolio? Was it Jones? Or did you have to figure it out yourself? Jones does a great job of teaching us HOW to sell WHAT we sell. They don’t do a great job of teaching us WHY to sell WHAT we sell.
Ice - My blanket statement of not being able to build a quality portfolio from one fund family was a bit over exaggerated. You certainly can. However, clients will typically be better off in the long run if you open up the options beyond any one fund family.[quote=Ferris Bueller]
He's real. Here's where he fails. He comes here to say he told us so. To tell us that we are going to be in trouble. He comes here to gloat, but he never offers any advice or any help so we can better our situations. He mistakes our dislike of him for us not wanting to hear the truth. We understand our situation better than most, but unless there is something we can do about it, his bs is just that... bs.[/quote]
To an extent that is somewhat accurate. When I was around here eighteen months ago you, and your ilk, were:
1. Sneering about how stupid your clients were to trust you with their money, but that since the market only goes up there was no end to the gravy train.
2. Laughing about how being a high school drop out did not prevent you from making it into a business that is widely thought to only employ college educated professionals.
At that time I was loaded with suggestions on how to hedge a decline. You and your ilk insisted that the magazine block my ability to contribute because I was "negative" even suggesting that the market could decline.
But lo and behold I was right--even more right than I expected to be. I am not here to gloat, although a lesser person certainly would.
Instead I'm here for a second shot at those who are bright enough to listen.
What can you do at this point? The reality is not much other than to attempt to humanize yourself in the eyes of your clients. Far too many of them do not think that bringing an action against you is going to affect you personally--it will.
I think way too much faith has been put in the idea that E & O insurance is going to provide some sort of shield--those policies may not be worth a plug nickle when they issuer is faced with covering billions of dollars in losses. Hell, may not be worth a plug nickle--they won't be worth a plug nickle.
There is a TV ad these days showing an award being handed down in a court and the plaintiff's attorney saying, 'They have savings, investments and their house--we'll find their assets and get them."
If I were one of you posers I'd be scared to death about the impression that will be given when I admit that I don't have a formal education and no real expertise to be offering investment advice.
Arbitration panels are being skewed away from having any industry representation so your fate will be in the hands of three--or five--men or women who value education and when you sit there with your schidt eating grin and claim, "Ain't this business great, I don't have a degree or any formal training yet I made a fortune" they will not think it's funny.
The reality, Ferris, is that you don't belong in this business. You quit school and decisions have consequences. From where I sit if an arbitration panel lifts your ticket and awards so much money to your cleints that you end up living the lifestyle of a college dropout it will be nothing more than Karma.
You should feel free to ignore me--I'm only expressing my opinion to those who are reading it. I dare say a lot of them agree.
As I remember, Jones uses a lot of American Funds at A shares. First of all, just getting to buy them rather than spending the money at the mall is an accomplishment.
Second, you could do a lot worse than buying and holding A shares. You could exchange between stocks and bonds, and get a better return than some old dip trading options on e-Trade. Third, David Kelly, Chief Market Strategist at JPMorgan Funds, says, " I think the trend line is certainly in our favor the have the markets moving higher as opposed to moving lower, at least based on the catalyst from falling oil, from falling interest rates... " David Tice thinks the market may go to 5000. Who knows? Your buy and hold clients will be real clients when you get through this - those who pull out now should stay out of stocks (unless they needed the spending money). Most of the major firms are hot are reps getting the CFP pretty quickly after they are established. It's tough to get new kids in this business, and I think Jones is reputable and doing okay - they make huge investments into training the next generation of advisors.What can you do at this point? The reality is not much other than to attempt to humanize yourself in the eyes of your clients. Far too many of them do not think that bringing an action against you is going to affect you personally–it will.
You, sir, are the one who needs some basic education. If I trusted you, I would my put formal education and professional licenses and industry experience up against you any day. You are a BS'er, you don't even try to prove your claims and your personal attacks are poison to a "selling" environment. You fail to attempt to sustain your negativity with any current industry research, you don't cite any evidence. I'm certain you don't read any industry articles, and if I trusted you, I'd put money on the claim that you don't have your CFP. If you really are experienced, you know what I am talking about. I'll tip my had on my spirituality, though, and tell you why I think you should be banned, assuming you are not really dumb or incredibly needy: evil is real. Old Mother Hen Putz: dismissed. Folks here should call BS on this guy, if it was my forum I'd ban his IP.[quote=Getthere]
if it was my forum I’d ban his IP.[/quote]
How do you feel about that Freedom of Speech deal?
How about burning books.
The Dow is off 520 right now. Do you think your clients are losing faith in your “advice?”
You dumb*** amateur. If I trusted you, I’d say, prove that I don’t manage more money right now than you ever managed.
I don't give a crap if the market goes to zero today. What is your house worth today, if you had to sell it today? Zero. You're just a poser - day trader, addicted to chat forums. I wouldn't advocate the sale of one scrap of stock today, if, God forbid, a major city somewhere in the world was nuked. Given my time in the business, and the amount of money I managed, today has been a perfect day. Not one phone call or email from a client - a huge pay check, - a plenty of time to abuse the likes of you. Back in your hole, Mr. Crab. Old Mother Chicken - you never really worked in this business, you have no scrotum. Now go over to your Google forum, and type in KOL, have some gonads and put in some buy orders, chicken brain.