We are delusional

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Dec 23, 2009 1:50 pm

I've been reading a number of conservative posts. And I will preface my ststements by stating that I am a Vietnam era veteran, and until recently very conservative. But there comes a time when we have to remove the red white and blue glasses and see this country for what it is. To begin with, the most dangerous group in the world right now, is the evangelical christian conservative republican. My reasoning for that statement include two unnecessary wars and our current economic debacle. The idiotic reaction to national healthcare reform is further proof of the foolishness and evil of that group. We consider ourselves to be the strongest military in the world,as if that's something to be proud of. The fact is that we have never won a war, and lost or are losing wars to third world countries for the last 50+ years. We haven't a clue how to deal with other cultures, mainly because we haven't much culture ourselves. We constantly piss and moan about not having enough, while we get fat and sick from having too much. As a country, we have a long way to go. Yet, instead of making real cultural and spiritual headway, we obediently follow self serving demogogues in the name of jesus. Action that would have him turning in his grave.

Dec 23, 2009 2:56 pm
52new:

I've been reading a number of conservative posts. And I will preface my ststements by stating that I am a Vietnam era veteran, and until recently very conservative. But there comes a time when we have to remove the red white and blue glasses and see this country for what it is. To begin with, the most dangerous group in the world right now, is the evangelical christian conservative republican. My reasoning for that statement include two unnecessary wars and our current economic debacle. The idiotic reaction to national healthcare reform is further proof of the foolishness and evil of that group. We consider ourselves to be the strongest military in the world,as if that's something to be proud of. The fact is that we have never won a war, and lost or are losing wars to third world countries for the last 50+ years. We haven't a clue how to deal with other cultures, mainly because we haven't much culture ourselves. We constantly piss and moan about not having enough, while we get fat and sick from having too much. As a country, we have a long way to go. Yet, instead of making real cultural and spiritual headway, we obediently follow self serving demogogues in the name of jesus. Action that would have him turning in his grave.

 
He's not in the grave, re: Easter.
Dec 23, 2009 3:01 pm

Being, as you might have guessed, an evangelical christian conservative republican (well, let's just stop with conservative) why is it my fault that the progressives are trying to shove health care down our throat? 

 
Why is it my fault that Carter and Clinton decided that everyone in the country deserved to get a loan?  Why is it my fault that banks and credit card companies decided that it was OK to loan $500K to a guy making $50K a year?  What does my religion have to do with that? 
 
We've never won a war?  Seriously?  Did your history book not include anything about WW2 or WW1 or the battle for independance from the British? 
 
What cultural and spiritual headway would you like our country to be making?  You want to put prayer back in schools?  You want to allow my kid to get up in front of her class and pray at graduation?  You want to put the 10 commandments back up on the wall in courtrooms across the country?  How about putting a nativity scene back on town squares or CHRISTmas trees back in the White House?  How about allowing anyone anywhere to say Merry Christmas without fear of losing his or her job. 
 
But that's probably not what you're talking about.  Those things are all a part of the evil evangelical christian conservative agenda.  Folks like you have been trying to get rid of us for 50 years or so.  Hmmm...you get rid of the evangelical christian influences in the country and the place falls apart.  Do you think there might be a correlation?  Nah, that's just my simple evangelical christian conservative mind talking there.  
Dec 23, 2009 3:43 pm

Go away Spiff.

Dec 23, 2009 3:50 pm

With respect to your Vietnam and life experience, you must be wise.








 
As is pointed out, Christ is transformed. We as advisors, especially after a year like this, have to strive to renew and transform ourselves, somehow become enthusiastic about the business again.
 
Perhaps the condition you lament is the condition of humanity itself. Since the world population has doubled since you and I were kids, you could argue that managing the human condition is twice as much work.
 
Like Nick Murray used to say about owning stocks for the long haul, something like, " the only rational conclusion is optimism. "
 
For Christians,  Christ is being born and rising. It's kind of hard to go there - imagine the mother standing out there holding God in her arms. That requires a leap of faith, no logic.
 
Part of that is, on Christmas Christ is being born, on Easter rising. Christ, God, The Church exist outside of time. This is a mystery and no one has a monopoly on the knowing or doing of The Faith.
 
Every liturgy, the communion is turned into the body and blood of Christ. That regular miracle is greater than any weeping icons or even world peace.
 
I don't see what any of this has to do with politics, or the right or the left. Look at all of the liberal Catholics who put their faith in the Church.
 
Men tend to want to project their own ego on everything, and embellish the truth. The True Church is not the church that makes people feel guilty or prescribes certain behaviors or actions.
 
We have to vigilant about our assumptions in all aspects of consciousness - how we approach our work, others, and especially be vigilant about how these assumptions color our own feelings about ourselves.
 
We all offend continually, ironically, I'm thinking for myself, the first step for me in 2010 is to apologize for offending and take responsibility for taking a positive view about my own consciousness and humanity, remembering the " good friends we have had, good friends we have lost" of past years and decades.
 
 
Dec 23, 2009 3:51 pm
Spaceman Spiff:

Being, as you might have guessed, an evangelical christian conservative republican (well, let's just stop with conservative) why is it my fault that the progressives are trying to shove health care down our throat?



Why is it my fault that Carter and Clinton decided that everyone in the country deserved to get a loan? Why is it my fault that banks and credit card companies decided that it was OK to loan $500K to a guy making $50K a year? What does my religion have to do with that?



We've never won a war? Seriously? Did your history book not include anything about WW2 or WW1 or the battle for independance from the British?



What cultural and spiritual headway would you like our country to be making? You want to put prayer back in schools? You want to allow my kid to get up in front of her class and pray at graduation? You want to put the 10 commandments back up on the wall in courtrooms across the country? How about putting a nativity scene back on town squares or CHRISTmas trees back in the White House? How about allowing anyone anywhere to say Merry Christmas without fear of losing his or her job.



But that's probably not what you're talking about. Those things are all a part of the evil evangelical christian conservative agenda. Folks like you have been trying to get rid of us for 50 years or so. Hmmm...you get rid of the evangelical christian influences in the country and the place falls apart. Do you think there might be a correlation? Nah, that's just my simple evangelical christian conservative mind talking there.





Delusional. And don't ever let the facts get in the way of your belief system. Just a couple of things about history. US factories and Russian blood won WW2. We were late in the game to WW1. We at best tipped the scales after Europe bled itself dry. They weren't our wins. We just ended up on the winning side. And our born again pres GW took over a pretty strong peaceful economy in 2000. How're we doing now? You neocon nazis are dangerous to all living creatures. Your racist, my way is the only way mentality is the greatest danger to the world. Sounds like Jones is the perfect place for you.

Dec 23, 2009 3:54 pm

Edit below.

Dec 23, 2009 3:58 pm
52new:
Spaceman Spiff:

Being, as you might have guessed, an evangelical christian conservative republican (well, let's just stop with conservative) why is it my fault that the progressives are trying to shove health care down our throat? 

 

Why is it my fault that Carter and Clinton decided that everyone in the country deserved to get a loan?  Why is it my fault that banks and credit card companies decided that it was OK to loan $500K to a guy making $50K a year?  What does my religion have to do with that? 

 

We've never won a war?  Seriously?  Did your history book not include anything about WW2 or WW1 or the battle for independance from the British? 

 

What cultural and spiritual headway would you like our country to be making?  You want to put prayer back in schools?  You want to allow my kid to get up in front of her class and pray at graduation?  You want to put the 10 commandments back up on the wall in courtrooms across the country?  How about putting a nativity scene back on town squares or CHRISTmas trees back in the White House?  How about allowing anyone anywhere to say Merry Christmas without fear of losing his or her job. 

 

But that's probably not what you're talking about.  Those things are all a part of the evil evangelical christian conservative agenda.  Folks like you have been trying to get rid of us for 50 years or so.  Hmmm...you get rid of the evangelical christian influences in the country and the place falls apart.  Do you think there might be a correlation?  Nah, that's just my simple evangelical christian conservative mind talking there.  



Delusional. And don't ever let the facts get in the way of your belief system. Just a couple of things about history. US factories and Russian blood won WW2. We were late in the game to WW1. We at best tipped the scales after Europe bled itself dry. They weren't our wins. We just ended up on the winning side. And our born again pres GW took over a pretty strong peaceful economy in 2000. How're we doing now? You neocon nazis are dangerous to all living creatures. Your racist, my way is the only way mentality is the greatest danger to the world. Sounds like Jones is the perfect place for you.

 
I agree with your summary of Spiff et.al.  Just don't be confused into thinking everyone at Jones thinks like him.  Even remotely.  He is a loser and a biggot.
Dec 23, 2009 3:59 pm
Milyunair:

I just think anger is a worthless emotion. Of course I have to deal with it, but how does anger move the ball forward?


I think our anger and disillusion is being exploited by politicians right and left. We are left to argue over the crumbs of our failures and deny success.
 
I can think of some success that has come out of the Vietnam war? Have you ever gone back for a visit, it might help you. Just a thought. Humanity is imperfect by nature.
 
It's a lot easier to be angry than to try to transform your own humanity. No matter what your brand of faith, that effort may be why we are here and the reason for the season.
 
It is just possible that your past experiences - and the distance between then and now - is a gift. What if that's true?
 
If you're really the person you say you are, you must be seeking more than little logical victories on some South Seas forum.
Dec 23, 2009 5:23 pm
Milyunair:

With respect to your Vietnam and life experience, you must be wise.

















As is pointed out, Christ is transformed. We as advisors, especially after a year like this, have to strive to renew and transform ourselves, somehow become enthusiastic about the business again.



Perhaps the condition you lament is the condition of humanity itself. Since the world population has doubled since you and I were kids, you could argue that managing the human condition is twice as much work.



Like Nick Murray used to say about owning stocks for the long haul, something like, " the only rational conclusion is optimism. "



For Christians, Christ is being born and rising. It's kind of hard to go there - imagine the mother standing out there holding God in her arms. That requires a leap of faith, no logic.



Part of that is, on Christmas Christ is being born, on Easter rising. Christ, God, The Church exist outside of time. This is a mystery and no one has a monopoly on the knowing or doing of The Faith.



Every liturgy, the communion is turned into the body and blood of Christ. That regular miracle is greater than any weeping icons or even world peace.



I don't see what any of this has to do with politics, or the right or the left. Look at all of the liberal Catholics who put their faith in the Church.



Men tend to want to project their own ego on everything, and embellish the truth. The True Church is not the church that makes people feel guilty or prescribes certain behaviors or actions.



We have to vigilant about our assumptions in all aspects of consciousness - how we approach our work, others, and especially be vigilant about how these assumptions color our own feelings about ourselves.



We all offend continually, ironically, I'm thinking for myself, the first step for me in 2010 is to apologize for offending and take responsibility for taking a positive view about my own consciousness and humanity, remembering the " good friends we have had, good friends we have lost" of past years and decades.







I was raised Catholic. I don't put Catholics in the same category as evangelical christians. While I have issues with the Catholic church, I have to respect a theology that allows such spiritual visionaries as Thomas Merton. In addition, Jesuit universities have been some of the greatest learning institutions, plus Jesuits have a great amount of respect for other cultures. My concern with the born again mentality is that I believ it's only a step away from anarchy and even terrorism. I appreciate your post and I apologize if my fervor insulted you.

Dec 23, 2009 5:38 pm

Not at all, I respect you.

 
I share your concern about fundamentalism of all stripes.
 
I had a Buddhist college teacher once, who told me, " I believe you have to choose your religion for yourself, and believe it to the exclusion of all others. I grew up in Japan, and I believe Buddhism is the True Way. If you're asking me , do I think you should become a Buddhist, I would say, it would probably be easier and more meaningful for you to believe Christianity to the exclusion of all others, since you grew up in a Christian culture and a lot of the meaning and joy of the affirmation of faith is cultural."
 
Who understands the Jesuits, or the Fathers of the Eastern Orthodox church, who understands - Sponge Bob? It's an education problem, but education has been corrupted by political economics.
 
I see a convergence in America to the obvious, I don't think the "right" will be getting a lot of mileage out of the traditional hot buttons. We all have gay family members, or family members who exercise free will and choose abortion. Suicide is a right. I love economics, and I think fundamentalism is bad economics, in the sense that mixing politics and religion is bad for both.
 
 
Dec 23, 2009 11:35 pm

HH The Dali Lama says that you should practise the religion you were born to. But if that's not working for you, he thinks his is the way to go.

Dec 24, 2009 12:01 am

I find it difficult to bash Evangelical Christians when, as a whole, they are such good people and have such good intentions. My only complaint is that they tend to vote Republican without even thinking about the candidate (especially the old ones...).

However, I believe it was promising that many Evangelical Christians did not come out to vote in '08. Some say it was because of McCain, although Palin was supposed to fix that objection.

I tend to believe it was their growing disappointment with the current Republican administration. Torture and an endless war (which was started under false pretenses) are not Christian tenets; I believe 2008 was when they began to feel like they were being used...which I believe they were.

Dec 24, 2009 12:07 am

I believe your people now control the executive and Congress. Let's focus on the results you get going forward. Your obsession with evangelicals is starting to look like a  red herring. In a few hours, it will be next year. It's going to get progressively harder to blame the right.





 
Time to focus on the numbers and results wrought by this regime.
Dec 24, 2009 5:52 am
52new:

I've been reading a number of conservative posts. And I will preface my ststements by stating that I am a Vietnam era veteran, and until recently very conservative. But there comes a time when we have to remove the red white and blue glasses and see this country for what it is. To begin with, the most dangerous group in the world right now, is the evangelical christian conservative republican. My reasoning for that statement include two unnecessary wars and our current economic debacle. The idiotic reaction to national healthcare reform is further proof of the foolishness and evil of that group. We consider ourselves to be the strongest military in the world,as if that's something to be proud of. The fact is that we have never won a war, and lost or are losing wars to third world countries for the last 50+ years. We haven't a clue how to deal with other cultures, mainly because we haven't much culture ourselves. We constantly piss and moan about not having enough, while we get fat and sick from having too much. As a country, we have a long way to go. Yet, instead of making real cultural and spiritual headway, we obediently follow self serving demogogues in the name of jesus. Action that would have him turning in his grave.

 
There are dangerous radicals that make up a small percentage of all religions. It has been that way for hundreds of years. To make a blanket statement like yours in the direction of conservative evangelical christians deflates your entire argument. Merry Christmas !!!!!!!!!!!!
Dec 24, 2009 7:39 am
Ron 14:
52new:

I've been reading a number of conservative posts. And I will preface my ststements by stating that I am a Vietnam era veteran, and until recently very conservative. But there comes a time when we have to remove the red white and blue glasses and see this country for what it is. To begin with, the most dangerous group in the world right now, is the evangelical christian conservative republican. My reasoning for that statement include two unnecessary wars and our current economic debacle. The idiotic reaction to national healthcare reform is further proof of the foolishness and evil of that group. We consider ourselves to be the strongest military in the world,as if that's something to be proud of. The fact is that we have never won a war, and lost or are losing wars to third world countries for the last 50+ years. We haven't a clue how to deal with other cultures, mainly because we haven't much culture ourselves. We constantly piss and moan about not having enough, while we get fat and sick from having too much. As a country, we have a long way to go. Yet, instead of making real cultural and spiritual headway, we obediently follow self serving demogogues in the name of jesus. Action that would have him turning in his grave.

 
There are dangerous radicals that make up a small percentage of all religions. It has been that way for hundreds of years. To make a blanket statement like yours in the direction of conservative evangelical christians deflates your entire argument. Merry Christmas !!!!!!!!!!!!




I agree. Happy Holidays!

just kidding...Merry Christmas


Dec 24, 2009 11:57 am

Being a Vietnam Vet doesn't in and of it self mean jack sh*t about your ability to 'understand' anything.

 
The reason we've lost the wars is that people who are not able to stomach what WAR really is try to limit how we participate. It's the people that put arbitrary and uneccessary rules on war that keep us from winning. No one argues that we aren't the most powerful military in the world. But when we go to war we have alot of limitations whereas the enemy can use children or hide in schools knowing that we won't go in. Our enemies lack the same thinking.
 
As for healthcare reform --- well the fact that the CBO says that it will cost additional BILLIONS of dollars a year versus the stated goal of saving money should be cause for concern.
 
I don't know anyone that doesn't think that Cheap, Available, and Quality healtcare isn't a great idea. The problem is that no one seems to have been able to come up with a plan that does that. The Obama Administration has somehow convinced alot of people that we need "CHANGE" without really conceiving if the change is for the better for the masses. I'm not opposed to good healthcare reform, I'm opposed to THIS HEALTHCARE REFORM.
 
I would argue that the biggest threat is actually the Apathy that encompasses a large portion of society. The fact that people feel it's the government's responsibility to legislate ethics or morality; the government's responsibility to take care of those in need and not taking that responsibility unto themselves. That to me is the problem.
 
People used to turn to the Church for that guidance, now they want to give that to the government. The problem is, you can switch churches if you don't agree. You can't switch the US Government unless MOST people agree. Taking away your individual right to choose is the scariest and most troubling trend to me.
Dec 24, 2009 12:19 pm

Well put LSU -

 
 Action that would have him turning in his grave - oops, nothing like someone ripping Christians without basic knowledge of Christ
 
 
Dec 24, 2009 1:19 pm

To LSU ,great place to go to school by the way. Rules in warfare are a sign of societal advancement. But I agree with you to an extent. If we were free to do what it takes to win insurgent wars, we would win them easily. In history, only one general ever won a war in Afganistan. That was Alexander the Great. He would approach each tribal group and tell them, "either join us or we will kill every man and sell every woman and child into slavery". It worked. I just don't see us doing that. And the broader question is, what are we doing there in the first place? We went into Islamic countries whith no idea about their culture and traditions. Same mistake we made in Vietnam, but at least in Vietnam we had a legitimate concern with the communist domino effect.

There are plenty of good models for healthcare reform. Western Europe puts us to shame. They have better, more efficient systems with better outcomes and happier citizens. Don't believe the insurance propaganda about long waiting lines and rationing. In the US over half the money spent on healthcare is spent the last six months of our lives anf offers little or no benefit to the majority of patients. What the healthcare plan will cost, would be spent anyway. In other words, the cost of healthcare reform would be spent with or without the reform measures. At least now, we have the foundation to build a single payor system that is much more cost efficient.

With respect to religion, my concern is the mindlessness and intolerance of the evangelicals. I consider them dangerous to all of our freedom. Our cultural morality, generally speaking is no worse now than at any time in history. We are always a step away from savages, and a step away from enlightenment.

Dec 24, 2009 3:30 pm

 "either join us or we will kill every man and sell every woman and child into slavery".



 
From my perspective, this sounds a lot like Chicago politics run amok. I don't know where you get your energy, you guys are driving the stagecoach now, I'm holding on for dear life.
 
Please be careful and don't forget about the passengers.