[quote=Indyone]

OK, I’ve sat on the sidelines long enough…Indyone in RED…

[quote=mranonymous2u] " The atheist likes to argue for the sake of arguing."

Fir.. (hey, what did I catch by copying your text?) First off, What's with the "the atheist" what am I some kind of lab experiment? You're from the south, aren't you?

Secondly, I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing I'm trying to save your mortal mind! My mind is not in need of your saving grace.  Just like you're trying to save my immortal soul (and neither of us has any proof that the other's exists). Religion as a belief system is a retardant to true knowledge. You know, I've managed to get through high school, a four year bachelor's degree, the CPA exam and the CFP exam, all while (gasp!) harboring religeous beliefs and (for the most part...) functioning as a practicing Christian!  You don't want to be retarded, do you?  You can believe or not believe what you want, but insulting those who don't think as you do just undercuts your credibility and causes reasonable folks to question the validity of your argument.

When you have the easy out of "because that's the way God wanted it!" there is no need to stretch your mind beyond what you know. You become like my daughter when we're doing her math homework, she'll turn her brain off because she knows that I will give her the answer (I didn't not become a teacher because it was too easy a profession, I didn't become a teacher because I haven't the talent for it). If you are willing to rely on "faith" you'll turn your brain off when the challenge gets too new for you to know what to do. That's nothing but an unsubstantiated attempt to stereotype Christians.  If you were one, you'd know better.

Further, atheists (which I did not say I was, believe it or not there is a whole world of ideas that are theist, deist, without being Christian, but you show your prejudice when you assume that people who question the Christ must not believe in any god.) are capable of having a discussion about the relative merits of religion without trying to "convert" anyone. But you apparently feel the need to proselytise, to bear witness of the glory of the Lord. I think those that feel the need to do so are entitled to do so.  What you fail to realize is that most religeons are mutually exclusive in their beliefs.  The muslim worships Mohammed to the exclusion if Jesus Christ and the Christian does exactly the opposite.  If you believe in a form of theology, most likely, you will feel compelled to "proselytise" about it in an attempt to bring others into the light.  Yes, as a Christian, I am convinced that other religeons are false doctrine.  I'm just not naive enough to assume that everyone else "gets it" and I'm usually wise enough to not waste time on "those who will not hear", like I'm doing now...

It's been said that the only sensible stand is agnosticism. Oh please...by WHO?  Please tell me why their opinion is any more valid than mine.  And all in all I'd more likely describe myself as a Gnostic (an agnostic Gnostic, for sure). And if you're going to believe in Gospels, then why not believe in the Judas gospels?  That's the beauty of it...I can chose to believe in what I want...much like you.

Did you ever notice the similarities between the life stories of Socrates and Jesus?  Unless you're advocating that Socrates was the Messiah, I can't see any relevance here.

Most of the mythology of Christianity is the same mythology of practically every religion on the face of the planet. Ever think that perhaps other religeons are trying to emulate the real thing?  Virgin birth? Happens all the time, mythologically speaking. Death and resurrection? How many times has Vishnu reappeared? The Buddhists believe that the Dalai Lama is the same guy being reincarnated again and again over the centuries.

Mr. A[/quote]

The beauty of America is that we all have the freedom to believe what we will.  I believe without reservation, and until you've been there, you won't understand it.  Someday you and I will both die and then the truth will be known to both of us.  If you're comfortable with your theories and your version of the truth, good for you...stay right where you are.  Frankly, just as you are tired of fundamentalists, I'm sick and tired of you calling Christians retarded, among other things.  If you don't have anything more constructive to contribute, why don't you crawl back under your rock?  You'll know the truth soon enough.

[quote=Indyone]

OK, I’ve sat on the sidelines long enough…Indyone in RED…

…

I think those that feel the need to do so are entitled to do so.  What you fail to realize is that most religeons are mutually exclusive in their beliefs.  The muslim worships Mohammed to the exclusion if Jesus Christ and the Christian does exactly the opposite.  If you believe in a form of theology, most likely, you will feel compelled to “proselytise” about it in an attempt to bring others into the light.  Yes, as a Christian, I am convinced that other religeons are false doctrine.  I’m just not naive enough to assume that everyone else “gets it” and I’m usually wise enough to not waste time on “those who will not hear”, like I’m doing now……

“My mind is not in need of your saving grace.” Grace (as if I had any) is not what saves minds, only usage can do that.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

“… but insulting those who don't think as you do just undercuts your credibility and causes reasonable folks to question the validity of your argument.” I didn’t insult anyone, I merely stated a fact and gave my reader the choice. Retard, as in impede; retarded as in impeded. It is the definition of religion, that it impedes reason. The very invention of the concept of reason is as a broadside to the poets and the storytellers of early <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Greece. Faith and reason are antithetical, in that reason requires that the very basis of a concept must be challenged and proved to be not an internally inconsistent presumption. Various groups at the time were looking for this truth in different ways. Pythagoras was one of those who saw perfection in mathematics (as an example). This is axiomatic (which is “If  A=B and B=C then A=C) there is no valid argument that can discredit the idea that Faith impedes reason, Faith retards reason. Do you want to be retarded? Yes or no?

“If you were one, you'd know better [than to stereotype].”

Holy Internally Inconsistent, Batman! Stereotyping me by saying that non-Christians are incapable of knowing! This is what is known as an ad hominem argument, wherein you opt not to offer any evidence or cite any source to support your position.

“I think those that feel the need to do [proselytize] so are entitled to do so.” Good for you! But the point that was being refuted was the notion that Atheists argue just for argument’s sake. It was not about one’s right to proselytize.

“… to not waste time on ‘those who will not hear’…” Ad Hominem. Here we have the exact example of retardation of reason. It is absolutely not that I will not hear, but you will rely on your faith to tell you that this is the situation. This is the sort of rhetorical device that the sophists resorted to when they crossed swords with Socrates and the early Philosophers. Sophists believed that truth was whatever could be most widely accepted as the truth. Early Philosophers believed that truth was an absolute that could only be found through thorough examination of the assumptions and presuppositions.

“Oh please... [agnosticism was said to be the only reasonable stand] by WHO[m]?”  

     As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one can prove that there is not a God.

Bertrand Russell ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell )

“Please tell me why their opinion is any more valid than mine.” Do I really need to? Or can we agree that Nobel Laureates in literature might have gone through a tougher vetting process and peer review process than either of us. All men are created equal, but the same can not be said of opinions.

“...I can chose[sic] to believe in what I want...”  Yes, you can. But instead, you choose to believe in what others want you to. And if you choose to believe outside of the narrow slice that they have chosen for you, you are called a blasphemer, a heretic, an atheist and worse. That’s not choice, that’s not “Free Will” (the BIG one) that’s fear of coercion.

“Unless you're advocating that Socrates was the Messiah, I can't see any relevance here.” Look it up. I think you’ll be surprised at how much of the Socrates story is overlapped by the Christ story. Maybe then you’ll start to understand that these are mythological stories, created to appeal to new potential converts.

“Ever think that perhaps other religeons[sic] are trying to emulate the real thing?” Yeah, when I was 10 years old! But I eventually thought that maybe God had made these other religions too (that’s faith!)! And then, eventually, I came to a fuller understanding of the universe and god’s place in it.

“Frankly, just as you are tired of fundamentalists…” When did I say I was tired of Fundies? They’re delicious for breakfast!

“I'm sick and tired of you calling Christians retarded…” Once! I had said it once, and not in that tone of voice! That’s an awful thin skin you have covering that deep and abiding faith! I guess when you set up a belief system on the stories of martyrs, it’s to be expected that adherents will all look for the opportunity to feel persecuted.

Mr. A

This is a debate going on not just on our little piece of the web, but all over the world.  Scientists for years have stated that there cannot be a God, simply because they cannot find any scientific proof that He exists.  Recently, the same scientists have recanted their previous statements and said that through all of the scientific study there have been things that happen that cannot be explained by anything other than a higher power enforcing his will on us. 

The biggest debate is creation.  For years the scientific world has told our school systems they cannot teach the idea of Biblical creation because there was no scientific proof that it happened the way Genesis said.  Their alternative is the Big Bang, or spontaneous generation, evolution and all of that.  Accidents.  My apologies for not having specifics with me at work, but there have been many scientists recently that have said that the mathematical possibilities of a single cell evolving into you and I are way beyond the reach of reality.  The result - Intelligent design.  The question is who. 

You're scientific mind struggles with accepting that it was God, not a god, the God that was the designer, simply because there's not a test that can be performed in a lab to prove it to you. 

I have always had some sort of respect for someone who doesn't believe as I do.  And a little pity.  Not much pity because you make your own decisions.  Respect in the fact that when you are agnostic or gnostic I feel it takes more faith to believe there isn't a God than that there is.  People like Indy, Starka, and I probably grew up in a church (mine was a Baptist one) where there wasn't any debate about whether God exists or not.  It is a lot more simple for us.  We know what we believe.  We've seen it work in our own lives.  I have two little adopted girls that look like my wife and I could have concieved them ourselves.  I choose to believe God knew that they were going to be in our family and therefore needed to look a certain way.  You might say it was complete coincidence.  I don't. 

Our two worlds are clashing.  You want every mention of God out of the public eye.  Out of the court system, out of the constitution, out of the stores this time of the year, out of our schools, etc.  And there are legislators trying to tell us what we can and can't do.  What you see as the fundies wanting more and more from you is just us trying to preserve our way of life without having to be afraid of being sued for telling someone Merry Christmas at Wal-Mart.

I'm glad you think you're more intelligent than us because we believe in God and Jesus.  At least you have convictions.  Paul wrote that God would rather us be hot or cold instead of luke warm.  Maybe I should start quoting Marx instead.   

"Recently, the same scientists have recanted their previous statements and said that through all of the scientific study there have been things that happen that cannot be explained by anything other than a higher power enforcing his will on us"

Cite a source please!

"Paul wrote that God would rather us be hot or cold instead of luke warm. "

That was a personal matter between Paul and Luke, and I won't be dragged into their squabbles!

Evolution is very easy for me, you see, I'm a Catholic. We Catholics believe in the infallibility of the Pope. The Pope (the last one, not this one) made a Papal Lion (I think that's the terminology) stating that we evolved. The evidence is overwhelming, said he. We must recognize the advancements of our knowledge (6,000 year old flat earth centric universe anyone?).

"when you are agnostic or gnostic I feel it takes more faith to believe there isn't a God than that there is. "

Jesus Christ! Read a book would you please!? An agnostic is one who admits that he can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. Generally, an agnostic is a person who believes in something but can't reconcile it to his everyday experience. A Gnostic is something COMPLETELY different!

Gnostics were a "cult" that believed in God, but not the anthropomorphic (Man like) God the Father type of God. They are essentially the ones who believed in "the Force" before they had any clue as to what the word Force meant (made for an easy A in physics class). It's MUCH easier to believe in god when god is the "life force".

The Judas Gospels are an agnostic gospel that tells of Judas and Jesus going round the bend and seeing the heavens open up and the players coming out and that they were able to bend the powers of the Gnostic forces to alter reality. Cool Stuff! Very Cool! But it won't make it into the New Testament.

Mr. A

[quote=mranonymous2u]

“Recently, the same scientists have recanted their previous statements and said that through all of the scientific study there have been things that happen that cannot be explained by anything other than a higher power enforcing his will on us”

Cite a source please!

"Paul wrote that God would rather us be hot or cold instead of luke warm. "

That was a personal matter between Paul and Luke, and I won't be dragged into their squabbles!

Evolution is very easy for me, you see, I'm a Catholic. We Catholics believe in the infallibility of the Pope. The Pope (the last one, not this one) made a Papal Lion (I think that's the terminology) stating that we evolved. The evidence is overwhelming, said he. We must recognize the advancements of our knowledge (6,000 year old flat earth centric universe anyone?).

"when you are agnostic or gnostic I feel it takes more faith to believe there isn't a God than that there is. "

Jesus Christ! Read a book would you please!? An agnostic is one who admits that he can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. Generally, an agnostic is a person who believes in something but can't reconcile it to his everyday experience. A Gnostic is something COMPLETELY different!

Gnostics were a "cult" that believed in God, but not the anthropomorphic (Man like) God the Father type of God. They are essentially the ones who believed in "the Force" before they had any clue as to what the word Force meant (made for an easy A in physics class). It's MUCH easier to believe in god when god is the "life force".

The Judas Gospels are an agnostic gospel that tells of Judas and Jesus going round the bend and seeing the heavens open up and the players coming out and that they were able to bend the powers of the Gnostic forces to alter reality. Cool Stuff! Very Cool! But it won't make it into the New Testament.

Mr. A

You see? That's the ad hominem. Instead of addressing the fact that the Pope endorsed evolution as factual, you went on about how I called something wrong (even though I noted that I might have had the terminology wrong, I have no faith in my own infallibility). Then you went on to scourge my faith and my religion.

Tch tch...

How is my upbringing any reflection on the facts about what agnostics are and what Gnostics were (are)? It's not. If you think you are telling me something I don't know about my Catholicism, you have another think coming. But, try as you all might, I will not make this discussion about Me or about You.

Would you care to reply again, and this time maybe you could show some proof of a 6,000 years young flat Earth that is the center of the universe? Leave the personal attacks at the recycle bin.

Mr. A

[quote=mranonymous2u]

You see? That’s the ad hominem. Instead of addressing the fact that the Pope endorsed evolution as factual, you went on about how I called something wrong (even though I noted that I might have had the terminology wrong, I have no faith in my own infallibility). Then you went on to scourge my faith and my religion.

Tch tch...

How is my upbringing any reflection on the facts about what agnostics are and what Gnostics were (are)? It's not. If you think you are telling me something I don't know about my Catholicism, you have another think coming. But, try as you all might, I will not make this discussion about Me or about You.

Would you care to reply again, and this time maybe you could show some proof of a 6,000 years young flat Earth that is the center of the universe? Leave the personal attacks at the recycle bin.

Mr. A

Too much to respond to here when the phone keeps ringing, but I'll say these few things and shake the dust from my sandals...

1.  Absolutely Muslims worship Mohammed.  What else are you doing when you build shrines to someone?

2.  Mr. A, you were labled as someone who lacks knowledge about Christianity, not someone who knows nothing.  There's a big difference.

3.  "Those who will not hear" refers to those who reject Christianity.  It does not refer to people who will not listen.  You take things much too literally here.

4.  The argument that the opinion of a Nobel Laureate in literature is necessarily more important/valid in matters of theology than opposing or conflicting views is absurd.

5.  I believe of my own free will.  Period.

6.  My skin is thicker than you think...look how long I sat on the sideline reading your nonsense without responding.

7.  All the arguments you make here are meaningless when you're dead...one way or the other.

Merry Christmas...and peace on earth to all...

Answer the question. Would you rather be retarded in your thought process? Yes or no.

I don't hold just Christians to this standard, I'll hold all faith based life forms to the same standard. But again, Christians personalize the point for their own persecutorial needs.

Mr. A

 "Mr. A, you were labled as someone who lacks knowledge about Christianity, not someone who knows nothing.  There's a big difference." Yes, so now it's a case of circular logic and selective data. The biggest misconceptions about Christianity seems to be coming from the Christians here.

""Those who will not hear" refers to those who reject Christianity." Which was the context in which I responded. It's not that I reject Christianity it's faith I have issues with.

"The argument that the opinion of a Nobel Laureate in literature is necessarily more important/valid in matters of theology than opposing or conflicting views is absurd." PULEESE! "In 1950, Russell was made a Nobel Laureate in Literature, "in recognition of his varied and significant writings in which he champions humanitarian ideals and freedom of thought"." And the question is not "Is his view more important/valid in matters of theology than opposing or conflicting views?" It is "Is his opinion more valid than Indyone's?" That was the question you asked.  The answer is unequivocally, yes!

You are still free to disagree with him, but it's not as if I'm citing Joe from the luncheonette.

"I believe of my own free will.  Period." It's not really about you in particular. I'm not here calling you names, or telling you what you have to believe. I'm not offering to pray for you. I'm just stating a series of facts.

Mr. A

I haven’t been to a luncheonette in years…

And it shows! You looking mahvelous!

Mr. A

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