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Oct 17, 2006 2:40 am

[quote=Soon 2 B Gone]It really depends on who you see as your “natural market.”  If you envision yourself opening accounts with people who want to be investors in things beyond insurance, variable annuities and mutual funds you should go with Morgan Stanley.

However, since 90% of the population--or even more--are best served with insurance and mutual funds there is no reason to bother with the potential for failure at Morgan Stanley when the chances for success are so much greater at NYLife.[/quote]


Let's suppose that all of my clients would only want insurance, variable annuities and mutual funds.

Why would that equal success at NYLife, but failure at MS?

Are the fees and payouts structured differently?
Oct 17, 2006 2:44 am

[quote=mktsystms] [quote=Soon 2 B Gone]It really depends on who you see as your “natural market.”  If you envision yourself opening accounts with people who want to be investors in things beyond insurance, variable annuities and mutual funds you should go with Morgan Stanley.

However, since 90% of the population--or even more--are best served with insurance and mutual funds there is no reason to bother with the potential for failure at Morgan Stanley when the chances for success are so much greater at NYLife.[/quote]


Let's suppose that all of my clients would only want insurance, variable annuities and mutual funds.

Why would that equal success at NYLife, but failure at MS?

Are the fees and payouts structured differently?
[/quote]

Absolutely.  At an insurance company the salesman keeps far more of the commissions than a broker at Morgan Stanley would keep--especially on the insurance business.

I'll leave it to others to fill in the details--the guy who did that all the time indicated that he was too busy to bother with this forum, but maybe he's one of these other names floating around.

Oct 17, 2006 3:11 am

If your going to go the insurance route why not go indy?

At NYL your going to pay most if not all of your expenses.  If I remember correctly they did let you make local calls from an assigned cube.

No salary.

The NYL name does not stir clients like it used as lets face it people are jaded towards any insurance company.

Going to have push whole life as its the only way to hit your goals.  All of the goals are based on Life sales.

Are you prepared to sell a 100k WL policy to someone who really needs a 500k term policy?  Why?  Well your going to only get like 40% on the term and 55-60 on the WL.  Not to mention the prem. is going to be more.

Also be ready to sell WL as an "investment" of course this is done with a /wink. 

They will frown on you getting appointed with any other companies. 

You will for the most part be a one trick pony.

Oct 17, 2006 11:42 am

The above is an example of something that could be valuable, except that it's written by a functional illiterate and as such the entire message becomes questionable.

As a customer of NYLife myself I can tell you that it is true that they will do every thing they can to "force" you to sell what they refer to as "permanent" insurance--I find myself constantly having to fend off my guy who contacts me several times a year suggesting that I should convert my $2 million term policy to something else.

I disagree that the NYLife name does not carry the panache it once had.  Among the more sophisticated there is still brand appeal.  We are constantly being innundated with near subliminal messages about not trusting finanical types unless they are household names--NYLife is a household name.

But be clear, if you sign on with NYLife they're going to expect you to sell their policies and (I suppose) a relatively short menu of funds.

Much is made of the limited product line many people have to offer.  I've used the concept in talking with both potential hires and potential clients--but the reality is that almost 100% of the retail investors don't need anything  other than some more life insurance and a some decent mutual funds.

Oct 17, 2006 12:12 pm

Soon 2 b gone-

"As a customer of NYLife myself "

Sucks to be you!

You over paid for a name.  Oh well if it makes you feel better.

Oct 17, 2006 1:13 pm

mktsystms,

I know I will probably get blasted for this on the forum, but if you are looking for a firm with good sales training, you should consider EDJ.  I work for them, but was a former accountant.  I have great technical skills, understand the investment world very well (I studied it for many years), but was not a natural salesman.  EDJ's training helped quite a bit.  Yes, it does not have the panache, etc. of a MS, ML, ....but they do hold your hand along the way.  It's great having my own office, I like the culture, and there are certainly other benefits.  Yes, everyone else is going to chime in about all the drawbacks of our firm, but I should tell you, they just increased the New Investment Rep compensation again this week for the 2nd time this year.  It is pretty lucrative.  Keeps you going for close to 3 years (4 years for Health Ins.).

If you are interested let me know and I will get you my e-mail address (ignore all the bashing from people that either never worked here, or have not worked here in years).

 

Oct 17, 2006 1:38 pm

[quote=Broker24]

mktsystms,

I know I will probably get blasted for this on the forum, but if you are looking for a firm with good sales training, you should consider EDJ.  I work for them, but was a former accountant.  I have great technical skills, understand the investment world very well (I studied it for many years), but was not a natural salesman.  EDJ's training helped quite a bit.  Yes, it does not have the panache, etc. of a MS, ML, ....but they do hold your hand along the way.  It's great having my own office, I like the culture, and there are certainly other benefits.  Yes, everyone else is going to chime in about all the drawbacks of our firm, but I should tell you, they just increased the New Investment Rep compensation again this week for the 2nd time this year.  It is pretty lucrative.  Keeps you going for close to 3 years (4 years for Health Ins.).

If you are interested let me know and I will get you my e-mail address (ignore all the bashing from people that either never worked here, or have not worked here in years).

[/quote]

I agree with this advice.  Jones is what you make of it--if you're a chronic bitchoid they will give you plenty of grist for your problem, but there are thousands of very successful people there who do not suffer from the tendency to whine.

Oct 17, 2006 1:55 pm

[quote=BondGuy]One concern, is that cloistering yourself for all these years could lead to a culture shock. Your trading experience,while able to give you market knowledge and common sense, will be of little value here during your first several years as building a business is primarily a sales task. You’ve got to be a people person and make LOTS OF CONTACTS. Once made, you’ve got to ask these contacts to buy something. You need to be honest with yourself, can you do that?

Lastly, while some believe the insurance industry offers the best prep school for this business I believe it to be the local Ford Dealership. I am dead serious. If you don't know how to sell, that's something you need to learn. As good as MS is, I'll tell you up front that noone in their training department can teach you how to sell. Same goes for UBS, SB, ML, AGE. Just the way it is.[/quote]

I realize that the early part of this business is all about making contacts and networking.  I also realize that it is the exact opposite of what I have been doing for the last 18 years...but... they wouldn't call it a "career change" if it wasn't different from what a person had been doing previously.  Actually, this will be my 2nd career change, as I was a professional musician and performer on stage for 16 years in my "first" life. 

Rather than asking people to buy something, I hope to be able to make presentations that educate and inspire people to want to buy.  I'm a soft-sell kind of guy.
Oct 17, 2006 2:06 pm

[quote=mktsystms] [quote=mikebutler222]

[quote=mktsystms] The BOM told me that I would never lose an account because of performance (return on investment,) but that I could lose lots of accounts if the service was bad.  Of course I realize how important service (hand holding) is, but how can investment firms tell their clients that they shouldn't be concerned about their return on investment?  When did THAT come about?[/quote]

It isn't that firms tell clients not to care, it's clients who have told firms what matters to them most. Go ahead and sell yourself as the hottest dot out there, you'll probably attract those sorts of clients who will leave you when the next "hot dot" comes along and resells your now former clients.  BTW, service is much more than hand holding.[/quote]


I hope that I haven't come across as a hot shot.[/quote]

No, you've been fine, I was referring to the "hot dot". That's last years big money maker. IMHO, if you sell yourself not as someone who can help clients formulate and achieve financial goals, you'll be selling yourself only on performance. You'll end up attracting people who are always willing to move to the next guy with a better short-term record or pitch.

[quote=mktsystms]

 Can you explain more about what constitutes the service that clients want?  Thank you.

[/quote]

It's been my experience that few, if any, clients worth having are cases where their only desire is "make this pile as big as you can". Most need to do things with their money, preserve it, make income with it, grow it for 20 years down the road (retirement), help them minimize taxes on it or help them get it to their heirs without getting bashed on taxes. Those are just a few of the services I'm talking about.

Oct 17, 2006 3:13 pm

Insurance v.s. Brokerage business.  

You will make more money in the insurance business than the brokerage business, and as Soon (Put et al) says more  people need or are suited for mutual funds, annuities and insurance products.  However, it takes some time to learn how to sell and how to appropriately use insurance products.  You will NOT get much training or support in that area from any broker dealer. 

Having never been contracted as a captive agent by NY Life, I couldn't say how much support they have for you on the investment side, but I would assume that they would have some quality insurance training.

Either way, it is a sales and contact job.  You have a leg up in your advanced age (I'm advanced too, so I can say that).  People who are our age, the Boomers, are more likely to trust you than if you were in your 20's.  People who are younger are more likely to trust you as a voice of experience and you are old enough to be able to relate to the really geriatric types like Soon 2 B Gone    You also have a leg up in that you are a past performer and probably will enjoy doing seminars and being in the spotlight.  (I too, used to be a professional singer.....long long ago in a city by the bay...but I digress.)

Don't go to EDJ if your goal is to make any real money.  If you want to get a 2 to 4 year education in running a small office and some rudimentary investment training, they are adequate.   After quite a few years in this business I have found the perfect niche for me as an Independent in a wealthy retirement community.  I can offer any types of investments I feel suitable and use any strategies on the investment side that are available to the wire-houses.  On the insurance side I am independently contracted and that business is not subject to overrides by the broker dealer.  That being said, I would not recommend you jump head first into the indy end of the pool without some experience either at a wire-house or insurance brokerage.

Best of luck.

Oct 17, 2006 3:21 pm

I am currerntly talking with a few NYLife guys about my firm.  Their investment support is shockingly rudimentary at best, and the local guys are limited to doing proprietary products until they have done a certain level of business with NY Life-a very significant level.  I do not know if this policy extends beyond the local branch.

Oct 17, 2006 4:00 pm

[quote=mktsystms]

I realize that the early part of this business is all about making contacts and networking.  I also realize that it is the exact opposite of what I have been doing for the last 18 years...but... they wouldn't call it a "career change" if it wasn't different from what a person had been doing previously.  Actually, this will be my 2nd career change, as I was a professional musician and performer on stage for 16 years in my "first" life. 

Rather than asking people to buy something, I hope to be able to make presentations that educate and inspire people to want to buy.  I'm a soft-sell kind of guy.
[/quote]

The music experience may help you in that with this business the show must still go on regardless of what's happening in your life or how you feel.

As for the soft sell, that's how it's done here, no arm twisting. Yet, once you've "inspired" people to buy you still have to close. This you will learn quickly. Learning how to do it with finesse is the art form not taught by most of the majors.

For example, you've done a great job of working with a prosepect to show them the road to a successful retirement, their stated goal. This process has taken months and a bond has developed between you and the prospect. And, at this final meeting you were on and good. All systems are go. Yet, the client says they want to think about it. You think, this is a done deal, You've laid it out perfectly, there is nothing left out, the prospect agrees with everything as presented. There is nothing to think about. What are you going to do? Welcome to our world!

A consensus close would be like Christmas in July for us. Unforunately, for the most part, it doesn't go that way.

Oct 17, 2006 4:23 pm

The success rate for new FAs throughout the industry is about 20%.

The success rate among wirehouse training programs is just under 50%.  Note that this number is probably much lower at MS right now, since they have made some serious cuts in their training program over the past two years.  You may want ask some questions about the recent cuts before you make a decision.

If you have a good network of HNW individuals (such as retirees, executives or small business owners) then the wirehouse route may be best.  However, if most of your network only needs insurance, then insurance may be better.

I’m not sure about the earlier claim that you will make more selling insurance than you will at MS.  The average FA at MS makes over $200K.

Full disclosure:  I recruit experienced FAs for wirehouses.  I do a lot of work with experienced trainees, but do not place people with insurance firms.  That makes me biased, so I suggest you take my comments in context.


Good luck and let us know what you decide!





Oct 17, 2006 4:33 pm

[quote=babbling looney]You have a leg up in your advanced age (I’m advanced too, so I can say that).[/quote]

Wait a sec…

advanced age?  not me.

I converted when I was 40…to celsius…now I’m 18 again.



[quote=babbling looney]You also have a leg up in that you are a past performer and probably will enjoy doing seminars and being in the spotlight.  (I too, used to be a professional singer…long long ago in a city by the bay…but I digress.)[/quote]

I was musical director for several artists, and we used to go to San Fran and play at the Fairmont a couple of weeks each year. 

Oct 17, 2006 4:36 pm

[quote=BondGuy]As for the soft sell, that’s how it’s done here, no arm twisting. Yet, once you’ve “inspired” people to buy you still have to close. This you will learn quickly. Learning how to do it with finesse is the art form not taught by most of the majors.

For example, you've done a great job of working with a prosepect to show them the road to a successful retirement, their stated goal. This process has taken months and a bond has developed between you and the prospect. And, at this final meeting you were on and good. All systems are go. Yet, the client says they want to think about it. You think, this is a done deal, You've laid it out perfectly, there is nothing left out, the prospect agrees with everything as presented. There is nothing to think about. What are you going to do? Welcome to our world!

A consensus close would be like Christmas in July for us. Unforunately, for the most part, it doesn't go that way.[/quote]

I get the picture.  Thank you.
Oct 17, 2006 4:42 pm

[quote=JCadieux]The average FA at MS makes over $200K.[/quote]

I read an article that said the avergae FA production at ML was almost $750k, while the average at MS was about $475k.

The BOM at MS told me that the FAs get anywhere from 33% to 50% of their production.  How is that range determined?  Is it based on account size, or AUM, or LOS, or that some products pay more than others?


Oct 17, 2006 5:20 pm

[quote=babbling looney]

Insurance v.s. Brokerage business.  

You will make more money in the insurance business than the brokerage business, and as Soon (Put et al) says more  people need or are suited for mutual funds, annuities and insurance products.  However, it takes some time to learn how to sell and how to appropriately use insurance products.  You will NOT get much training or support in that area from any broker dealer. 

Having never been contracted as a captive agent by NY Life, I couldn't say how much support they have for you on the investment side, but I would assume that they would have some quality insurance training.

Either way, it is a sales and contact job.  You have a leg up in your advanced age (I'm advanced too, so I can say that).  People who are our age, the Boomers, are more likely to trust you than if you were in your 20's.  People who are younger are more likely to trust you as a voice of experience and you are old enough to be able to relate to the really geriatric types like Soon 2 B Gone    You also have a leg up in that you are a past performer and probably will enjoy doing seminars and being in the spotlight.  (I too, used to be a professional singer.....long long ago in a city by the bay...but I digress.)

Don't go to EDJ if your goal is to make any real money.  If you want to get a 2 to 4 year education in running a small office and some rudimentary investment training, they are adequate.   After quite a few years in this business I have found the perfect niche for me as an Independent in a wealthy retirement community.  I can offer any types of investments I feel suitable and use any strategies on the investment side that are available to the wire-houses.  On the insurance side I am independently contracted and that business is not subject to overrides by the broker dealer.  That being said, I would not recommend you jump head first into the indy end of the pool without some experience either at a wire-house or insurance brokerage.

Best of luck.[/quote]

Being an old fart does have its advantages.  If you're in your 20s you can make it selling high commission life insurance/ Var annuities.  I find it is easiest for me to sell to those under 40. 

Oct 17, 2006 5:38 pm

[quote=mktsystms]

[quote=JCadieux]The average FA at MS makes over $200K.[/quote]

I read an article that said the avergae FA production at ML was almost $750k, while the average at MS was about $475k.

The BOM at MS told me that the FAs get anywhere from 33% to 50% of their production.  How is that range determined?  Is it based on account size, or AUM, or LOS, or that some products pay more than others?


[/quote]

Payouts are determined by a lot of factors.  I can’t post the link here.  If you send me a PM I’ll point you towards a resource that lists the payout grids for all of the major firms.


Oct 17, 2006 5:55 pm

[quote=mktsystms] [quote=JCadieux]The average FA at MS makes over $200K.[/quote]

I read an article that said the avergae FA production at ML was almost $750k, while the average at MS was about $475k.

The BOM at MS told me that the FAs get anywhere from 33% to 50% of their production.  How is that range determined?  Is it based on account size, or AUM, or LOS, or that some products pay more than others?


[/quote]

I'll jump in here. Payout is determined by two factors, production level and length of service(LOS). As time goes on you must increase your production or at least maintain a certain level to maintain your payout level. Higher payouts are only achievable through higher production. The payouts are laid out on a production versus LOS  grid. Thus the system is known as 'The Grid." The grid shows what your cut, so to speak, will be of every dollar of production you do. Each firm has its own grid , LOS and production requirements. Not part of most grids are deferred comp and other soft dollar payments.

The BOM is giving you a payout range. This is of little concern to a trainee early on as most of your income will come from the salary. negotiate the best salary that you can. One word about a common mistake, that is agreeing to a salary that won't work. Ok, it's a new career, so sacrifices must be made. Yet, they must be weighed against the practical considerations of your personal situation. Too many trainees enter with to little salary figuring comissions will soon fill any gaps. For slow starters this plan is an iceberg on a cold dark night. It definately cuts the voyage short.

Concur that average income at MS tops $200K. However, averages are not a good indicator of how much the majority of the salesforce is making. One broker could be pulling a million dollars and five could be making $100K. Average would be $250k. Very misleading, add another million dollar guy and the average pops to $357K. There are too many variables in averages to put much weight in them. A better measure is median income. Better yet, ask what the second and third year trainees in the branch are making. That should give you a clearer picture.

My bids are back, back to work!

Oct 17, 2006 5:58 pm

[quote=mktsystms] [quote=JCadieux]The average FA at MS makes over $200K.[/quote]

I read an article that said the avergae FA production at ML was almost $750k, while the average at MS was about $475k.[/quote]

That average MS figure sounds like it's from before last year's cuts. The average now is second among wirehouses at $653k.


[quote=mktsystms]
The BOM at MS told me that the FAs get anywhere from 33% to 50% of their production.  How is that range determined?  Is it based on account size, or AUM, or LOS, or that some products pay more than others?


[/quote]

The grid runs 33% to 42% (without bonuses, etc) and is based on production level and product type, with "tier 1" (assets based, mostly) paying slightly more.