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Dec 24, 2009 9:57 pm

[quote=52new] To LSU ,great place to go to school by the way. Rules in warfare are a sign of societal advancement. But I agree with you to an extent. If we were free to do what it takes to win insurgent wars, we would win them easily. In history, only one general ever won a war in Afganistan. That was Alexander the Great. He would approach each tribal group and tell them, “either join us or we will kill every man and sell every woman and child into slavery”. It worked. I just don’t see us doing that. And the broader question is, what are we doing there in the first place? We went into Islamic countries whith no idea about their culture and traditions. Same mistake we made in Vietnam, but at least in Vietnam we had a legitimate concern with the communist domino effect.

There are plenty of good models for healthcare reform. Western Europe puts us to shame. They have better, more efficient systems with better outcomes and happier citizens. Don’t believe the insurance propaganda about long waiting lines and rationing. In the US over half the money spent on healthcare is spent the last six months of our lives anf offers little or no benefit to the majority of patients. What the healthcare plan will cost, would be spent anyway. In other words, the cost of healthcare reform would be spent with or without the reform measures. At least now, we have the foundation to build a single payor system that is much more cost efficient.

With respect to religion, my concern is the mindlessness and intolerance of the evangelicals. I consider them dangerous to all of our freedom. Our cultural morality, generally speaking is no worse now than at any time in history. We are always a step away from savages, and a step away from enlightenment. [/quote]



So you are 58 years old?

Dec 25, 2009 7:21 pm

I’ve been around the world. There is no place like home. You are able to write your thoughts here in public for all to see with no fear. It’s kind of like being with WFC. It sure isn’t perfect but where is better? Our ability to complain about ourselves is something to be treasured and defended. Not many other places a guy can be basically penniless and with nothing more than a phone, his wits and hard work receive some of the highest wages ever paid in the history of the world.

  Be glad you were not brought up in a Madrassa.
Dec 25, 2009 11:54 pm

[quote=Still@jones] I find it difficult to bash Evangelical Christians when, as a whole, they are such good people and have such good intentions. Unless you are gay or have, perform, or condone abortion.  They don’t seem to be so good then.  My only complaint is that they tend to vote Republican without even thinking about the candidate (especially the old ones…).

However, I believe it was promising that many Evangelical Christians did not come out to vote in '08. Some say it was because of McCain, although Palin was supposed to fix that objection.  Palin was the worst thing that ever happened to McCain.  Educated people were scared to death that she could one day be the one in charge.  He may have had a chance without her.


I tend to believe it was their growing disappointment with the current Republican administration. Torture and an endless war (which was started under false pretenses i.e. lies that GW's administration created and perpetuated - which were taken as gospel by the sheep on the right and those southern Christians who followed them.  No one doubts that he's an idiot, but he couldn't have been that dumb) are not Christian tenets; I believe 2008 was when they began to feel like they were being used...which I believe they were.
[/quote]
Dec 26, 2009 12:37 am

"Palin was the worst thing that ever happened to McCain.  Educated people were scared to death that she could one day be the one in charge.  He may have had a chance without her. "

  I'm not a Palin fan, and the Republicans need to find a better candidate, but that quote is completely inaccurate.   If you recall, McCain's campaign had completely stalled and he was getting crushed and going in the wrong direction.  His pick of her gave the campaign instant life and momentum.   There isn't someone else who he could have picked that would have allowed him to win.  The problem with the McCain campaign was McCain.  He was a weak candidate.  The election was one in which one was either For Obama or Against Obama.  Elections can't be won that way.  A party must have a candidate who can excite the party.
Dec 26, 2009 1:10 am

[quote=anonymous]"Palin was the worst thing that ever happened to McCain.  Educated people were scared to death that she could one day be the one in charge.  He may have had a chance without her. "

  I'm not a Palin fan, and the Republicans need to find a better candidate, but that quote is completely inaccurate.   If you recall, McCain's campaign had completely stalled and he was getting crushed and going in the wrong direction.  His pick of her gave the campaign instant life and momentum.   There isn't someone else who he could have picked that would have allowed him to win.  The problem with the McCain campaign was McCain.  He was a weak candidate.  The election was one in which one was either For Obama or Against Obama.  Elections can't be won that way.  A party must have a candidate who can excite the party.[/quote]   Hee hee, don't confuse the blasphemer with facts.
Dec 26, 2009 6:24 pm
52new:

I’ve been reading a number of conservative posts. And I will preface my ststements by stating that I am a Vietnam era veteran, and until recently very conservative. But there comes a time when we have to remove the red white and blue glasses and see this country for what it is. To begin with, the most dangerous group in the world right now, is the evangelical christian conservative republican. My reasoning for that statement include two unnecessary wars and our current economic debacle. The idiotic reaction to national healthcare reform is further proof of the foolishness and evil of that group. We consider ourselves to be the strongest military in the world,as if that’s something to be proud of. The fact is that we have never won a war, and lost or are losing wars to third world countries for the last 50+ years. We haven’t a clue how to deal with other cultures, mainly because we haven’t much culture ourselves. We constantly piss and moan about not having enough, while we get fat and sick from having too much. As a country, we have a long way to go. Yet, instead of making real cultural and spiritual headway, we obediently follow self serving demogogues in the name of jesus. Action that would have him turning in his grave.



Were you a Vietnam WAR veteran? Or just served in the same decade that the vietnam war ended in?
Dec 28, 2009 2:53 am

[quote=imabroker][quote=Still@jones] I find it difficult to bash Evangelical Christians when, as a whole, they are such good people and have such good intentions. Unless you are gay or have, perform, or condone abortion.  They don’t seem to be so good then.  My only complaint is that they tend to vote Republican without even thinking about the candidate (especially the old ones…).

However, I believe it was promising that many Evangelical Christians did not come out to vote in '08. Some say it was because of McCain, although Palin was supposed to fix that objection.  Palin was the worst thing that ever happened to McCain.  Educated people were scared to death that she could one day be the one in charge.  He may have had a chance without her.


I tend to believe it was their growing disappointment with the current Republican administration. Torture and an endless war (which was started under false pretenses i.e. lies that GW’s administration created and perpetuated - which were taken as gospel by the sheep on the right and those southern Christians who followed them.  No one doubts that he’s an idiot, but he couldn’t have been that dumb) are not Christian tenets; I believe 2008 was when they began to feel like they were being used…which I believe they were.
[/quote] [/quote]
Wow! My first time being bashed for my Right-Wing views!!!
Dec 28, 2009 1:25 pm

[quote=imabroker][quote=Still@jones] I find it difficult to bash Evangelical Christians when, as a whole, they are such good people and have such good intentions. Unless you are gay or have, perform, or condone abortion.  They don’t seem to be so good then.  My only complaint is that they tend to vote Republican without even thinking about the candidate (especially the old ones…).

However, I believe it was promising that many Evangelical Christians did not come out to vote in '08. Some say it was because of McCain, although Palin was supposed to fix that objection.  Palin was the worst thing that ever happened to McCain.  Educated people were scared to death that she could one day be the one in charge.  He may have had a chance without her.


I tend to believe it was their growing disappointment with the current Republican administration. Torture and an endless war (which was started under false pretenses i.e. lies that GW’s administration created and perpetuated - which were taken as gospel by the sheep on the right and those southern Christians who followed them.  No one doubts that he’s an idiot, but he couldn’t have been that dumb) are not Christian tenets; I believe 2008 was when they began to feel like they were being used…which I believe they were.
[/quote] [/quote]

Yes.  Being against the killing of unborn children is a bad thing.

As for Palin, the woman had a 90% approval rating in Alaska until the presidential election.  She gave up being a rock star to run.  She’s not any dumber than Biden.  People think she is dumber than dirt simply because of her accent and the fact that in Alaska things are a little different.

What did you want Bush to do?  “Here is my strategery:  Rather than have the terrorists attack us here in the U.S. on our soil, we will take over a sovereign nation, and while we’re at it depose a crazy dictator, and have our soldiers (who are trained to fight) choose the battleground”.  My guess is EVERYbody(sarcasm) would have gotten on board then.
Dec 29, 2009 4:09 am

Even though I am solidly pro-choice, I have absolute respect for the opinions of someone who is pro-life. Sure, I wonder how someone who is pro-life can be pro-war, but that is another discussion. Oh, and why someone will spend a weekend holding vigils for unborn babies instead of volunteering at a homeless shelter or foster home. But, I guess they have their reasons.

I think we place high, almost unattainable, expectations on
politicians. I think that is a good thing. Palin does not have what it
takes to play in the big leagues. The media was out to get the GOP in '08 and she was the weak link. She probably took more shots than she deserved, but who cares…

I belive Bush is a complete failure…but I will save this for a new thread.

Dec 29, 2009 12:05 pm

just to stir up trouble...

I think that most people who are pro-life are actually pro-life for everybody else, but pro-choice for themselves.
Dec 29, 2009 1:06 pm

[quote=Still@jones]Even though I am solidly pro-choice, I have absolute respect for the opinions of someone who is pro-life. Sure, I wonder how someone who is pro-life can be pro-war, but that is another discussion.

[/quote]

Likewise, I wonder how pro-choice people are against the death penalty.

I am not PRO-war. 

Interestingly enough though, I find it odd that pro-choice people would rather kill a baby that hasn’t harmed anybody, than a criminal who has.

Dec 29, 2009 1:58 pm

I tend to be pro-choice, but anti-death penalty.

  However, my reasoning isn't about morals and religion.   I think that abortion is awful and something that should be avoided if at all possible.  However, I also think that the mother's life is more more important than the unborn baby.  If a pregnancy is going to put the mother's life in danger, I believe that it is proper for her to have an abortion.  If your 43 year old brother rapes your 12 year old retarded daughter, she should be able to have an abortion.    However, the bottom line for me is that although I think that abortion for birth control purposes is wrong, I don't think that is a proper role of government.   For those who believe that abortion is murder and a sin, this seems like one of those areas in which it would be better to let God deliver the punishment than man.   As for being anti-death penalty, for me, it's just about practicality.  As a society, we can't seem to get this one right.  Once we can do this swiftly and relatively cheaply and consistently  and in a way that may act as a deterrent, I just don't see the point.   More accurately, I am pro-choice AND anti-abortion (with exceptions).
Dec 29, 2009 2:15 pm

[quote=anonymous]I tend to be pro-choice, but anti-death penalty.

  However, my reasoning isn't about morals and religion.   I think that abortion is awful and something that should be avoided if at all possible.  However, I also think that the mother's life is more more important than the unborn baby.  If a pregnancy is going to put the mother's life in danger, I believe that it is proper for her to have an abortion.  If your 43 year old brother rapes your 12 year old retarded daughter, she should be able to have an abortion.    However, the bottom line for me is that although I think that abortion for birth control purposes is wrong, I don't think that is a proper role of government.   For those who believe that abortion is murder and a sin, this seems like one of those areas in which it would be better to let God deliver the punishment than man.   As for being anti-death penalty, for me, it's just about practicality.  As a society, we can't seem to get this one right.  Once we can do this swiftly and relatively cheaply and consistently  and in a way that may act as a deterrent, I just don't see the point.   More accurately, I am pro-choice AND anti-abortion (with exceptions).[/quote]

I think you are more anti-choice and pro abortion.  I am for abortion in those extreme cases like you mention.  But in that case, the woman was never given a choice.

Or if the child is putting the mother's life in danger.

But women who have sex because they want to, aren't careful and get pregnant.  Don't get a pass from me.  You don't get to kill a child because you were irresponsible and didn't make your boyfriend put a jimmy hat on.

You are the exception in the pro-choice crowd (if indeed you are pro-choice).

I remember hearing a pro-choice comedian talk about how pro-life people were hypocrites because they "don't want to abort them when they are babies, but will let them grow up and kill them with the death penalty when they get older".  This was met with a standing ovation. 

Sick, if you ask me.
Dec 29, 2009 2:38 pm

I know that I'm talking about extreme examples, but don't we need to do so?  If your wife gets raped, should she have the choice to get an abortion?  If the answer is "yes", I think that makes you "pro-choice" even if you think that abortion is a terrible awful thing.  I think that abortion is a terrible awful thing, but I don't want the government making the decision for my wife and my kids.

We have to be practical.  If abortion was only legal, for example, in cases of rape, I think that we are going to have lots of men accused of rape.   Again, I'm pro-choice and anti-abortion.  Let me try to phrase it another way.  I'm pro-choice, but abortion is usually a terrible amoral choice.  It's not a decision that I think that the government should be making for people.    I don't know how Catholics stand on the issue.  Can someone please explain the Catholic position.  I know that they are generally Pro-life, but are there exceptions for things like the mother's life being in danger.  I know that abortion is against the Jewish religion, but it is mandatory if the mother's life is in danger.
Dec 29, 2009 7:08 pm

The abortion issue is quite complex. I was hoping we would bash Palin some more.

The Catholic church is against all abortions and birth control methods. They believe you should let your wife die so your child will live. Stupid child molesters!

 

Dec 29, 2009 9:58 pm

[quote=52new]And I will preface my ststements by stating that I am a Vietnam era veteran, and until recently very conservative. .[/quote]

You know what’s coming when you read that sort of garbage preface….

[quote=52new]To begin with, the most dangerous group in the world right now, is the evangelical christian conservative republican. [/quote]

I'm not fan of the evangelical wing of conservatives, but you're out of your mind. Call me when they start flying jetliners into buildings and videotaping beheadings of nonbelievers.

BTW, the concept that you USED to be a conservative, but now you’re turned off by “evangelical christian conservative”[s]. a group whose power within the GOP has been in decline since the days of the Moral Majority in the 1980s, is ridiculous.

[quote=52new]At least now, we have the foundation to build a single payor system that is much more cost efficient..[/quote]

There’s nothing necessarily “evangelical christian conservative” in rejecting the idea of giving 1/5 of the US economy and all choice in our healthcare to the same people that do such a bang-up job with the DMV, the VA, The IRS and the DHS.

[quote=Moraen]
As for Palin, …… She's not any dumber than Biden.
[/quote]

True dat…..

Dec 30, 2009 4:21 am
52new:

To LSU ,great place to go to school by the way. Rules in warfare are a sign of societal advancement. But I agree with you to an extent. If we were free to do what it takes to win insurgent wars, we would win them easily. In history, only one general ever won a war in Afganistan. That was Alexander the Great. He would approach each tribal group and tell them, “either join us or we will kill every man and sell every woman and child into slavery”. It worked. I just don’t see us doing that. And the broader question is, what are we doing there in the first place? We went into Islamic countries whith no idea about their culture and traditions. Same mistake we made in Vietnam, but at least in Vietnam we had a legitimate concern with the communist domino effect.
There are plenty of good models for healthcare reform. Western Europe puts us to shame.Your talking about the system that requires you go blind in one eye from glaucoma before you can get treatment for the other eye? They have better, more efficient systems with better outcomes and happier citizens. If it’s better, why do they come here for the nasty diseases?  They are not more effecient, they are cheaper, there is a difference.  Better outcomes?  Look at life expectancy when you are diagnosed with cancer.  Diabetes.  Heart disease.  Don’t believe the insurance propaganda about long waiting lines and rationing. Propaganda or a sneak peak into European style healthcare?In the US over half the money spent on healthcare is spent the last six months of our lives anf offers little or no benefit to the majority of patients. Yeah, its those nasty diseases that kill us that cost money to treat.  Bet you would want the best treatment for you and yours when the time comes.  Of course the new mantra is that healthcare is a right.  According to your logic, we should just let these people go in the name of cost control.  Where are their rights?  Who decides?  You?  A government lackey?  Have you thought about this?  What the healthcare plan will cost, would be spent anyway. How about we just not spend it?  Radical idea. In other words, the cost of healthcare reform would be spent with or without the reform measures. At least now, we have the foundation to build a single payor system that is much more cost efficient.  Name one government program that is run efficeintly.  Just one.  Medicare is single payer.  Just heard they can cut $500 billion in waste and fraud from that program.  Of course that figure is a lie.  Did you know that?  The “savings” in cuts to Medicare and Medicaid are an accounting gimmick that artificially lowers the cost of HCR to a cost that some politician says is acceptable.  They have to double count the dollars to make it work.  You know this right?  Can you give the definition of effeceincy (sp?)in your world? 
With respect to religion, my concern is the mindlessness and intolerance of the evangelicals. I consider them dangerous to all of our freedom. Our cultural morality, generally speaking is no worse now than at any time in history. We are always a step away from savages, and a step away from enlightenment.

Dec 30, 2009 8:53 pm
Still@jones:

The abortion issue is quite complex. I was hoping we would bash Palin some more.

The Catholic church is against all abortions and birth control methods. They believe you should let your wife die so your child will live. Stupid child molesters!

 

  Orthodox Christians argue that the Orthodox Church is the true unbroken historical church since the resurrection of Christ. Christ lives eternally.   Like everything, there is a lot of politics in religion. We can all see the log in our neighbor's eye, easier than we can see our own shortcomings.   Here is the position of the Eastern Orthodox Church: ( We could have a long debate here, but it is widely believed by Orthodox Christians that the Catholics split off from the Orthodox over the politics of spiritual practices and belief . The Catholics says that the Orthodox left them. Ancient politics.)   " In case of a direct threat to the life of a mother if her pregnancy continues, especially if she has other children, it is recommended to be lenient in the pastoral practice. The woman who interrupted pregnancy in this situation shall not be excluded from the Eucharistic communion with the Church provided that she has fulfilled the canon of Penance assigned by the priest who takes her confession. "   If you go back far enough in the historical church, which lives today, you find the truth.   Isn't it funny how we all stray from the church. The purpose of confession is to renew ourselves, to start with a clean slate in our hearts and minds.   A lot of folks might have a negative emotional reaction to the thought of confession, but again, this probably comes from ignorance about what confession means - you need to understand the cultural and spiritual aspects, maybe, to have a postive attitude about something which seems strange.   Like visiting a foreign country, and getting to know the locals. I have a theory that a lot of folks have "theoretical compassion". In other words, it's easier to have a liberal attitude about abortion, and attack the beliefs of "conservatives", than it is to have a thorough understanding of the historical viewpoint.   If Palin is wrong or weak, why would you get pleasure out of attacking her? That seems to rob your "liberal" viewpoint of spirituality or morality or reason.  

" The document also acknowledges that abortions often are a result of poverty and helplessness and that the Church and society should "work out effective measures to protect motherhood." All in all, the Eastern Church let's the individual decide for herself whether or not they want to perform the action. "

  We get to help so many folks in our business. Even respectful conversation is an opportunity to increase our humanity.   Obviously, sixteen year olds getting high and making babies and having abortions is pretty silly, and so is forcing a sick mother or rape victim to avoid abortion. It's a personal decision, and the Church and clergy can help counsel the individual. Free choice is perhaps God's most important gift to humans.   Interesting discussion. Now is a good time to renew ourselves for the coming year. Happy New Year!   Here is the article:   http://wapedia.mobi/en/Christianity_and_abortion#3.   Ironic that the reading from St. Paul for today hits home:   http://www.goarch.org/chapel/lectionary_view?type=E&code=133&date=12/30/2009   Christ renewed the didactic laws of the Jews. "I will remember their sins and their misdeeds no more." Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin."   Jones guy, please don't attribute didactic and moralistic practices to real Christians. That is brutal irony, and reduces Christian spirituality to cynicism, which is probably not a nice thing.   We don't judge, and we don't speak for God. We try to be humble listeners, " seek first to understand, then to be understood ".  Anyone who claims that God will punish and person's abortion, or homosexuality and the like, speaks while standing on  thin ice, far from the center of the Church. We have the teachings of the Church, and we have free choice.   If you have never checked out the Orthodox Church, or, feel Christianity got too political over the ages, or want to a great source for debates, check out this award winning site:   http://www.goarch.org/
Dec 31, 2009 12:04 am

[quote=anonymous]I tend to be pro-choice, but anti-death penalty.

  However, my reasoning isn't about morals and religion.   I think that abortion is awful and something that should be avoided if at all possible.  However, I also think that the mother's life is more more important than the unborn baby.  If a pregnancy is going to put the mother's life in danger, I believe that it is proper for her to have an abortion.  If your 43 year old brother rapes your 12 year old retarded daughter, she should be able to have an abortion.  98% of abortions are for birth control purposes, not rape, incest, or mother's health reasons.    However, the bottom line for me is that although I think that abortion for birth control purposes is wrong, I don't think that is a proper role of government.  So who should stand up for the unborn if not the entity that makes the laws?  The issue is and has always been, is a fetus a person?  As someone who has lost a child (stillborn), I can tell you that she looked like a person to me.  Hurt just like I had lost a loved one.  But every argument I hear about abortion deals with 2% of them, or a woman's right to control her body.  What about the babies rights?  We have politicians telling us that the healthcare is a right, while trying to compromise on abortion language.  I think that life is a right, earned the day it begins.  For those who believe that abortion is murder and a sin, this seems like one of those areas in which it would be better to let God deliver the punishment than man.   As for being anti-death penalty, for me, it's just about practicality.  As a society, we can't seem to get this one right.  Once we can do this swiftly and relatively cheaply and consistently  and in a way that may act as a deterrent, I just don't see the point.   More accurately, I am pro-choice AND anti-abortion (with exceptions).[/quote]
Dec 31, 2009 11:24 am

Primo,  I hear you.  I think that there are lots of valid sides to this argument.   One of the things with laws is that they must be able to handle the 2% of cases and not just the 98%.   

  It seems to be that for those who believe that human life begins at conception, abortion is murder.  As such, I think that they should be arguing against all abortions regardless of the circumstances.   Many people would be ok with this....except if it was their own daughter.   I'm very sorry for your loss.  It hurt like you lost a loved one because you did.