[quote=babbling looney]

Holy Crap.  You're a bigger dork than me.

 Thanks.  It takes years of practice and dedication.  You should try the Myst series for serious dorkdom. 

[/quote]

What's that, a latter day D&D? 

Mike,

Sorry I couldn't own you on this post any more today.  I was too busy bringing in my "little" bank clients.  I'm not even going to go there, you'll refute it anyway, and frankly, I could care less.

I didn't twist your logic...i quoted you WORD for WORD and owned you the entire way.  You portray as if the market is infallable and will always post positive returns.  Did you pass the 7 last month???

Mike, in all seriousness, how can you be comfortable basically guaranteeing to retirees that they're money will be safe no matter what??

You act and speak as if you have some crystal ball...I really think you need to realize you aren't dealing with play money, and sometimes people don't want or have the heart to "stick it out" during down cycles.  You're 2% extra you might make someone a year is not worth the risk of them taking some serious losses in the future and not being able to recoup.

You must deal primarly with younger folks.  That would explain your overly exhuberant approach to the markets.  I deal with retirees and near retirees almost exclusively, and they simply do not/will not/should not/ put the lion's share of their money at risk.

It's not about what the market does overall...it's about what the markets doing WHEN YOU NEED IT.  How is it you can guarantee all will be well THEN???  You can't.

Oh brother, you asked for it now. Get ready for another 10 pages.

You know Mike is a twat because he can't agree with one thing anyone says.  If you read any post by anyone on this bored, they will say I agree this may be true but this is BS.  Mike on the other hand is all knowing, he is right about everything, and the rest of the world is wring about everything, not only are they wrong he has a paragraph explanation why they are wrong.

[quote=dude]

Mike said:

I’m convinced, for example, menotell would sell meteorite insurance (“Can you be certain your or your loved ones will NEVER be impacted by a meteorite? Do you KNOW how many meteorites hit the Earth every year? Have you ever seen THE MOON????”) if they could charge a fat enough commission.

Reply.

ROFLMAO

[/quote]

roflmFao!

[quote=menotellname]

Mike,

Any body that uses ROFLMAO has no room to call somebody "childish".  After all...you have indeed been "owned".

BankFC has pretty much abused you in every gentlemanly way possible.  Hell...neither BankFC nor I initiated the use of the term "owned".  An impartial 3rd party that has witnessed you being verbally raped has realized that you have been "owned" in every politically correct way.

At least you can take solace in the fact that the longer you continue being verbally raped the greater the chance that you will receive a "reach around".

[/quote]

Yes of course Ron you are soooo  mature and Mike is not.  Hence your use of the terms 'reacharound' and "owned".  Real mature.

Little man, many of us have ties older than you.  Now, go sit back at your little desk in the bank lobby and sell some more annuities to some scared retirees.  After all, Elliot Spitzer needs something to do in the next few years.

Besdies, I need people like you for the good of my business.  When  a client is considering hiring an experienced independent advisor such as myself or Babs, it's always good to have a few 'horror stories' to tell about the guy who sits in the lobby in the bank....so they know what to do when they go to draw the big check out of their savings account and the teller tries to steer them to the guy in the little cube in the corner of the lobby.  I always train them what to do when that guy(such as yourself) tries to shove an annuity down their throat before they walk out with that check.

But of course you wouldn't do that.....

Joe,

Your old and ignorant. 

Your probably the guy who escorts his client to the bank, so I can't talk to them and to make sure they can't change their mind.  I always see the Northwestern Mutual guy doing this, I laugh.  It's like if your that worried about me stealing your clients don't you see why this is such a good position to be in.

The world it is a changing.  I have a door Joe.  No cube here. 

[quote=bankrep1]

Joe,

Your old and ignorant. 

Your probably the guy who escorts his client to the bank, so I can't talk to them and to make sure they can't change their mind.  I always see the Northwestern Mutual guy doing this, I laugh.  It's like if your that worried about me stealing your clients don't you see why this is such a good position to be in.

The world it is a changing.  I have a door Joe.  No cube here. 

[/quote]

No, sir, I am neither.

I don't need to walk them to the door.  Most I don't need to worry about at all.  Some of the newer folks I do coach a little to prepare if I know they are going to take out a large check.

My comments were not directed at you, but rather metellnoname.  I rather suspect you were cut form different cloth than he.

[quote=bankrep1]

You know Mike is a twat ....[/quote]

What little respect I had for you is gone...

[quote=BankFC]I didn't twist your logic...i quoted you WORD for WORD...

[/quote]

Not even close. You took logic about the historic performance of diverisfied portfolios over the long term and turned into gibberish about telling car buyers that they'd never have an accident.

[quote=BankFC]

 You portray as if the market is infallable and will always post positive returns. 

[/quote]

Diversified portfolios over the long term. Learn about the reality of the business you work in. This one's as dumb as your claim that the 65 yr old income earner's portfolio took a 30% dump.

[quote=BankFC]Mike, in all seriousness, how can you be comfortable basically guaranteeing to retirees that they're money will be safe no matter what??

[/quote]

Gee, sounds like you're NOW saying annuitizing is a great deal for the client, lol...

[quote=BankFC]

You're 2% extra you might make someone a year is not worth the risk of them taking some serious losses in the future and not being able to recoup.

[/quote]

How about detailing how these "serious losses" happen in diverisfied portfolios over the long term and how YOU can prevent it. This should be rich....

How about detailing how these “serious losses"

happen in diverisfied portfolios over the long term and

how YOU can prevent it. This should be rich…

Mike,



While you answer that question, answer this one

(another one you avoided). How would working at a

wirehouse (again) make me a better advisor for my

clients? It sure isn’t from a product standpoint, and

it isn’t from a asset gathering standpoint either. And

when you look at expenses and benefits, it really isn’t

from a payout standpoint either…



I could walk in to MS or ML tomorrow, and they would

GLADLY take me and my clients…does the fact that a

wirehouse prints the statements make a difference?



THIS should be rich…lol.

"I guess I'm just starting to second guess myself on the
whole "dream" of what this career can offer. I meet so
many folks lately that have made TONS of money so many
different ways, and I begin to wonder if this career is
worth the headaches. Any advice? "

Full post by BankFC here:

http://forums.registeredrep.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1618&amp ;PN=1

Ok dude, not looking to start a flame war here, but I have to call you out on this one.  On one thread you're lecturing to Mike and I and others about how great annuities are, and how great it is to work at the bank.....how you could walk into any ML or SSB office and get hired on the spot. Then, on "What's up at Firms/Frustration", you post(quoted above) asking for advice from "veterans" (implying a lack of experience on your part) and questioning whether or not you can ever make significant comp in this business and still have some time off(implying you have not acheived such).

What gives?

I'll grant you sound pretty knowledgeable.  But, sometimes you only learn about the bad things that can happen with a product through experience.

What happens if the market continues to be tough and some of the VA carriers out there can't make good on their living benefit guarantees?  There are already rumors within the business of some carriers who were aggressive in marketing these early on being in that position.  From what I understand it is now extremely difficult to purchase reinsurance for these benefits now days.

Food for thought.

[quote=BankFC] [quote=mikebutler222]How about detailing how these "serious losses" happen in diverisfied portfolios over the long term and how YOU can prevent it. This should be rich....

[/quote]

ANSWER THIS 1 QUESTION: How do you know what the
market will do WHEN THE CLIENT NEEDS THE MONEY, not
"over the long term?"

[/quote]

You seem a little confused here (nothing new), but you do realize that as a client gets closer to being an income oriented investor from a growth oriented investor (nearing retirement) you change the asset allocation to one that’s more conservative, heavier in fixed income and dividend oriented equities, right? Also, you do realize a portfolio doesn’t “freeze” nor does its value the day a client retires, right? If the guy’s 60 when he retires, you can expect him to live (and therefore his investments need to grow) for another 20 years and his wife even longer? Right?

[quote=BankFC]

You are the type of schmuck who
loses his clients money, and takes no ownership or
blame. I take accounts from guys like you all the
time.

[/quote]

In your dreams, lobby boy, in your dreams.

[quote=BankFC]

Mike, I'll answer your question. I must say though you
really do show your ignorance. Owning an annuity does
not mean annuitizing.

[/quote]

Golly, really? You mean owning an annuity doesn’t mean you’re required to annuitize it? Wow, next thing you know you’ll be telling me that owning a stock isn’t the same thing as writing a covered call on it. You really are a market master, oh wise one…

[quote=BankFC]

Every annuity I use has a LIVING
BENEFIT that guarantees income WHILE THE MONEY IS
INVESTED.
[/quote]

I assume you’re talking about Hartford’s “Principle First” and “Principle First Preferred”, right, since Hartford doesn‘t call any of its benefits a “living benefit“? There is a “living benefit amount”, but that’s the amount paid under PF or PFP. Perhaps you mean the “Lifetime Builder” option I’ll discuss below.

[quote=BankFC]
Ex: I can invest a $500,000 rollover into the Hartford
Leaders VA, invest them in a diversified portfolio of
American Funds, Franklin Income, MFS Total Return,
etc...and GUARANTEE when they need income, they will be
able to have AT LEAST 5% a year with ANNUAL STEP UP
based on market gains THAT DO NOT GO BACK DOWN if
market contracts back. Guaranteed for life, regardless
of future market performace (or more importantly, lack
thereof).

[/quote]

“Guaranteed for life”, uh, no. Under PF and PFP all you’re granting them is a return of their principle at either 5% or 7% a year (depending on which PF or PFP you choose). There’s no guarantee for life, in fact the prospectus (here’s the link, http://www.hartfordinvestor.com/common/prospectus/individual _annuities/p_ldrs_hli.pdf , check page 26) says each withdrawal is treated as a partial surrender and is subtracted from the contract’s value.

[quote=BankFC]
For life w/ no annuitization and income cannot EVER
decrease.

[/quote]

Nope, again all you’re promising is the return of the principle invested until it runs out (back to your assumption of flat or sideways markets that you’re supposedly protecting people from) at the 5% or 7% pace.

Now, perhaps you’ve been talking about the “Lifetime Benefit Payment”, under the “Lifetime Income Builder“ (and irrevocable rider that must be selected at purchase, and you can‘t have it with PF or PFP. Page 39), once a contract owner hits 60. That does guarantee life payments of 5% of benefit value, but it ends at the owners death.

BTW, the “annuity commencement date”, ten years after the purchase or when the owner reached 90, whichever is later, makes annuitization mandatory (page 42). Is that a good deal for clients?

Here’s a few definitions from Hartford;

PRINCIPAL FIRST: An option that can be added at an additional charge where, if elected you may take withdrawals during the life of the Contract Owner that are guaranteed to equal your total Premium Payments as long as certain conditions are met. The guaranteed amount will be different if you elect this benefit after you purchase your Contract. This benefit is called the Guaranteed Income Benefit in your Contract.

Guarantee Living Benefit Amount
The Income Preferred product has a unique feature that protects the client’s premium payments from a volatile market. This feature is called the Guaranteed Living Benefit Rider. This benefit guarantees that the available withdrawals over the life of the contract will be no less than the amount of purchase payments, regardless of the contract value, as long as the contract remains in Living Benefit Status.

The Hartford's Principal First Benefit Amount
The Benefit Amount is the basis used to determine the maximum payout guaranteed under The Hartford's Principal First. The initial Benefit Amount is your Premium Payment(s). The Benefit Amount is reduced as we make payments. The Benefit Amount is referred to as the Guaranteed Remaining Balance in your Contract.

The Hartford's Principal First Preferred Benefit Amount
The Benefit Amount is the basis used to determine the maximum payout guaranteed under The Hartford's Principal First Preferred. The initial Benefit Amount is your Premium Payment(s). The Benefit Amount is reduced as we make payments. The Benefit Amount is referred to as the Guaranteed Remaining Balance in your Contract.

If I’ve missed something I’m confident you’ll let me know.

[quote=BankFC]Mike,

How would working at a wirehouse (again) make me a better advisor for my clients? It sure isn't from a product standpoint,...

[/quote]

I know that's what you claim, that doesn't make it true. As you admitted yourself we have tools for HNW people that you don't. What you didn't admit is that Trust/PB takes most every tool beyond them most basic away from you.

[quote=BankFC] and it isn't from a asset gathering standpoint either.

[/quote]

I'm not sure how "asset gathering" makes you better for your clients, but before you sound off about the assets you've "gathered" (been handed, is more like it) be honest enough to admit the assets that the bank wants to keep from you in the form of savings accounts and CDs and the assets that Trust/PB takes from you. On top of that consider the assets you'd be able to take with you if you were to leave. Bank brokers are notorious for being unable to move a sizable amount of what we generously call "their book'.

Then consider what can happen if your manager decides to take some or all of "your" branches from you (he sure doesn't consider them yours, nor doea he consider the book he gave you to handle yours) to give to a new hire.

[quote=BankFC]
when you look at expenses and benefits, it really isn't
from a payout standpoint either...

[/quote]

You said yourself your payout was lower oneverything but your beloved annuities (btw, didn't you say yourself it was a small part of your business?), and you've never made a good arguement that your benies were better.

[quote=BankFC]

I could walk in to MS or ML tomorrow, and they would
GLADLY take me and my clients...

[/quote]

They may hire you (over course had you not washed out you could have stayed there all along) and what small percentage of customers you can move. The vast majority of moves are, of course, the other way.

[quote=BankFC]

does the fact that a
wirehouse prints the statements make a difference?

[/quote]

? You mean does it matter that your bank uses a real brokerage to clear through matter? Well, it says a little bit about your podunk firm that they have to outsource that to a real brokerage....

[quote=mikebutler222]

[quote=BankFC]Mike,

How would working at a wirehouse (again) make me a better advisor for my clients? It sure isn't from a product standpoint,...

[/quote]

I know that's what you claim, that doesn't make it true. As you admitted yourself we have tools for HNW people that you don't. What you didn't admit is that Trust/PB takes most every tool beyond them most basic away from you.

Mikey, what i was referring to were very niche products that basically no one in my ML office used anyway aka "currency baskets" going long on the rubble and yen, short on the rupie, etc etc...not a demand for that where I am.  So from a product standpoint you don't have a leg to stand on.

[quote=BankFC] and it isn't from a asset gathering standpoint either.

[/quote]

I'm not sure how "asset gathering" makes you better for your clients, but before you sound off about the assets you've "gathered" (been handed, is more like it) be honest enough to admit the assets that the bank wants to keep from you in the form of savings accounts and CDs and the assets that Trust/PB takes from you. On top of that consider the assets you'd be able to take with you if you were to leave. Bank brokers are notorious for being unable to move a sizable amount of what we generously call "their book'.

Then consider what can happen if your manager decides to take some or all of "your" branches from you (he sure doesn't consider them yours, nor doea he consider the book he gave you to handle yours) to give to a new hire.

Mikey, again, you have NO IDEA what your talking about, and, as your friend, i must tell you it makes you look silly.    I don't work for a national or even a regional bank.  We are a 2 billion dollar bank with about 70 branches.  We have no Private Banking and Trust ONLY does trust work.  I am not going to repeat this again Mikey so pay attention!!!    No conflict of interest in my set-up.

I cover 10 branches, so if my manager were to split my territory that would be fine, I'm spread a little thin as it is.  But I made my goals at ML with NO BRANCHES, so I'm not concerned.

[quote=BankFC]
when you look at expenses and benefits, it really isn't
from a payout standpoint either...

[/quote]

You said yourself your payout was lower oneverything but your beloved annuities (btw, didn't you say yourself it was a small part of your business?), and you've never made a good arguement that your benies were better.

I make about 35% payout on avg (can go up to 40%)...my friends at ML and UBS aren't much higher at all.  Plus the bank gives me better bene's than you get I am sure.  Paid mileage (currently 44.5 cents per mile), pay ENTIRE health ins premium, 6% into 401K whether I put in or not, cell phone, laptop, expense account...

Mikey, tell me what wire you work for that has better benefits?????

[quote=BankFC]

I could walk in to MS or ML tomorrow, and they would
GLADLY take me and my clients...

[/quote]

They may hire you (over course had you not washed out you could have stayed there all along) and what small percentage of customers you can move. The vast majority of moves are, of course, the other way.

Mikey, I didn't wash out.  I was ahead of pace.  I left for a better and easier road.  I didn't like calling at night (I did it anyway).  I didn't like the constant chasing around people who weren't really serious anyway.  The bank is much better for gathering assets. 

[quote=BankFC]

does the fact that a
wirehouse prints the statements make a difference?

[/quote]

? You mean does it matter that your bank uses a real brokerage to clear through matter? Well, it says a little bit about your podunk firm that they have to outsource that to a real brokerage....

You think Pershing is a podunk firm?  Do you know ANYTHING???

Joe,

To answer your question, I am 5 years in the industry, 4 years as an FA...but that includes a move to a new state a year and a half ago and a change of firms from ML to the bank.

To answer your question:

The obvious answer in your senario (being invested as a retiree in a down market) is, portfolios being equal, I would want to be IN a VA...wouldn't you?  Even if there is only a CHANCE that the insurance company would pony up on the living benefits, isn't that better than no chance at all???

Joe,

I should add the the above post.

Unlike Mikey, I don't claim to have a crystal ball.  Even though I think it is HIGHLY unlikely the ins companies (like Hartford and JH and ING) would default on their guarantees...but for arguments sake I will say it is possible (as possible as Mikey having a social life, so not very). 

All else equal (we are debating the merits of the VA bene, so lets say the portfolios are virtually the same), in a down market, as a retiree which would you want?  A CHANCE at a guarantee or no chance? 

Not to mention, in the WORST CASE senario, the client could annuitize for a period certain or whatever if the market was THAT BAD.

You seem much more level headed than Mikey, so I welcome your response.

[quote=BankFC]Mikey, what i was referring to were very niche products that basically no one in my ML office used anyway…..<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[/quote]

You can keep saying that, but it doesn’t make it so.

QUOTE=BankFC] I don't work for a national or even a regional bank.  We are a 2 billion dollar bank with about 70 branches.  We have no Private Banking and Trust ONLY does trust work.  I am not going to repeat this again Mikey so pay attention!!!  <?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />  No conflict of interest in my set-up.

[/quote]

Sure, at your mystery bank life’s perfect…. and of course you can invent life there any way you like, since no one can check on business at your mystery bank.

[quote=BankFC]I cover 10 branches, so if my manager were to split my territory that would be fine, I'm spread a little thin as it is. 

[/quote]

Hey, why not? I mean, if you’re going to create a mystery bank that’s a fantasy world, why not tailor it to perfection?

[quote=BankFC]

But I made my goals at ML with NO BRANCHES, so I'm not concerned.

[/quote]

Sure you did. Plenty of successful wirehouse guys jump all the time for the higher payout and the prestige of the bank lobby.

[quote=BankFC]I make about 35% payout on avg (can go up to 40%)...my friends at ML and UBS aren't much higher at all. 

[/quote]

Wow, your friends at ML and UBS sure are small producers if that’s their payout…

[quote=BankFC] Plus the bank gives me better bene's than you get I am sure.  Paid mileage (currently 44.5 cents per mile), pay ENTIRE health ins premium, 6% into 401K whether I put in or not, cell phone, laptop, expense account...

Mikey, tell me what wire you work for that has better benefits?????

[/quote]

Your benies don’t sound impressive, and it would seem you don’t have profit sharing.  BTW,  the major wirehouses have much the same bennie programs, you don't need a specific name. It is funny, however, that you would ask ME for a name but your mystery bank goes unnamed...

[quote=BankFC]
Mikey, I didn't wash out.  I was ahead of pace. 

[/quote]

Sure you were 

[quote=BankFC]

You think Pershing is a podunk firm?  Do you know ANYTHING???

[/quote]

That reading comprehension thing of your may be part of why you washed out at ML. I didn’t call Pershing Podunk, I called YOUR firm Podunk as it has to outsource such a basic business responsibilityl…

LOLOL

Securities clearing is basic???  That's why even really large banks like SunTrust (National Financial) are podunk too.  LOL.

Mike, I'm glad you know EVERYTHING in the world.  What a joke you are.

Mike, what firm do you work for?  By the way, you asked first...

Mike, I can't say anymore.  You do plenty for me.  You are an idiot.