Thoughts on ForeFront?
Good, bad or indifferent?
Forefront is a joke. Envision is a total failure and a slight of hand for clients to distract them from their portfolio performance. It’s overly dependent on historical performance and asset allocation and the result of these poor assumptions was a collapse of the planning tool with the crash of the market.
[quote=punkbynature]Forefront is a joke. Envision is a total failure and a slight of hand for clients to distract them from their portfolio performance. It’s overly dependent on historical performance and asset allocation and the result of these poor assumptions was a collapse of the planning tool with the crash of the market.
[/quote]
yeah its a joke. Here is a little story no one has told. Stump and WFC did give Danny $ for retention. Why didn’t you see any? Well any some thought and all the bonus frenzy in the news they decided to make an FA do a little work for some money. Know of several that can already pocket a 7 figure check now.
Is there any documented proof Danny got a retention, or is this a guess or fourth hand info?[quote=punkbynature]Forefront is a joke. Envision is a total failure and a slight of hand for clients to distract them from their portfolio performance. It’s overly dependent on historical performance and asset allocation and the result of these poor assumptions was a collapse of the planning tool with the crash of the market.
[/quote]
yeah its a joke. Here is a little story no one has told. Stump and WFC did give Danny $ for retention. Why didn’t you see any? Well any some thought and all the bonus frenzy in the news they decided to make an FA do a little work for some money. Know of several that can already pocket a 7 figure check now.
4front is an easy way to pay a minimal retention to everyone in the firm: even the low producers (no production requirements). If questioned, they can always frame it not as retention, but as some kind of production enhancer. Anyway, if the market keeps moving up, no one will care if we are/were paid retention.
it is an EASY bonus to hit–i have an assistant do 4 hours of work and i’m done for $750k, which’ll i’ll gladly take up front. If i leave later, i leave later…i’ll just pay it back, just as i would have retention.
4 hours to do $100mm worth of Envision Plans? My BS meter just went off.4front is an easy way to pay a minimal retention to everyone in the firm: even the low producers (no production requirements). If questioned, they can always frame it not as retention, but as some kind of production enhancer. Anyway, if the market keeps moving up, no one will care if we are/were paid retention.
it is an EASY bonus to hit–i have an assistant do 4 hours of work and i’m done for $750k, which’ll i’ll gladly take up front. If i leave later, i leave later…i’ll just pay it back, just as i would have retention.
Is there any documented proof Danny got a retention, or is this a guess or fourth hand info?[/quote][quote=Hydeho] [quote=punkbynature]Forefront is a joke. Envision is a total failure and a slight of hand for clients to distract them from their portfolio performance. It’s overly dependent on historical performance and asset allocation and the result of these poor assumptions was a collapse of the planning tool with the crash of the market.
[/quote]
yeah its a joke. Here is a little story no one has told. Stump and WFC did give Danny $ for retention. Why didn’t you see any? Well any some thought and all the bonus frenzy in the news they decided to make an FA do a little work for some money. Know of several that can already pocket a 7 figure check now.
Is there any documented proof Danny got a retention, or is this a guess or fourth hand info?[/quote][quote=Hydeho] [quote=punkbynature]Forefront is a joke. Envision is a total failure and a slight of hand for clients to distract them from their portfolio performance. It’s overly dependent on historical performance and asset allocation and the result of these poor assumptions was a collapse of the planning tool with the crash of the market.
[/quote]
yeah its a joke. Here is a little story no one has told. Stump and WFC did give Danny $ for retention. Why didn’t you see any? Well any some thought and all the bonus frenzy in the news they decided to make an FA do a little work for some money. Know of several that can already pocket a 7 figure check now.
Danny didn't get a retention, he got retention $ from WFC and decided to use to fund forefront instead of giving for someone sitting on there ASS. Ask any market manager that was in St louis in march meeting.
Dog and Pony Show…Circus hoops…Busy Work…etc etc
[quote=Wheat-ie]4front is an easy way to pay a minimal retention to everyone in the firm: even the low producers (no production requirements). If questioned, they can always frame it not as retention, but as some kind of production enhancer. Anyway, if the market keeps moving up, no one will care if we are/were paid retention. it is an EASY bonus to hit–i have an assistant do 4 hours of work and i’m done for $750k, which’ll i’ll gladly take up front. If i leave later, i leave later…i’ll just pay it back, just as i would have retention.
4 hours to do $100mm worth of Envision Plans? My BS meter just went off.[/quote]
SH
Not that your ‘meter’ matters, but i have 27 HH of $3mm or more (theres 81mm right there). The Envision short sheet questionnaire is 2 pages long and requires only about 10 questions all being answered to complete the scaled down version of the plan–if you know your client to begin with, you know the answers off the top of your head. Takes about 5 minutes to complete each one. I had 15 of these profiles already done before this event, so my SA only had to enter around 25 plans, with the light data referenced to “qualify”.
If all you $300k producers could just come to realize there are people out there with really good, really large businesses, and not everyone on this post is full of BS, you might learn a few things rather than question everyone so your own deflated egos and tiny little practices feel better.
At least Wheat-ie is humble LMAO
[quote=Wheat-ie] [quote=Sam Houston] [quote=Wheat-ie]4front is an easy way to pay a minimal retention to everyone in the firm: even the low producers (no production requirements). If questioned, they can always frame it not as retention, but as some kind of production enhancer. Anyway, if the market keeps moving up, no one will care if we are/were paid retention. it is an EASY bonus to hit–i have an assistant do 4 hours of work and i’m done for $750k, which’ll i’ll gladly take up front. If i leave later, i leave later…i’ll just pay it back, just as i would have retention.[/quote]
4 hours to do $100mm worth of Envision Plans? My BS meter just went off.[/quote]
SH
Not that your 'meter' matters, but i have 27 HH of $3mm or more (theres 81mm right there). The Envision short sheet questionnaire is 2 pages long and requires only about 10 questions all being answered to complete the scaled down version of the plan--if you know your client to begin with, you know the answers off the top of your head. Takes about 5 minutes to complete each one. I had 15 of these profiles already done before this event, so my SA only had to enter around 25 plans, with the light data referenced to "qualify".
If all you $300k producers could just come to realize there are people out there with really good, really large businesses, and not everyone on this post is full of BS, you might learn a few things rather than question everyone so your own deflated egos and tiny little practices feel better.[/quote] 25 plans= 25bps. $81mm x 25bps= $202m, well short of the $750m you stated. IF you had 50 plans done, all for the max $3mm, you would hit $750m, but this is still not what you have posted.
If you are a million dollar producer you start at 75bps
If you do plans for 85% of your eligible households you can exceed the 3 million cap.
[quote=Sam Houston][quote=Wheat-ie] [quote=Sam Houston] [quote=Wheat-ie]4front is an easy way to pay a minimal retention to everyone in the firm: even the low producers (no production requirements). If questioned, they can always frame it not as retention, but as some kind of production enhancer. Anyway, if the market keeps moving up, no one will care if we are/were paid retention. it is an EASY bonus to hit–i have an assistant do 4 hours of work and i’m done for $750k, which’ll i’ll gladly take up front. If i leave later, i leave later…i’ll just pay it back, just as i would have retention.[/quote]
4 hours to do $100mm worth of Envision Plans? My BS meter just went off.[/quote]
SH
Not that your 'meter' matters, but i have 27 HH of $3mm or more (theres 81mm right there). The Envision short sheet questionnaire is 2 pages long and requires only about 10 questions all being answered to complete the scaled down version of the plan--if you know your client to begin with, you know the answers off the top of your head. Takes about 5 minutes to complete each one. I had 15 of these profiles already done before this event, so my SA only had to enter around 25 plans, with the light data referenced to "qualify".
If all you $300k producers could just come to realize there are people out there with really good, really large businesses, and not everyone on this post is full of BS, you might learn a few things rather than question everyone so your own deflated egos and tiny little practices feel better.[/quote] 25 plans= 25bps. $81mm x 25bps= $202m, well short of the $750m you stated. IF you had 50 plans done, all for the max $3mm, you would hit $750m, but this is still not what you have posted.[/quote] SH, You don't even know what you don't know. Before you run your math - you should find out what the rest of us are getting paid on the Envision program. Maybe utilizing Envision will help you get your business to the next level.
You are 100% correct. I barely looked at Envision because I do not want WF/WS to know any more info about my clients than is necessary and I do not want my clients to get used to or start liking anything that says WF/WS on it. I will exit this discussion noting that I have spoken out of turn. Sorry.
Agree with Wheatie: it was a way for WFC to give retention without calling it retention. I wrote a while back that 4front reminded me of the Merrill financial foundation that we used to have to sell for $250 or have the manager's foot on our ass. It was an inflexible piece of junk. I believe Merrill gave up on that program when they realized FC's were turning in plans for dead people. WFC is making the same mistake and I'm planning on taking their money. Why not get another check for cranking out a few reports.4front is an easy way to pay a minimal retention to everyone in the firm: even the low producers (no production requirements). If questioned, they can always frame it not as retention, but as some kind of production enhancer. Anyway, if the market keeps moving up, no one will care if we are/were paid retention.
it is an EASY bonus to hit–i have an assistant do 4 hours of work and i’m done for $750k, which’ll i’ll gladly take up front. If i leave later, i leave later…i’ll just pay it back, just as i would have retention.
Can I get an AMEN?!!You are 100% correct. I barely looked at Envision because I do not want WF/WS to know any more info about my clients than is necessary and I do not want my clients to get used to or start liking anything that says WF/WS on it. I will exit this discussion noting that I have spoken out of turn. Sorry.
Sam:
If your realtionship with your clients is strong enough their not going to care what company's name is on the statement. All the information about your client's is already on the system. What more do you have to disclose? Repackage the existing data and take a check. They're setting up the system. Use it.[quote=Herman Munster]Sam:
If your realtionship with your clients is strong enough their not going to care what company's name is on the statement. All the information about your client's is already on the system. What more do you have to disclose? Repackage the existing data and take a check. They're setting up the system. Use it. [/quote] ...and you don't think that Envision is a way to get the client to rely on the company? Those plans are impressive. The whole "where's my dot" concept is brilliant. I have strong relationships with my clients, however I do not need to put them into a proprietary (sp?) program that may make it harder for me in the future to get a check 1 1/2 years into the future with a 9 year handcuff.Bank run platform mumbo jumbo. Jump through the hoops to maintain the ground you walk on. WOW - if you can’t see that, get another job. This is only the beginning of your pain.
Meanwhile, WFC has good earnings, surprises Wall Street, Stumpf gets a 13 million bonus for 2008, things die down with FA's taking the kool aid in style... hmmm.... what a great platform. Glad I'm gone.[quote=Sam Houston] [quote=Herman Munster]Sam:
If your realtionship with your clients is strong enough their not going to care what company’s name is on the statement. All the information about your client’s is already on the system. What more do you have to disclose?
Repackage the existing data and take a check. They’re setting up the system. Use it. [/quote]
…and you don’t think that Envision is a way to get the client to rely on the company? Those plans are impressive. The whole “where’s my dot” concept is brilliant. I have strong relationships with my clients, however I do not need to put them into a proprietary (sp?) program that may make it harder for me in the future to get a check 1 1/2 years into the future with a 9 year handcuff.[/quote]
So you acknowledge that it is a good plan but you won’t use it to help your clients because it might hurt YOU in the future, and your chances of getting a check. You’re a real value to your clients…that’s why they won’t go with you/.
[quote=Wheat-ie] [quote=Sam Houston] [quote=Herman Munster]Sam:
If your realtionship with your clients is strong enough their not going to care what company's name is on the statement. All the information about your client's is already on the system. What more do you have to disclose?
Repackage the existing data and take a check. They're setting up the system. Use it. [/quote]
...and you don't think that Envision is a way to get the client to rely on the company? Those plans are impressive. The whole "where's my dot" concept is brilliant. I have strong relationships with my clients, however I do not need to put them into a proprietary (sp?) program that may make it harder for me in the future to get a check 1 1/2 years into the future with a 9 year handcuff.[/quote]
So you acknowledge that it is a good plan but you won't use it to help your clients because it might hurt YOU in the future, and your chances of getting a check. You're a real value to your clients....that's why they won't go with you/.[/quote] I am a real value to my clients. Maybe I should use smaller words for you. An impressive looking report does not mean it is good for the client. Envision plans set out your asset allocation to "meet the financial goals" of your clients. They had to re-do ALL their monte carlo simulations after the market melt down. The dot is a brilliant marketing concept to eliminate the clients reliance on the broker and fix their attention on said marketing. They don't need you for that, they just need that quarterly report to tell them where their dot is. I reduced my clients equity positions dramatically in Jan 2008. I don't need a colorful report or a dot to make my job harder as I do my job very well. This is what I was referring to and this is why my clients are mine and not the firms. What you don't get is that Envision is an obvious attempt to take your clients and convert them to clients of the firm. If the check and 9 year handcuff is worth that to you, go for it. More power to you.
I have no desire to work for ws/wfc for the next 9 years. Sorry
Sam:
From reading your prior posts I got the idea that you do the right thing for your clients and that you provide good value. I would also agree that the whole Envision process is designed to glue the client to the firm. However I'm not sure that I agree that it is a brilliant concept. When a firm pays FC's to complete financial planning programs half the time they're going to get plans that suck. All you have to do is adjust the assumptions and the dot will go where you want it. Ultimately, your clients are at the firm because of you so who cares about the dot. Take the cash unless you're leaving for another firm. Just my 2 cents.[quote=Herman Munster]Sam:
All you have to do is adjust the assumptions and the dot will go where you want it. [/quote] The above statement is the one true statement of ALL financial planning. Its basically Jedi to get biz.The Envision process, or application of it, is not the problem. The problem is the reason it is being used in this situation.
DL is using it to 'game' the system to offer some form of a retention, without appearing to offer retention. The Reps will now use it with minimal information to 'game' the Envision payout program. DL and WFC should have just balled up and either gave a retention, or said 'no retention'.[quote=Herman Munster]Sam:
From reading your prior posts I got the idea that you do the right thing for your clients and that you provide good value. I would also agree that the whole Envision process is designed to glue the client to the firm. However I'm not sure that I agree that it is a brilliant concept. The concept of the dot is brilliant. What better way to refocus the client away from the FA and have them rely simply on where the dot is? Not brilliant for the client or FA, brilliant for WS/WFC. When a firm pays FC's to complete financial planning programs half the time they're going to get plans that suck. All you have to do is adjust the assumptions and the dot will go where you want it. Ultimately, your clients are at the firm because of you so who cares about the dot. Take the cash unless you're leaving for another firm. Just my 2 cents. [/quote][quote=training wheels]1. You are only eligible for the bonus if you have over 25 HH per FA. My team is 3 FA’s with 2008 Production of 1.4 mil. We have 70 HH but aren’t eligilble because they split them up 3 ways bringing all 3 of us below the 25 HH minimum.
2. There are other ways to have access to the Envision program. For example, go to independent BD that clears through First Clearing. Check out www.firstclearing.com. You can access EVERYTHING we have now. Fundsource, DMA, Stupidstation, Envision etc. All you need to do is hook up with an independent BD that clears through them. For example: check out www.VSRfinancial.com. I have talked to these people and its a great boutique firm out of Kansas City. Payouts are higher than Finet and with more flexibility and independence. [/quote]You can also go directly to the people who developed Envision. They left Wachovia, licensed the software back to Wachovia, and also sell it to anyone else who wants it. They are Financeware. We have been looking into them because we like the 'dot', just not the company we work for. Go to http://www.financeware.com/ruminations/SampleStatusReport.pdf to see a sample report.
Additionally, I am on a team with a very similar scenario. We are getting screwed by this substitute for a retention we call 'Foresk*n'. Tough to feel wanted when they penalize teams so badly.
All the revenue in the firm comes from the client. This whole secret retention deal seems like ill gotten gains. Don’t do it.
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