What happened to voltmoie?
I miss his prospecting threads.
Was he fired or did he get outed and then leave the boards?
If he was outed and left how can wind post here and everyone knows who he is but voltmoie can not?
Something strange happened with these two. I haven't seen a post from either of them in a while. Im glad that we aren't hearing from windbag, but I agree with the good prospecting info and fun banter with Volt.
I agree. It’s not as much fun here without my RR boyfriend.
I’m glad they are both gone…although, I am sure that one of them is stillhappy.
They both threatened to out me…if only they knew who I really am.
Maybe it’s just that after one year at Jones, you go insane…and gay.
[quote=Still@jones]
I’m glad they are both gone…although, I am sure that one of them is stillhappy.
They both threatened to out me…if only they knew who I really am.
Maybe it’s just that after one year at Jones, you go insane…and gay.
[/quote]
Says a failure…
I thought Volt could be a pain in the ass but his insight helped me. The rookie forum is worse for him not being here.
[quote=hotair1]
[quote=Still@jones]
I’m glad they are both gone…although, I am sure that one of them is stillhappy.
They both threatened to out me…if only they knew who I really am.
Maybe it’s just that after one year at Jones, you go insane…and gay.
[/quote]Says a failure…
I thought Volt could be a pain in the ass but his insight helped me. The rookie forum is worse for him not being here.
[/quote]
What do you do, mr success?
He does regional leaders.[quote=hotair1] [quote=Still@jones] I’m glad they are both gone…although, I am sure that one of them is stillhappy.
They both threatened to out me…if only they knew who I really am.
Maybe it’s just that after one year at Jones, you go insane…and gay.
[/quote]Says a failure…
I thought Volt could be a pain in the ass but his insight helped me. The rookie forum is worse for him not being here.
[/quote]
What do you do, mr success?
[quote=Ron 14]
Something strange happened with these two. I haven’t seen a post from either of them in a while. Im glad that we aren’t hearing from windbag, but I agree with the good prospecting info and fun banter with Volt.
[/quote]Do you think Spiff reported them to Management?
[quote=BerkshireBull]
[quote=Ron 14]
Something strange happened with these two. I haven’t seen a post from either of them in a while. Im glad that we aren’t hearing from windbag, but I agree with the good prospecting info and fun banter with Volt.
[/quote]Do you think Spiff reported them to Management?[/quote]They are both allowed to post here. Having my JD I can assure you legally Jones can’t touch anything they do unless they post investment advice.
I miss both of their comments. As is the case with most forums a select group of pikers try to run it and when someone goes against their wishes people slam them. I suspect they are tearing it up sales wise and could careless about this forum.
Still@jones - I’ve read your comments / posts in the past. You’re still@idiot
[quote=cyaEDJ] [quote=BerkshireBull]
[quote=Ron 14]
Something strange happened with these two. I haven’t seen a post from either of them in a while. Im glad that we aren’t hearing from windbag, but I agree with the good prospecting info and fun banter with Volt.
[/quote]Do you think Spiff reported them to Management?[/quote]They are both allowed to post here. Having my JD I can assure you legally Jones can’t touch anything they do unless they post investment advice.
I miss both of their comments. As is the case with most forums a select group of pikers try to run it and when someone goes against their wishes people slam them. I suspect they are tearing it up sales wise and could careless about this forum.
Still@jones - I’ve read your comments / posts in the past. You’re still@idiot [/quote]
But if they were reported by one of the Jones guys here I’m sure Jones could “suggest” they not post here anylonger and they would leave the board. I’m sure most of us who are not independent have companies that wouldn’t want us posting here.
Send them a PM and ask. They both continue to visit the forum and you can see if you check their profile. For whatever reason they just choose to no longer post. I doubt Jones has anything to do with it.
[quote=cyaEDJ] [quote=BerkshireBull]
[quote=Ron 14]
Something strange happened with these two. I haven’t seen a post from either of them in a while. Im glad that we aren’t hearing from windbag, but I agree with the good prospecting info and fun banter with Volt.
[/quote]Do you think Spiff reported them to Management?[/quote]They are both allowed to post here. Having my JD I can assure you legally Jones can’t touch anything they do unless they post investment advice.
I miss both of their comments. As is the case with most forums a select group of pikers try to run it and when someone goes against their wishes people slam them. I suspect they are tearing it up sales wise and could careless about this forum.
Still@jones - I’ve read your comments / posts in the past. You’re still@idiot [/quote]
I object!!!, counselor. …pussy!
Good idea, but if they wanted us to know what they were doing surely they'd reply in this thread. I'm guessing we may never know what came about with our departed freindsSend them a PM and ask. They both continue to visit the forum and you can see if you check their profile. For whatever reason they just choose to no longer post. I doubt Jones has anything to do with it.
I’m guessing it doesn’t matter to most. If you really want to know just call Windy at his office or PM him. He really added nothing to this forum, because he has no experience.
Sorry, I was on a div. trip with Windy. We had a great time and wow the room!
[/quote] LOL...funny sh*t....is that a jealous Spiff in the background???? (Sorry Spiffy...couldn't resist!)[quote=voltmoie]Sorry, I was on a div. trip with Windy. We had a great time and wow the room!
- no, I’m taller and not so asian.
And for the record, I didn't "report" volt or wind to the Jones authorities. I did, however, send a PM to the admin to say that the amount of gay comments on here was getting out of hand. Seems like we couldn't have a decent argument around here without it getting into 5 pages of "you're so gay *&%$&#^..." I was tired of it, so I sent the PM. I'm sure I wasn't the only one.Spiff l l l VI did, however, send a PM to the admin to say that the amount of gay comments on here was getting out of hand. Seems like we couldn’t have a decent argument around here without it getting into 5 pages of “you’re so gay *&%$&#^…” I was tired of it, so I sent the PM. I’m sure I wasn’t the only one.
Spiff … send as many PMs as you want, nellie. All I have to do is pull out my Jone’s manual and I can learn everything you know. The fact you are a homophobe is your issue, not mine.
For the record... I have been busy planning my 2010 and laying the ground work for a heck of year. Part of my plans have been to remove distractions from my life. This board has been one of them. Not to say I've not learned a few things but the time spent did not create an real return on investment. What can average producers teach when you aspire for greatness? (I mean that respectfully.) So anyway, Jones has not asked me to stop posting here. Nor will they ever. I have not left the industry. I've just kept my head down and have been doing the work. Happy to move into my office in January. Good luck to everyone in the New Year. volt - 5.2mm under managment in 8 months working out of his car. I'll update you in June of 2010. (not a dollar given to me)So, you're saying you're not a homophobe? That means...
I will readily admit that I do not like to be around gay people. They creep me out. There's a reason God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. The juvenille locker room humor that was become the norm was too much. What are you talking about with the Jones manual? As to average producers, if you spent more time conversing with people like Rankstocks, YTREWQ, or BondGuy you might learn a thing or two about this business. Even a relative rookie like ice has a lot of knowledge in his brain. However, I agree with you that you should spend less time here. Especially since all of your time right now should be focused on growing your business. Good luck to you in 2010.[quote=Spaceman Spiff]
So, you're saying you're not a homophobe? That means...
I will readily admit that I do not like to be around gay people. They creep me out. There's a reason God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. The juvenille locker room humor that was become the norm was too much. What are you talking about with the Jones manual? As to average producers, if you spent more time conversing with people like Rankstocks, YTREWQ, or BondGuy you might learn a thing or two about this business. Even a relative rookie like ice has a lot of knowledge in his brain. However, I agree with you that you should spend less time here. Especially since all of your time right now should be focused on growing your business. Good luck to you in 2010. [/quote]Yes, I agree. The board is MUCH better since I've left. When I need advice or counsil I'll pick the phone up and call people I know and respect. Not screennames on a board.
I've typically found those most uncomfotable with gays have their own inner demons to deal with. Merry Christmas…I will readily admit that I do not like to be around gay people. They creep me out. There’s a reason God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. The juvenille locker room humor that was become the norm was too much
While the locker room humor is too much - because I don't think you should post anything here you wouldn't say directly to a client, insofar as this meant to be professional interaction - this goes toward gay-bashing.
For real? God punishes gay people, is what you're saying here??? First off ... not the place for that conversation, second ... you're a butthead.
[quote=Spaceman Spiff]
I will readily admit that I do not like to be around gay people. They creep me out. There's a reason God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.
[/quote] Seriously? First off, if you knew the origin of the names Sodom and Gomorrah, it would become clear that they were only given these names in retrospect, and that the entire story is fictitious. And the premise of the story is debated anyway. Dude, it's scary to think that people still think this way. Why don't we just hate black people? I mean, geez, they used to be slaves.Spaceman Spiff:
Pease talk to some who is gay. Most if not all gay people will say that the thier sexual orientation is NOT a choice, it is just the way they are made.[quote=Spaceman Spiff]
Yes, seriously. First, slaves are slaves not out of free will. People don't choose to become slaves. They are forced into it. The same cannot be said for gay people. People who are gay make a choice to be that way. Not a good comparison. Second, calling a Biblical passage ficticious is a slippery slope. If the passage about Sodom and Gomorrah is wrong, then the rest of the book might as well be also. So, you are basically calling Moses, the author of the book of Genesis, a liar. I'm not sure what church you go to, but in mine, that's not cool. The only people I know that would have any reason to say that the story of Abraham and the city of Sodom and Gomorrah is ficticious would be someone who doesn't believe that homosexuality is wrong. I find it interesting that the Bible gets sliced and diced when it's not convenient. Don't like the passage about getting drunk with wine - well, they didn't really mean it. Don't like the passage about getting divorced - well, they didn't really mean me, did they? Don't like the passage about pastors being men - well, it was a different society back then, so oppressive to women. Lock - Here is as good a place as any. God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because Abraham couldn't find any righteous people in them, save Lot and his family. The main reason was because of their immoral behavior, otherwise known as homosexuality. There are dozens of verses that talk about how God detests homosexuality. Leviticus 18 is all about who not to sleep with. It specifically says, in v.22, that men are not to lay with other men as with a woman. My Bible says "that is detestable." Do I believe that God punishes gay people. Not specifically in the way that he did with the city of Sodom. But, yes, I do believe that homosexuals, along with a bunch of other folks, myself included, will have to answer for the things we have chosen to do in our lives. This could get into a very deep theological discussion at this point, so I'll stop there. You can choose to believe what you want about homosexuality. Gay people still creep me out. [/quote] Funny....religious people creep me out way more than gays! Anyone that chooses to believe that some guy raised his arms and parted the ocean should be committed as far as i'm concerned![quote=Spaceman Spiff]
Yes, seriously. First, slaves are slaves not out of free will. People don't choose to become slaves. They are forced into it. The same cannot be said for gay people. People who are gay make a choice to be that way. Not a good comparison. Second, calling a Biblical passage ficticious is a slippery slope. If the passage about Sodom and Gomorrah is wrong, then the rest of the book might as well be also. So, you are basically calling Moses, the author of the book of Genesis, a liar. I'm not sure what church you go to, but in mine, that's not cool. The only people I know that would have any reason to say that the story of Abraham and the city of Sodom and Gomorrah is ficticious would be someone who doesn't believe that homosexuality is wrong. I find it interesting that the Bible gets sliced and diced when it's not convenient. Don't like the passage about getting drunk with wine - well, they didn't really mean it. Don't like the passage about getting divorced - well, they didn't really mean me, did they? Don't like the passage about pastors being men - well, it was a different society back then, so oppressive to women. Lock - Here is as good a place as any. God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because Abraham couldn't find any righteous people in them, save Lot and his family. The main reason was because of their immoral behavior, otherwise known as homosexuality. There are dozens of verses that talk about how God detests homosexuality. Leviticus 18 is all about who not to sleep with. It specifically says, in v.22, that men are not to lay with other men as with a woman. My Bible says "that is detestable." Do I believe that God punishes gay people. Not specifically in the way that he did with the city of Sodom. But, yes, I do believe that homosexuals, along with a bunch of other folks, myself included, will have to answer for the things we have chosen to do in our lives. This could get into a very deep theological discussion at this point, so I'll stop there. You can choose to believe what you want about homosexuality. Gay people still creep me out. [/quote] I don't even know where to start. It's 2009 dude. People used to believe a lot of things.Jack - I will respectfully disagree with you. If God would have wanted men to sleep with men he would have given half of them vaginas.
See, in order to believe that a person is born gay, you would have to believe that his creator made him that way. So, you would have to believe that God would, by his own choosing, create that person that way. If you believe that God is perfect in all the things that he does, as I do, you would know intuitively that God would not design a person to be born gay. He does give us a free will, which means we get to make our own choices and decisions in life. If the choice is to be gay, then well, it's your choice. I'm going to tell you that my Bible says that you're making a bad choice, but then you don't have to answer to me.[quote=B24]
I don't even know where to start. It's 2009 dude. People used to believe a lot of things.[/quote] You're right. People used to believe a lot of things. Like there were things that were right and there were things that were wrong. We don't really do that anymore. It's called moral relativism. What's wrong for you to do might be OK for me to do if my circumstances are different than yours. I grew up in a very conservative, very religious family. I have maintained that lifestyle and am in the process of passing it on to my kids. It doesn't suprise me that you guys think I'm out of touch with society because I believe the things I do. That's fine. I have my morality standards and you have yours.[quote=mlgone][quote=Spaceman Spiff]Jack - I will respectfully disagree with you. If God would have wanted men to sleep with men he would have given half of them vaginas.
See, in order to believe that a person is born gay, you would have to believe that his creator made him that way. So, you would have to believe that God would, by his own choosing, create that person that way. If you believe that God is perfect in all the things that he does, as I do, you would know intuitively that God would not design a person to be born gay. He does give us a free will, which means we get to make our own choices and decisions in life. If the choice is to be gay, then well, it's your choice. I'm going to tell you that my Bible says that you're making a bad choice, but then you don't have to answer to me. [/quote] you are burying yourself[/quote] How so? Is my reasoning flawed? It's difficult to discuss creation with someone who doesn't believe there is a God who is perfect and who doesn't make mistakes when He creates things.[quote=Spaceman Spiff]Jack - I will respectfully disagree with you. If God would have wanted men to sleep with men he would have given half of them vaginas.
See, in order to believe that a person is born gay, you would have to believe that his creator made him that way. So, you would have to believe that God would, by his own choosing, create that person that way. If you believe that God is perfect in all the things that he does, as I do, you would know intuitively that God would not design a person to be born gay. He does give us a free will, which means we get to make our own choices and decisions in life. If the choice is to be gay, then well, it's your choice. I'm going to tell you that my Bible says that you're making a bad choice, but then you don't have to answer to me. [/quote] Hmmmm. My niece didn't "choose" to have a collapsed lung and die at birth. My friend didn't "choose" to get buried under rubble at 1 WTC. My father didn't "choose" to have a heart defect. My cousin didn't "choose" to be born mentally retarded. Wow, that's the work of God? THAT'S perfection? I think it is the religious nutjobs like yourself that use the "God is perfect" argument when it is convenient, and write everything else off. That's right, God doesn't have control over the "bad" things. You just let him take credit for the "good" things (at least, those things that you believe to be bad or good). Spiff, you just lost all credibility on this board. Your time's up. And it's not for your beliefs. It's for your attitude about your beliefs and everyone elses. Bye Spiff.[quote=mlgone][quote=Spaceman Spiff][quote=B24]
I don't even know where to start. It's 2009 dude. People used to believe a lot of things.[/quote] You're right. People used to believe a lot of things. Like there were things that were right and there were things that were wrong. We don't really do that anymore. It's called moral relativism. What's wrong for you to do might be OK for me to do if my circumstances are different than yours. I grew up in a very conservative, very religious family. I have maintained that lifestyle and am in the process of passing it on to my kids. It doesn't suprise me that you guys think I'm out of touch with society because I believe the things I do. That's fine. I have my morality standards and you have yours. [/quote] Would be a shame if one of your siblings turned out gay, huh?[/quote] Yes, it would. But that would be their choice. At the end of the day, I would still love them. I would point out to them as many times as they would listen that their lifestyle choice is wrong and I would point them to numerous verses in the Bible that would back up my opinions, but I would still love them. It would still creep me out, but I'd love them anyway.[quote=Spaceman Spiff][quote=B24]
I don't even know where to start. It's 2009 dude. People used to believe a lot of things.[/quote] You're right. People used to believe a lot of things. Like there were things that were right and there were things that were wrong. We don't really do that anymore. It's called moral relativism. What's wrong for you to do might be OK for me to do if my circumstances are different than yours. I grew up in a very conservative, very religious family. I have maintained that lifestyle and am in the process of passing it on to my kids. It doesn't suprise me that you guys think I'm out of touch with society because I believe the things I do. That's fine. I have my morality standards and you have yours. [/quote] For what it is worth Spiff I agree a 100% with everything you have said on this thread. Good for you. There is God and there is the God that people have created in their own minds in order to feel comfortable with their own life. I wish them luck, they will need it.God is dead
Spiff hates jews by his own admission.
[quote=Ron 14][quote=Spaceman Spiff][quote=B24]
I don't even know where to start. It's 2009 dude. People used to believe a lot of things.[/quote] You're right. People used to believe a lot of things. Like there were things that were right and there were things that were wrong. We don't really do that anymore. It's called moral relativism. What's wrong for you to do might be OK for me to do if my circumstances are different than yours. I grew up in a very conservative, very religious family. I have maintained that lifestyle and am in the process of passing it on to my kids. It doesn't suprise me that you guys think I'm out of touch with society because I believe the things I do. That's fine. I have my morality standards and you have yours. [/quote] For what it is worth Spiff I agree a 100% with everything you have said on this thread. Good for you. There is God and there is the God that people have created in their own minds in order to feel comfortable with their own life. I wish them luck, they will need it. [/quote] So why is it that so many priests are caught fondling little boys? I have a conservative nutjob in my extended family, and everytime I ask him this question, he mumbles something and walks away. Life just ain't perfect, is it? That's right. Perfection when it's convenient.[quote=B24][quote=Spaceman Spiff]Jack - I will respectfully disagree with you. If God would have wanted men to sleep with men he would have given half of them vaginas.
See, in order to believe that a person is born gay, you would have to believe that his creator made him that way. So, you would have to believe that God would, by his own choosing, create that person that way. If you believe that God is perfect in all the things that he does, as I do, you would know intuitively that God would not design a person to be born gay. He does give us a free will, which means we get to make our own choices and decisions in life. If the choice is to be gay, then well, it's your choice. I'm going to tell you that my Bible says that you're making a bad choice, but then you don't have to answer to me. [/quote] Hmmmm. My niece didn't "choose" to have a collapsed lung and die at birth. My friend didn't "choose" to get buried under rubble at 1 WTC. My father didn't "choose" to have a heart defect. My cousin didn't "choose" to be born mentally retarded. Wow, that's the work of God? THAT'S perfection? I think it is the religious nutjobs like yourself that use the "God is perfect" argument when it is convenient, and write everything else off. That's right, God doesn't have control over the "bad" things. You just let him take credit for the "good" things (at least, those things that you believe to be bad or good). Spiff, you just lost all credibility on this board. Your time's up. And it's not for your beliefs. It's for your attitude about your beliefs and everyone elses. Bye Spiff. [/quote] B24 - You don't define logic, he does. He has control over the bad things and the good things. What is learned through the difficulties that many experience often spawn unbelievable progressions in human life. Your niece is in a much better place.Who the hell ever said life on earth is supposed to be perfect ?
I need a beer.
[quote=B24][quote=Spaceman Spiff]Jack - I will respectfully disagree with you. If God would have wanted men to sleep with men he would have given half of them vaginas.
See, in order to believe that a person is born gay, you would have to believe that his creator made him that way. So, you would have to believe that God would, by his own choosing, create that person that way. If you believe that God is perfect in all the things that he does, as I do, you would know intuitively that God would not design a person to be born gay. He does give us a free will, which means we get to make our own choices and decisions in life. If the choice is to be gay, then well, it's your choice. I'm going to tell you that my Bible says that you're making a bad choice, but then you don't have to answer to me. [/quote] Hmmmm. My niece didn't "choose" to have a collapsed lung and die at birth. My friend didn't "choose" to get buried under rubble at 1 WTC. My father didn't "choose" to have a heart defect. My cousin didn't "choose" to be born mentally retarded. Wow, that's the work of God? THAT'S perfection? I think it is the religious nutjobs like yourself that use the "God is perfect" argument when it is convenient, and write everything else off. That's right, God doesn't have control over the "bad" things. You just let him take credit for the "good" things (at least, those things that you believe to be bad or good). Spiff, you just lost all credibility on this board. Your time's up. And it's not for your beliefs. It's for your attitude about your beliefs and everyone elses. Bye Spiff. [/quote] I realize that the further we go with this conversation, the less you think of me. That's fine. We have a difference of opinion about life, creation, and who is in control. I am steadfast in my beliefs as you are in yours. It's just that we're on different sides of the table. Just to clear things up, I believe God is control of ALL things. Not just the good. I don't pretend to know why babies die. I don't pretend to know why your friend happened to be in WTC 1 on 9/11 and why he didn't make it out. Or why you have a mentally retarded cousin. I do believe that I know who does. And He is the only person, this side of the hereafter, who will ever know why those things happened. And so, yes, all of those things are the work of a perfect God. If you want to consider me a religious nutjob from here on out, so be it.So said Nietzsche in his work The Gay Science. Ironic, huh.God is dead
Again, it’s not so much your beliefs as it is the way you pronounce your rightousness.
And again you are using the same lame excuse, as does every other religious nutjob, "welllllll, God does everything for a reason, aaaaand, we are all beautiful and perfect, but, hey, if we could talk to God, he would tell us why he fukced it up." I just consider you very, very naive. And again, I need a beer.Here is a classic example of society today. Bash the sh*t out of the guy who stands by his beliefs, but don't make any attempt to reveal yours. Atheists, agnostics, what ?
[quote=Ron 14]
Here is a classic example of society today. Bash the sh*t out of the guy who stands by his beliefs, but don't make any attempt to reveal yours. Atheists, agnostics, what ?
[/quote] Ron, we can debate religion all day long. I am Catholic. I REALLY don't care. I do believe this was not the place to start spreading hatred. THAT is what I have against Spiffy, not his religious beliefs. My father-in-law is extremely religious. If I asked him, I BET he would say EXACTLY what Spiff is saying. But he doesn't walk around saying "You're gay, I hate you." NO. He doesn't. He has met some people that are gay. He is very pleasant to them. He has befriended them. And he does not hate them. I am certain he does not agree with or approve of their lifestyles. But he also has the common sense and decency to know that it is inappropriate and shameful to express views that he KNOWS are offensive and oppressive. And he is 84.I may be wrong, but I don’t believe the word “hate” was ever used by Spiff. If it was I am sure he knows that is wrong. He said he is uncomfortable around gays. You can’t choose a religion and then pick through what you do and do not believe. Being gay is a sin. So is lusting after the hot teller that just walked by. All sins are treated equally. I cannot just choose to ignore the lust sin because I am a more frequent violater.
You have also labeled Spiff naive. Naive by definition is lacking experience. If you claim to be Catholic, but don't follow the doctrine you would be the naive one.B - where did I say I hated anyone? I said gay people creep me out. That's a lot different than hating them. I think your father in law and I would get along well. I don't go around telling random people who are gay that they shouldn't be. I wouldn't say I've exactly been friends with any gay people, but I have worked with a few guys who were. We were friendly and professional, but I didn't pull my pocket version of the Bible out and start hitting them with it.
Human beings are far from perfect in the way we act. That doesn't mean that we aren't created exactly the way God wants us to be. I don't know if Catholics believe in free will or not, but that one premise alone can go a long way in explaining why there are bad things that happen in this world. It's not a perfect place. Hasn't been since Adam and Eve got kicked out of the garden. It's also not the worst it's ever been. Of course you'd have to believe in that story in Genesis about the flood. The point of that story was that even though God created a perfect place for us, WE screwed it up. Not Him.
This religious nutjob is heading home for the weekend. I doubt you'll see me here until after Christmas. Saturnalia for those of you who don't believe in the birth of the Chirst child. Merry Christmas everyone! ml - I like the new tagline.Spiff-
Even if you feel that way why bring it up. You aren't living up to your tagline!Beer me.
Spaceman Spiff:
<?: prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
If you believe, that God is All Knowing (Omniscient) and All-Powerful (Omnipotent) it follows that, there cannot be free will.
If God created me knowing what choice I would make, how do I have free will? He created me in such a way that I am predestined to make every choice I make. God is perfect and make no mistakes so he created me knowing what choice I will make, and being a perfect being made me as I am, so he created me to fail? If God wanted to, he created me so I would not have chosen to be gay, but he did not God made me in such a way that He know that I would choose to be gay, and then he send me to hell. Remember God is Omniscient and Omnipotent, so he knowing creates people is such a way that he knows that they will chose and action that sends them to hell, I do not call that good, I call that evil.
You big city guys are too easily offended. There are a lot of people in my part of the upper Midwest with opinions similar to Spiff on the issue. I don’t think he’s said anything outrageous but I must be in the minority…
Well there is a huge part of the country that claims to be "Christian" because they were raised that way, but when it comes down to it they have no clue what that means. And because this is the case and because our society teaches everyone that they rule their own personal "domain," most default to popular culture and the media to tell them what is the "norm" and what they should believe in.
I wonder if Volt is a Christian… isn’t he what this thread was supposed to be about? BTW Spiff, I applaud you for sticking up for what you believe in. I’m am a big city boy and although I am no more creeped out by homosexuality than I would be a fornicator, I still believe both are wrong in the eyes of the creator. I however do not believe God runs the show right now, that would be satan, the bible says so itself and that is who is to blame in addition to our own choices as to why we are in the predicament we are in now, not God.
I can believe in God, have a personal relationship with Jesus, not live in the city, and not - by any means - agree with what is being said here by Spiff, so I have some issue with Berkshire.
Kinsey’s reports in the 50s stated clearly that nearly all of us are in some part both homo and heterosexual and very few of us are strictly one or the other. Any one purporting that being gay is not, by some degree, a choice is clearly ignoring both science and any standard reading of lesbian writings. Being gay can, in fact, be a choice and often is relative to surroundings. Whether or not it is a choice is meaningless, at least as regards this discussion.
My belief comes from some simple truths - Love your neighbor as yourself; that Jesus came as the Divine Lord to rescue me from sin; and that there is no way to Heaven but through Jesus Christ. From there, I have no problem in looking into the Bible and seeing that there are translational errors; that there are cultural biases (the same ones that look down upon women, allow for genocide, purport slavery as the natural way of things) that no longer pertain to this world; and that it was in some cases written by men with an agenda of their own, long after the original authors passed the scene. From such a perspective, it’s easy to not take the word as literal, and still hold true to my beliefs.
It could be argued the relationship between Ruth and Naomi to be that of committed, consensual homosexual relationship, or between Jonathan and David (Jonathan became one in spirit with David and he loved him as himself) as the same. At any rate, every instance that I am aware of that decries homosexual acts does so within the context of force, rape, violence, promiscuity, or exploitation. I know of no passage where Jesus Christ condemns the behavior of committed, consensual couples of any sort.
I’m sad for people like Spiff that are so uncomfortable in their skins that they actually fear a segment of the population. The Lord I believe in teaches me to be inclusive, to love others as He does. And I do believe He loves us all, and asks us to find a way Home with others. Bashing gays … sorry, won’t have it.
He doesn't hate gays, nor has he bashed them. He feels uncomfortable with how they live. I work with a guy who frequently cheats on his wife and doesn't hide it. If he makes me uncomfortable does that make me an adulterer basher ?
Don't worry. You won't be exposed because you don't have a belief system. I hope you enjoy that fence you sit on.this thread has gone amazingly wrong but a lot of people have exposed their beliefs now and will be viewed very differently now…on both sides
WOW
back when God created the earth, he made gay people and straight people. The gay people had drunken pool parties all the time and lots of deviant, dirty sex. They had the most finely decorated apartments, but otherwise, accomplished little in their lives.
Straight, married people had no sex and had such frustrated lives that they would rather work in the fields or go to war than stay at home and listen to one more minute of that bitch’s whining…
over time and with lots of hard work, the straight men became more powerful and eventually controlled all of the cities, churches, states and countries and they promoted (or wrote) the specific passages in the bible that reinforced their lifestyle. So from 1452 to 1971, heterosexual marriage was fashionable.
So, I agree with Spiff that we live in a society that evolved to not be appropriate for gay activity…
oh, wait, is Spiff ok with evolution?
oh boy…
What the hell are you talking about ? Am I missing something? 5,000 years ago could two men reproduce ? Two women ? I am pretty sure society would be finished completely well before 1452 if that is when heterosexual marriage finally became the norm.back when God created the earth, he made gay people and straight people. The gay people had drunken pool parties all the time and lots of deviant, dirty sex. They had the most finely decorated apartments, but otherwise, accomplished little in their lives.
Straight, married people had no sex and had such frustrated lives that they would rather work in the fields or go to war than stay at home and listen to one more minute of that bitch’s whining…
over time and with lots of hard work, the straight men became more powerful and eventually controlled all of the cities, churches, states and countries and they promoted (or wrote) the specific passages in the bible that reinforced their lifestyle. So from 1452 to 1971, heterosexual marriage was fashionable.
So, I agree with Spiff that we live in a society that evolved to not be appropriate for gay activity…
oh, wait, is Spiff ok with evolution?
oh boy…
These days, two rocks could probably reproduce. The game is all about who can get the rights on the revenue stream.
… Being gay is a sin. [/quote] [quote=Ron 14]So is lusting after the hot teller that just walked by.
This whole thread reminds me of a quote my buddy used to blurt out at the most inappropriate times - “I’m not GAY, HE was sucking MY d***!”
Honestly, I'm gay friendly - because being anything but doesn't make sense to me. I am also a Catholic Republican - who thinks social conservatism is ruining the party. I used to be like Spff - without the religious ferver - then one day I asked myself what was wrong with gay people? Absolutely nothing (uppity dykes can get annoying though). I like most gay people I meet - they are usually the funniest bastards in the room. My father in law is gay, and you would never be able to tell if you met him. He acts like anyonelse that has served multiple times in Vietnam as infantry (a little bit crazy, and scary as hell).Spiff, I've got some questions for you.
How do you know if you are around a gay person? Would an attractive lesbian talking about the weather creeping you out? Is it just the thought of two guys getting it on that that creeps you out? Do you remember when you made the choice to be sexually attracted to women? Or did it just happen without you making the effort? God is perfect. We know that he chooses for some people to be retarded. We know that he allows tragedies to happen, etc. We don't know why he does what he does. With that being the case, why can't we accept the fact that he chose to make someone gay? It doesn't have to make sense to us. I didn't choose to be straight. It's just the way that I'm wired. Nobody is going to choose to be sexually attracted to someone of the same sex. Like you, and many straight people, the thought of two guys together creeps me out; thus I don't think about it. However, I have no issue with gays. I firmly believe that it isn't a choice to be gay. Sure, acting upon it is a choice, but the act of being gay is not a choice. What creeps me out is feminine guys. I can't stand being around them regardless of their sexual orientation. Could you force yourself to be attracted to a guy? If the answer is "no", why do you think that that a gay guy is choosing that for himself?I don’t mind the feminine ones either. One thing that I always find funny is how absolutely BAFFLED about vaginas they are - even more clueless than the average straight guy.
I’ve come to the conclusion there are a bunch of closet fags hiding behind their religion on this thread. No wonder you queers were offended by a gay joke or two. Must have really hit home.
I let god judge people.
The bible is a rag by the way. Any educated Christian knows its not the word of god.
My kids play a game called telephone at school, its where one person starts and whispers something in someone's ear and the message is passed from person to person. The joke is how convoluted the message becomes by the time it gets to the last person. I think of the bible the same way.
Disclaimer: I consider myself a believer in a higher faith and Jesus was the manWhat I am saying is the act of gay sex is a sin, so is premarital sex, so is lusting after hot tellers, so is cheating on your spouse. I am uncomfortable around a guy I work with who frequently cheats on his wife. I am also uncomfortable with having my 5 year old son spend the night at the home of a gay couple. All sins are equal and God will choose the punishment.[quote=Ron 14] … Being gay is a sin. [/quote] [quote=Ron 14]So is lusting after the hot teller that just walked by.[/quote]
Ya see … I’m pretty sure I know my Ten Commandments. Let’s see … which one of these two things is not like the other? If you’re going to suggest that all the things decried or scorned in the Old Testament are sins, then it’s time to give up bacon for breakfast and consider slavery a good idea.
Admitting you are uncomfortable around gays is no crime - heck, I find clowns frightening. Suggesting that they deserve to be punished for their sins, well, now you’re in a whole other world. [EDIT= I mean suggesting that punishing clowns for their crimes, naturally. No one in their right mind would punish gays for their sins.]
What I am saying is the act of gay sex is a sin, so is premarital sex, so is lusting after hot tellers, so is cheating on your spouse. I am uncomfortable around a guy I work with who frequently cheats on his wife. I am also uncomfortable with having my 5 year old son spend the night at the home of a gay couple. All sins are equal and God will choose the punishment. [/quote] Bearing false witness and killing are the same? That's the stuff I never understood with the bible.[quote=LockEDJ][quote=Ron 14] … Being gay is a sin. [/quote] [quote=Ron 14]So is lusting after the hot teller that just walked by.[/quote]
Ya see … I’m pretty sure I know my Ten Commandments. Let’s see … which one of these two things is not like the other? If you’re going to suggest that all the things decried or scorned in the Old Testament are sins, then it’s time to give up bacon for breakfast and consider slavery a good idea.
Admitting you are uncomfortable around gays is no crime - heck, I find clowns frightening. Suggesting that they deserve to be punished for their sins, well, now you’re in a whole other world. [EDIT= I mean suggesting that punishing clowns for their crimes, naturally. No one in their right mind would punish gays for their sins.]
Ron14, all sins are equal?? I sure hope that the fact that I want to bang the hot teller, but would never act on that feeling isn’t equivalent to a serial rapist of 2 year olds.
Would you stop your son from hanging out at houses that have gay parents?It doesn’t seem fair to me either, believe me, but the Bible puts it that way. It may be an interpretation that has been phrased the wrong way by the writers, but who am I to make that decision. It would make sense for the Bible to say that to prevent what we are doing right now, trying to judge what is worse, when we aren’t the judge.
Ron, let's assume that you believe that the Bible is God's words and not an interpretation of God's words. Even after making that assumption, we're still in a position of trying to interpret God's words from the Bible. I know that biblical scholars come to conclusions about lots of things, but since none of them have spoken to God, we can't trust any interpretations even if it is God's words. In short, how do we know that God believes that all sins are equal? What does God say about this and if he doesn't specifically say that, how do we know that the interpretation is correct? I can't believe that all sins are equal. As long as someone is still alive, we are the judge. You avoided the question about your son going to the house that had gay parents.It doesn’t seem fair to me either, believe me, but the Bible puts it that way. It may be an interpretation that has been phrased the wrong way by the writers, but who am I to make that decision. It would make sense for the Bible to say that to prevent what we are doing right now, trying to judge what is worse, when we aren’t the judge.
[quote=Ron 14]
Thus avoiding my point completely.
Nonetheless, Merry Christmas Ron.
PS - I agree, God will decide on the punishment, which is why all sins are in fact equal. Others equate the equality of the sin to mean that the punishment will be equal. False.
[quote=LockEDJ] [quote=Ron 14]
Thus avoiding my point completely.
Nonetheless, Merry Christmas Ron.
PS - I agree, God will decide on the punishment, which is why all sins are in fact equal. Others equate the equality of the sin to mean that the punishment will be equal. False. [/quote] I'm trying to understand this. If all sins are equal simply because God will decide the punishment, isn't that the same as saying that all crimes are equal because a judge will decide the punishment?
[quote=LockEDJ] [quote=Ron 14]
Thus avoiding my point completely.
Nonetheless, Merry Christmas Ron.
PS - I agree, God will decide on the punishment, which is why all sins are in fact equal. Others equate the equality of the sin to mean that the punishment will be equal. False. [/quote]
So, your loving, all knowing god punish’s people?
Why does this “god” refuse to let us know what his rules are? Why has he not appeared in 2000 years to help lead man into the light?
God is dead
I’m beginning to wonder if there are gays in this thread attacking religion as outdated and homosexuality as “normal” so that they can clear the way to recruit more weak-minded
people who are undecided to be gay.
[quote=iceco1d] Seriously guys? This is our holiday discussion? How about Merry Christmas, or Happy Holidays, or Happy New Year, or whatever you celebrate this time of year. Best of luck to everyone for a great 2010. Have a safe and happy end of the year, and enjoy your friends & families.
[/quote]
Go sell a 529 plan. You have nothing 2 add.
DD
I don’t understand gay guys. Or straight women. Lesbians I get.
I’m not a raging religious person. In fact, I beleive organized religion is just a way for man to control man. It’s also the largest and most profitable business in the entire world. The one thing I do have to comment on is that although I am not a bible beater, Gayness is in fact a choice. It’s is not in our DNA or in our heterogenic makeup to have sexual tendencies towards the same sex. It is a learned behavior. Most gay people would not even think about wanting to act on homosexual activities if it weren’t for friends who were gay, or hanging out in places that it is accepted. 90% of the time drugs are also involved in those homo sexual activities. Now i don’t have a problem at all with gay people and have a few friends with a limp wrist, but i would in fact not let my child be around a gay family. That is my choice, not a religious choice, but a choice that I made because of my studies in college. Just like you chose to believe in a fictitious book written by man, then beleive it when he says “God said to give 10% of your money to the church”. Sounds like a scam if you ask me.
Ask anyone with a psychology degree about homosexuality. It is a learned behavior and not genetic. It’s similar to alcoholism and divorce. It is not a genetic gene, but it’s a learned behavior. if you have worked with any DHS children you will see that there are alot of gay children in state custody (anywhere from 7 years old to 18, it will blow your mind to see these children act this way) and almost always it’s because their parents were homosexual.
Hope everyone has a great holiday…Hope 2010 rocks for everyone…
[quote=Ronnie Dobbs]
Ask anyone with a psychology degree about homosexuality. It is a learned behavior and not genetic. It’s similar to alcoholism and divorce. It is not a genetic gene, but it’s a learned behavior. if you have worked with any DHS children you will see that there are alot of gay children in state custody (anywhere from 7 years old to 18, it will blow your mind to see these children act this way) and almost always it’s because their parents were homosexual.
Hope everyone has a great holiday…Hope 2010 rocks for everyone…[/quote]
Just asked the woman sitting to my right, who has a PhD in Psychology. She said your statement that it’s a learned activity is VERY debatable. She said your statements about kids bring gay because they have homosexual parents is down right stupid.
Merry Christmas Retard
I don’t have the energy and I don’t feel the need to continue this debate.
Merry Christmas and I wish all of you nothing but the best in the coming year ![quote=DD]
[quote=Ronnie Dobbs]
Ask anyone with a psychology degree about homosexuality. It is a learned behavior and not genetic. It’s similar to alcoholism and divorce. It is not a genetic gene, but it’s a learned behavior. if you have worked with any DHS children you will see that there are alot of gay children in state custody (anywhere from 7 years old to 18, it will blow your mind to see these children act this way) and almost always it’s because their parents were homosexual.
Hope everyone has a great holiday…Hope 2010 rocks for everyone…[/quote]Just asked the woman sitting to my right, who has a PhD in Psychology. She said your statement that it’s a learned activity is VERY debatable. She said your statements about kids bring gay because they have homosexual parents is down right stupid.Merry Christmas Retard[/quote]
She’s obviously never worked in a behavioral facility for children in custody of the state and evaluated them based on their behavior (I have) or she doesn’t exist, one of the two. I also have a degree in Psychology, so either way you’re wrong.
Merry Christmas. Jimminy Cricket, what sort of idiotic post is this? Nobody has said anything about homosexuality being normal and weak-minded people can't be pushed to be gay. I have no idea what would cause someone to attack religion.I’m beginning to wonder if there are gays in this thread attacking religion as outdated and homosexuality as “normal” so that they can clear the way to recruit more weak-minded people who are undecided to be gay.
Primo, I'm with you on this one. I've always said that if I was a woman, I would be gay. My father-in-law claims to be a lesbian.I don’t understand gay guys. Or straight women. Lesbians I get.
The gay people who avoid homosexual activities avoid them because they aren't acceptable. If they are acceptable or if they are in a situation in which they are acceptable, they will act upon them. It's not because they chose to be gay. They were already gay. The only choice that a gay person has is whether to act upon these feelings or not. If homosexuality doesn't have a genetic component doesn't that mean that heterosexuality doesn't either? When did someone teach you to like chicks?I’m not a raging religious person. In fact, I beleive organized religion is just a way for man to control man. It’s also the largest and most profitable business in the entire world. The one thing I do have to comment on is that although I am not a bible beater, Gayness is in fact a choice. It’s is not in our DNA or in our heterogenic makeup to have sexual tendencies towards the same sex. It is a learned behavior. Most gay people would not even think about wanting to act on homosexual activities if it weren’t for friends who were gay, or hanging out in places that it is accepted. 90% of the time drugs are also involved in those homo sexual activities. Now i don’t have a problem at all with gay people and have a few friends with a limp wrist, but i would in fact not let my child be around a gay family. That is my choice, not a religious choice, but a choice that I made because of my studies in college. Just like you chose to believe in a fictitious book written by man, then beleive it when he says “God said to give 10% of your money to the church”. Sounds like a scam if you ask me.
Ask anyone with a psychology degree about homosexuality. It is a learned behavior and not genetic. It’s similar to alcoholism and divorce. It is not a genetic gene, but it’s a learned behavior. if you have worked with any DHS children you will see that there are alot of gay children in state custody (anywhere from 7 years old to 18, it will blow your mind to see these children act this way) and almost always it’s because their parents were homosexual.
Hope everyone has a great holiday…Hope 2010 rocks for everyone…
Our genitals were designed for procreation, we make the choice to use them for recreation. With whom and what gender we choose to “recreate” is our choice. I really don’t care, bang who you want and let God sort them out later. I would have to agree that effeminate (sp?) men bug me, much in the same way a tobacco chewing, army boot wearing lesbian, or a straight guy that tried too hard to make sure you know he is straight would. Your gay or straight, we get it. You don’t have to try so hard to make sure I know it.
[quote=Ronnie Dobbs] [quote=DD]
[quote=Ronnie Dobbs]
Ask anyone with a psychology degree about homosexuality. It is a learned behavior and not genetic. It’s similar to alcoholism and divorce. It is not a genetic gene, but it’s a learned behavior. if you have worked with any DHS children you will see that there are alot of gay children in state custody (anywhere from 7 years old to 18, it will blow your mind to see these children act this way) and almost always it’s because their parents were homosexual.
Hope everyone has a great holiday…Hope 2010 rocks for everyone…[/quote]Just asked the woman sitting to my right, who has a PhD in Psychology. She said your statement that it’s a learned activity is VERY debatable. She said your statements about kids bring gay because they have homosexual parents is down right stupid.Merry Christmas Retard[/quote]
She’s obviously never worked in a behavioral facility for children in custody of the state and evaluated them based on their behavior (I have) or she doesn’t exist, one of the two. I also have a degree in Psychology, so either way you’re wrong. [/quote]
Can we broker check you and see that work history on there? How many years of experince do you have?
[quote=DD]
[quote=Ronnie Dobbs] [quote=DD]
[quote=Ronnie Dobbs]
Ask anyone with a psychology degree about homosexuality. It is a learned behavior and not genetic. It’s similar to alcoholism and divorce. It is not a genetic gene, but it’s a learned behavior. if you have worked with any DHS children you will see that there are alot of gay children in state custody (anywhere from 7 years old to 18, it will blow your mind to see these children act this way) and almost always it’s because their parents were homosexual.
Hope everyone has a great holiday…Hope 2010 rocks for everyone…[/quote]Just asked the woman sitting to my right, who has a PhD in Psychology. She said your statement that it’s a learned activity is VERY debatable. She said your statements about kids bring gay because they have homosexual parents is down right stupid.Merry Christmas Retard[/quote]
She’s obviously never worked in a behavioral facility for children in custody of the state and evaluated them based on their behavior (I have) or she doesn’t exist, one of the two. I also have a degree in Psychology, so either way you’re wrong. [/quote]Can we broker check you and see that work history on there? How many years of experince do you have? [/quote]
For the record, an undergraduate degree in ANYTHING does not make you an expert on that subject. A Ph.D., however, does. Whether DD was sitting next to one or not, I don’t know.
What I DO know, from having to listen to my wife when she was writing her paper on gender studies related to behavioral disorders, that there are differing schools of thought on the subject. I personally believe that it is a choice, but my belief does not bear up under empirical studies. The other school of thought, that it is genetic, also does not bear up under empirical studies.
The simple fact is that NO one knows and there are experts on both sides. For example, my uncle (Ronnie may know him) is a professor at OU (RD I would say you could PM me for the name, but we all know that you don’t hold those sacred) and is in the same school of thought as Ronnie.
Moraen, I’ve never understood the “choice” train of thought. If it is a choice, wouldn’t we have to make a choice to be straight? Knowing plenty of gay people, I’ve never had one tell me how they chose to be gay. They just are.
You don't choose to be straight. Your body is genetically designed to be straight. Anyone who argues that, is absolutely stupid. Just look in your pants. As someone said previously, procreation is genetic but sex is recreational. Our bodies are designed to be aggressive towards mating with the female species, just like in EVERY OTHER species of animal. Procreation drives everything in this world including how we evolve. Although there are many MANY disorders, gayness is not one of them. Sure there are multiple schools of thought, but there are also people who say the holocaust and 9/11 didn't happen. Homosexuality is a learned behavior. Just like alcoholism, divorce, language learning and abuse. It's not something that is genetic. You can argue all day long with me, and argue that my degree in psychology means nothing, but thats expected of you folks. We talked quite a bit on the extent of homosexuality and there are VERY VERY FEW people in the field of psychology who beleive its genetic. Thats because there is too much obvious proof of behavioralistic learning. It doesn't make me an expert, but it DOES make me know a whole lot more than someone without one.... Don't believe me, thats ok. Let your kid hang out with a bunch of gay kids his whole life but don't blame me when he comes home with a crink in his wrist.....Moraen, I’ve never understood the “choice” train of thought. If it is a choice, wouldn’t we have to make a choice to be straight? Knowing plenty of gay people, I’ve never had one tell me how they chose to be gay. They just are.
Windy, I’m not making an argument that environment doesn’t come into play. I believe that environment is part of the equation.
I'm going to go "Dr. Laura" on this one. I believe that it is a biological mistake. Obviously, gayness, to the extent that it is genetic shouldn't be a trait that survives. However, societal pressures combined with an urge to procreate has always caused some % of the gay population to make babies. Thus, a genetic trait that shouldn't survive has done so. Why would we care what psychologists think about genetics? Isn't that like asking the dental hygentist what she thinks of athlete's foot? If the field of psychology has recently changed so that advanced genetic study is a requirement, let me know. Which genetic classes did you take? None, I presume. I find it very hard to believe that most people in the field of psychology believe that there isn't a biological component. Just like the rest of this board, I have gay clients, friends, and relatives.I hear you. I know a guy that I grew up with. He would hang out with all of us guys on the street. I grew up in Detroit and there wasn’t any room for limp wristing on our block as a kid. But Tommy was always a little different almost effeminate in the way he moved. His interests were artistic vs. a good game of street hockey. He moved away when we were young. Years later I was working the door at a bar and Tommy worked there and would still hang out with the guys. One day he took me aside and told me he was going to come out of the closet. He said he fought it all his life and had been different since his earliest memory. He was worried that I would “hate” him for it. I told him I knew he was gay since we were kids and was glad he could finally get a grip and move on in life. I don’t have a degree in psychology and have never studied fags but I can tell you he was born that way and there was nothing he could do to change it.
[quote=anonymous]Why would we care what psychologists think about genetics? Isn’t that like asking the dental hygentist what she thinks of athlete’s foot? If the field of psychology has recently changed so that advanced genetic study is a requirement, let me know. Which genetic classes did you take? None, I presume.
I find it very hard to believe that most people in the field of psychology believe that there isn't a biological component. Just like the rest of this board, I have gay clients, friends, and relatives. [/quote] If you don't think genetics is a HUGE factor in studying psychology, then you are hugely mistaken. Every psychological disorder that is studied is being studied to find out if it is either behavioral or genetic, in some way (or both) and how to counteract the disorder. Ex: Alchoholism (Behavioral), Schizophrenia (Genetic), OCD (Behavioral), etc.... For you to say that genetics isn't part of psychology shows your lack of ANY knowledge of that field. I've had my fair share of Abnormal Psychology and genetic components in my classes and I assure you, despite what degree I have achieved, I know a bit more than the average Joe. A degree doesn't matter, if you only slept through your classes. I am very intrigued by the field. I as well have gay friends and I still believe it's a choice. Sure there are biological factors involved, but noone is born gay. There is also alot of studies out there, having to do with your brain cells changing as a matter of your environment. "Is homosexuality really an inborn and normal variant of human nature? No. There is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply "genetic." And none of the research claims there is. Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public. " - National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality Here's the link. Read up. NARTH (If you have never heard of them) have very extensive studies on changing homosexuality by therapy. http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html There is NOT a gay gene and people are NOT born gay. Last post on this. Merry Christmas everyone..[quote=mlgone] [quote=BerkshireBull]
I’m beginning to wonder if there are gays in this thread attacking religion as outdated and homosexuality as “normal” so that they can clear the way to recruit more weak-minded
people who are undecided to be gay.
[/quote]
I had no idea you were another Bible Thumper…different light on you now[/quote]
Maybe you’d be better suited sticking to the “What’s Up At Firms” section then if that’s the case.
Windy, it’s always a pleasure when you don’t respond. If you did, I’m sure we’d eventually get this thread to be about you and how with NARTH’s help, you stopped sucking male organs and switched to the female variety.
This comes directly from NARTH's website: "NARTH agrees with the American Psychological Association that "biological, psychological and social factors" shape sexual identity at an early age for most people.But the difference is one of emphasis. We place more emphasis on the psychological (family, peer and social) influences, while the American Psychological Association emphasizes biological influences--and has shown no interest in (indeed, a hostility toward) investigating those same psychological and social influences."
Windy, I think that I'll take the opinion of the APA that it's primary biological over the opinion of you.Windy you are such a stroke. I have avoided replying to you at all costs and you still get bashed over and over. Good call on blaming me for all of the gay jokes and your inability to provide a rational thought. F#ck off.
Ronnie, don’t listen to these guys. Stick to what you are good at … Lying
[quote=anonymous]Windy, it’s always a pleasure when you don’t respond. If you did, I’m sure we’d eventually get this thread to be about you and how with NARTH’s help, you stopped sucking male organs and switched to the female variety.
This comes directly from NARTH's website: "NARTH agrees with the American Psychological Association that "biological, psychological and social factors" shape sexual identity at an early age for most people.But the difference is one of emphasis. We place more emphasis on the psychological (family, peer and social) influences, while the American Psychological Association emphasizes biological influences--and has shown no interest in (indeed, a hostility toward) investigating those same psychological and social influences."
Windy, I think that I'll take the opinion of the APA that it's primary biological over the opinion of you. [/quote] Or you could stop cutting and pasting nonsense together to try make stabs. #1. NARTH - Their whole premise is to prove that homosexuality is in NO WAY an inborn occurance. "It is NARTH's aim to provide a different perspective. Particularly, we want to clarify that homosexuality is not "inborn," and that gays are not "a people," in the same sense that an ethnic group is "a people"--but instead, they are (like all of us) simply individuals who exhibit particular patterns of feelings and behavior." - Directly from "Our Purpose" on NARTH's Website. #2. The APA came out with a brochure explaining Homosexuality some time back and stated "There is considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person's sexuality." Then came out last year and revoked their statement by saying "There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles;" You also have to remember that the APA is a politically driven organization. If they come straight out and say, "Homo's aren't normal", they'd have a sh*tstorm on their hands and probably lose most of their funding. Now you can continue this arguement without me, because you will not find any information that suggests that NARTH or the APA agrees with ANYONE that people are BORN gay.They suggest multiple factors, but NOONE is BORN gay. Waste your christmas weekend on it, because thats what you do. Find everyway possible to TRY and prove that I, as well as some others on this forum, do nothing but lie consistantly, without any reason to believe so. Have a Merry Holiday. Even you Ron. Hope 2010 is great for everyone.Moraen, I’ve never understood the “choice” train of thought. If it is a choice, wouldn’t we have to make a choice to be straight? Knowing plenty of gay people, I’ve never had one tell me how they chose to be gay. They just are.
I have a few gay friends.
Why would someone make the choice to be straight? If they are picked on because they don't fit in and thus cannot (or won't) compete for females in the traditional ways (being stronger, faster, smarter more successful), what choice is left for them?
Other men of similar ilk.
As for women, I have no idea why all women are NOT gay. But some of the ones who look like men - well, they might feel like they cannot attract an appropriate mate and thus decide to look for other females who cannot find a suitable mate.
If you look at some primates, some of them will have homosexual relationships (usually the males). They are ALWAYS the weaker males.
However, this begs the question: What about those weird dudes who are successful, strong and smart? They usually don't "become" gay until later in life. In which case, I have absolutely NO idea what is going on.
For all I know, it may be an instance that some are born gay, others learn it. WhoTF knows?
[quote=Ronnie Dobbs][quote=anonymous]Windy, it’s always a pleasure when you don’t respond. If you did, I’m sure we’d eventually get this thread to be about you and how with NARTH’s help, you stopped sucking male organs and switched to the female variety.
This comes directly from NARTH's website: "NARTH agrees with the American Psychological Association that "biological, psychological and social factors" shape sexual identity at an early age for most people.But the difference is one of emphasis. We place more emphasis on the psychological (family, peer and social) influences, while the American Psychological Association emphasizes biological influences--and has shown no interest in (indeed, a hostility toward) investigating those same psychological and social influences."
Windy, I think that I'll take the opinion of the APA that it's primary biological over the opinion of you. [/quote] Or you could stop cutting and pasting nonsense together to try make stabs. #1. NARTH - Their whole premise is to prove that homosexuality is in NO WAY an inborn occurance. "It is NARTH's aim to provide a different perspective. Particularly, we want to clarify that homosexuality is not "inborn," and that gays are not "a people," in the same sense that an ethnic group is "a people"--but instead, they are (like all of us) simply individuals who exhibit particular patterns of feelings and behavior." - Directly from "Our Purpose" on NARTH's Website. #2. The APA came out with a brochure explaining Homosexuality some time back and stated "There is considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person's sexuality." Then came out last year and revoked their statement by saying "There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles;" You also have to remember that the APA is a politically driven organization. If they come straight out and say, "Homo's aren't normal", they'd have a sh*tstorm on their hands and probably lose most of their funding. Now you can continue this arguement without me, because you will not find any information that suggests that NARTH or the APA agrees with ANYONE that people are BORN gay.They suggest multiple factors, but NOONE is BORN gay. Waste your christmas weekend on it, because thats what you do. Find everyway possible to TRY and prove that I, as well as some others on this forum, do nothing but lie consistantly, without any reason to believe so. Have a Merry Holiday. Even you Ron. Hope 2010 is great for everyone. [/quote] Wasn't there a Law & Order episode about this? The plot went something along the following lines. 1)Windy, portrayed by Sean Hayes of Will & Grace fame, gets caught by his wife in bed with another man. 2) Windy's wife kills the other guy and they dispose of the body. 3) Windy and his wife pray for him to be healed of his evil ways. 4) NARTH promises that they can "cure" him if he wants to change. 5) Windy becomes a very wealthy broker with strong political involvement. 6) Windy and his wife credit NARTH with changing his behavior and stopping him from being gay. 7) Unfortunately, it turns out that Windy gets caught in the men's room at an airport doing his shoe tapping routine. 8) He gets busted for murdering the "victim" of his bathroom escapades. I might be combing Law & Order plot lines, but it had something to do with NARTH (or a similar organization) not really being able to get gay people to go straight.Moraen, I think that if you talked to your gay friends, in hindsight, they will tell you that they liked people of the same sex before they got to the age that they had to find an appropriate mate. By the way, my beliefs on this subject is that like lots of things there are both biological and environmental factors at play. I think that "gayness" is more on a continuum than just "straight" or "gay". Biology will factor in to where one is on this continuum. For those like me who are way over on the straight side, nothing in the environment will cause them to be attracted to someone of the same sex. For those on the other side, no environmental factors will cause them to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex. For the people in the middle, environmental factors could certainly play a big part. There also seems to be a big male/female difference with this. For instance, a large % of college girls have at one time at least made out with someone of the same sex. This is usually a drunken thing and doesn't make the girl gay. Yet, if a guy does that, they are probably gay. Straight guys don't mess around with guys.[quote=anonymous] Moraen, I’ve never understood the “choice” train of thought. If it is a choice, wouldn’t we have to make a choice to be straight? Knowing plenty of gay people, I’ve never had one tell me how they chose to be gay. They just are. [/quote]
I have a few gay friends.
Why would someone make the choice to be straight? If they are picked on because they don’t fit in and thus cannot (or won’t) compete for females in the traditional ways (being stronger, faster, smarter more successful), what choice is left for them?
Other men of similar ilk.
As for women, I have no idea why all women are NOT gay. But some of the ones who look like men - well, they might feel like they cannot attract an appropriate mate and thus decide to look for other females who cannot find a suitable mate.
If you look at some primates, some of them will have homosexual relationships (usually the males). They are ALWAYS the weaker males.
However, this begs the question: What about those weird dudes who are successful, strong and smart? They usually don’t “become” gay until later in life. In which case, I have absolutely NO idea what is going on.
For all I know, it may be an instance that some are born gay, others learn it. WhoTF knows?
What the hell are you talking about ? Am I missing something? 5,000 years ago could two men reproduce ? Two women ? I am pretty sure society would be finished completely well before 1452 if that is when heterosexual marriage finally became the norm. [/quote][quote=Still@jones]
So, I agree with Spiff that we live in a society that evolved to not be appropriate for gay activity…
oh, wait, is Spiff ok with evolution?
oh boy…
Approximate end of the roman empire.
[quote=anonymous]]Moraen, I think that if you talked to your gay friends, in hindsight, they will tell you that they liked people of the same sex before they got to the age that they had to find an appropriate mate.
By the way, my beliefs on this subject is that like lots of things there are both biological and environmental factors at play. I think that “gayness” is more on a continuum than just “straight” or “gay”. Biology will factor in to where one is on this continuum. For those like me who are way over on the straight side, nothing in the environment will cause them to be attracted to someone of the same sex. For those on the other side, no environmental factors will cause them to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex. For the people in the middle, environmental factors could certainly play a big part.
There also seems to be a big male/female difference with this. For instance, a large % of college girls have at one time at least made out with someone of the same sex. This is usually a drunken thing and doesn’t make the girl gay. Yet, if a guy does that, they are probably gay. Straight guys don’t mess around with guys. [/quote]
No, most of them dated women, got burned and thought guys were the way to go. They were always “different” but each of them was different in a different way. One guy was goth in high school, another just hated sports (from Texas - if you don’t like sports in Texas you are automatically gay). Another guy wanted to dance. And managed to be a dancer for quite a bit of his adult life. But here’s the thing: All of the other male dancers he was around were gay.
There are some that you just have no idea about though. Could have been gay their whole lives.
I agree with women. I have a buddy though, going through a divorce. His wife left him after 16 years for another woman. Go figure.
Morean, you have an interesting theory, I actually hadn’t heard it before but it sounds plausible. Some people are programmed to take the path of least resistance in life and for some that’s being gay. Some people want acceptance anywhere they can get it and if they’re not finding it with women they’d rather find it with a man than not at all.
[quote=BerkshireBull]
Morean, you have an interesting theory, I actually hadn’t heard it before but it sounds plausible. Some people are programmed to take the path of least resistance in life and for some that’s being gay. Some people want acceptance anywhere they can get it and if they’re not finding it with women they’d rather find it with a man than not at all.
[/quote]
and that my friends is environment…AKA…Choice
With gay women. The majority of them only fool around with women because of it’s social stigma. It’s “hot” for them to make out with another woman. If guy’s thought of lesbians the way they do gay men, women wouldn’t touch each other in college. My best friend is “lesbian”, and has been for the last 7 years, but she’ll be the first to tell you that she will never marry a woman. She’s just “Having fun”. What a shocker that she was straight as hell when I met her, then came to college and met a bunch of gay women and WHOALA…
There are some women that I totally believe Moraen on, along with the men. They just aren’t accepted with the opposite sex and just go the easy route. Then demand thats who “they are”. I say BS, grow some balls and deal with a woman’s sh*t like the rest of us. Occasionally it’s worth it!
[quote=BerkshireBull]
Morean, you have an interesting theory, I actually hadn’t heard it before but it sounds plausible. Some people are programmed to take the path of least resistance in life and for some that’s being gay. Some people want acceptance anywhere they can get it and if they’re not finding it with women they’d rather find it with a man than not at all.
[/quote]
My wife works with EBD and early childhood development. We have these discussion every night. I’ve peer-reviewed (not being a peer) more articles than I’d care to admit. She is the editor of a journal that deals with these issues. The last issue that came out dealt with sexual identification and it’s role in childhood development.
Crazy stuff.
So I come up with stuff all of the time. Most of it crap.
[quote=Moraen] [quote=BerkshireBull]
Morean, you have an interesting theory, I actually hadn’t heard it before but it sounds plausible. Some people are programmed to take the path of least resistance in life and for some that’s being gay. Some people want acceptance anywhere they can get it and if they’re not finding it with women they’d rather find it with a man than not at all.
[/quote]
My wife works with EBD and early childhood development. We have these discussion every night. I’ve peer-reviewed (not being a peer) more articles than I’d care to admit. She is the editor of a journal that deals with these issues. The last issue that came out dealt with sexual identification and it’s role in childhood development.
Crazy stuff.
So I come up with stuff all of the time. Most of it crap.[/quote]
Is your wifes degree in Psych? If she deals with early childhood development then she will know exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned the children in DHS custody, who have gay parents. I remember working one night at the behavior clinic and a 10 year old boy who had gay parents was caught naked with another 11 year old boy. Come to find out, the 10 year old kid was trying that with almost every other young boy. It was very odd, but that sort of thing will break your heart. Thats why i have such a huge stance on it, i’ve seen it with my own eyes.
Being brought up by gay parents, is really no different than my friend who went to college and hung out with the gay crowd. It’s environment and anyone will do ANYTHING given the right environmental circumstances.
[quote=Ronnie Dobbs] [quote=Moraen] [quote=BerkshireBull]
Morean, you have an interesting theory, I actually hadn’t heard it before but it sounds plausible. Some people are programmed to take the path of least resistance in life and for some that’s being gay. Some people want acceptance anywhere they can get it and if they’re not finding it with women they’d rather find it with a man than not at all.
[/quote]
My wife works with EBD and early childhood development. We have these discussion every night. I’ve peer-reviewed (not being a peer) more articles than I’d care to admit. She is the editor of a journal that deals with these issues. The last issue that came out dealt with sexual identification and it’s role in childhood development.
Crazy stuff.
So I come up with stuff all of the time. Most of it crap.[/quote]
Is your wifes degree in Psych? If she deals with early childhood development then she will know exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned the children in DHS custody, who have gay parents. I remember working one night at the behavior clinic and a 10 year old boy who had gay parents was caught naked with another 11 year old boy. Come to find out, the 10 year old kid was trying that with almost every other young boy. It was very odd, but that sort of thing will break your heart. Thats why i have such a huge stance on it, i’ve seen it with my own eyes.
Being brought up by gay parents, is really no different than my friend who went to college and hung out with the gay crowd. It’s environment and anyone will do ANYTHING given the right environmental circumstances.[/quote]
She has a dual Master’s, one in Educational Psychology and the other in Special Education. Finishing up her dissertation for her Ph.D in curriculum and instruction. MOST of what she deals with is Special Education related, but sometimes the work she does crosses over into Psychology, Neuroscience and Biology. Her curriculum is heavily quant-based, so empirical data is the big deal.
So it is not specifically Psychology in nature, although a lot of the papers we read at night deal with psychology. And part of her dissertation is on gender roles and the effect of them upon identification of EBD. And EBD is tied closely to both environment and genetics, depending.
Not so sure that would be the path of least resistance..............[/quote][quote=BerkshireBull] Morean, you have an interesting theory, I actually hadn’t heard it before but it sounds plausible. Some people are programmed to take the path of least resistance in life and for some that’s being gay. Some people want acceptance anywhere they can get it and if they’re not finding it with women they’d rather find it with a man than not at all.
He said for some. But think about it. If the only other people who will talk to you and let you hang out with them are other weird guys.... it is a little easier. Certainly easier than trying to make friends with jerks that hate you because you are different.
You guys are idiots.
Fat chicks will date anyone. Ask Windy.What do you guys think of universal healthcare?
[quote=gethardgetraw]
What do you guys think of universal healthcare?
[/quote] Have you seen the way they have handled SS, Medicare, the budget, and the post office? You really want those people running healthcare too? Nice try at changing the subject though.[quote=gethardgetraw]
What do you guys think of universal healthcare?
[/quote]Life - Right
Ability to defend yourself - Right
Ability to say whatever you want - Right
Be stupid - Right
Vote for whoever you want to - Right
Retirement - Not a right
Healthcare - Not a right
TV - Not a right
Vehicle - Not a right
Driver’s License - Not a right
Let’s think about that last one for one second. We will take away somebody’s driver’s license for reckless driving and deny them the privilege of driving. But people who don’t take care of themselves and overeat - we’ll pay for their healthcare?
Health care is not a right. Unless you are unable to fend for yourself.
[quote=hotair1]You guys are idiots.
Fat chicks will date anyone. Ask Windy. [/quote]Not true. Fat chicks have been empowered by famous fat chicks and think they are hot.
Men who dress like Criss Angel but look like Pigpen with makeup on don't get fat chicks even.
What I am saying is the act of gay sex is a sin, so is premarital sex, so is lusting after hot tellers, so is cheating on your spouse. I am uncomfortable around a guy I work with who frequently cheats on his wife. I am also uncomfortable with having my 5 year old son spend the night at the home of a gay couple. All sins are equal and God will choose the punishment. [/quote] Who made these rules for what is a sin and what isn't? Are you saying that eating meat on friday is as bad as ass F**king your neighbors wife? The problem with deeply religious educated people is... Well I guess there really aren't any in the world. BTW- For what it is worth. I can't wait until you "religous people" realize that not wanting to be around people for their sexual orientation isn't ANY different from not wanting to be around Cancer patients. Also calling a group of the population "creepy" is HATE. Lastly - Voltmie to me has always sounded like an idiot. Some new dude at Jones who thinks in the first 5 months he knows what is what. I have been cracking at this company for years and I still don't know.[quote=LockEDJ][quote=Ron 14] … Being gay is a sin. [/quote] [quote=Ron 14]So is lusting after the hot teller that just walked by.[/quote]
Ya see … I’m pretty sure I know my Ten Commandments. Let’s see … which one of these two things is not like the other? If you’re going to suggest that all the things decried or scorned in the Old Testament are sins, then it’s time to give up bacon for breakfast and consider slavery a good idea.
Admitting you are uncomfortable around gays is no crime - heck, I find clowns frightening. Suggesting that they deserve to be punished for their sins, well, now you’re in a whole other world. [EDIT= I mean suggesting that punishing clowns for their crimes, naturally. No one in their right mind would punish gays for their sins.]
[quote=RealWorld]
[][/quote]
Is it hate to say that men who lust after little boys are “creepy”? If you don’t think so, then you sir are creepy.
Besides, peoples’ opinions don’t mean something is hate. I’ll go further. I think two men together are DISGUSTING, but that’s their choice. My gay friends think it’s disgusting that I have sex with my wife.
Interestingly enough Charles Darwin was a deeply religious man.
As was Galileo.
Today, there are plenty of educated religious people.
[quote=RealWorld]
Who made these rules for what is a sin and what isn't? Are you saying that eating meat on friday is as bad as ass F**king your neighbors wife? The problem with deeply religious educated people is... Well I guess there really aren't any in the world. BTW- For what it is worth. I can't wait until you "religous people" realize that not wanting to be around people for their sexual orientation isn't ANY different from not wanting to be around Cancer patients. Also calling a group of the population "creepy" is HATE. Lastly - Voltmie to me has always sounded like an idiot. Some new dude at Jones who thinks in the first 5 months he knows what is what. I have been cracking at this company for years and I still don't know. [/quote] 1 - God - See Exodus Ch. 20 - you might have heard of it being called the 10 Commandments. He passed on a lot of things to us through people like Moses, Abraham, the Apostles, and Paul, but He gave us the rulebook while he was at it. 2 - Paul wrote, I'll have to edit with the chapter and verse tomorrow since I don't have my Bible on my desk, that sexual sins are worse than others because they are a part of your body. I know I'm really paraphrasing that, but the basic idea is that when you sin sexually it has a different effect on you psychologically than say eating meat on Friday during Lent. Which, in my denomination, isn't a sin at all. Social justice isn't the same as God's judgement. In His court a misdemeanor carries the same punishment as a felony. They're all death sentences (Romans 6:23). However, there can be repentance, forgiveness, and grace. Which is a topic for another day. 3 - There are ton's of highly educated religious people. However, their beliefs are put in question by their peers and not taken seriously. The thing about highly educated non-religious people is that they lack one thing that their highly educated religious people don't - faith. Educated people typically look for empirical evidence for something before they pronounce their belief in it. They can't possible believe, because they can't prove it emperically, that there is a God and all the things that go along with that. They'll believe in evolution, global warming, and yeti, but not God. If you think there aren't any educated religious people, you need to read the works of CS Lewis. Start with the Cliff notes. 4 - In my opinion, it is absolutely different. Being gay is a choice. Getting cancer isn't. Equating a lifestyle choice to a disease isn't even a fair comparison. The fact that gay people are creepy to me isn't the same as hating them. In fact, hating them would be a sin. So, I choose to spend my time with other people who have similar viewpoints to me. You can be as gay as you want to be, doesn't matter to me, just don't invite me to your all guy sleepover and expect me to participate in the spin the bottle game. Question - a lot of you jumped on my case last week and called me a bigot for my opinions. Why is it, in this day and age, that the homosexual lifestyle is more socially acceptable than being a fundamental Christian? Why is it that society is trying to rid the country of anything religious? 52 what's his name started a thread calling the evangelical christian conservative republican (unless you're catholich, then you're OK) the most dangerous group in the country. I didn't hear anyone step up and flat out call him a bigot. Doesn't anyone see the hypocrisy in that?[quote=Spaceman Spiff] [quote=RealWorld]
Are you saying that eating meat on friday is as bad as ass F**king your neighbors wife?
The problem with deeply religious educated people is… Well I guess there really aren’t any in the world.
BTW- For what it is worth. I can’t wait until you “religous people” realize that not wanting to be around people for their sexual orientation isn’t ANY different from not wanting to be around Cancer patients.
Also calling a group of the population “creepy” is HATE.
Lastly - Voltmie to me has always sounded like an idiot. Some new dude at Jones who thinks in the first 5 months he knows what is what. I have been cracking at this company for years and I still don’t know. [/quote]
1 - God - See Exodus Ch. 20 - you might have heard of it being called the 10 Commandments. He passed on a lot of things to us through people like Moses, Abraham, the Apostles, and Paul, but He gave us the rulebook while he was at it.
2 - Paul wrote, I’ll have to edit with the chapter and verse tomorrow since I don’t have my Bible on my desk, that sexual sins are worse than others because they are a part of your body. I know I’m really paraphrasing that, but the basic idea is that when you sin sexually it has a different effect on you psychologically than say eating meat on Friday during Lent. Which, in my denomination, isn’t a sin at all.
Social justice isn’t the same as God’s judgement. In His court a misdemeanor carries the same punishment as a felony. They’re all death sentences (Romans 6:23). However, there can be repentance, forgiveness, and grace. Which is a topic for another day.
3 - There are ton’s of highly educated religious people. However, their beliefs are put in question by their peers and not taken seriously. The thing about highly educated non-religious people is that they lack one thing that their highly educated religious people don’t - faith. Educated people typically look for empirical evidence for something before they pronounce their belief in it. They can’t possible believe, because they can’t prove it emperically, that there is a God and all the things that go along with that. They’ll believe in evolution, global warming, and yeti, but not God.
If you think there aren’t any educated religious people, you need to read the works of CS Lewis. Start with the Cliff notes.
4 - In my opinion, it is absolutely different. Being gay is a choice. Getting cancer isn’t. Equating a lifestyle choice to a disease isn’t even a fair comparison.
The fact that gay people are creepy to me isn’t the same as hating them. In fact, hating them would be a sin. So, I choose to spend my time with other people who have similar viewpoints to me. You can be as gay as you want to be, doesn’t matter to me, just don’t invite me to your all guy sleepover and expect me to participate in the spin the bottle game.
Question - a lot of you jumped on my case last week and called me a bigot for my opinions. Why is it, in this day and age, that the homosexual lifestyle is more socially acceptable than being a fundamental Christian? Why is it that society is trying to rid the country of anything religious? 52 what’s his name started a thread calling the evangelical christian conservative republican (unless you’re catholich, then you’re OK) the most dangerous group in the country. I didn’t hear anyone step up and flat out call him a bigot. Doesn’t anyone see the hypocrisy in that? [/quote]
Hey now, I’ve been bashing 52 all over the place. I’m not a religious man, but I do follow some tenets.
[quote=Spaceman Spiff] …
I just looked at this passage. Funny thing, no reference to homosexuality there.
[quote=Spaceman Spiff]
Social justice isn’t the same as God’s judgement. [/quote]
And of course, this is precisely my point, made earlier … that most of the tenets used to harass gays are as culturally based as demeaning females or approving of slavery. And it’s worthwhile saying again - there are no passages in the Bible where homosexuality isn’t decried as a part of some sort of other deviancy like rape or promiscuity. As I perceive my homosexual friends, I see neither rape or promiscuity.
Painting them as such is the domain of the religious few that would prefer to simply demean them than understand them. It’s easy to think they want to get abuse little boys (when, in fact, heterosexual child abuse is far more prevalent) or to think they can’t stay faithful (when divorce rates sail above 50%), and so deserving of God’s wrath - and by extension, ours. It is a short path from demeaning a group of society, and it nearly always starts with some sort of religious justification.
As regards 52 … a butthead. As regards my comments towards yourself … I don’t think I called you a bigot and my apologies if that seems the case. I probably jumped to the conclusion that you believe that Aids was sent by our Lord to kill gays. But that’s a natural extension of what you’ve written here.
“4 - In my opinion, it is absolutely different. Being gay is a choice. Getting cancer isn’t. Equating a lifestyle choice to a disease isn’t even a fair comparison.”
Spaceman, I am really looking for some sort of explanation for this. I do understand that the act of having sex with one's own sex is a choice. If I'm not mistaken, "being gay" means that one is attracted to someone of their own sex. How is this a choice? I couldn't choose to attracted to someone of my sex even if I wanted to do so. I also couldn't choose to be attracted to the 500 pound smelly mean girl with acne and going bald. Are you saying that one has the choice as to whom they will find attractive?[quote=anonymous]“4 - In my opinion, it is absolutely different. Being gay is a choice. Getting cancer isn’t. Equating a lifestyle choice to a disease isn’t even a fair comparison.”
Spaceman, I am really looking for some sort of explanation for this. I do understand that the act of having sex with one's own sex is a choice. If I'm not mistaken, "being gay" means that one is attracted to someone of their own sex. How is this a choice? I couldn't choose to attracted to someone of my sex even if I wanted to do so. I also couldn't choose to be attracted to the 500 pound smelly mean girl with acne and going bald. Are you saying that one has the choice as to whom they will find attractive?[/quote] How often do you hear about a gay man coming out and saying "I'm straight and I was born that way"? You don't. However there are many examples of men who have been married to a woman who have said "I'm gay, always have been, I was born that way". Yet they made the choice to have sex with a woman for many years. You can't have it both ways.[quote=anonymous]“4 - In my opinion, it is absolutely different. Being gay is a choice. Getting cancer isn’t. Equating a lifestyle choice to a disease isn’t even a fair comparison.”
Spaceman, I am really looking for some sort of explanation for this. I do understand that the act of having sex with one's own sex is a choice. If I'm not mistaken, "being gay" means that one is attracted to someone of their own sex. How is this a choice? I couldn't choose to attracted to someone of my sex even if I wanted to do so. I also couldn't choose to be attracted to the 500 pound smelly mean girl with acne and going bald. Are you saying that one has the choice as to whom they will find attractive?[/quote] Depends on the number of beers.[quote=Mr.Blonde][quote=anonymous]“4 - In my opinion, it is absolutely different. Being gay is a choice. Getting cancer isn’t. Equating a lifestyle choice to a disease isn’t even a fair comparison.”
Spaceman, I am really looking for some sort of explanation for this. I do understand that the act of having sex with one's own sex is a choice. If I'm not mistaken, "being gay" means that one is attracted to someone of their own sex. How is this a choice? I couldn't choose to attracted to someone of my sex even if I wanted to do so. I also couldn't choose to be attracted to the 500 pound smelly mean girl with acne and going bald. Are you saying that one has the choice as to whom they will find attractive?[/quote] Depends on the number of beers.[/quote] P.S. Volt was a loser anywaysYou're right, you have. My point was that not one of the people who called me a bigot are about to call anyone who disagrees with my point of view a bigot.
Hey now, I’ve been bashing 52 all over the place. I’m not a religious man, but I do follow some tenets.
You're right, you have. My point was that not one of the people who called me a bigot are about to call anyone who disagrees with my point of view a bigot. [/quote] That's because tolerence does not make you a bigot douche bag.[quote=Moraen]
Hey now, I’ve been bashing 52 all over the place. I’m not a religious man, but I do follow some tenets.
You're right, you have. My point was that not one of the people who called me a bigot are about to call anyone who disagrees with my point of view a bigot. [/quote] That's because tolerence does not make you a bigot douche bag.[/quote][quote=Spaceman Spiff][quote=Moraen]
Hey now, I’ve been bashing 52 all over the place. I’m not a religious man, but I do follow some tenets.
I believe calling people who are religious "nutjobs" and other names is bigotry. That is being intolerant of peoples beliefs, correct? Who decides who is on the right side?
Once again, I go to yoga and that's my religion if you can call it that. But I'm not going to say someone is a bigot because he believes in the Bible. Or the Koran.
I think you guys are giving Spiff waaaaay to hard of a time for his beliefs. I'm glad to see that at least he stands up for them.
mlgone - “I don’t take the book as if it is gospel”
Do you take the gospel as if it is gospel ? What the hell are you talking about ? You "go to church" and send your kids to Christian school, but you don't believe the gospel is in fact the teachings of Jesus, even though that is the actual definition. And you call Spiff scary ?I could careless about Spiffs interpertation of the bible. He is hiding behind his religion as a way to express his bigot like behavior. He is a suicide bomber of words with a suit on.
I'm not a fan of homosexuality. I do not agree with their lifestyle. I tell my gay "male" friends as much. However, it is not my place to judge. God or the ground will sort it all out.Who really cares if gays are born that way or not? Everyone can choose to be around the people they want to be around. You guys don’t like strict christian believers, fine don’t hang out with them. Spiff doesn’t want to hang out at gay bars, fine he wont.
Well there is a huge difference between the gospel and the Catholic Church. Thanks for the clarification.
Great, I call anyone who wants to doctor the Christian faith to conform with today's society scary. My opinion, I dont care what you think.[quote=hotair1]
I could careless about Spiffs interpertation of the bible. He is hiding behind his religion as a way to express his bigot like behavior. He is a suicide bomber of words with a suit on.
I'm not a fan of homosexuality. I do not agree with their lifestyle. I tell my gay "male" friends as much. However, it is not my place to judge. God or the ground will sort it all out.[/quote]Yet you are judging Spiff. Some times things don't come through in posts. I am just trying to figure out what you are trying to say.
I believe Spiff is justified in taking some of the bashers to task. Here is a quote from 52new in relation to christian conservative groups:
"The idiotic reaction to national healthcare reform is further proof of the foolishness and evil of that group."
The words "foolishness" and "evil" are a little stronger than "uncomfortable" and "creepy".
[quote=Moraen] [quote=hotair1]
I could careless about Spiffs interpertation of the bible. He is hiding behind his religion as a way to express his bigot like behavior. He is a suicide bomber of words with a suit on.
I'm not a fan of homosexuality. I do not agree with their lifestyle. I tell my gay "male" friends as much. However, it is not my place to judge. God or the ground will sort it all out.[/quote]Yet you are judging Spiff. Some times things don't come through in posts. I am just trying to figure out what you are trying to say.
I believe Spiff is justified in taking some of the bashers to task. Here is a quote from 52new in relation to christian conservative groups:
"The idiotic reaction to national healthcare reform is further proof of the foolishness and evil of that group."
The words "foolishness" and "evil" are a little stronger than "uncomfortable" and "creepy".
[/quote] This is the entire point !!!!! If you say you are uncomfortable around gays, on this forum or anywhere else, you get absolutely roasted, you are a bigot. If you are uncomfortable around christians or church goers you aren't even questioned.
They are bigots as well, Ron.
Although I will confess some Christians will judge you outloud more often than any group I've come across. That does make me uncomfotable. Just like when you and Volt made out on the steets of Chicago.I know they are bigots. My point is there is a double standard when it comes to the criticism each side gets.
This is a news flash, THERE ARE GAYS WHO ARE UNCOMFORTABLE AROUND HETEROSEXUALS.Ok. So Spiff says he is uncomfortable around gays and he stands by his Christian faith and you guys destroy him. You guys make gay jokes, but that is ok ? What gives ? I am uncomfortable around gays and I rip them, at least I admit it!
[quote=Ron 14]
Ok. So Spiff says he is uncomfortable around gays and he stands by his Christian faith and you guys destroy him. You guys make gay jokes, but that is ok ? What gives ? I am uncomfortable around gays and I rip them, at least I admit it!
[/quote] Come out of the closet ad I'll tell you.[quote=Ron 14]
Ok. So Spiff says he is uncomfortable around gays and he stands by his Christian faith and you guys destroy him. You guys make gay jokes, but that is ok ? What gives ? I am uncomfortable around gays and I rip them, at least I admit it!
[/quote]It’s called the I’m right/You’re wrong six year old mentality.
[quote=LockEDJ] [quote=Spaceman Spiff] …
I just looked at this passage. Funny thing, no reference to homosexuality there.
[quote=Spaceman Spiff]
Social justice isn't the same as God's judgement. [/quote]
And of course, this is precisely my point, made earlier ... that most of the tenets used to harass gays are as culturally based as demeaning females or approving of slavery. And it's worthwhile saying again - there are no passages in the Bible where homosexuality isn't decried as a part of some sort of other deviancy like rape or promiscuity. As I perceive my homosexual friends, I see neither rape or promiscuity.
Painting them as such is the domain of the religious few that would prefer to simply demean them than understand them. It's easy to think they want to get abuse little boys (when, in fact, heterosexual child abuse is far more prevalent) or to think they can't stay faithful (when divorce rates sail above 50%), and so deserving of God's wrath - and by extension, ours. It is a short path from demeaning a group of society, and it nearly always starts with some sort of religious justification.
As regards 52 ... a butthead. As regards my comments towards yourself ... I don't think I called you a bigot and my apologies if that seems the case. I probably jumped to the conclusion that you believe that Aids was sent by our Lord to kill gays. But that's a natural extension of what you've written here.[/quote] You're correct that there is isn't a singular verse that randomly says don't be gay. There are always other specific people you shouldn't have sex with or, like in the NT, they just use the phrase sexual immorality. The assumption being there that they knew the rules God gave us back in the OT. As to the ten commandments, you're also correct that He didn't specifically reference homosexuality. He did however put in v.14 which says not to commit adultery. Which covers pretty much anything other than having sex with your husband or wife. As to it being decried as a part of another deviancy - so are you saying that as long as I'm having a homosexual relationship with just one person and not cheating on my "spouse" that it's OK? The vast majority of Christians aren't out there harrassing gay people. There are some who will, but they are the minority. The majority of us don't spend any time at all thinking about who to harrass next. We have enough trouble trying to keep ourselves in line without adding other people's issues into the mix.
Well the only thing I have learned from this debate is that nobody ever has any reason to feel uncomfortable around someone else.
If your neighbor is making out with his boyfriend on the couch and their child and your child are playing legos that is no reason to feel uncomfortable. If your friend is actively cheating on his wife that is no reason to feel uncomfortable. If a neighbor is a registered sex offender that is no reason to feel uncomfortable. If your babysitter has dudes over when she is babysitting that is no reason to feel uncomfortable. If your lawn care guy is an ex-con and your wife is home alone that is no reason to feel uncomfortable. Its all good. Its all acceptable. Lets give everyone a big hug !!!! Bigot - any person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion. I guess I am a bigot because I am utterly intolerant of all of these beliefs.[quote=mlgone]a six year old mentality is when someone feels “creepy” about gay people[/quote]
is the same true when a homosexual feels “creepy” about heterosexual relationships as happens often? or is there a double standard?
[quote=Spaceman Spiff] …so are you saying that as long as I’m having a homosexual relationship with just one person and not cheating on my “spouse” that it’s OK?
Yes. In fact, I’ve been saying just that for some time.
[/quote]
[quote=Spaceman Spiff]
The vast majority of Christians aren’t out there harrassing gay people.[/quote]
The vast majority of any people out there aren’t doing anything. The vast majority watch Jerry Springer, eat too much, don’t save enough and think Barack Obama and Obama Bin Laden are related.
At issue is that the vast majority of those that do harass gay people are, in fact, Christians.
[quote=Spaceman Spiff]… We have enough trouble trying to keep ourselves in line without adding other people’s issues into the mix[/quote]
Here we agree … I wish that people would, in fact, worry more about the themselves than the lifestyles of others. Wishing you and yours a faithful, prosperous New Year, Space.
[quote=Ron 14]
I guess I am a bigot because I am utterly intolerant of all of these beliefs. [/quote]
Well, I’m certainly not going to argue. Thanks for putting it so clearly.
To the crux of this argument God/no God. I think it takes so much more faith for an athiest/agnostic/whatever to believe in the big bang theory than my faith in Christ.
Sorry, Hulk, but I don’t think that this has to do with God/no God. Plenty of homosexuals believe in God. Plenty of people who believe in God don’t have a problem with others being gay.
[quote=LockEDJ] [quote=Ron 14]
I guess I am a bigot because I am utterly intolerant of all of these beliefs. [/quote]
Well, I'm certainly not going to argue. Thanks for putting it so clearly. [/quote] Nothing more respectable than insulting someone by taking an online post and leaving out its contents.
What makes me scary? I don't blow up buildings. I don't kill people. I send money to my church so they can help the community. I pay my taxes. My family has served in the military. I keep my house in good order. I'm not late on any payments. My kids are well behaved. I'm a part of civic organizations that help the local community and the world. I'm the guy you want as a neighbor. Probably the scariest part about me is that I don't really care for football. And I don't like beer. Evolution - Why do you believe that evolution is a more credible theory than creationism? The rest of that paragraph doesn't even make logical sense. Why do you go to church if you don't believe that the book the church was founded on is factual? Why spend your hard earned money on a Christian school if you're going to teach your kids something different than what the school teaches? I would assume because you don't want them in public school. How do you reconcile in your mind what you read in the playbook and how you live your life? Do you simply discard the parts that make you uncomfortable or that you think are outdated? Do you pick and choose what best fits for you right now based on your current circumstances? Does one writer's guidelines mean more than another? I just don't think that I could purposefully inject myself in the religious world and not believe everything wholeheartedly. What would be the point?
You are a sick dude in my opinion. Your kind is as scary as any extremist in this country. If you don’t believe in Evolution…your an idiot. I go to church and my kids go to a Christian school but I see the bible as a playbook…something to teach kids and people lessons about life. It is about values. I teach acceptance. I don’t take the book as if it is gospel, I have a brain to think outside the box. Your a follower not a leader in life…
You spew all this garbage yet I am SURE you have a Jessica Hahn in your closet somewhere.
Can you provide an example of this? Not some stupid story about an Army buddy either ... a true life example.[quote=mlgone]a six year old mentality is when someone feels “creepy” about gay people[/quote]
is the same true when a homosexual feels “creepy” about heterosexual relationships as happens often? or is there a double standard?
My wife’s uncle told me that although he loves his niece, it is absolutely “disgusting” that we sleep together.
He is an example of someone who has seemed gay his whole life. He “tried” to date women, but it made him throw up in his mouth.
This was this past Thanksgiving, in Wisconsin.
What makes me scary? I don't blow up buildings. I don't kill people. I send money to my church so they can help the community. I pay my taxes. My family has served in the military. I keep my house in good order. I'm not late on any payments. My kids are well behaved. I'm a part of civic organizations that help the local community and the world. I'm the guy you want as a neighbor. Probably the scariest part about me is that I don't really care for football. And I don't like beer. Evolution - Why do you believe that evolution is a more credible theory than creationism? The rest of that paragraph doesn't even make logical sense. Why do you go to church if you don't believe that the book the church was founded on is factual? Why spend your hard earned money on a Christian school if you're going to teach your kids something different than what the school teaches? I would assume because you don't want them in public school. How do you reconcile in your mind what you read in the playbook and how you live your life? Do you simply discard the parts that make you uncomfortable or that you think are outdated? Do you pick and choose what best fits for you right now based on your current circumstances? Does one writer's guidelines mean more than another? I just don't think that I could purposefully inject myself in the religious world and not believe everything wholeheartedly. What would be the point? [/quote] What makes me scary? Your an elitist that looks down on people that don't live your life. Creepy? Thats name calling Evolution - Why do you believe that evolution is a more credible theory than creationism? Because at this point it's scientific fact. Actually at this point it's a theory. They would call it the "law of evolution" if it was scientific fact. There is still the missing link and the Higgs-Bosun particle. However, there is more scientific evidence for evolution than creationism. Substantially more. Creationism is base on faith, not fact. The problem with intelligent design advocates and evolutionists is that one doesn't necessarily exclude the other.[quote=Spaceman Spiff][quote=mlgone]
You are a sick dude in my opinion. Your kind is as scary as any extremist in this country. If you don’t believe in Evolution…your an idiot. I go to church and my kids go to a Christian school but I see the bible as a playbook…something to teach kids and people lessons about life. It is about values. I teach acceptance. I don’t take the book as if it is gospel, I have a brain to think outside the box. Your a follower not a leader in life…
You spew all this garbage yet I am SURE you have a Jessica Hahn in your closet somewhere.
Why do you go to church if you don't believe that the book the church was founded on is factual? What rule states that I must believe everthing in the bible or the majority of it or the minority? Is this in the rules for admision? Maybe I form my own opinions based on all intellectual input.
Do you simply discard the parts that make you uncomfortable or that you think are outdated? Yes What would be the point? To be a part of my immediate community. Teach my childern values and give them a foundation for a moral compass. The point I was making is I don't care what you believe, but when you come out and say you find a group of society "creepy", I have a problem with that. [/quote]
Would you say that people who practice polygamy are "creepy"? How about men who are part of NAMBLA? Both of those are groups of society.
That I wouldn't agree with either. I know many gay people and have never heard one of them be disgusted seeing hetrosexual people. I am sure if you "tried" dating a man you would throw up. That's ok for you but why pass judgement on someone else. I don't like men but I have no problem being around someone that does[/quote][quote=Moraen]My wife’s uncle told me that although he loves his niece, it is absolutely “disgusting” that we sleep together.
He is an example of someone who has seemed gay his whole life. He “tried” to date women, but it made him throw up in his mouth.
This was this past Thanksgiving, in Wisconsin.
You bet I would! But is he being a "bigot" for saying that me sleeping with my wife is "disgusting" to him.
I have heard it from several gay friends. Especially lesbians for some reason. My aunt, for example is a bull dike (her words, not mine). Not only does she think it's disgusting for my wife to sleep with me, but she openly attempts to hit on her straight male relatives' spouses.
Polygamy: Not creepy.
NAMBLA: Creepy and belong in jail forever. However, why would anyone want more than one wife? I can understand wanting multiple sex partners but not multiple wives.What makes me scary? I don't blow up buildings. I don't kill people. I send money to my church so they can help the community. I pay my taxes. My family has served in the military. I keep my house in good order. I'm not late on any payments. My kids are well behaved. I'm a part of civic organizations that help the local community and the world. I'm the guy you want as a neighbor. Probably the scariest part about me is that I don't really care for football. And I don't like beer. Evolution - Why do you believe that evolution is a more credible theory than creationism? The rest of that paragraph doesn't even make logical sense. Why do you go to church if you don't believe that the book the church was founded on is factual? Why spend your hard earned money on a Christian school if you're going to teach your kids something different than what the school teaches? I would assume because you don't want them in public school. How do you reconcile in your mind what you read in the playbook and how you live your life? Do you simply discard the parts that make you uncomfortable or that you think are outdated? Do you pick and choose what best fits for you right now based on your current circumstances? Does one writer's guidelines mean more than another? I just don't think that I could purposefully inject myself in the religious world and not believe everything wholeheartedly. What would be the point? [/quote] What makes me scary? Your an elitist that looks down on people that don't live your life. Creepy? Thats name calling Evolution - Why do you believe that evolution is a more credible theory than creationism? Because at this point it's scientific fact. Actually at this point it's a theory. They would call it the "law of evolution" if it was scientific fact. There is still the missing link and the Higgs-Bosun particle. However, there is more scientific evidence for evolution than creationism. Substantially more. Creationism is base on faith, not fact. The problem with intelligent design advocates and evolutionists is that one doesn't necessarily exclude the other.[quote=Moraen] [quote=mlgone][quote=Spaceman Spiff][quote=mlgone]
You are a sick dude in my opinion. Your kind is as scary as any extremist in this country. If you don’t believe in Evolution…your an idiot. I go to church and my kids go to a Christian school but I see the bible as a playbook…something to teach kids and people lessons about life. It is about values. I teach acceptance. I don’t take the book as if it is gospel, I have a brain to think outside the box. Your a follower not a leader in life…
You spew all this garbage yet I am SURE you have a Jessica Hahn in your closet somewhere.
Why do you go to church if you don't believe that the book the church was founded on is factual? What rule states that I must believe everthing in the bible or the majority of it or the minority? Is this in the rules for admision? Maybe I form my own opinions based on all intellectual input.
Do you simply discard the parts that make you uncomfortable or that you think are outdated? Yes What would be the point? To be a part of my immediate community. Teach my childern values and give them a foundation for a moral compass. The point I was making is I don't care what you believe, but when you come out and say you find a group of society "creepy", I have a problem with that. [/quote]
Would you say that people who practice polygamy are "creepy"? How about men who are part of NAMBLA? Both of those are groups of society.
[/quote] I don't put gay people with Nambla people. Two consenting adults can do what they want[/quote]
Yes, two consenting adults CAN do whatever they want. One consenting adult can do what he wants. As I recall Spiff wasn't talking about going around and killing all gay people. He said they were creepy to him. Marilyn Manson is probably a good dude. But I'll be damned if he doesn't creep me out. It is because of his appearance and actions.
Two consenting adults can cut each other and drink each others blood ("vampires"), and that's creepy.
[quote=mlgone]Ted Haggard is creepy[/quote]
Who’s Ted Haggard?
[quote=mlgone]
Ted Arthur Haggard (born June 27, 1956) is a former American evangelical preacher. Known as Pastor Ted to the congregations he served, he is the founder and former pastor of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado; a founder of the Association of Life-Giving Churches; and was leader of the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE) from 2003 until November 2006.
In November 2006, he resigned from all of his leadership positions after he admitted soliciting prostitute Mike Jones for homosexual sex and methamphetamine. Initially Haggard denied even knowing Mike Jones, but as a media investigation proceeded he acknowledged that some allegations, such as his purchase of methamphetamine, were true. He later added "sexual immorality" to his list of confessions.
After the scandal was publicized, Haggard entered three weeks of intensive counseling, overseen by four ministers. In February 2007, one of those ministers, Tim Ralph, said that Haggard "is completely heterosexual."[1] Ralph later said he meant that therapy "gave Ted the tools to help to embrace his heterosexual side." As of early 2009, Haggard continues to receive counseling, and now he says that he is a “heterosexual with issues.”[2]
[/quote]Very creepy. Although you really shouldn't call him that since he is a homosexual.
What makes me scary? I don't blow up buildings. I don't kill people. I send money to my church so they can help the community. I pay my taxes. My family has served in the military. I keep my house in good order. I'm not late on any payments. My kids are well behaved. I'm a part of civic organizations that help the local community and the world. I'm the guy you want as a neighbor. Probably the scariest part about me is that I don't really care for football. And I don't like beer. Evolution - Why do you believe that evolution is a more credible theory than creationism? The rest of that paragraph doesn't even make logical sense. Why do you go to church if you don't believe that the book the church was founded on is factual? Why spend your hard earned money on a Christian school if you're going to teach your kids something different than what the school teaches? I would assume because you don't want them in public school. How do you reconcile in your mind what you read in the playbook and how you live your life? Do you simply discard the parts that make you uncomfortable or that you think are outdated? Do you pick and choose what best fits for you right now based on your current circumstances? Does one writer's guidelines mean more than another? I just don't think that I could purposefully inject myself in the religious world and not believe everything wholeheartedly. What would be the point? [/quote] What makes me scary? Your an elitist that looks down on people that don't live your life. Creepy? Thats name calling - No, I don't. I just don't agree with their lifestyle. And I don't want to be around them. Plenty of people live lives that are different than mine. In fact, most of them do. There are simply part of our society that creep me out more than others. Evolution - Why do you believe that evolution is a more credible theory than creationism? Because at this point it's scientific fact - This may be the funniest thing I've heard all day. Moraen did a good job with his post. Why do you go to church if you don't believe that the book the church was founded on is factual? What rule states that I must believe everthing in the bible or the majority of it or the minority? Is this in the rules for admission? Maybe I form my own opinions based on all intellectual input. - My guess would be that, yes, your church has a basic set of rules that govern the body. I'm not talking about the by-laws that govern the church body, but rather the foundational aspects of your denomination. The reason there are different denominations are that we can't all agree on the specifics. I would be that if you sat down with your pastor/priest that he would be able to tell you what those things are. Do you simply discard the parts that make you uncomfortable or that you think are outdated? Haven't really come across any parts like that. Then again I don't know it verse for verse. - This tells me you haven't spent that much time reading your playbook then. There are plenty of passages that would make the ordinary person uncomfortable. My dad likes to quote the verse in Leviticus that says people shouldn't tattoo their bodies. If you think I'm intolerant, you should meet him. What would be the point? To be a part of my immediate community. Teach my childern values and give them a foundation for a moral compass. The point I was making is I don't care what you believe, but when you come out and say you find a group of society "creepy", I have a problem with that. [/quote] I have to chuckle a little when you crack on me about being a bigot and that you teach your children acceptance.[quote=Spaceman Spiff][quote=mlgone]
You are a sick dude in my opinion. Your kind is as scary as any extremist in this country. If you don’t believe in Evolution…your an idiot. I go to church and my kids go to a Christian school but I see the bible as a playbook…something to teach kids and people lessons about life. It is about values. I teach acceptance. I don’t take the book as if it is gospel, I have a brain to think outside the box. Your a follower not a leader in life…
You spew all this garbage yet I am SURE you have a Jessica Hahn in your closet somewhere.
[quote=Ron 14]
You made equivalent being intolerant of gay people, with being intolerant of pedophiles and ex-cons around one’s loved ones. If you are offended, then don’t make stupid assertions and you won’t have that problem.
[quote=mlgone]The best part is he is now a life insurance salesman[/quote]
Or a Jones Rep…
ps: who’s the dancing girl…
[quote=LockEDJ]
At issue is that the vast majority of those that do harass gay people are, in fact, Christians.
Empirical evidence?
[quote=Spaceman Spiff][/quote]
[quote=LockEDJ] [quote=Ron 14]
You made equivalent being intolerant of gay people, with being intolerant of pedophiles and ex-cons around one's loved ones. If you are offended, then don't make stupid assertions and you won't have that problem. [/quote] Who said pedophile ? Is that what you think all sex offenders are ? Is that the first thing you think of ? Bigot! If you are 20 and sleep with a 17 year old girl and then marry her are you a pedofile ? You stepped in your own sh*t ! And who is to say an ex-con isn't rehabilitated ? He paid his dues, you should embrace him, love him, hire him! Or not ?
I have a few gay friends, who i am completely comfortable around (except for the flamboyant ones, which are quite a few of them). Do i agree with it, no and I believe it is their choice. Morean, I completely agree that alot of gay people are “uncomfortable” around heterosexual people. Do I believe they really are? No, i think it’s mostly an act. Sort of like the little goth kids who do everything in their power to wine about how “different” they are. Ironically, alot of them are gay as well. Marylin Manson also puts it all on for an act, he’s actually a very well educated person and very intelligent.
I also am not very religious at all. I do believe that there is something higher than us. Funny thing is, that it probably has nothing to do with any religion on this earth. Organized religion is a way to control man, written by man and that is a fact. You wouldn’t believe the homeless guy down the street when he says he’s talked to God. In fact, you’d admit him. Why would you believe the guy in a gold throne asking you for 10% of your money? The bible says nothing about another planet and anyone who believes out of the billions of other planets, that we are the ONLY living conscious beings in this universe, well i just feel sorry for you.
The Big Bang is just a theory, as Morean stated but so is almost every other scientific finding. There are very little “laws” that are proven, because there is so much about the world that we do not know. Hell relativity is just a theory, but we know for a fact that gravity exists. It’s just a theory because it is not completely understood. Same goes for Evolution. We KNOW things evolve. It happens everyday. Animals evolve (insects, animals, viruses). We see viruses and cells evolve under a microscope, after too many people take the shot for it. For Example: My cousin was born without white blood cells. (I don’t know the disease), but basically was a bubble boy until he was 4. The treatment was to slowly introduce him to the outside, so that his Red Blood cells would mutate or (evolve) into doing both the red cell functions and the white cell functions. That is exactly what happened. Now he is a normal boy. I don’t call that a miracle, I call that our bodies adapting… - Just my 2 cents
We all have our beliefs, but talking crap on a forum and bashing Spiff for his beiefs just makes you retarded.
One thing i really don’t seem to understand is this idea that their needs to be intolerance towards homosexuals simply due to religious doctrine. Sure, I understand that their are numerous biblical interpretations which have entrenched the divide, but it flies in the face of perhaps the most important tenant of Christianity. If God is all powerful, and all loving (which is the God I was raised to embrace), then why would we be intolerant of others? There are numerous references of Jesus Christ practicing tolerance, does it not follow that we should follow his lead?
I am what you would described as Christian Lite, so I do not pretend to be an expert on what the bible does or does not tell us. To be honest, I believe in evolution, we didn’t walk the earth with the dinosaurs 4000 years ago and the earth is round (yes I am being facetious), but there are many truths and much wisdom found in the bible (as well as other religious doctrines).
As for homosexuals being creepy? I am sure some are… so are some heterosexuals, . Do I understand homosexuality… I can’t say that I do… but I understand the utter contempt shown toward the gay population even less. Two consenting adults are not hurting anyone, and these people have far more to their identity than their sexual preference.
This world would be a whole lot better place with a little tolerance shown to one another, I always thought that was one of the things that Jesus tried to teach us through his many examples of sacrifice and forgiveness. I guess I try to live my life where I save my contempt for those who deserve it, such as child molesters, violent criminals, lying politicians or able body people who park in handicap spaces. It may not work for everyone, but it is easier to live my life without having to be in constant judgement of others…
[quote=kitcap] One thing i really don’t seem to understand is this idea that their needs to be intolerance towards homosexuals simply due to religious doctrine. Sure, I understand that their are numerous biblical interpretations which have entrenched the divide, but it flies in the face of perhaps the most important tenant of Christianity. If God is all powerful, and all loving (which is the God I was raised to embrace), then why would we be intolerant of others? There are numerous references of Jesus Christ practicing tolerance, does it not follow that we should follow his lead?I am what you would described as Christian Lite, so I do not pretend to be an expert on what the bible does or does not tell us. To be honest, I believe in evolution, we didn’t walk the earth with the dinosaurs 4000 years ago and the earth is round (yes I am being facetious), but there are many truths and much wisdom found in the bible (as well as other religious doctrines). As for homosexuals being creepy? I am sure some are… so are some heterosexuals, . Do I understand homosexuality… I can’t say that I do… but I understand the utter contempt shown toward the gay population even less. Two consenting adults are not hurting anyone, and these people have far more to their identity than their sexual preference. This world would be a whole lot better place with a little tolerance shown to one another, I always thought that was one of the things that Jesus tried to teach us through his many examples of sacrifice and forgiveness. I guess I try to live my life where I save my contempt for those who deserve it, such as child molesters, violent criminals, lying politicians or able body people who park in handicap spaces. It may not work for everyone, but it is easier to live my life without having to be in constant judgement of others…
[/quote]
Except for the gays will burn in hell part…I’m not really religious…but just sayin…
Windy - Your use of the word retarded and the context you continue to put it in disqualifies of all your points. How can you possibly use that word ?
Windy - Your use of the word retarded and the context you continue to put it in disqualifies of all your points. How can you possibly use that word ?
Retarded
–noun
4. Slang
a. a person who is stupid, obtuse, or ineffective in some way: a hopeless social retard.
Using the word retard does not mean that i am in anyway being an asshole to handicapped people. There are retarded people (Idiots) and Handicapped people. Wether or not you agree with my use of the word "retard" or not, i used it in very good context. Good job of trying to take a stab at me though...funny thing though. I was taking up for Spiff on his beliefs and you agreed with him on almost everything so in a way i was defending you....eh, oh well......someone snap your fingers and bring back Ron's attention to the convo instead of me......
Windy
–noun
4. Retard
a. a person who is stupid, obtuse, or ineffective in some way: a hopeless social retard.
You advocate for tolerance, then in the next breath list people who don't deserve tolerance. Didn't Jesus show tolerance towards criminals? According to your logic, you should also. Where is the tolerance for Spiff and his beliefs? Why has it become evil to speak out against any minority group, while it is completely acceptable to supress the opinions of the majority in the name of tolerance?One thing i really don’t seem to understand is this idea that their needs to be intolerance towards homosexuals simply due to religious doctrine. Sure, I understand that their are numerous biblical interpretations which have entrenched the divide, but it flies in the face of perhaps the most important tenant of Christianity. If God is all powerful, and all loving (which is the God I was raised to embrace), then why would we be intolerant of others? There are numerous references of Jesus Christ practicing tolerance, does it not follow that we should follow his lead?
I am what you would described as Christian Lite, so I do not pretend to be an expert on what the bible does or does not tell us. To be honest, I believe in evolution, we didn’t walk the earth with the dinosaurs 4000 years ago and the earth is round (yes I am being facetious), but there are many truths and much wisdom found in the bible (as well as other religious doctrines).
As for homosexuals being creepy? I am sure some are… so are some heterosexuals, . Do I understand homosexuality… I can’t say that I do… but I understand the utter contempt shown toward the gay population even less. Two consenting adults are not hurting anyone, and these people have far more to their identity than their sexual preference.
This world would be a whole lot better place with a little tolerance shown to one another, I always thought that was one of the things that Jesus tried to teach us through his many examples of sacrifice and forgiveness. I guess I try to live my life where I save my contempt for those who deserve it, such as child molesters, violent criminals, lying politicians or able body people who park in handicap spaces. It may not work for everyone, but it is easier to live my life without having to be in constant judgement of others…
No sh*t ! That is why I am telling you to use a different word because you don't help the argument when you call people retards. You are a c***. I obviously mean an adult male chicken, not an obscene name for a penis.[quote=Ron 14] Windy - Your use of the word retarded and the context you continue to put it in disqualifies of all your points. How can you possibly use that word ?[/quote]
Retarded
–noun
4. Slang
a. a person who is stupid, obtuse, or ineffective in some way: a hopeless social retard.
Using the word retard does not mean that i am in anyway being an asshole to handicapped people. There are retarded people (Idiots) and Handicapped people. Wether or not you agree with my use of the word “retard” or not, i used it in very good context. Good job of trying to take a stab at me though…funny thing though. I was taking up for Spiff on his beliefs and you agreed with him on almost everything so in a way i was defending you.…eh, oh well…someone snap your fingers and bring back Ron’s attention to the convo instead of me…
Evolution may be a theory…but it is also repeatable in a laboratory.
Furthermore, the method by which the theory of evolution was established is the same method used to invent laptops, cell phones, put men on the moon, and make starbucks coffee so yummy!
Since I’m a betting man, I bet the theory of evolution is correct.
And if it makes you happy, I will also say that God blah, blah, blah…
[quote=Still@jones] Evolution may be a theory…but it is also repeatable in a laboratory. Furthermore, the method by which the theory of evolution was established is the same method used to invent laptops, cell phones, put men on the moon, and make starbucks coffee so yummy! Since I’m a betting man, I bet the theory of evolution is correct. And if it makes you happy, I will also say that God blah, blah, blah…
[/quote]
Higgs-Bosun (more big-bang but also applies to makeup of matter)? Missing link?
The problem with the evolutionary theory is that it is so all-encompassing - difficult to prove completely until you have all of the pieces.
But like I said before, evolution and intelligent design are not mutually exclusive. And that is the argument.
Even Darwin said this:
“life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one”. 2nd edition, On the Origin of Species.
The theory of evolution has not and will not be proven because life cannot be started chemically. Only one phase of the seven theories needed to prove the theory seems to be provable and that is Micro evolution. We have had the theory of evolution( the end result) for over 150 years, but we can’t prove the beginning phase, or any of the other six phases. The bible has been proven to be true over and over even with many attempts to disprove it, so at least the version outlined in the bible has the most credibility of any that is known now. I think that the fact that the best efforts of many to disprove it have failed for good reason.
[quote=Primo]You advocate for tolerance, then in the next breath list people who don’t deserve tolerance. Didn’t Jesus show tolerance towards criminals? According to your logic, you should also. Where is the tolerance for Spiff and his beliefs? Why has it become evil to speak out against any minority group, while it is completely acceptable to supress the opinions of the majority in the name of tolerance?
[/quote]I am not intolerant of Spiff's point of view, he has as much right to his beliefs as anyone in society. I can understand him being uncomfortable, especially given his beliefs, that is not intolerance it is just human nature.
Jesus showed forgiveness for criminals, but I am pretty sure that is not the same as tolerating criminal behavior. There is a big difference between the actions of two consenting adults and those of one person victimizing another.
My point was simply to outline that I believe society would be better off with a little more tolerance of others. That is not to say we need be void of beliefs or opinions, simply we show a little more respect to the beliefs, opinions and lifestyles of others. I think it is really hard to argue against the notion that the world could use a little more tolerance, but then again perhaps I am just nieve.
[quote=MR.D] The theory of evolution has not and will not be proven because life cannot be started chemically. Only one phase of the seven theories needed to prove the theory seems to be provable and that is Micro evolution. We have had the theory of evolution( the end result) for over 150 years, but we can’t prove the beginning phase, or any of the other six phases. The bible has been proven to be true over and over even with many attempts to disprove it, so at least the version outlined in the bible has the most credibility of any that is known now. I think that the fact that the best efforts of many to disprove it have failed for good reason.
[/quote]
The bible has been proven over and over? In what way?
Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed? Moses parting the Red Sea?
The bible is allegory. Not to mention that the edition most people use is the King James version which is an inaccurate translation.
The reason life cannot be chemically started is simply a time factor. RNA can be created in the lab. The time necessary to create life is not within the realm of present-day science.
Anyway, things do evolve. There is evidence of that. Think about vestigial organs. Your appendix, frontal sinuses, etc.
[quote=Ronnie Dobbs]
We all have our beliefs, but talking crap on a forum and bashing Spiff for his beiefs just makes you retarded. [/quote]
Bashing people for their beliefs on forums is purpose of the forums. Make a comment, be prepared to be taken to task for it and defend it. He doesn’t get a pass because it’s about religion or his thoughts on gays or Darwin or whether the Mets should have signed Jason Bay.
[quote=kitcap] [quote=Primo]You advocate for tolerance, then in the next breath list people who don’t deserve tolerance. Didn’t Jesus show tolerance towards criminals? According to your logic, you should also. Where is the tolerance for Spiff and his beliefs? Why has it become evil to speak out against any minority group, while it is completely acceptable to supress the opinions of the majority in the name of tolerance?
[/quote]I am not intolerant of Spiff's point of view, he has as much right to his beliefs as anyone in society. I can understand him being uncomfortable, especially given his beliefs, that is not intolerance it is just human nature.
Jesus showed forgiveness for criminals, but I am pretty sure that is not the same as tolerating criminal behavior. There is a big difference between the actions of two consenting adults and those of one person victimizing another.
My point was simply to outline that I believe society would be better off with a little more tolerance of others. That is not to say we need be void of beliefs or opinions, simply we show a little more respect to the beliefs, opinions and lifestyles of others. I think it is really hard to argue against the notion that the world could use a little more tolerance, but then again perhaps I am just nieve.
[/quote] At what point does tolerance of others beliefs subjugate (sp?) our own beliefs to the point where having beliefs is no longer warranted? Why is it terrible for Spiff to stand up for his beliefs, and honorable for someone else's beliefs (in this case tolerance of homosexuality) to be tolerated? They don't say the Pledge of Allegiance in school anymore because of two words, "Under God". Yet the majority of people believe in God and have no problem with these words. We have transformed the way we act and the things we say to make them conform to the lowest possible denominator. Our children cannot say the Pledge, yet (only using as an example because it is the topic of this thread) gay men can parade in the streets wearing nothing but a leather thong. Why?
[quote=MR.D] The theory of evolution has not and will not be proven because life cannot be started chemically. Only one phase of the seven theories needed to prove the theory seems to be provable and that is Micro evolution. We have had the theory of evolution( the end result) for over 150 years, but we can’t prove the beginning phase, or any of the other six phases. The bible has been proven to be true over and over even with many attempts to disprove it, so at least the version outlined in the bible has the most credibility of any that is known now. I think that the fact that the best efforts of many to disprove it have failed for good reason.
[/quote]
Which version? Because there are over 100 MAN MADE books…in tons of different languages and all of them having different content…Hmm…better pick the right one to follow, or you’re going to hell…lol…
As far as your evolution statement. Blah----
"The term ‘microevolution’ has recently become popular among those who hold to the Intelligent Design theory, and in particular among young Earth creationists. The claim that microevolution is qualitatively different from macroevolution is fallacious, as the main difference between the two processes is that one occurs within a few generations, whilst the other takes place over thousands of years (i.e. a quantitative difference). Essentially they describe the same process.
The attempt to differentiate between microevolution and macroevolution is considered to have no scientific basis by any mainstream scientific organization, including the American Association for the Advancement of Science. Contrary to belief among the anti-evolution movement proponents, evolution of life forms beyond the species level (“macroevolution”, i.e. speciation in a specific case) has indeed been observed and documented by scientists on many occasions.]"
hmmm…Not Proven?
Primo, you are exactly right. The majority must stand for the beliefs that our country was founded on, which not only is religious, but we must regain control of our government which now controls us. They are out of control and need to be put back into the position of answering to the public. It is ridiculous to see Reid promising our money to senators to obtain a vote on a bill before the senate. I think he should be charged for criminal activity.
[quote=MR.D]Primo, you are exactly right. The majority must stand for the beliefs that our country was founded on, which not only is religious, but we must regain control of our government which now controls us. They are out of control and need to be put back into the position of answering to the public. It is ridiculous to see Reid promising our money to senators to obtain a vote on a bill before the senate. I think he should be charged for criminal activity.
[/quote]
This post is silly…
Windy-Which version? Because there are over 100 MAN MADE books...in tons of different languages and all of them having different content...Hmm...better pick the right one to follow, or you're going to hell....lol...
All of them have different content, that is laughable.[quote=Primo]At what point does tolerance of others beliefs subjugate (sp?) our own beliefs to the point where having beliefs is no longer warranted? Why is it terrible for Spiff to stand up for his beliefs, and honorable for someone else’s beliefs (in this case tolerance of homosexuality) to be tolerated? They don’t say the Pledge of Allegiance in school anymore because of two words, “Under God”. Yet the majority of people believe in God and have no problem with these words. We have transformed the way we act and the things we say to make them conform to the lowest possible denominator. Our children cannot say the Pledge, yet (only using as an example because it is the topic of this thread) gay men can parade in the streets wearing nothing but a leather thong. Why?[/quote]
Tolerance does not mean intolerance of the majority. Just for the record, as state above, I never said Spiff’s view is ‘so terrible’. He is entitled to his faith, just like a consenting adult is entitled to select their own partner. Why do we need to be intolerant of others in order to stand up for our own beliefs? I dont undrstand. Are the two mutually exclusive?
I would like to stay on point though, and not go off focus on the Pledge, or prayer in school, or creationism vs evolution, etc. We can criss cross this conversation into a never ending myriad of topics, so for the sake of simplicity, and relavence, why does it matter to you if gay men wish to parade in the streets? I suppose if they are wearing something obsence, then it would be inappropriate and you could take offense. But that could be said for a number of things. There is a gay parade in our city every year, and while there are some rather flamboyant costumes, nothing comes to mind which borders on public indecency. In fact, there are more straight people in attendence than gay, as the whole event is one of the cities more entertaining events in the summer. At the end of the day, these sort of events help to promote goodwill within the community, much like various cultural festivals. They may take place in a public venue, but are financed and organized privately. I really do not see the harm…
You have not been paying attention to society. Intolerance vs. the majority is widely accepted. Simply read this thread. Intolerance vs. a "protected class" is bashed. Most people (majority) have no problem with the Pledge, yet it is kept out of schools. A minority of people think a gay pride parade is good use of an afternoon, yet if it were to be stopped, watch the lawsuits flood in.[quote=Primo]At what point does tolerance of others beliefs subjugate (sp?) our own beliefs to the point where having beliefs is no longer warranted? Why is it terrible for Spiff to stand up for his beliefs, and honorable for someone else’s beliefs (in this case tolerance of homosexuality) to be tolerated? They don’t say the Pledge of Allegiance in school anymore because of two words, “Under God”. Yet the majority of people believe in God and have no problem with these words. We have transformed the way we act and the things we say to make them conform to the lowest possible denominator. Our children cannot say the Pledge, yet (only using as an example because it is the topic of this thread) gay men can parade in the streets wearing nothing but a leather thong. Why?[/quote]
Tolerance does not mean intolerance of the majority. Just for the record, as state above, I never said Spiff’s view is ‘so terrible’. He is entitled to his faith, just like a consenting adult is entitled to select their own partner. Why do we need to be intolerant of others in order to stand up for our own beliefs? I dont undrstand. Are the two mutually exclusive?
I would like to stay on point though, and not go off focus on the Pledge, or prayer in school, or creationism vs evolution, etc. We can criss cross this conversation into a never ending myriad of topics, so for the sake of simplicity, and relavence, why does it matter to you if gay men wish to parade in the streets? I suppose if they are wearing something obsence, then it would be inappropriate and you could take offense. But that could be said for a number of things. There is a gay parade in our city every year, and while there are some rather flamboyant costumes, nothing comes to mind which borders on public indecency. In fact, there are more straight people in attendence than gay, as the whole event is one of the cities more entertaining events in the summer. At the end of the day, these sort of events help to promote goodwill within the community, much like various cultural festivals. They may take place in a public venue, but are financed and organized privately. I really do not see the harm…
[quote=Primo]You have not been paying attention to society. Intolerance vs. the majority is widely accepted. Simply read this thread. Intolerance vs. a “protected class” is bashed. Most people (majority) have no problem with the Pledge, yet it is kept out of schools. A minority of people think a gay pride parade is good use of an afternoon, yet if it were to be stopped, watch the lawsuits flood in.[/quote]
So… in order for the majority to be satiated, the minority need to be squashed? I believe that was what Mills called ‘tyranny of the majority’. What does the Pledge in school has to do with Gay Parades? I believe the argument against the Pledge was the need to separate church and state. That is a different topic entirely. There is nothing in society which stops you from doing the Pledge, or organizing a public forum where a group of people do the Pledge of Allegiance. Just like there is no movement to organize a gay parade in the public schools. Tolerance… Why is there a problem if a private group organize a parade? I thought Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness were two of the main tenants of the Declaration of Independence?
[quote=Primo]You have not been paying attention to society. Intolerance vs. the majority is widely accepted. Simply read this thread. Intolerance vs. a “protected class” is bashed. Most people (majority) have no problem with the Pledge, yet it is kept out of schools. A minority of people think a gay pride parade is good use of an afternoon, yet if it were to be stopped, watch the lawsuits flood in.[/quote]
So… in order for the majority to be satiated, the minority need to be squashed? Quite the opposite. I believe that was what Mills called ‘tyranny of the majority’. What does the Pledge in school has to do with Gay Parades? I believe the argument against the Pledge was the need to separate church and state. The Pledge said in a public school is different from a parade held on public streets how? Both are held in public places. The difference is one is based on religion, while the other is based on non-religion. Since the majority believes in God, shouldn’t both be allowed in the pursuit of tolerance? I could kill a minority while uttering a slur and be convicted of a hate crime. The same situation in reverse does not apply. Why? Is the crime different simply because I am not a minority? THis is my issue. If tolerance is the game of the day, where is the tolerance for what I believe in? That is a different topic entirely. There is nothing in society which stops you from doing the Pledge, or organizing a public forum where a group of people do the Pledge of Allegiance. Just like there is no movement to organize a gay parade in the public schools. Tolerance… Why is there a problem if a private group organize a parade? I thought Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness were two of the main tenants of the Declaration of Independence?
Primo -
This is an arguement that will never be won, ask any Iraqi.
[quote=Primo]The Pledge said in a public school is different from a parade held on public streets how? Both are held in public places. The difference is one is based on religion, while the other is based on non-religion. Since the majority believes in God, shouldn’t both be allowed in the pursuit of tolerance?
[/quote]
One is in a publicly funded school system, the other is privately organized and funded. Yes, they are held in public places, but there is nothing preventing you from sending your children to a private school, where you will not be using public dollars. For the record, I am not advocating that the Pledge of Allegiance should be excluded from public schools, but I understand the basis for the challenge. I do not think we are comparing apples to apples in this example. The challenge for this is not an organized minority, it is a legal challenge in the court system.
[quote=Primo]I could kill a minority while uttering a slur and be convicted of a hate crime. The same situation in reverse does not apply. Why? Is the crime different simply because I am not a minority? This is my issue.
[/quote]
I am not a lawyer, but i would agree with you if this is indeed true. I hate these type of examples, from either side of the coin. It is like the debate where it is often cited where African American males are vastly more likely to face the death penalty. The fact remains, that it is hard for white males to complain injustice. If you kill a Caucasian in our society, you are more likely to face the death penalty than if you kill a minority, that is a statistical fact, hate crime or not. That being said, it shouldn’t really doesn’t matter, if you kill someone in our society then justice should be equal for all, and on paper it is, it is our job (as the people) to hold the courts accountable. Forgiveness can be spiritual, but I can think of very few examples where those people deserve to ever walk free. This is less about revenge, and more about protecting our society. Hate crime… when does someone kill another where hate is not involved. But this is not about tolerance, I feel equally bad for the victim of a hate crime whether they are Christian or Gay or a gay christian…
[quote=Primo]If tolerance is the game of the day, where is the tolerance for what I believe in? …
[/quote]
I don’t know what you mean game of the day… For myself, it is a personal choice. Sure, there are times where I feel my lifestyle is being persecuted because I happen to be part of the majority. But I shutter to think that I need to become militant about my beliefs and excluding of others to protect my way of life. This is tolerance, not conformity.
[quote=Primo]The Pledge said in a public school is different from a parade held on public streets how? Both are held in public places. The difference is one is based on religion, while the other is based on non-religion. Since the majority believes in God, shouldn’t both be allowed in the pursuit of tolerance?
[/quote]
One is in a publicly funded school system, the other is privately organized and funded. Yes, they are held in public places, but there is nothing preventing you from sending your children to a private school, Just as there is nothing preventing a parade on private property. Streets are publically funded. where you will not be using public dollars. For the record, I am not advocating that the Pledge of Allegiance should be excluded from public schools, but I understand the basis for the challenge. Saying the Pledge does not advocate a religious preference, it is a pledge to our country, which provides the protections necessary to have a parade celebrating whatever you want to celebrate.I do not think we are comparing apples to apples in this example. The challenge for this is not an organized minority,my point exactly, it is a challenge to protect the minority number of students who may be offended. it is a legal challenge in the court system.
[quote=Primo]I could kill a minority while uttering a slur and be convicted of a hate crime. The same situation in reverse does not apply. Why? Is the crime different simply because I am not a minority? This is my issue.
[/quote]
I am not a lawyer, but i would agree with you if this is indeed true. I hate these type of examples, from either side of the coin. It is like the debate where it is often cited where African American males are vastly more likely to face the death penalty. To me it really doesn’t matter, if you kill someone in our society then justice should be equal for all, and on paper it is, it is our job (as the people) to hold the courts accountable. Forgiveness can be spiritual, but I can think of very few examples where those people deserve to ever walk free. This is less about revenge, and more about protecting our society. Hate crime… when does someone kill another where hate is not involved. But this is not about tolerance, I feel equally bad for the victim of a hate crime whether they are Christian or Gay or a gay christian…
[quote=Primo]If tolerance is the game of the day, where is the tolerance for what I believe in? …
[/quote]
I don’t know what you mean game of the day… For myself, it is a personal choice. Sure, there are times where I feel my lifestyle is being persecuted because I happen to be part of the majority. Where is your protection during this time. They don’t exist. But I shutter to think that I need to become militant Who’s talking about becoming militant? Typically, minorities become militant (litigious [sp?}) when they feel their rights are being violated, but someone like Spiff is bashed for an opinion that falls closer to the majority than the minority about my beliefs and excluding of others to protect my way of life. This is tolerance, not conformity. I am all for being tolerant. However, when does forcing the majority to be tolerant lead to conformity to the minority?
[quote=Ron 14]
Windy-Which version? Because there are over 100 MAN MADE books…in tons of different languages and all of them having different content…Hmm…better pick the right one to follow, or you’re going to hell…lol…
All of them have different content, that is laughable. [/quote]
Tell me that the New Testament is EXACTLY like the OLD Testament and tell me that foreign languages can always 100% be translated exactly the same? They can’t and the different versions of the bible are very different. I’m not even religious and I know that…
[quote=Primo] Just as there is nothing preventing a parade on private property. Streets are publically funded.
[/quote]
Too tired to continue this one… and need to finish off some work… but one point I want to ask… you consider the use of public streets a subsidy? We are talking the First Amendment here… Freedom of Assembly. If a private organization wants to have a protest, or parade, in a peaceful manner, you would deny them that right?
There is nothing stop a gay parade, or a parade in support of reinstating the Pledge in Schools, it is an equal and comparable playing field.
There is nothing stopping anyone in our society from sending their kids to a private school, which better reflects their religious values. Obviously this is a costly alternative, but our society should not be in the business of subsidizing religious education.
[quote=Primo]… Didn’t Jesus show tolerance towards criminals?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
Jesus showed forgiveness … not tolerance!
[quote=kitcap]
[quote=Primo] Just as there is nothing preventing a parade on private property. Streets are publically funded.
[/quote]
Too tired to continue this one… and need to finish off some work… but one point I want to ask… you consider the use of public streets a subsidy? We are talking the First Amendment here… Freedom of Assembly. If a private organization wants to have a protest, or parade, in a peaceful manner, you would deny them that right?
There is nothing stop a gay parade, or a parade in support of reinstating the Pledge in Schools, it is an equal and comparable playing field.
There is nothing stopping anyone in our society from sending their kids to a private school, which better reflects their religious values. Obviously this is a costly alternative, but our society should not be in the business of subsidizing religious education.
[/quote]
I would not deny them that right. However, children are prevented from praying in groups at school. Yet even now there are high schools with gay clubs that pass out flyers about gay marriage, pushing their beliefs on people who don’t support it. If a Christian or Jewish or even Muslim student were to do that with their religious pamphlets, it would be stopped in a hearbeat.
There is a double standard. You are just too stubborn to admit it.
Tolerance only goes one way in this country.
Jesus teaches us to hate the sin, but love the sinner.
So, Spiff & Ron are gay men then?Jesus teaches us to hate the sin, but love the sinner.
Hulk - Exactly. I don’t hate gay people. I said they creep me out and I don’t want my kids hanging around people with that lifestyle. I didn’t say that they weren’t allowed to live the life they want to, I just don’t want to have to be subjected to it all the time.
Wind - The OT and NT are drastically different. For one good reason: Jesus. The message completely changes after his life and, most specifically, death and resurrection. I'm guessing lunch when you're in my area the next time will have some interesting conversation. mlgone - Extra-Biblical historians have proven that the dates and cultural events recorded in the Bible are factual. I understand that an argument could be made that things like Noah's Ark, the Ten Commandment Scrolls, and other Biblical artifacts would be wonderful to unearth and have on display as absolute proof that they existed. However, when looked at from a scientific, geological, and historical context, the Bible is incredibly accurate. Before you dismiss is as complete fiction, you really should do some research to see if there is any factual evidence to prove that it is indeed a work of fiction or not.[quote=Spaceman Spiff]
Wind - The OT and NT are drastically different. For one good reason: Jesus. The message completely changes after his life and, most specifically, death and resurrection. I'm guessing lunch when you're in my area the next time will have some interesting conversation. [/quote] Wasn't bashing buddy. Just explaining to Ron, that all the versions are different. He didn't agree and I can promise you, that the last thing i want to talk about at any luncheon, is religion.Fair enough. We’ll keep it to politics, beer, and football. Well, I can at least have an intelligent conversation about one of those things.
Spiff, what is a “gay lifestyle”?
I know what it means to be gay. I don't know what it means to have a "gay lifestyle". What are you going to do if one of your kids is gay? Is he going to be raised in an environment in which he won't be able to tell his dad that he's gay?[quote=mlgone][quote=anonymous]Spiff, what is a “gay lifestyle”?
I know what it means to be gay. I don't know what it means to have a "gay lifestyle". What are you going to do if one of your kids is gay? Is he going to be raised in an environment in which he won't be able to tell his dad that he's gay?[/quote] He will be exercised[/quote] Pushups? Running laps?[quote=mlgone][quote=anonymous]Spiff, what is a “gay lifestyle”?
I know what it means to be gay. I don't know what it means to have a "gay lifestyle". What are you going to do if one of your kids is gay? Is he going to be raised in an environment in which he won't be able to tell his dad that he's gay?[/quote] He will be exercised[/quote] There's an idea. We can run, lift weights, swim, and bike until he's straight.Spiff, you seem to have trouble answering any direct questions on this issue. Is there a reason for that?
He can meet other straight guys at the gym as well.
[quote=anonymous]Spiff, what is a “gay lifestyle”?
I know what it means to be gay. I don't know what it means to have a "gay lifestyle". What are you going to do if one of your kids is gay? Is he going to be raised in an environment in which he won't be able to tell his dad that he's gay?[/quote] I realize that most gay people lead relatively normal lives, just like I do. Our routine differs in what we choose to do in our free time. I spend a lot of time hanging out with other Christians. I would assume that many gay people choose to spend their time with other gay people. I would assume that, like in my Christian circles, there is a lot of time and discussion devoted to what it means to be gay, how you are to live your life, and how your position in the world will be affected by changes in the political landscape. Of course there are the more vocal gay people that we are all aware of. The ones who will march down the street on gay pride day or head to Disney for their annual celebration of diversity. If one of my kids is gay - it means that I haven't done my job as a parent. At least that's how I would feel. I would guess that yes, he would be a little afraid of telling me that he's gay. He'd better hope his Grandfather is dead. That wouldn't be a conversation I'd enjoy participating in. As strong as you think I come across here, my dad would be ten times as worse. He's the kind of guy who won't shop somewhere because of their "pro-gay" agenda. In my mind right now, I would love them and treat them as I always have. That's what unconditional love is all about. It doesn't mean that I have to approve of their behavior and choices. This is exactly the picture God gives to us. He doesn't always approve of the choices we make, but He promises us His love anyway. I would hope that as a father, I could live up to that kind of example.I'm trying to work and do this at the same time. Cut me some slack. I don't have any problem at all answering direct questions.Spiff, you seem to have trouble answering any direct questions on this issue. Is there a reason for that?
What is this picture?
MLGone you have issues.
Spiff, as a parent, what is it that you are going to do that will cause your child to be sexually attracted to someone of the opposite sex?
Let me make a suggestion to you. Talk to someone who is gay. Ask them if there is something that their parents could have done differently that would have caused them to be straight instead. As a parent, I would love it if there was a way to make sure that my kids turned out to be straight.Good post Anon.
I have been conducting an "observation" over the last 12 or so years. I have a sister who has 5 sons. All of them are probably within 8 years of eachother. When they were younger, they visited my parents for a week. I came over and used the restroom where I found their toothbrushes all in a line. If I remember correctly the toothbrushes were kids' ones with different themes: there were 2 jet airplanes, 1 tank, a race car, and a pink telephone. The one nephew that had the pink telephone I swear is gay - even though he is still young (I believe middle school by now). Ever since he was really young, he always struck me as that way. One Christmas, I bought the boys gifts. While the brothers were all playing with their tanks, this particular nephew was in the other room with the girls doing Karoke. Choice? I think not. In a couple of years, when he comes out of the closet, I'll let you know.[quote=Primo] Just as there is nothing preventing a parade on private property. Streets are publically funded.
[/quote]
Too tired to continue this one… and need to finish off some work… but one point I want to ask… you consider the use of public streets a subsidy? We are talking the First Amendment here… Freedom of Assembly. If a private organization wants to have a protest, or parade, in a peaceful manner, you would deny them that right? You have completely missed the point. I consider a public street and a public school public places. It doesn’t cost the school one dime to allow the Pledge (unless you count the lawsuits). I think this falls more directly under Freedom of Speech in my analogy. I don’t want to deny either group, however one group is denied. They happen to be the majority. If you denied the other group, lawsuits would be filed and won.
There is nothing stop a gay parade, or a parade in support of reinstating the Pledge in Schools, it is an equal and comparable playing field.
There is nothing stopping anyone in our society from sending their kids to a private school, which better reflects their religious values. Obviously this is a costly alternative, but our society should not be in the business of subsidizing religious education.
Spiff-
Your posts regarding your feelings regarding people who think differently than you tells me one thing; EDJ made the right hire. And if your definition of being Christian is that you can't or won't accept other peoples behaviors, you shouldn't accept the RL position on either coast. What do you do when an FA introduces his or her partner at the next trip...walk over to the other side of the room. If a gay prospect comes to you do you run them over to the next FA who isn't as bigoted as you? I wouldn't want my kid to be gay? Well Spiff, I wouldn't want my kid to live in a world where they would be judged not for the content of their character but their preference in the bedroom. Dude you need to review your perfect life and stop being so damn critical. Keep your feelings to yourself. You should repeat your tagline ten times before you post. There may not be any intelligence between your ears...Calvin is definitely twisting right now.Here is a thought on gays and evolution:
If homosexuality is genetic, why is that gene still expressed? Homosexuals can’t procreate. The gene would have died out.
Which is correct, homosexuality being genetic, or evolution?
Also, if you are going to argue genetic mutation, what is the reason for a gay mutation?
Btw - I am genuinely asking, not mocking anybody or taking a position. Probably should have posted it in the lounge
Gays are not sterile. Someone brought up the point earlier that gay men specifically may marry and have kids early in life (to fit in or various other reasons), then come out later in life. My father in law did exactly that. I really have no idea what causes it, I just have a strong feeling that it is not a choice. I don't say I know for sure, because I'm not gay. Regarding genetic mutation, you are starting on the faulty premise that genetic mutation is done for a reason. Evolution is just a series of completely random mutuations. The ones that benefit the species usually stick. Here is an example. The almond. The wild almond contains cyanide, enough to kill you if you eat a handful of them. How exactly did we domestic them? Every so often a gene presents itself that creates cyanide-free almonds - a genetic mutation from long ago. These tastey almonds are usually eaten up by wildlife, because they don't taste bitter - so they didn't thrive until humans started cultivating them. What is the biological purpose of non-poisonous almonds? Absolutely nothing. Lots of domesticated foods are results of genetic mutations that did little to actually benefit the plant: corn, and peas are a couple more.Here is a thought on gays and evolution:
If homosexuality is genetic, why is that gene still expressed? Homosexuals can’t procreate. The gene would have died out.
Which is correct, homosexuality being genetic, or evolution?
Also, if you are going to argue genetic mutation, what is the reason for a gay mutation?
Btw - I am genuinely asking, not mocking anybody or taking a position. Probably should have posted it in the lounge
[quote=Wet_Blanket]
Lots of domesticated foods are results of genetic mutations that did little to actually benefit the plant: corn, and peas are a couple more.[/quote]
Just FYI. This is completely true. A true almond, will kill you within minutes. Another plant that has the same mutation is the Yam. It in it’s true form is poisonous.
I wouldn’t, however, say that EVERY mutation is TOTALLY random. Alot of mutation’s happen, as a survival tool. For example: Bat’s as well as other cave dwelling animals, that have eyes, but lose those functions because it isn’t useful anymore and their other senses develop 10 fold. Flying fish developed fins which act as wings when they leap out of the water for up to 45 seconds, to escape predators. There are many other examples, but it’s not totally random. As the animals find uses for different things, mutations occur. Just as if we were to start walking on our hands, more than likely our arms would become huge, our joints would mutate and we would look much different. Sometimes mutations are caused by the environment, and the actions over time of an animal. Anyway, i pretty much agree. I just don’t think EVERY mutation is random.
[quote=Ronnie Dobbs] [quote=Wet_Blanket]
Lots of domesticated foods are results of genetic mutations that did little to actually benefit the plant: corn, and peas are a couple more.[/quote]
Just FYI. This is completely true. A true almond, will kill you within minutes. Another plant that has the same mutation is the Yam. It in it's true form is poisonous.
I wouldn't, however, say that EVERY mutation is TOTALLY random. Alot of mutation's happen, as a survival tool. For example: Bat's as well as other cave dwelling animals, that have eyes, but lose those functions because it isn't useful anymore and their other senses develop 10 fold. Flying fish developed fins which act as wings when they leap out of the water for up to 45 seconds, to escape predators. There are many other examples, but it's not totally random. As the animals find uses for different things, mutations occur. Just as if we were to start walking on our hands, more than likely our arms would become huge, our joints would mutate and we would look much different. Sometimes mutations are caused by the environment, and the actions over time of an animal. Anyway, i pretty much agree. I just don't think EVERY mutation is random.[/quote] If you are a true believer in evolution, you would say it is completely random (at least that was the way it was when I was in college) - it is inevitable that the random mutations that benefit the animal will be the ones to stick / it is inevitable that limbs that have no use disappear over time. If you are religious, you would say that it happens with purpose (if you acknowledge evolution at all) - ie. intelligent design, evolution happens in spurts and at the direction of the Maker. Moving on, I guess that the arguement concerning Choice v. Nature boils down to a philosophical question concerning religion. If you believe in God, and God created everything with purpose, then why did he create people who are gay? I see that it is easier to say it was a choice and gay people are acting on God's gift of free will, but I also believe that is doing a diservice to one's relationship with God.
] If you believe in God, and God created everything with purpose, then why did he create people who are gay? I see that it is easier to say it was a choice and gay people are acting on God’s gift of free will, but I also believe that is doing a diservice to one’s relationship with God.
I'm not religious, but......
Leviticus 20:13
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."
Doesn't sound like God forgives or tolerates gays either lol......
Gays are not sterile. Someone brought up the point earlier that gay men specifically may marry and have kids early in life (to fit in or various other reasons), then come out later in life. My father in law did exactly that. I really have no idea what causes it, I just have a strong feeling that it is not a choice. I don't say I know for sure, because I'm not gay. Regarding genetic mutation, you are starting on the faulty premise that genetic mutation is done for a reason. Evolution is just a series of completely random mutuations. The ones that benefit the species usually stick. Here is an example. The almond. The wild almond contains cyanide, enough to kill you if you eat a handful of them. How exactly did we domestic them? Every so often a gene presents itself that creates cyanide-free almonds - a genetic mutation from long ago. These tastey almonds are usually eaten up by wildlife, because they don't taste bitter - so they didn't thrive until humans started cultivating them. What is the biological purpose of non-poisonous almonds? Absolutely nothing. Lots of domesticated foods are results of genetic mutations that did little to actually benefit the plant: corn, and peas are a couple more.[/quote][quote=Moraen]Here is a thought on gays and evolution:
If homosexuality is genetic, why is that gene still expressed? Homosexuals can’t procreate. The gene would have died out.
Which is correct, homosexuality being genetic, or evolution?
Also, if you are going to argue genetic mutation, what is the reason for a gay mutation?
Btw - I am genuinely asking, not mocking anybody or taking a position. Probably should have posted it in the lounge
The whole premise of natural selection is predicated upon need. Giraffes come to mind. We are supposedly biologically programmed (I believe this) to continue our species.
Homesexuals can't procreate. When your father-in-law had children, he committed (Hah!) a heterosexual act. He is NOW a homosexual. Now, his sexual actions will not produce children.
The reason almonds have cyanide in them is that they evolved from peaches. Peach pits have trace amounts of cyanide in them. Grind enough of them up, and you can kill yourself.
However, almonds were easy to cultivate even 4,000 years ago.
As for why? My guess is you would have to map the genome to determine that. One possible theory is that the cyanide contained in almonds can be used to erode certain metals that were found in their original mountain habitat. This would allow the almond trees roots to gain footholds in the mountains.
When the almonds were removed to more fertile areas, the almond no longer had need to use cyanide in order to root. In fact, depending on the richness of the soil, the cyanide could in fact hurt it's chances of taking root. Thus, the cyanide is no longer needed and possibly would be bred out.
[quote=Wet_Blanket] ] If you believe in God, and God created everything with purpose, then why did he create people who are gay? I see that it is easier to say it was a choice and gay people are acting on God’s gift of free will, but I also believe that is doing a diservice to one’s relationship with God.
I'm not religious, but......
Leviticus 20:13
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."
Doesn't sound like God forgives or tolerates gays either lol......[/quote]
Why do you lie to us? To yourself? Why do you tell us you'll never come back and you do? Why do you say you are done posting on this topic and post? Why do you tell us you are straight and you "experimented" with boys?
Finally, why is your YEARS of experience dealing with children not on your broker check report? Hopefully you are not basing your opinions on a three month, 4 hour a week internship during a semester.
And I thought this was a registered rep. forum.
[quote=Ronnie Dobbs] [quote=Wet_Blanket] ] If you believe in God, and God created everything with purpose, then why did he create people who are gay? I see that it is easier to say it was a choice and gay people are acting on God’s gift of free will, but I also believe that is doing a diservice to one’s relationship with God.
[/quote]I'm not religious, but......
Leviticus 20:13
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."
Doesn't sound like God forgives or tolerates gays either lol......[/quote] I'm Catholic, but not that religious - however the bible does has its limitations - mainly being that it was written by man, and further edited by man. If you read the bible from begining to end, you will witness a growth in philosophical thought. Someone before in this thread pointed out the differences between the Old and New Testaments, but the difference is largely caused by the development of thought and philosophy. One of the biggest differences is in the Old Testament, one main lesson was "an eye for an eye." The target audience of the Old Testament (and creators) where the Hebrews, a people who did not know justice, only retribution. Face forward a couple thousands of years, and you get "turn the other cheek," which is surely an advancement in philosophy. So basically, we are limited by what we can comprehend (you don't have to be religious to agree with that).
Thanks. She’s in my Top 5.
Gays are not sterile. Someone brought up the point earlier that gay men specifically may marry and have kids early in life (to fit in or various other reasons), then come out later in life. My father in law did exactly that. I really have no idea what causes it, I just have a strong feeling that it is not a choice. I don't say I know for sure, because I'm not gay. Regarding genetic mutation, you are starting on the faulty premise that genetic mutation is done for a reason. Evolution is just a series of completely random mutuations. The ones that benefit the species usually stick. Here is an example. The almond. The wild almond contains cyanide, enough to kill you if you eat a handful of them. How exactly did we domestic them? Every so often a gene presents itself that creates cyanide-free almonds - a genetic mutation from long ago. These tastey almonds are usually eaten up by wildlife, because they don't taste bitter - so they didn't thrive until humans started cultivating them. What is the biological purpose of non-poisonous almonds? Absolutely nothing. Lots of domesticated foods are results of genetic mutations that did little to actually benefit the plant: corn, and peas are a couple more.[/quote][quote=Wet_Blanket][quote=Moraen]Here is a thought on gays and evolution:
If homosexuality is genetic, why is that gene still expressed? Homosexuals can’t procreate. The gene would have died out.
Which is correct, homosexuality being genetic, or evolution?
Also, if you are going to argue genetic mutation, what is the reason for a gay mutation?
Btw - I am genuinely asking, not mocking anybody or taking a position. Probably should have posted it in the lounge
The whole premise of natural selection is predicated upon need. Giraffes come to mind. We are supposedly biologically programmed (I believe this) to continue our species.
Homesexuals can't procreate. When your father-in-law had children, he committed (Hah!) a heterosexual act. He is NOW a homosexual. Now, his sexual actions will not produce children.
The reason almonds have cyanide in them is that they evolved from peaches. Peach pits have trace amounts of cyanide in them. Grind enough of them up, and you can kill yourself.
However, almonds were easy to cultivate even 4,000 years ago.
As for why? My guess is you would have to map the genome to determine that. One possible theory is that the cyanide contained in almonds can be used to erode certain metals that were found in their original mountain habitat. This would allow the almond trees roots to gain footholds in the mountains.
When the almonds were removed to more fertile areas, the almond no longer had need to use cyanide in order to root. In fact, depending on the richness of the soil, the cyanide could in fact hurt it's chances of taking root. Thus, the cyanide is no longer needed and possibly would be bred out.
[/quote] If you ask him, he'll say he was gay when he got married. Choose marriage and family because it was the "right thing to do" in his blue collar neighborhood. He is a little unbalanced though, he thinks everyone is secretly gay. The day I married his daughter, he took me aside and told me to do the "father thing" for about 15 years then I can "come out" and enjoy my life. Haha. Interesting theory on the almond. I may dig deeper into that. I guess the only obvious problem I have with it is that the cyanid would be eating away at the rocks under an already taken-root tree, so why erode it more? Unless almond trees have a tendancy to throw the almonds around the area.
[quote=Wet_Blanket]Unless almond trees have a tendancy to throw the almonds around the area.[/quote]
I believe this is the case.
Okay, now it has peaked my interest. If your theory is true, then that’s impressive.
[quote=Wet_Blanket]Okay, now it has peaked my interest. If your theory is true, then that’s impressive.[/quote]
Question: What does your tagline mean? Nice avatar by the way.
It's a quote from a song by a Swedish Viking Rock Band: "It's a Party in Valhalla!" It was more appropriate when I had a Viking in my avatar, not a dancing Korean girl.[quote=Wet_Blanket]Okay, now it has peaked my interest. If your theory is true, then that’s impressive.[/quote]
Question: What does your tagline mean? Nice avatar by the way.
Then cool tagline.
It’s a great song. I used to have it on vinyl, but haven’t been able to find it anywhere (the song or the record).
[quote=Wet_Blanket] ] If you believe in God, and God created everything with purpose, then why did he
...[/quote] This question typically comes from those that believe they can rationalize and intellectualize God and that's a false path. I do believe there is a purpose, He made it, and I am helping to fulfill it. I don't need to know why; I need to come to Him with an open heart. I don't have a conflict in my relationship with Jesus Christ and my understanding of homosexuals. [quote=Ronnie Dobbs]"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."
....[/quote] Ronnie - I think it's great you have read at least this far into the Bible, and encourage you to read to understand the word. If you want to understand Leviticus, then change the manner in which you eat, because it is clearly laid out what is clean and not. Change the manner in which you address those with illnesses, because it is clearly laid out. Be careful not to wear wool/poly blends, for these are hybrids and unclean. Be wary of any genetically altered foods (which, by the way, would be nearly all foods at this time). Leviticus is important because he states the need to cleanse yourself of those things and to bring yourself to God in a pure state. Few Christians today care whether or not he binds himself to the eating habits as laid out in Leviticus. Could you imagine a Christian church that would prevent a blind man from bringing offerings to the alter because he was unpure? This is Leviticus. If ... as many have stated here ... these are all sins, and all sins are equal ... then the very clothing on Spaceman's back condemn him in the eyes of the Lord. But I do believe you can understand and adhere to the spirit of the Leviticus and the Bible, by allowing God to reveal himself to you. There is a forest, and there are trees. Not that I think you will Ronnie, but I suggest you read the Bible a bit more and take some understanding away from it. God gave us the capacity to think, and in your case I honestly think he was more generous than for many. Have a prosperous and faithful New Year.
That's not dancing!gottcha
Either A). You didn't even look at it, or B). You can't comprehend it well. ODECC stands for Oklahoma Diagnostics and Evaluation Center for Children. It's a state program to evaluate state custody children and whether or not they are safe to enter back into the environment, whether they need to be kept in foster care, put in a group home, juvenile center, rehab, psych ward, or given back to their parents. The children are evaluated, logs are kept on their behavior, medications are administered for whatever medications they require, and after 20 days a decision is made on whether or not they are fit to be put back into society. So yes, working there for years and having a degree in psych, gives me the right to have a discussion on the topic. So stop with the BS already...
Finally, why is your YEARS of experience dealing with children not on your broker check report? Hopefully you are not basing your opinions on a three month, 4 hour a week internship during a semester.
Either A). You didn't even look at it, or B). You can't comprehend it well. ODECC stands for Oklahoma Diagnostics and Evaluation Center for Children. It's a state program to evaluate state custody children and whether or not they are safe to enter back into the environment, whether they need to be kept in foster care, put in a group home, juvenile center, rehab, psych ward, or given back to their parents. The children are evaluated, logs are kept on their behavior, medications are administered for whatever medications they require, and after 20 days a decision is made on whether or not they are fit to be put back into society. So yes, working there for years and having a degree in psych, gives me the right to have a discussion on the topic. So stop with the BS already...[/quote] Jones has a program like that. We call it Eval/Grad.[quote=DD]
Finally, why is your YEARS of experience dealing with children not on your broker check report? Hopefully you are not basing your opinions on a three month, 4 hour a week internship during a semester.
[quote=BigCheese]Spiff-
Your posts regarding your feelings regarding people who think differently than you tells me one thing; EDJ made the right hire. And if your definition of being Christian is that you can't or won't accept other peoples behaviors, you shouldn't accept the RL position on either coast. What do you do when an FA introduces his or her partner at the next trip...walk over to the other side of the room. If a gay prospect comes to you do you run them over to the next FA who isn't as bigoted as you? I wouldn't want my kid to be gay? Well Spiff, I wouldn't want my kid to live in a world where they would be judged not for the content of their character but their preference in the bedroom. Dude you need to review your perfect life and stop being so damn critical. Keep your feelings to yourself. You should repeat your tagline ten times before you post. There may not be any intelligence between your ears...Calvin is definitely twisting right now.[/quote] See, and we were having a civil discussion about something not brokerage related and you go and pull EDJ back into it. Dude, you've got issues. (changing to sarcasm so people dont' get their panties in a wad) I think you might be a Jones bigot. Was I up for an RL position on the east coast? I must have missed that memo. Just FYI we have gay people here in the midwest also. I have to tell you that when EDJ decided that they were going to allow same sex partners into the benefits arena and on Div Trips, I almost left the company. Some of you left because of payout, revenue sharing, or how a situation was handled, I almost left because of that. I actually called my dad and talked about it with him. He told me that I was going to be hard pressed to find another company that didn't have those same rules. His recommendation was to stay put, but to make sure I at least spoke up about it if I had the opportunity. If an FA with his same sex partner shows up on a Div Trip and introduces himself, then I'll shake his hand, shake his partners hand, and go on my way. It's not like I'm acting like a 7 year old boy who just had a girl with cooties touch him. I'd act the same way if someone told me they were a democrat. The beauty of this country is that you have the right to your opinion, even if I think it's wrong. I don't know that I've defined what it means to me to be a Christian. I can if you'd like, but I don't know that anyone else really wants me to preach to them. Not that I'm not willing and able, mind you. I will tell you it has much more to do with my relationship with God than with what I think of someone else's choices in life. I have enough trouble trying to live my own life to a higher standard. Why do I have to keep my feelings to myself, but it's OK to for you to call me a bigot? Don't you see the screaming hypocrisy in that statement? You can relax with the worrying about your kids being judged by their choices in the bedreeom rather than their character. Good thing about the world today is that you can pretty much do whatever you feel like and nobody's going to say anything about it. They're all afraid that you'll sue them for discrimination.[quote=Spaceman Spiff] [quote=BigCheese]Spiff-
Your posts regarding your feelings regarding people who think differently than you tells me one thing; EDJ made the right hire.
And if your definition of being Christian is that you can’t or won’t accept other peoples behaviors, you shouldn’t accept the RL position on either coast. What do you do when an FA introduces his or her partner at the next trip…walk over to the other side of the room.
If a gay prospect comes to you do you run them over to the next FA who isn’t as bigoted as you? I wouldn’t want my kid to be gay? Well Spiff, I wouldn’t want my kid to live in a world where they would be judged not for the content of their character but their preference in the bedroom.
Dude you need to review your perfect life and stop being so damn critical. Keep your feelings to yourself. You should repeat your tagline ten times before you post. There may not be any intelligence between your ears…Calvin is definitely twisting right now.[/quote]
See, and we were having a civil discussion about something not brokerage related and you go and pull EDJ back into it. Dude, you’ve got issues. (changing to sarcasm so people dont’ get their panties in a wad) I think you might be a Jones bigot.
Was I up for an RL position on the east coast? I must have missed that memo. Just FYI we have gay people here in the midwest also.
I have to tell you that when EDJ decided that they were going to allow same sex partners into the benefits arena and on Div Trips, I almost left the company. Some of you left because of payout, revenue sharing, or how a situation was handled, I almost left because of that. I actually called my dad and talked about it with him. He told me that I was going to be hard pressed to find another company that didn’t have those same rules. His recommendation was to stay put, but to make sure I at least spoke up about it if I had the opportunity.
If an FA with his same sex partner shows up on a Div Trip and introduces himself, then I’ll shake his hand, shake his partners hand, and go on my way. It’s not like I’m acting like a 7 year old boy who just had a girl with cooties touch him. I’d act the same way if someone told me they were a democrat. The beauty of this country is that you have the right to your opinion, even if I think it’s wrong.
I don’t know that I’ve defined what it means to me to be a Christian. I can if you’d like, but I don’t know that anyone else really wants me to preach to them. Not that I’m not willing and able, mind you. I will tell you it has much more to do with my relationship with God than with what I think of someone else’s choices in life. I have enough trouble trying to live my own life to a higher standard.
Why do I have to keep my feelings to myself, but it’s OK to for you to call me a bigot? Don’t you see the screaming hypocrisy in that statement?
You can relax with the worrying about your kids being judged by their choices in the bedreeom rather than their character. Good thing about the world today is that you can pretty much do whatever you feel like and nobody’s going to say anything about it. They’re all afraid that you’ll sue them for discrimination. [/quote]
Spiff, my firm doesn’t allow same sex partners.
Spiff, my firm doesn’t allow same sex partners.
as long as you understand, spiff, that many of us who consider ourselves VERY Christian also do not interpret the bible the same as you do. Which is fine; we can disagree on the “law” stuff and agree on the “grace” stuff. we will disagree on the “gay” stuff right up until we meet in heaven. (the original greek can be interpreted many ways; the word “homosexual” first appeared in the bible in 1946 about 100 years after the word was invented. It could be argued that Paul was referring to acts which would still be illegal today-- not referring to orientation. Point is: BOTH SIDES HAVE MERIT. WE MOVE ON)
I don't disagree with you. That's the reason we have so many different denominations today. The Lutherans read certain passages one way, Methodists another, and Baptists another. You've got to find one that you believe to be true.
Paul spoke most about sexual immorality. In the NIV he only uses the word homosexual in 1 Cor. However, the verse in Lev that Wind posted earlier is really difficult to sugar coat or rationalize away the obvious meaning. Paul knew that most of the people he was writing to knew well the passages like that one. If he knew that they knew what sexually immoral actually meant he really didn't need to spell out what he was talking about. Unless, like in 1 Cor, he wanted to make a specific point. I realize I'm not going to change any minds on this one. It was never my intent to do so. My original comment, some 25 pages ago, was intended as a bit of humor. Evidently I touched a nerve.This thread is so gay.
I know Democrats that agree with Spiff on the bible, and I know Repblcns that agree with me on this particular point. it is not so easy.
(PS Paul NEVER used the word homosexual; he wrote in Greek! Therein lies the problem....)And the use of the word in Lev is also the same problem…different language, culture, audience, etc. MUCH ROOM for varied interpretations; no way to be CERTAIN except strictly as a matter of faith not fact. Therefore to disagree is fine; to condemn another for a different interpretation is …well I better stop. Live and let live.
All very well put newnew
[quote=newnew]I know Democrats that agree with Spiff on the bible, and I know Repblcns that agree with me on this particular point. it is not so easy.
(PS Paul NEVER used the word homosexual; he wrote in Greek! Therein lies the problem....)[/quote]The word "abortion" is not in the bible. ...neither is Ipod.
All knowing God; why didn't he know about the Ipod?
or dinosaurs or Noth American Indians, or…Brett Farve
I'll buy you one.I need a beer.
I liked Volt. His threads were centered around business. Not garbage like this.
I agree with ML. The sad thing is that Spiff (who claims I have issues) thinks that this forum is his soapbox for his beliefs.I wonder if you could direct us to a Christian fourm so we could start spreading our opinions about our business.
Incidentally...you did cause me to pause and think about your comments about EDJ and Christian beliefs. I like you had challenges with Jones on some of their positions. I didn't really care about the gay thing at all (in fact I thought Jones was opening themselves to another lawsuit if they didn't allow non-married heterosexual couples the same opportunity to go on trips as homosexual couples). I doubt they ever expected to have that particular issue come up, but I saw the disdain it caused with FA's when clear discrimination occured. And it did. They have tried to fix it, but most non-married FA's at the time just took the cash and suppressed their feelings. Only a few that I knew of at the time bothered to go to Weddle to PROVE their relationship (which was the process several years ago...I hope that has changed!). Being a non-Christian, I definitely saw in most meetings references from many reps, RL's, and partners the mention of how important their Christian religion was to them and the reference by many how family was so important (as if it wasn't for the rest of us). In fact the RL would often talk about his Bible study group (failed to mention ever his Poker group) and one rep who was his goodknight joined his church (and then took over a 100M book) not too long after. The religious nepotisim then was rampant. Maybe that's changed although I would lay odds it hasn't. So...Mr. Religous Nutjob (your words not mine) keep your religious opinions to yourself and please if you feel the need to spout your beliefs find another appropriate forum.So, now Jones shows nepotism based on religion? You’re amazing.
When have you ever seen another post where I got on my soapbox in regards to my beliefs? So, I'm not free to spout my religious beliefs? I can say anything I like as long as it doesn't ruffle your non-christian feathers? Is that pretty much how it goes? Some folks might say that's censorship and an attempt to stifle my freedom of speech. I've not told anyone here how they should believe. I have shared how I believe. If you think I was preaching to anyone, then you are misreading my statements. So, am I free to talk about football, politics, beer, girls, and post modernism or are there other topics that I should avoid? I'd hate to step on any more of your, evidently tender, toes. ml - just so you know I read your article, I don't agree with the Ugandan bill on killing homosexuals. That's just stupid.Nutjob-
This is a registered rep forum or have you forgotten. Tell us something about business. That's what these forums are for. Take your opinions about your religion and find the appropriate place to discuss them. This isn't it.Then we shouldn’t be talking about football, beer, cars, women/men, vacation destinations, or politics either. All of those are frequent topics on this forum and not registered representative related.
Nobody forced you to particpate in this conversation. So, if you don't want to talk about, or if it offends you, just don't click on the thread anymore.[quote=BigCheese]Nutjob-
This is a registered rep forum or have you forgotten. Tell us something about business. That's what these forums are for. Take your opinions about your religion and find the appropriate place to discuss them. This isn't it. [/quote]I beg to differ. This forum is for business and gay jokes. Haven't you read any of the other threads?
[quote=SometimesNowhere]
[quote=BigCheese]Nutjob-
This is a registered rep forum or have you forgotten. Tell us something about business. That's what these forums are for. Take your opinions about your religion and find the appropriate place to discuss them. This isn't it. [/quote]I beg to differ. This forum is for business and gay jokes. Haven't you read any of the other threads?
[/quote]
Sometimes - I want to hang out with you. Probably would be the best ab workout of my life.
Sorry, but that came out a little gay…
[quote=Moraen] [quote=SometimesNowhere] [quote=BigCheese]Nutjob-
This is a registered rep forum or have you forgotten. Tell us something about business. That's what these forums are for. Take your opinions about your religion and find the appropriate place to discuss them. This isn't it. [/quote]I beg to differ. This forum is for business and gay jokes. Haven't you read any of the other threads?
[/quote]
Sometimes - I want to hang out with you. Probably would be the best ab workout of my life.
[/quote] If you bend over to far, you might tear an ab.
And we’re back to gay jokes.
No need to apologize for speaking the truth, I suppose it did sound a little gay.
Here: Sometimes, I’d like to hang out with you. I would likely laugh so hard, I would get the best ab workout of my life.
Windy - did you mean to say: If you bend over to fart, you might tear an ab?
No sir, my apologies. "If you bend over too far, you might tear an ab.
[quote=Ronnie Dobbs]No sir, my apologies. "If you bend over too far, you might tear an ab.[/quote]
No need to apologize. We all know that grammar is not your strong suit. Pity. All of that talent and can’t form correct sentences.
It’s OK. He works for Jones. They don’t let us form complete sentences on our own anyway. Everything has to run through compliance.
I find it funny that a thread titled “What happened to Voltmoie” has turned into a discussion about gay issues and very ironic that Volt’s gay slurs led to his staying away.
[quote=Spaceman Spiff] It’s OK. He works for Jones. They don’t let us form complete sentences on our own anyway. Everything has to run through compliance. [/quote]
Try to explain to a client why we don’t have Word or Notepad on your PC. They look at us like we’re nuts.
Seriously? I once hung out with a Compliance guy from Jones at a conference in Chicago - pretty cool guy. Ofcourse we traded cracks on eachother's firms. He wasn't a run of the mill compliance muckity muck. I think he was a little further up there on the corporate ladder than the guys you normally complain about. Anyways, from his descriptions of the Jones Compliance Machine, only one word came to mind: Clusterf***. Or is that two misspelled? What an operation.
[quote=Spaceman Spiff] It’s OK. He works for Jones. They don’t let us form complete sentences on our own anyway. Everything has to run through compliance. [/quote]
Try to explain to a client why we don’t have Word or Notepad on your PC. They look at us like we’re nuts.
Sorry, ml, your t-shirt that you lovingly sent me got blocked by compliance. Seriously. I even tried to click on the hyperlink that shows up instead of your pic. Got the screen that says that I put my office on someone’s watch list today. Someone want to tell me what it is?
Regardless, I appreciate your thoughfulness. What does your post right before the t-shirt one mean?It is some guys sitting around a poker table. Jesus is one of them. Underneath the picture it says, “Ante, Christ”
If you have a series 7 and 63 and live in NYC then we need to talk. I'm gonna add to my desk. (yes I know this is vague.. I can't go into too much detail on a forum for compliance reasons) We are one of the fastest growing firms in the country with multiple offices around the world. Please pass this around to anyone you know who qualifies. email resumes to [email protected]
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