ML or EDJ

Take Merrill.  Win or lose you’ll have more opportunity down the road.

[quote=FreedomLvr]Take Merrill.  Win or lose you'll have more opportunity down the road.[/quote]

I'm definitely leaning toward Mother Merrill (as I see referenced on this site). I still have a lot to learn and am intimidated by the wealth of knowledge on this board. I'm catching on to the terms VA, FA, MM, etc., etc. (I'm smart enough to know that I know nothing) But I've seen the term "haircut," and don't know what it means. I'm guessing that it means skimming from your payout. But, I could be completely off base.

Having seen both first hand, I would take Ed J. That's because I more of a low-key golfer.

Both situations require hard work. Some people like to compete against others, some like to compete against themselves.

Ed is a first class outfit, so is Merrill. The only important thing is to make money ethically, not be associated with a hot shot firm. Do you want to sit in a bull pen and enjoy friendly telephone competition with your hungry competitors? Would you rather walk the small industrial parks and neighborhoods, inviting prospects to lunch and golf? Ed will give you a lot of support, but you will still have to compete against yourself - vigourously.

Find out as much as you can about the behavioural lifestyle of each postion, and choose from the heart.

Looking at my gross production this year, I find it hard to believe that Merrill would better prepare you for the industry, although I did complete their training program over 20 years ago.

Thank you for your insight TenthTee! It’s refreshing to read a post about EDJ that isn’t bashing the firm. From my outsider’s perspective, they seem very respectable.

Another idea: go learn the basics of the biz at EJ and blow them and your

new clients away with your ambition and people-person-ness. You can

always graduate to ML (or other more “upscale” firms) later if you want or

need to, but you don’t want to go the other way. ML loves to hire people

who have clients and they don’t have to train–so does everyone else.

Take the ML offer. If, in fact, you don’t succeed there, EDJ will always hire

you.

"the firm minimum of $15MM in AUM is nearly unattainable in two years."

It's absolutely attainable with a confident attitude and a good name behind you.  A big part of success is believing.

"Find out as much as you can about the behavioral lifestyle of each postion, and choose from the heart."

I'll second that.  The firm that gives you the best chance is the firm that more closely matches your personality.

I came out of a CPA firm also and I think your chances are immediately increased because of your past experience and credentials.  The biggest hurdle a rookie faces is credibility with the public and you have a nice headstart over your rookie competitors.  Put your head down and work hard...I think you can succeed at either place.

CPA/JD is not by any stretch meaningless…you just have to be willing to get out and press the flesh and put that credential in front of good prospects.

Go with Merill if you’re willing to deal with the IBM White Shirt Blue Suit atmosphere, and as well understand that their bogeys are real hard to hit in the first two years.

On the other hand EdJ might be a little less oppressive, but if you succeed you will want to move on in 3-4 years to greener pastures…

Hope that helps…

[quote=Indyone]

“the firm minimum of $15MM in AUM is nearly unattainable in two years.”

It's absolutely attainable with a confident attitude and a good name behind you.  A big part of success is believing.[/quote]

This comes right out of "Death of a Salesman".

A big part of success is being realistic. A large portion of ML's sucess is hoovering the AUM gathered in by everyone who didn't pull in $15MM. I'm not saying its impossible, but the odds are very much against you.

Between EDJ and ML, I think I would look at other places as well.

Could anyone who is an EDJ'er here explain the LP/GP thing? If that works the way I think it does (you aquire LP units of EDJ), then in reality that would be the annuitization that you seek, since the cash distributions from the LP are passive income.

One of those two firms may be the right one for you.  It's really a personal decision.

However, I think that you are making a terrible mistake if you don't check out other firms as well.

The 2 year AUM hurdle at Merrill really forces you to become an asset gatherer instead of a financial advisor.   This isn't meant as a knock.  Rather, if you are going to Merrill or a similar firm, just make sure that gathering assets is what you want to be doing.

I run the POA program for our office at ML.  We graduated 9 people
in 2006, and we have seen less that 15% of our new-hires not make it
over the last 4 years.  We work hard, I basically take them
through the CFP tm modules along with every asset gathering and
propsect interviewing program out there, and we go out for dinner once
every 2 months to just chat.  It can be done, and they have some
fun dong it. 



Now these 9 are all setting on a fee based business generating about
$80,000/year in personal income after 2 years.  And the beauty of
it is the culture at ML breeds very large producers so they are just
getting started…

Rightway brings up a great point. 

1)If his numbers are honest, and we'll assume that they are, his branch of ML could be a great place to start.  Another branch could have an 85% failure rate.  The branch matters more than the company.  It is important, to increase your chance of success, to be around big producers.

You still must have the desire to, first and foremost, be an asset gatherer.

[quote=anonymous]

Rightway brings up a great point. 

1)If his numbers are honest, and we'll assume that they are, his branch of ML could be a great place to start.  Another branch could have an 85% failure rate.  The branch matters more than the company.  It is important, to increase your chance of success, to be around big producers.

You still must have the desire to, first and foremost, be an asset gatherer.

I’ve been through the ML POA, and I must tell you, it will make you a better advisor.  Being at ML does breed a sense of pride.  But is is a hard road, there is no doubt. 

Consider a firm such as AG Edwards, with virtually the same offerings, with less pressure, and a place where your background would be more unique and more appreciated within your office (and may lead to partnering).

Just my two cents.

Go-

Based on your comments, I think you may be more well suited for EDJ to

start out. Your comments about the culture that you did not like in

previous jobs leads me to believe that you might not like the wire culture.

If that is the case, EDJ may be better suited for you. And as others have

stated, you can always move down the road. But the hurdles will be lower

at EDJ early on - but the work is just as hard.



My background is in accounting and corporate finance, and I would say

that it has been a major advantage for me. I understand taxes, personal

finance, and the economy better than most without similar backgrounds,

and that comes through with clients. I’ve met some newbies that don’t

know the difference between an S-Corp and the Peace Corp when talking

to business owners - that’s where it helps. It gives people a greater

sense of security when you can talk about your impressive background,

as opposed to telling them you used to sell shoes (not that a shoe

salesman cannot do well - it just helps in terms of “image”).



Good luck with your decision. PM me if you have questions about EDJ.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I would question your desire to commit to this job. You've got a CPA and JD designation, both of which required a tremendous amount of focus, money, and dedication to achieve. Now, you want to do this job? Why would you throw away what you've achieved so far?

Maybe be a CPA and a lawyer and be licensed to sell securities (which rules out employment at any of the wirehouses), but at least you're building upon your past achievements.

Or with your credentials, (if I were you) I would only apply at "white shoe"-type investment firms that look for your type of qualifications-at a minimum. These "white shoe" firms cater to the ultra high-net-worth crowd.

Let's see, you work your arse-off and spend lots of money to become a CPA. Nah, that's no good. So, you work your arse-off and spend lots of money to get a law degree. Nah, that's no good. Do you see a pattern here?

Prediction, if you become a stockbroker: It's 4 months from now, it's 8:15PM, and you're getting slammed for the umpteenth time on cold calls. You haven't opened enough accounts or gathered enough AUM and office rumors are spreading about whether you'll make it. You look up at the wall that displays your framed CPA degree and law degree and you're wondering why the hell you're putting up with this cr*p.

Wow! Excellent posts! I can't believe NASD Newbie hasn't posted anything defamatory/pejorative yet.

I'm going to ask the ML Branch Manager what the attrition rate at his branch is for the POA program. If it's fairly low, 30% or less, I think I'll go with ML. I'm leaning towards ML anyway. I think the attrition rate will be indicative of the support this branch has for it's newbies.

Broker 24-- I liked that line about the S-corp and the Peace Corp. I really do like the business model of EDJ over ML, but if I go into this industry, it will be to make as much money as I can. I'm not sure if EDJ would agree with my limiting my clients to 100k and above.

Doberman-- You made some VERY good points! I can almost see your prediction in the future as well. It's hard for me to rest on my laurels. The fact is, I didn't finish in the top half of my law school (it was first tier but not top 50) and didn't make that much money as an attorney (60k). I didn't see potential for significant raises and I hated what I was doing (I'll never chase an ambulance).  In this industry, it seems that you are only limited by your ambition and persuasiveness (or lack thereof). I like the idea of virtually unlimited income. The short and long term goal setting, as I feel a great sense of accomplishment achieving those goals. I also like the idea of only working on a referral basis (well, for the most part) 10 years from now. For the record, I was in the Military too, and hated that as well. Yes, I see a pattern!

What is a "What Shoes" firm? Can you name one that I could look up?

“white shoes”  – My bad!

Go_Pios, I’m a fairly young guy who is a new new with EDJ. I just went

through all of the training and i’m basically only cheating myself right

now by wasting time on this website (i should be writing thank you

notes)… ANYWAYS… Getting to the point… I read the Jones bashing that

goes on and I understand the appeal and pride that goes with a

household name like ML.



Allow me to say this in favor of Jones though. I’ve put up with 6 years

prior to this job of military training, which I hated as well (supposedly the

best training in the world bla bla bla). After going through Jones training

the military pales in comparison. I can honestly say ED J has an

outstanding training program that would absolutely, beyond doubt,

prepare you for success in this industry.



If you want to be that outgoing self-described people person you may

want to reconsider. Talking on a phone for 10 hours a day as opposed to

walking around talking to people and trying to establish relationships

doesn’t sound like a fit to how you described yourself. ED J is more about

meeting people and establishing comfort with them so they cement

themselves with you and your office. ED J wants you to know about client

birthdays and how they and their spouse take their coffee. (Of course i’m

using those two details as an example to describe how Jones wants you to

build a comfortable business.)



The J.D. Power study which came out this year showed ED J clients, out of

all the big firms, have the lowest percentage of clients who leave for

another firm. That’s testament to what I’ve just said.



Of course I can’t speak for ML because I have almost zero knowledge of

their inner circles.



Also, keep in mind that while ED J preaches door knocking as the bread

and butter of building your business, who says you can’t blitz with

seminars and focus heavily on business owners? I’ve had moderate (at

best) success with door knocking. Majority of the battles i’ve won came

from phone calls to business owners where I swapped biz cards and

eventually trickled my magically delicious charm on them. You win

business by earning trust, confidence and you keep business by having

clients that like you on both a personal and professional business.

Someone may argue that but it’s what i’ve found as truth in my area.



In the beginning I don’t think i’d be choosy either of how much someone

had to invest, there’s usually more money that follows down the road

from first time nervous and testing clients.



Just ask yourself before any new prospecting campaign “Is the juice worth

the squeeze?” More than anything, time is money in this business.



Choose a firm that more closely resembles your personal style. Above

anything else it is crucial you understand exactly what you’ll be doing. It’s

"cool" when you tell Aunt Foofie and Uncle Elmer at family gatherings

what you do but being able to brag among colleagues about success

comes from an immense amount of effort and countless late nights.



Remember i’m a young broker in my twenties with just a smidge of

experience against some of the vets in here.



Just my $0.02 take it for what it’s worth!

Kudos to jbarnes for his/her reply.  As an ex-Joneser, I can state without a doubt that EDJ is the best place to START in this business.  Where is the best place to FINISH in this business?  Well, that’s something that you’ll have to decide for yourself.  For me, it’s INDY!!!

[quote=Go_Pios]"white shoes"  -- My bad![/quote]

The term "white shoes" is slang for an investment firm that caters to ultra-high net worth clients. An example of one such firm would be Goldman Sachs.

Again, I would try to find a position that incorporates everything you've learned and accomplished up to this point. Because you possess both a CPA and JD degree, that puts you in an enviable position, as far as, possessing skills that could benefit your clients. And the only clients that would truly benefit from your skill-set are ultra-high net worth clients. Therefore, I would advise you to apply at those firms that cater specifically to this type of client.

Good luck!

Wow! This has been a fantastic discussion.

In my opinion, EDJ and ML are two totally different animals. I can't imagine a ML office being located in a town with a population of less than 100,000, while I've see EDJ offices in towns of 2,000. The autonomy EDJ allows is what was so attractive to me. I took over an office (very beneficial) and have worked my own hours since day one. If I don't feel like going to the office on a Tuesday, I don't. I frequently use our "remote access" from home, and it is phenomenal.

I think it comes down to whether you want to run your own business in any town in the US, UK or Canada with unlimited earning potential, or work in an office in a medium-sized to large city with unlimited earning potential.

My field trainer is a limited partner and has been with EDJ for approximately 13 years. He consistently nets $300,000 per year in a town of fewer than 9,000 people. I don't know how much money would satisfy you, but I could live very comfortably on that kind of income!

I think the biggest surprise for most folks is that this is a sales job...plain and simple. Although you'll desperately want to be perceived as a financial advisor, you're going to be building trust and selling investments for many years before you'll do much advising. A lot of people get into this industry without realizing that their job is to sell, sell, sell--and they feel like an insurance or car salesman and decide this isn't for them.

Good luck with your decision; they're both great companies.

I suggest that you request to speak with at least two additional people at each of the firms.  One should be someone currently in the training program and the other should be someone recently graduated from the training program.  I did that and the insight to the firms that it provided was invaluable. I am partial to Merrill, but I do feel that the culture of the branch plays an equally important role than that of the company.

I’m a current POA trainee at Merrill Lynch and while I agree that the AUM requirements are challenging, I don’t see them as nearly impossible as others have stated. 

[quote=doberman]

[quote=Go_Pios]“white shoes”  – My bad![/quote]

The term "white shoes" is slang for an investment firm that caters to ultra-high net worth clients. An example of one such firm would be Goldman Sachs.

Again, I would try to find a position that incorporates everything you've learned and accomplished up to this point. Because you possess both a CPA and JD degree, that puts you in an enviable position, as far as, possessing skills that could benefit your clients. And the only clients that would truly benefit from your skill-set are ultra-high net worth clients. Therefore, I would advise you to apply at those firms that cater specifically to this type of client.

Good luck!

The more I think about it, the more I think you may well be suited as a

junior partner in and Indy firm (providing support to the partners). I am

not sure what your specialty is that you have developed from your CPA

and law experience, but if you could parlay that into a supporting

position in a small to mid-sized indy office, it would be a great way to

utilize your talents and break into the industry.

I wish I could say that I know the industry well! Truly, I know nothing about the industry, I don't know how to balance a portfolio. I really don't see what value I could add to any clientele at a private bank, or for that matter an INDY, other than the clients would see the diplomas on the wall.

I've read other threads on this forum, and other than having a vague idea what people are talking about, the discussion is largely over my head.

I think with just a few years of gathering assets, learning the business, and proving that I can bring in clients, I would be much better suited for private banking.  I just googled "private banking" and had never even heard of it. It does sound very interesting though.

I only wish the career path wasn't so defined for an accountant. While still in college, a decade ago, I was offered a position with Arthur Andersen and told that if I didn't accept it... It would be a stupid mistake.  While at AA, I hated it! 35k a year, while working 80-90 hours a week. I wish I had gone directly into financial services then, as opposed to law school.  I make friends easily, am trusted, and work my tail off.  In undergrad, I wish they would have informed us that there were other career options available. Instead, I drank the kool aid, put the blinders on, and just plowed forward...  Uggh!

You know...I just can't help but think you're in the perfect position right now. Are there two other professions in this country that provide a better opportunity for unlimited income than that of CPA or attorney? Both are highly respected fields--much more so than "stock broking"--and you don't have to go out a create a need...you just hang a shingle and get to work. And if a lawyer or CPA were to employ the EDJ method of marketing, they'd have people lined up outside their door waiting to do business with them. 

I'm friends with several CPAs and attorneys in my community, and though they work very hard, they seem to be very happy and financially secure. Actually, I'm about to begin studying for the LSAT, because my background is in law enforcement and I've always wanted to be a prosecutor... ...and then maybe move into the criminal defense side of things. (I spent many years working with the police officers I'd be defending against...and that should be a walk in the park to beat them. )

I think there is a reason you see so many CPA's and Attorney's in the brokerage industry.  "The grass is always greener on the other side!" My best friend tells me to hang a shingle every day, but, he doesn't understand how much I hate both occupations. I'm quite sure I could do quite well at both accounting or law, but is life really worth being miserable?

I do have a question. Has anyone started in this industry as an Indy?

I really would like to work for myself one day... and I'm starting to agree with whoever it was that said "Start with EDJ, then leave after 3-4 years and become Indy"  It's starting to make sense as I read more and more of these threads.

I think your friend may be right in the end.  It is much more difficult to build a business in this industry than the other two.  However, the veterans I see in this industry either make more money or work less hours, (40ish vs 60ish as a ballpark average from those I know) or both, than CPAs and Attorneys. 

I was also a CPA with one of the major firms, and have spent the last 2 plus yrs at Jones.  It has worked out fine for me and more than anything has been a learning experience. 

I would say to take your time.  With your experience you may have some options others wouldn't have.  Here are a few other options rather than to just start cold.  This list is not exhaustive, there are many ways to break in.  

1.  Become a junior partner with the chance to grow your own book and/or become part of a team.  Being a CPA and JD would give you a leg up against other newbies trying for the same position.  

2.  Hang up your shingle for CPA and Law and get your securities licenses and ease into the business.  I think your transition would come with a lot less heartburn and less risk.

3.  Look for a mid sized CPA firm (10-30) that does not currently offer investments and try to join them to start an investment arm of their firm.  You'll may need to do some CPA work at first in order to justify the salary you would need for the first couple years.  The growth would be much easier with inside access to a huge referral source.  Granted this may be an easier sell after a couple years at Merrill or EJ, but it is worth a shot now.

I have read good articles on #1 and #3 in the trade magazines maybe reg rep.  Could be online somewhere.

Final note, if you LOVE to sell (maybe one in 25 who start in this industry qualify) it doesn't matter at all where you start because you will do great.

Personally I am not the 1 in 25 and would not start over cold in this business at any wirehouse or regional firm.

Anyway best of luck in your decision.    

[quote=Borker Boy]

You know…I just can’t help but think
you’re in the perfect position right now. Are there two other
professions in this country that provide a better opportunity for
unlimited income than that of CPA or attorney? Both are
highly respected fields–much more so than “stock broking”–and
you don’t have to go out a create a need…you just hang a shingle and
get to work. And if a lawyer or CPA were to employ the
EDJ method of marketing, they’d have people lined up outside their
door waiting to do business with them. 
[/quote]

EDJ Lawyer: Knock Knock: Madam, have you been injured as a result of someone elses negligence?

EDJ CPA: Knock Knock: Sir, do you pay income tax?

[QUOTE]I'm friends with several CPAs and attorneys in my community, and though they work very hard, they seem to be very happy and financially secure. Actually, I'm about to begin studying for the LSAT, because my background is in law enforcement and I've always wanted to be a prosecutor... ...and then maybe move into the criminal defense side of things. (I spent many years working with the police officers I'd be defending against...and that should be a walk in the park to beat them. )[/quote]

Reasonable doubt for a reasonable price.

"Gentlemen of the Jury: Does this man look like someone who would sell a variable annuity?"

More seriously, as a CPA/Lawyer you can control your "deal flow", as a stockbroker you have to constantly hustle to even get deal flow. I second the idea of working a support position at an indy firm doing support work in estate/tax planning.

Since I don't have the problem of having to decide what career to begin now since I'm not happy with my JD or CPA, I didn't think of this earlier and am surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet with the intellectual powerhouses that frequent this forum. (Read: AllREIT)

If you go to work for EDJ as an IR--or any other wire house or regional brokerage firm for that matter--you'll be prohibited from giving legal and/or tax advice to your clients...even though you're certified and licensed in both disciplines.