Hiring w/o college degree

It is next to impossible to get an offer from any of these firms with out a BA/BS: 

 <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Merrill

Wachovia

Smith Barney

UBS

Goldman Sachs .. Hard even with an  MBA

Morgan Stanley

Try Edward Jones or Ray Jay.. 

You will be hard pressed to find a firm that will risk putting someone through a training program that does not have a college degree. The reason is because most firm want to know that you have the proper qualitative and quantitative ability that college will teach you. This business is not just “sales”, you must have the ability to analyze financial statements and break down a 10-K or similar literature as well as send well formed correspondence to not only clients but possibly your peers in your firm. In a nutshell, an individual creates an even larger liability in this industry without a college degree than they would have even if the had a BA/BS.

[quote=Shmer33]

It is next to impossible to get an offer from any of these firms with out a BA/BS: 

 <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Merrill

Wachovia

Smith Barney

UBS

Goldman Sachs .. Hard even with an  MBA

Morgan Stanley

Try Edward Jones or Ray Jay.. 

[quote=newkid]You will be hard pressed to find a firm that will risk putting someone through a training program that does not have a college degree. The reason is because most firm want to know that you have the proper qualitative and quantitative ability that college will teach you. This business is not just “sales”, you must have the ability to analyze financial statements and break down a 10-K or similar literature as well as send well formed correspondence to not only clients but possibly your peers in your firm. In a nutshell, an individual creates an even larger liability in this industry without a college degree than they would have even if the had a BA/BS.
[/quote]

Newkid you have no CLUE.  Sadly most experienced advisors have no idea how to read financial statements.  It is for most a sales job focussing strictly on asset gathering.  Too, most advisers do not actively manage clients’ money, but rather delegate it to mutual funds  or separate account managers.

[quote=joedabrkr] [quote=newkid]You will be hard pressed to find a firm that will risk putting someone through a training program that does not have a college degree. The reason is because most firm want to know that you have the proper qualitative and quantitative ability that college will teach you. This business is not just "sales", you must have the ability to analyze financial statements and break down a 10-K or similar literature as well as send well formed correspondence to not only clients but possibly your peers in your firm. In a nutshell, an individual creates an even larger liability in this industry without a college degree than they would have even if the had a BA/BS. [/quote]

Newkid you have no CLUE.  Sadly most experienced advisors have no idea how to read financial statements.  It is for most a sales job focussing strictly on asset gathering.  Too, most advisers do not actively manage clients' money, but rather delegate it to mutual funds  or separate account managers.
[/quote]

Nonetheless most reputable firms won't touch you without a degree.

There are a lot of reasons, including the danger of having to defend you in an arbitration hearing when the plaintiff's attorney starts to ask you about your education, where you went to school, what your GPA was and what degrees do you hold--just too much risk to have to admit not much education after all.

Joe is right, the job has virtually no need to break down a 10-K.

Add that in order to make this a career you're almost certainly going to need a CFP--and they're taking steps to deny the designation to anybody who does not have a degree.  This is going to force more and more firms to adopt a only degrees can be hired policy.

[quote=NASD Newbie]

[quote=joedabrkr] [quote=newkid]You will be hard pressed to find a firm that will risk putting someone through a training program that does not have a college degree. The reason is because most firm want to know that you have the proper qualitative and quantitative ability that college will teach you. This business is not just “sales”, you must have the ability to analyze financial statements and break down a 10-K or similar literature as well as send well formed correspondence to not only clients but possibly your peers in your firm. In a nutshell, an individual creates an even larger liability in this industry without a college degree than they would have even if the had a BA/BS. [/quote]Newkid you have no CLUE. Sadly most experienced advisors have no idea how to read financial statements. It is for most a sales job focussing strictly on asset gathering. Too, most advisers do not actively manage clients’ money, but rather delegate it to mutual funds or separate account managers.[/quote]

Nonetheless most reputable firms won’t touch you without a degree.

There are a lot of reasons, including the danger of having to defend you in an arbitration hearing when the plaintiff’s attorney starts to ask you about your education, where you went to school, what your GPA was and what degrees do you hold–just too much risk to have to admit not much education after all.

Joe is right, the job has virtually no need to break down a 10-K.

Add that in order to make this a career you’re almost certainly going to need a CFP–and they’re taking steps to deny the designation to anybody who does not have a degree. This is going to force more and more firms to adopt a only degrees can be hired policy.

I don’t expect everyone to agree with this, but as a CPA/CFP with a BS degree, and knowing how hard this business still is to master, I think a four year business degree, and a CFP minimum requirement would be a good thing.  Without a doubt, there are some fine advisors out there without these credentials, but there are far too many pretenders that end up doing a lot of damage to client portfolios before they weed themselves out.  If our minimum standards were higher, perhaps the investing public would have more confidence in our collective group, and perhaps the industry fail rate wouldn’t be quite so high.  I would welcome the raising of the bar…just a thought.

thanks guys for the posts…

I predict that within the next 5-7 years, the number of people getting CFPs will start to decline.  The reason for this is that The CFP might be a good knowledge base to have, but it does nothing to help someone succeed in this business.  We're starting to see tons of CFPs who can't make it in this business.

In fact, I believe that it is actually a real detriment to a new guy.  Well, not really a detriment, but a new guy would have a much better chance of succeeding this business if he spent those hundreds of hours spent studying and instead used the time to prospect.

Start succeeding in this business and then get the CFP or CLU/ChFC to increase your knowledge base. 

I can see a day when decent firms will require their representatives to obtain the CFP designation within, say, five years.

If those who offer the CFP designation require a college degree it will become a defacto rule of those firms that they cannot hire people without a college degree.

As IndyOne indicated, the bar is way too low.  I know that I am becoming repetative, but this business is not going to ever be considered a profession as long as it is even possible to be hired when you really don't know how to use the words "your and you're" or "their, there, and they're."

These seemingly small issues are just the tip of the stupidity iceberg.

The reality is that you are going to be constantly defending your book.  There will be people who move away and they'll transfer their account to a more local advisor--you can make the argument that you're still just a phone call away, and they'll even agree with you then sign the transfer papers.

Every day there is a chance that some other advisor is going to contact your client---after all, you found them somehow.  So will others.

When the market has eaten a huge portion of their portfolio--even if it's guaranteed--they're going to be looking around.  Don't lose sight of the fact that  you're not the only game in town. If you tell somebody, "Don't worry you have insurance that will give you your money back" they're going to have to be complete morons to not think, "I could do that by never talking to you again."

How valuable a source of referal is a guy who is dead in the water, waiting for his lockup period to expire so he can get the hell away from you?  Not getting sued is not the objective.

Then there's the stupidity issue.  If you are stupid--and several of yo who will read this are--you don't even understand that you act and look stupid.  Stupid people have a certain look to them, and they certainly have behavior patterns that scream "Hey, look at me!  I'm stupid!"

That you don't see it is because you're stupid.  But people with money see it.  Older people will never trust you, and younger people will learn to distrust you.

There are too many advisors who have the glint of intelligence in their eyes, who speak in the tones, syntax and vocabulary of the educated, who are "dressed for success" and who will win your clients away from you sooner or later.

If you don't dress like a mortician in a better suit and with a smile--you're not a long timer.

If you don't speak in the well modulated tones of a CEO conducting a board meeting--you're not a long timer.

If you don't really think any deeper than "Who's on the pole" at Darlington, or if you really care if the New York Yankees are winning, or if you'd rather be playing golf than looking for clients, or you have no idea who Ben Bernanke is, or you know you're in over your head but figure you can bluff it---you're going to fail.

That you fail is not the issue--the issue is as you fail you take your clients down with you.  People's lives are ruined.

Some of you are sociopaths--you have no real moral compass so you won't feel any real emotions if you walk away from Mr. and Mrs. Jones who are unable to retire because you shoved them into an investment that didn't grow.  Oh sure, fifteen years after they met you they still have their $100,000 so you're telling yourself you did them a favor.

They didn't entrust you with their $100,000 with the goal of getting it back--their goal was to make it grow.

How many of you feel qualified to make that happen?  How about well qualified to make that happen?

I concur.  I agree.  But you misspelled repetitive.  You misspelled repetitive.

I just try to be someone who can swoop in help people who are currently being "helped" by the lower caliber "talent" that there's plenty of in the business.

Requiring the CFP would sort out at least a % of the people who don't like no stinking tests and stuff.

[quote=Cowboy93]

I concur.  I agree.  But you misspelled repetitive.  You misspelled repetitive.

[/quote]

That is clever--I like clever.

[quote=NASD Newbie]

[quote=joedabrkr] [quote=newkid]You will be hard pressed to find a firm that will risk putting someone through a training program that does not have a college degree. The reason is because most firm want to know that you have the proper qualitative and quantitative ability that college will teach you. This business is not just "sales", you must have the ability to analyze financial statements and break down a 10-K or similar literature as well as send well formed correspondence to not only clients but possibly your peers in your firm. In a nutshell, an individual creates an even larger liability in this industry without a college degree than they would have even if the had a BA/BS. [/quote]

Newkid you have no CLUE.  Sadly most experienced advisors have no idea how to read financial statements.  It is for most a sales job focussing strictly on asset gathering.  Too, most advisers do not actively manage clients' money, but rather delegate it to mutual funds  or separate account managers.
[/quote]

Nonetheless most reputable firms won't touch you without a degree.

There are a lot of reasons, including the danger of having to defend you in an arbitration hearing when the plaintiff's attorney starts to ask you about your education, where you went to school, what your GPA was and what degrees do you hold--just too much risk to have to admit not much education after all.

Joe is right, the job has virtually no need to break down a 10-K.

Add that in order to make this a career you're almost certainly going to need a CFP--and they're taking steps to deny the designation to anybody who does not have a degree.  This is going to force more and more firms to adopt a only degrees can be hired policy.

[quote=Revealer]

 NASD:I respectfully disagree. The ability to read a balance sheet, income statement and cut through all the garbage in 10-Ks and prospectuses IS invaluable. I learned long ago that wall street "research" is a scam. If I wasn't in the business, the most important questions I would answer a prospective adviser would be...(1) What is your net worth? and (2) What is your personal portfolio rate of return vs. its benchmark(s) for the past 5 years? (Most "advisers don't know.) I have seen CFPs declare bancruptcy. There is only ONE way we keep score in this country and it is how much $$ are your portfolios making (or not losing.)

[/quote]

What in the world does that have to do with being able to disect a balance sheet?

You're wrong--most brokers don't know their way around balance sheets and income statements at all.

It's a very precise semi-science and unless you are a student of that company the numbers thrown out four times a year are meaningless to a registered representative.

Newkid you have no CLUE.  Sadly most experienced advisors have no
idea how to read financial statements.  It is for most a sales job
focussing strictly on asset gathering.  Too, most advisers do not
actively manage clients’ money, but rather delegate it to mutual
funds  or separate account managers.


I think we have someone with a college degree on our hand. Oh by the way



BBA Financial Engineering, University of Michigan, Manga Cum Laude

MBA University of Michigan



I think I have a “CLUE” about the industry.

[quote=newkid]Newkid you have no CLUE.  Sadly most experienced advisors have no
idea how to read financial statements.  It is for most a sales job
focussing strictly on asset gathering.  Too, most advisers do not
actively manage clients’ money, but rather delegate it to mutual
funds  or separate account managers.


I think we have someone with a college degree on our hand. Oh by the way



BBA Financial Engineering, University of Michigan, Manga Cum Laude

MBA University of Michigan



I think I have a “CLUE” about the industry.

[/quote]

First of all, WTF is “Financial Engineering”?  Sounds like the kind of hijinks that got Enron and others in trouble.

Second of all, I don’t think you have the “clue” you might claim.  If you have the degrees you lay claim to, it means you have plenty of academic learning, and congratulations for that acheivment.  It does not, however, mean that you know spit about the actual workings of this business, or even the real world at all.  Too, as NASD Newbie might point out, in cyberspace anyone can claim to be ANYTHING!

[quote=NASD Newbie]

[quote=Revealer]

 NASD:I respectfully disagree. The ability to read a balance sheet, income statement and cut through all the garbage in 10-Ks and prospectuses IS invaluable. I learned long ago that wall street "research" is a scam. If I wasn't in the business, the most important questions I would answer a prospective adviser would be...(1) What is your net worth? and (2) What is your personal portfolio rate of return vs. its benchmark(s) for the past 5 years? (Most "advisers don't know.) I have seen CFPs declare bancruptcy. There is only ONE way we keep score in this country and it is how much $$ are your portfolios making (or not losing.)

[/quote]

What in the world does that have to do with being able to disect a balance sheet?

You're wrong--most brokers don't know their way around balance sheets and income statements at all.

It's a very precise semi-science and unless you are a student of that company the numbers thrown out four times a year are meaningless to a registered representative.

i can definitely understand why firms, especially the major ones, would want their advisors to hold degrees, but something needs to be said of work experience also.  I just got hired at a major wirehouse and i don't have a degree, however, i have been in the business for about 8 yrs now and was an advisor in the bank channel. I am trying to get my degree online now, but it is slow because of dedicating some much time to work. Oh well, it's nice to know that there are firms out there that are willing to give people a chance...

[quote=bjack73]

i can definitely understand why firms, especially the major ones, would want their advisors to hold degrees, but something needs to be said of work experience also.  I just got hired at a major wirehouse and i don't have a degree, however, i have been in the business for about 8 yrs now and was an advisor in the bank channel. I am trying to get my degree online now, but it is slow because of dedicating some much time to work. Oh well, it's nice to know that there are firms out there that are willing to give people a chance...

[/quote]

Your customers have no chance--and that's what is wrong.

[quote=Shmer33]

It is next to impossible to get an offer from any of these firms with out a BA/BS: 

Merrill

Wachovia

Smith Barney

UBS

Goldman Sachs .. Hard even with an  MBA

Morgan Stanley

Try Edward Jones or Ray Jay..  
 

No degree necessary. All the majors will hire those with the right background.

Our biz is primarily sales. Like any good salesperson in any other industry it's important to become an expert in the products sold, the markets to which they are sold, the demographics of the target market, and the competition. Of course for us this means becoming an investment expert. The reason for the high drop out rate is the total misunderstanding of the job's primary task-sales. Well meaning highly educated candidates who believe that the primary task is consulting are contributing to the higher than ever failure rate we are experiencing today. Of course that leads to the question: If their so smart why didn't they know that this is a sales career?

Don't confuse education and designations with ethics. There is no correlation between the two. Ethics is the most important factor relating to investor success.

Serious investors don't care how much you know until the know how much you care. There will always be a smarter, more articulate, better dressed, more highly degreed advisor driving a nicer car at your client's door. Insulate yourself by showing your clients how much you care about them. Take an interest in what's important to them. Get to know them. Help them in other ways, outside the business. My wife cooked dinner for one client, after she got out of the hospital. I took another client's car for an oil change. I've helped countless clients in a variety of situations. From recommending doctors, to getting jobs for family members, to using political connections to get out of line neighbors in line. Become a resource for your clients and that smooth talking well dressed dude with the Harvard MBA won't get past the front door.

[quote=Shmer33]

It is next to impossible to get an offer from any of these firms with out a BA/BS: 

 <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Merrill

Wachovia

Smith Barney

UBS

Goldman Sachs .. Hard even with an  MBA

Morgan Stanley

[/quote]

I’m a newbie and I’ve already seen a number of people with existing books get recruited into my office.  Will the companies listed take on a non-degreed FA if they are coming in with a book of business?<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[quote=WealthManager][quote=Shmer33]

It is next to impossible to get an offer from any of these firms with out a BA/BS: 

 <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Merrill

Wachovia

Smith Barney

UBS

Goldman Sachs .. Hard even with an  MBA

Morgan Stanley

[/quote]

I’m a newbie and I’ve already seen a number of people with existing books get recruited into my office.  Will the companies listed take on a non-degreed FA if they are coming in with a book of business?<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[/quote]

Yes and they will pay them big bucks, give them fancy offices and make sure they have that warm fuzzy member of the club feeling. So, the answer is yes. Have a big enough book and they don't care if you made it out of the sixth grade. It's about money.

 I agree with Tjc .

Backgrounds will get you farther in the biz then a degree.

[quote=WealthManager][quote=Shmer33]

It is next to impossible to get an offer from any of these firms with out a BA/BS: 

Merrill

Wachovia

Smith Barney

UBS

Goldman Sachs .. Hard even with an  MBA

Morgan Stanley

[/quote]

I’m a newbie and I’ve already seen a number of people with existing books get recruited into my office.  Will the companies listed take on a non-degreed FA if they are coming in with a book of business?

These last few comments have been very good i think. No one on here i think is downplaying a good education, but i think for the most part that people would agree that this job is about sales and building relationships and not primarily what degree you have.

NASD made a comment that my clients are doomed because i don't have a degree. What a narrowed-minded comment. I have been an advisor for a few years now and have had some good success. You might as well say that since i am of african american descent that i am stealing my client's money and am buying drugs and plenty of bling-bling. Let's try to keep the postings business related and not be so quick to judge people without knowing them nor their circumstances.

[quote=bjack73]

These last few comments have been very good i think. No one on here i think is downplaying a good education, but i think for the most part that people would agree that this job is about sales and building relationships and not primarily what degree you have.

NASD made a comment that my clients are doomed because i don't have a degree. What a narrowed-minded comment. I have been an advisor for a few years now and have had some good success. You might as well say that since i am of african american descent that i am stealing my client's money and am buying drugs and plenty of bling-bling. Let's try to keep the postings business related and not be so quick to judge people without knowing them nor their circumstances.

[/quote]

As I said, your clients don't have a chance.  My opinion is formed because you are not well educated, you communicate like a moron, and you whine.

This is a business that every so often becomes very very challenging, and it appears as though you have never risen to the challenge--so why should you be able to rise to that one?

I'm just disappointed to realize how many functionally illiterate types are in the business--somehow I can't imagine that the industry as a whole is as poorly educated and poorly spoken as this forum is.

If it is God help us, because those of your ilk are going to oversee the loss of billions of dollars--we don't need to see the loss of trillions of them.

Of course, it certainly helps to be a member of the lucky sperm club, right NASD Newbie?

You see boys and girls, Put/Big Easy/NASD Newbie is a member of this club.  Unless he's a liar, his Dad is a retired general, so sonny-boy had a leg up when it came to jobs, clients, etc.

With all that going, he still lasted a mere six years in production. 

So listen close...a lot of wisdom and knowledge there.

[quote=Philo Kvetch]

Of course, it certainly helps to be a member of the lucky sperm club, right NASD Newbie?

You see boys and girls, Put/Big Easy/NASD Newbie is a member of this club.  Unless he's a liar, his Dad is a retired general, so sonny-boy had a leg up when it came to jobs, clients, etc.

With all that going, he still lasted a mere six years in production. 

So listen close...a lot of wisdom and knowledge there.

[/quote]

A general who I did not talk to at all from the time I was a college senior until I his sixtieth birthday when I was thirty five and went home at the urging of my mother.  I had precisely zero accounts with him or any of his friends.

What he did for me was teach me that the impossible takes a little longer and that I should volunteer every time a superior officer wanted something done.

One doesn't need to be in production more than six years to learn what it is about--but to learn how interesting this business actually is you have to expand your horizons far beyond retail production.

Poor Starka--who will come back as Philo and sneer again--is so jealous he can't see straight.

Poor Put…can’t admit that he couldn’t do it by himself.

What happened anway, Put?

Did you blow up all of Dad's friends in six years, so Dad got you into another firm's middle management?

C'mon, Put.  You're among friends here.

Oh wait, it's the Philo character who is whining. My mistake, he normally only whines about my father as Starka and I wasn't paying attention.

Too bad, Putsy.  Too bad.

Doesn't Dad have any more contacts for you?

[quote=Philo Kvetch]

Too bad, Putsy.  Too bad.

Doesn't Dad have any more contacts for you?

[/quote]

Not any more than your Dad has for you.  Do you know who your Dad is Starka?

[quote=NASD Newbie][quote=Philo Kvetch]

Too bad, Putsy.  Too bad.

Doesn't Dad have any more contacts for you?

[/quote]

Not any more than your Dad has for you.  Do you know who your Dad is Starka?

[/quote]

You see, Putsy?  I own you.  I can spin you up any time I want. 

Middle management my a$$.

[quote=NASD Newbie][quote=Philo Kvetch]

Of course, it certainly helps to be a member of the lucky sperm club, right NASD Newbie?

You see boys and girls, Put/Big Easy/NASD Newbie is a member of this club.  Unless he's a liar, his Dad is a retired general, so sonny-boy had a leg up when it came to jobs, clients, etc.

With all that going, he still lasted a mere six years in production. 

So listen close...a lot of wisdom and knowledge there.

[/quote]

A general who I did not talk to at all from the time I was a college senior until I his sixtieth birthday when I was thirty five and went home at the urging of my mother.  I had precisely zero accounts with him or any of his friends.

What he did for me was teach me that the impossible takes a little longer and that I should volunteer every time a superior officer wanted something done.

One doesn't need to be in production more than six years to learn what it is about--but to learn how interesting this business actually is you have to expand your horizons far beyond retail production.

Poor Starka--who will come back as Philo and sneer again--is so jealous he can't see straight.

[/quote]

Nasty Newbie- Philo's got you so shook you don't make sense...and YOU the Master Of Sentanceology...The Commander of Communication... The Emperor of Education...

Try therapy. Just because daddy didn't love you doesn't mean you always have to be an a$$-whole.

[quote=Shmer33]

It is next to impossible to get an offer from any of these firms with out a BA/BS: 

 <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Merrill

Wachovia

Smith Barney

UBS

Goldman Sachs .. Hard even with an  MBA

Morgan Stanley

Try Edward Jones or Ray Jay.. 

[/quote]

Not really.

I have worked for one of the three and gotten offers from 3 of the others without a degree.  A degree is simply a piece of paper that clearly states that "I have wasted 4 years of my life".

[quote=newkid]You will be hard pressed to find a firm that will risk putting someone through a training program that does not have a college degree. The reason is because most firm want to know that you have the proper qualitative and quantitative ability that college will teach you. This business is not just "sales", you must have the ability to analyze financial statements and break down a 10-K or similar literature as well as send well formed correspondence to not only clients but possibly your peers in your firm. In a nutshell, an individual creates an even larger liability in this industry without a college degree than they would have even if the had a BA/BS. [/quote]

This business is PURELY SALES and relationships and as long as you can understand algebra II you will be find.  There are no complex statements to read in the world of a retail broker.  Perhaps you are confusing this career with that of a financial analyst.

[quote=menotellname]

Not really.

I have worked for one of the three and gotten offers from 3 of the others without a degree.  A degree is simply a piece of paper that clearly states that "I have wasted 4 years of my life".

[/quote]

How many of you who are smart enough to have graduated with a degree, or degrees, agree that they are nothing more than pieces of paper that clearly state that you wasted four years of your life?

If you believe this guy works for a wirehouse and had offers from three others please contact me regarding buying the Brooklyn Bridge which was recently put up for sale by a cash strapped City of New York.

First Investor might have hired him, perhaps Waddell & Reed.  But there is no way for a top six firm.

Perhaps SW Bach--are they still around?

Oops…meant “fine” two posts back.

[quote=NASD Newbie]

[quote=menotellname]

Not really.

I have worked for one of the three and gotten offers from 3 of the others without a degree.  A degree is simply a piece of paper that clearly states that "I have wasted 4 years of my life".

[/quote]

How many of you who are smart enough to have graduated with a degree, or degrees, agree that they are nothing more than pieces of paper that clearly state that you wasted four years of your life?

If you believe this guy works for a wirehouse and had offers from three others please contact me regarding buying the Brooklyn Bridge which was recently put up for sale by a cash strapped City of New York.

First Investor might have hired him, perhaps Waddell & Reed.  But there is no way for a top six firm.

Perhaps SW Bach--are they still around?

[/quote]

Put, Put, Put...I have more on the ball than you.  I DID NOT start my career off of illegal inside trading tips in Texas (like you).  Trust me, Put.

Keep up...I was at one of the "Big 6" three years ago.

Anyway...as a member of a select group of highly intelligent people I found this article in our most recent "bulletin":

If You're So Smart...

By Marty Nemko
 
You'd think that the supersmart have it made. Not so. Being highly intelligent comes with surprising workplace burdens, as I've learned during 20 years as a career coach specializing in intellectually gifted adults. Here are suggestions I've made that clients have found most helpful:
 
Confirm your capability. Most gifted adults wonder if they're really that smart. Well, check it out: take an intelligence (IQ) test. A high score can give you confidence that will last a lifetime. (130 is a widely used threshold score for giftedness.)

Today, IQ tests are often disparaged, but a large body of rigorous research indicates that IQ is a valid measure of the ability to think in complex, abstract terms, and to learn quickly--critical attributes in school, work, and life.

IQ isn't a perfect gauge; it doesn't measure drive or emotional intelligence, for example. But many studies, such as those by Linda Gottfredson of the University of Delaware, have found that IQ is the single best predictor of job performance.  
 
Want to take an intelligence test? Go to http://www.mensa.org, the world's largest organization of intellectually gifted people.  
 
Embrace your ability. Many people try to hide their intelligence, even from themselves. Intelligence is a wonderful attribute. Certainly don't brag, but inside, feel good about it.  
 
Use your intelligence well. As with all power, intellectual power is only admirable when used for positive purposes. What's the best way to use that great mind of yours? To try to cure a disease? Solve a social ill? Start a company that provides an important service?

Even in small things, use your mind well. Help co-workers, neighbors, even strangers-problems that are impossible for others to solve are easy for you. Noblesse oblige.
 
Find kindred spirits. Many gifted people feel like outsiders. That's because they do think differently, more rigorously, than average people. Make the effort to find a job at a place that employs many brilliant people: top biotech companies, consulting firms, financial institutions, think tanks, law firms, and universities.

However, avoid teaching except at elite universities. The gap between your intellect and your students' will frustrate you all.
 
Consider avocations likely to attract smart people book clubs, Mensa, groups that play intellectual games, for example, chess clubs, etc.
 
Trust yourself more than experts. (including me) Yes, consider experts' input, but don't automatically let their views trump yours. A consultant may recommend, for example, that your company convert to a new accounting system.

Your gifted mind can probably take into consideration many factors beyond what the consultant can. Reserve the final judgment for yourself.

You can afford to be a dabbler. Society denigrates them as "jacks of all trades, masters of none." True--but not for the intellectually gifted.

Many of the brilliant people I know have significant accomplishments in multiple areas. Feel free to delve into a range of endeavors. Just monitor yourself to see that you are indeed accomplishing things.
 
If you're self-motivated, avoid school. Sure, that sounds controversial, but even elite colleges and graduate schools are designed for the bright but not brilliant.

If you're a self-motivated learner, you'll probably learn more-and focus more on what you care about--by taking charge of your own learning. Read what you want to read, for instance, get mentored by those whom you respect, try out your learning with self-designed projects, etc.

Self-teachers who describe their learning process to prospective employers are often hired over more conventional applicants, who required the handholding of school and whose learning is usually more theoretical and less relevant in the workplace.
 
Work with people whose minds match yours. If you work with weak co-workers or bosses, you'll be forced into a Hobson's Choice: intimidate them or stifle yourself. Normal people drive the gifted crazy. It's worth taking the time to seek out a workplace filled with smart people that you end up among your intellectual peers.
 
If you already work at a stifling job, but aren't ready to leave, try to brand yourself as The Brain while allowing others to save face. You might say something like, "I love trying to figure out the thorny problems. If you ever have one, I'd enjoy taking a crack at it."  
 
Consider self-employment. Brilliant people often do well as consultants to high-level businesses, non-profits, and universities because those jobs requires the ability to quickly solve problems clients couldn't solve themselves, despite inside knowledge of their operation.
 
Beware of starting a business in which you try to create a new product. Success in such ventures depends on many factors beyond your control.

Unless you have pockets deep enough to afford multiple failures, or are a genius at convincing others to fund you, you will likely end up broke, no matter how smart you are.
 
Resist calls for balance. Brilliant people find themselves driven to explore things deeply, often to the exclusion of "normal" things, like family time, a clean and neat house, watching TV, or going to parties.

Embrace your intensity. Don't let people denigrate you as workaholic, or criticize you for lacking balance. What you are is productive. Other people may be jealous that they lack your drive and intellect.
 
Don't expect to be a genius all the time. Even geniuses sometimes want to goof around. And sometimes you simply won't be at your best. No matter how brilliant you are, you're also human. Allow yourself human failings.
 
Find the right person to love you. One of the signature characteristics of genius is that they like to use their brain during most of their waking hours.

In contrast, average people, after a 40-hour workweek, are more likely to want to veg out and turn to mindless activities, for example, cleaning house or enjoying a family game of Monopoly.

So, you probably need to find a romantic partner who is very bright and who won't insist that at the 40-hour mark, you turn off your brain.

Whatever, I ask again.  How many of you who were bright enough to understand that getting a degree is important in life figure that yours is/are nothing more than pieces of paper indicating that you wasted four or more years of your life?

If you have a degree do you figure that you wasted those years even though an elementary school drop out can qualify for your job?

[quote=NASD Newbie]

Whatever, I ask again.  How many of you who were bright enough to understand that getting a degree is important in life figure that yours is/are nothing more than pieces of paper indicating that you wasted four or more years of your life?

If you have a degree do you figure that you wasted those years even though an elementary school drop out can qualify for your job?

[/quote]

Again...your degree is worth nothing more than the paper that it is written on.

According to Wikipedia:

"A large meta-analysis (Hunter and Hunter, 1984) which pooled validity results across many studies encompassing thousands of workers (32,124 for cognitive ability), reports that the
validity of cognitive ability for entry-level jobs is (0.54)
larger than any other measure including job tryout (0.44)
experience (0.18)
interview (0.14)
age (?0.01)
education (0.10)
and biographical inventory (0.37)

Because higher test validity allows more accurate prediction of job performance, companies have a strong incentive to use cognitive ability tests to select and promote employees. IQ thus has high practical validity in economic terms. The utility of using one measure over another is proportional to the difference in their validities, all else equal. This is one economic reason why companies use job interviews (validity 0.14) rather than randomly selecting employees (validity 0.0)."

Also...to answer your question:

Since the courts forbade intelligence testing of job applicants, prospective employers have little they can use to evaluate candidates. First they have a stack of resumes that are largely meaningless. For any high level position, the resume and the "facts" cited are obviously completely one-sided. Nobody will put on their resume, "I'm dumb as a stick and kept my last job only because I was skilled at sucking up to the boss." Nobody brags that, "I'm a professional chair warmer and have the bachelor's degree to prove it!"  As such, I have found that most degreed persons are no more than "professional chair warmers". 

One expects nothing less than these types of frenzied defenses of the fact that they are not bright enough to know that getting a degree is very important in the United States of America.

When this creature washes out of the brokerage industry he will find it impossible to return because of the move from CFP to only grant the designation to those who have degrees.

No NASD member worth their salt will hire a guy or gal who will be blocked from obtaining the CFP designation.  It will be the education requirement that firms have wanted but been afraid to implement.

Go ten years into your career.  The market has had a bad streak and you find yourself embroiled in arbitration claims.  You will be making your case to three panelists--all of whom are formally educated.

You will be sitting in the witness chair, having been sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

The attorney who is representing your client will ask, "Mr. Jones would you please detail your education for the panel."

The attorney will then stop and listen--he, of course, will already know that you have virtually no formal education.

Do you think you can put a smile face on that for the panel?  Can you understand why real brokerage firms won't touch you with a ten foot pole and/or will fire you if you don't  hit numbers right away.

You are a ticking time bomb who should be driving a UPS truck instead of advising people about what to do with their hard earned money.

[quote=NASD Newbie]

One expects nothing less than these types of frenzied defenses of the fact that they are not bright enough to know that getting a degree is very important in the United States of America.

When this creature washes out of the brokerage industry he will find it impossible to return because of the move from CFP to only grant the designation to those who have degrees.

No NASD member worth their salt will hire a guy or gal who will be blocked from obtaining the CFP designation.  It will be the education requirement that firms have wanted but been afraid to implement.

Go ten years into your career.  The market has had a bad streak and you find yourself embroiled in arbitration claims.  You will be making your case to three panelists--all of whom are formally educated.

You will be sitting in the witness chair, having been sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

The attorney who is representing your client will ask, "Mr. Jones would you please detail your education for the panel."

The attorney will then stop and listen--he, of course, will already know that you have virtually no formal education.

Do you think you can put a smile face on that for the panel?  Can you understand why real brokerage firms won't touch you with a ten foot pole and/or will fire you if you don't  hit numbers right away.

You are a ticking time bomb who should be driving a UPS truck instead of advising people about what to do with their hard earned money.

[/quote]

Getting a degree is HIGHLY OVERRATED in the United States.  If you are stupid...then get a degree.  If you are intelligent then GET TO WORK.

If you need 4 (or more) years of hand holding after high school then go for it.  An intelligent being can take CLEP exams and accelerated courses and have a degree in less than 18 months in their spare time.  I would question why a TRULY INTELLIGENT being would waste that kind of time.  I have NEVER had a client (or potential client) ask me about a CFP designation.  Only those in the industry even know what it is.

Somehow I believe that you are living in a fantasy world when you are talking about being "blocked" from obtaining a CFP.  Perhaps you should stop fantasizing about how YOU would design the future.  Nobody shares your "dream".

When using a complex strategy of multiple contracts with fixed options and guarantees I find it highly unlikely that I will be the subject of any arbitration claims.  Again...quit "dreaming".  Wake up Rip Van Winkle.

I wake up with a smile on my face everyday when I look at fools like you.  The market had a bad streak when I obtained my series 7.  I am a "bear market broker".  Keep trying, Put.  You keep swinging and missing.

Hey...tell me again about the trifling little accountant that gave you a break by sharing the insider information that he learned from his superiors.  Regale me with tales of your "hard work" in insider trading. 

I find it laughable that you are now in management and talk down to others on here.  Yet, you got your start as a lowly "stock clerk" taking orders from other failed financial professionals.  Heck...had you and your accountant friend in Texas not made out like bandits on illegal trading you wouldn't be here today...LOSER.  

[quote=menotellname]

Getting a degree is HIGHLY OVERRATED in the United States.  If you are stupid...then get a degree.  If you are intelligent then GET TO WORK.

[/quote]

How many of you with degrees believe that?

How many of you have seen interesting jobs being advertised and been forced to stop when it says that a degree is required?

Apparently Menotellname did not have a father who taught him that he should graduate from a respectable college or university--that simply having that degree would open countless doors that will never open without it.

Regardless of what he is saying--and remember this is a liar's dream domain--your life will be infinitely better if you make the effort to get a formal education.

[quote=NASD Newbie]

[quote=menotellname]

Getting a degree is HIGHLY OVERRATED in the United States.  If you are stupid...then get a degree.  If you are intelligent then GET TO WORK.

[/quote]

How many of you with degrees believe that?

How many of you have seen interesting jobs being advertised and been forced to stop when it says that a degree is required?

Apparently Menotellname did not have a father who taught him that he should graduate from a respectable college or university--that simply having that degree would open countless doors that will never open without it.

Regardless of what he is saying--and remember this is a liar's dream domain--your life will be infinitely better if you make the effort to get a formal education.

[/quote]

I find it highly amusing that you keep seeking approval from others and keep failing to make a valid point.

Heck...my father has several degrees.  Somehow I don't think he needed them but he choose a career in academia and they looked nice on the wall.

Beyond that, I do not believe that an intelligent person would stop when a job said that a college degree is required.  Usually those same positions also say "or equivalent experience".  In every instance an intelligent person can distinguish themselves.

Somehow I haven't had to rely on insider trading to make it in this industry.  Can you say that Put?  Tell me about your start in Tex-ass.

[quote=menotellname][quote=NASD Newbie]

[quote=menotellname]

Getting a degree is HIGHLY OVERRATED in the United States.  If you are stupid...then get a degree.  If you are intelligent then GET TO WORK.

[/quote]

How many of you with degrees believe that?

How many of you have seen interesting jobs being advertised and been forced to stop when it says that a degree is required?

Apparently Menotellname did not have a father who taught him that he should graduate from a respectable college or university--that simply having that degree would open countless doors that will never open without it.

Regardless of what he is saying--and remember this is a liar's dream domain--your life will be infinitely better if you make the effort to get a formal education.

[/quote]

I find it highly amusing that you keep seeking approval from others and keep failing to make a valid point.

Heck...my father has several degrees.  Somehow I don't think he needed them but he choose a career in academia and they looked nice on the wall.

Beyond that, I do not believe that an intelligent person would stop when a job said that a college degree is required.  Usually those same positions also say "or equivalent experience".  In every instance an intelligent person can distinguish themselves.

Somehow I haven't had to rely on insider trading to make it in this industry.  Can you say that Put?  Tell me about your start in Tex-ass.

[/quote]

Menotellname, do you suppose your mother knows who you father is?

Poor, poor Putsy.

You like to dish it out but you just can't take it, can you Put?

Not to worry.  Dad will call soon to help you fix it.  Maybe even find you a new job!

[quote=Philo Kvetch]

Poor, poor Putsy.

You like to dish it out but you just can't take it, can you Put?

Not to worry.  Dad will call soon to help you fix it.  Maybe even find you a new job!

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SymReal();
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SymOnLoad()
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window.open = SymRealWinOpen;
SymReal = window.;
window. = Sym;
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SymRealOnLoad = window.onload;
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26 out of 30 on the Mensa exam.  I stunk it up on the word and letter parts.  Killed it on everything else.  BTW, I have a Liberal Arts degree–spread rather equally between Political Science, Economics, History, Foreign Language, and Philosophy.  Got into this business after serving as an infantry officer.  What else do you do with a Liberal Arts degree?

[quote=menotellname] Getting a degree is HIGHLY OVERRATED in the <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />United States.  If you are stupid...then get a degree.  If you are intelligent then GET TO WORK.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

If you need 4 (or more) years of hand holding after high school then go for it.  An intelligent being can take CLEP exams and accelerated courses and have a degree in less than 18 months in their spare time.  I would question why a TRULY INTELLIGENT being would waste that kind of time.[/quote]

I used to agree with you but then I used to be naive like you.

I didn’t earn my college degree until 13-years after I graduated high school.  I too believed that a college degree was overrated and that intelligent people didn’t need to waste four years in college when they could be out in the “real world” working.  I still don’t completely disagree with that statement as I am living proof that you can be very successful even before earning a college degree.  What changed with me is that I matured enough to understand the value in earning an accredited education.  It’s not the piece of paper that matters.  It’s partly having the emotional intelligence, willingness to learn and dedication to complete the task that matters.  College exposes you to topics that you might have otherwise been unwilling to learn about.  It is these new experiences that broaden your outlook and help you become more aware and well rounded.  Sure, you can be successful without a college degree but chances are that you will be even more successful if you have a college degree.

If you don’t have a college degree, then go back and earn one.  Don’t go through life always trying to convince others that your lack of degree is not really the failure that it is.

WM

I kind of equate a degree with a drivers license. Doesn't mean you're a good driver, just means you're ok to drive. Hope that half a$$ metaphor helps...

[quote=WealthManager]

If you don’t have a college degree, then go back and earn one.  Don’t go through life always trying to convince others that your lack of degree is not really the failure that it is.

WM

[/quote]

Say it!

Apparently "Say It" is not a universally understood statement.

It is a cheer--sort of like at Hyde Park in London you'll hear people cheering, "Hear Here" meaning come over here and hear what is being said.

How many of you knew there were a "here" and a "hear?"

Different people come to this industry with different skills.  I know of a branch manager at Ray Jay and a $1m producer without college degrees.

Both of these people brought a great deal to the table, and they were older professionals with tons of contacts.  They are very valuable members of our team.  Both are in their 40s and would tell you straight out that they wish they had degrees.

So when you are talking to a hiring manager, you will have to be able to explain why that manager would hire you vs. the HUGE amount of people out there who are just as capable and worked and sacrificed to earn a degree.

[quote=NASD Newbie]

Apparently "Say It" is not a universally understood statement.

It is a cheer--sort of like at Hyde Park in London you'll hear people cheering, "Hear Here" meaning come over here and hear what is being said.

How many of you knew there were a "here" and a "hear?"

[/quote]

Attended an all black gospel church for years. I assimilate "say it" to mean..."say on" -OR- "preach on pastor" -OR- my favorite "tell the truth and shame the devil"

or go ahead sister? speak it brother? you ain’t never lied?

amen!

I'm waving my hanky at you right now, no idea.

[quote=no idea]or go ahead sister? speak it brother? you ain't never lied?[/quote]

Throw out those clocks and watches, we're on Holy Ghost time now!

One of the problems with the formally educated is the arrogance it breeds. Like telling someone without a degree that they should be driving a UPS truck. Snobbery at its worst.

I agree that a degree is or will soon be a minimum requirement. Is it really necessary to succeed in this career? In a word, no. However, the gate keepers, most of whom are very similar to the chair warmers Meno speaks of, will make it so.

What I find interesting is the incredible disconnect between education and the real world. Of course much of this can be attributed to the fact that many, if not most educators have never worked in the real world. This neatly explains why they encourage young men and woman to spend their parent's hard earned money pursuing degrees in art, or music. Or to obtain an equally useless under grad in psychology or marine biology. Of course these are all worthy advocations but, go to four years of school for any of these, and by no means is this the complete list, and you can get a job folding jeans at the Gap. A few will go on for the post grad, and some will find work at social agencies, and some will go on to that great bastion of the useless without PhD degrees, State Government. Where they will fit quite nicely into a career of the 35 hour work week trying to hide from the new incoming governor every four years but, most will be working at Walmart scratching their heads thinking I thought I was smarter than this.

tjc45–do you have a degree?

[quote=NASD Newbie]

Whatever, I ask again.  How many of you who were bright enough to understand that getting a degree is important in life figure that yours is/are nothing more than pieces of paper indicating that you wasted four or more years of your life?

If you have a degree do you figure that you wasted those years even though an elementary school drop out can qualify for your job?

[/quote]

I got hired at a "top 3" firm w/o a college degree and no industry experience.  Conventional learning options (college) were not much of an option to me (for reasons I don't care to go into).  I can say unequivocally that I am glad I chose not to go to college because it would have been a waste of four years FOR ME.  Different people have different learning approaches and life circumstances.

I for one put a lot more value in a persons actual aptitudes, qualities and achievements (which college is only one of many potential life achievements) not some f*ckin' piece of paper.  Being young (just turned 29) and living in a college town, I have a lot of very smart friends in college and I think that although it is a valuable experience for many, there is sooooo much BS that goes on, I have a hard time of understanding WHY employers really care at all. 

I think entering the workforce and paying bills and 'growing up' during those 4 years was a far better direction to go, plus I saved my self from the temptation to 'get lost' in all the college trappings of binge drinking and drugs.  In fact, in talking with my friends and seeing what there up to I have concluded that college is actually a tremendous distraction for the majority of students. 

For anyone familiar with the REALITY of college life, NASD's comments sound very nieve and ideal.  The truth is that college is a place to party for 4 years and learn some stuff....for most.

The request is not for yet another person who didn't have what it takes to finish to step up and scream, "Stop talking about me...."

What I'm looking for is somebody who did have what it takes to complete their education to step up and claim that those were wasted years.

[quote=tjc45]

One of the problems with the formally educated is the arrogance it breeds. Like telling someone without a degree that they should be driving a UPS truck. Snobbery at its worst.

[/quote]

Nicely said tjc. I have two cousins. Both of whom went to very good schools, one has degrees in Finance & Business Management, series 7, 6, 63 & 66 licensed. The other is a CFP, CFA, ChLU, Accountant & Registered Principal (with all according securities licenses).

When I announced at a family gathering 7 years ago that I would be joining my Rep as a BOA at Edward Jones, both cousins sneered & patrionizingly patted me on the head. Cousin #1 had just taken an intern's position at TCW/Cowen. Cousin #2 was endeavoring into "high stakes aquisitions & mergers". 

In the last 7 years, Cousin #1 has not managed to stay on more than 6 months at any place he has worked, and currently works as an order taker from day traders.  Cousin #2 managed to do well for himself, though spent money like a drunk monkey -- was fired one year ago, and has not gone back to work since, because he refuses to start from scratch.

Not the best use of a degree, I'd say.

By the way -- I did go to college. I am not doing what I set out to do in college.

I studied Early Childhood Education. I did work as a teacher in the early years of my marriage, before we had children and needed money to survive.

[quote=Devoted SA]

I have two cousins. Both of whom went to very good schools, one has degrees in Finance & Business Management, series 7, 6, 63 & 66 licensed. The other is a CFP, CFA, ChLU, Accountant & Registered Principal (with all according securities licenses).

[/quote]

Why would your cousin have a Series 6 and a Series 7?

Your cousin--with all those degrees and licenses--has been barred fom the business and simply cannot admit it to the family.

I had a series 6 and 63 first (worked as an intern at a WELL KNOWN insurnace company), then got 7 later, along with 66.

Put...shut up.

[quote=BankFC]

I had a series 6 and 63 first (worked as an intern at a WELL KNOWN insurnace company), then got 7 later, along with 66.

Put...shut up.

[/quote]

Tell me, genius, do you have a Series 6 and a Series 7?

I have a 6 & 7. First got 6 when I was a bank officer and they wanted us to be able to talk about the banks mutual funds. They blew up a nicely a few years down the road.

I don't question NASD. He's not the same person I grew up wanting to be like.

He's a jet set LA "kid" (even though he's nearly 40 & still lives like a frat boy) and whenever you ask him about his job and what he's doing -- you never get a straight answer. It's..."I'm puttin some feelers out there." "We're out there eatin a little bit of whatever we kill". ....

Mr. Fancy Pants he thinks he is. I'll just keep pluggin away.

[quote=NASD Newbie]

[quote=Devoted SA]

I have two cousins. Both of whom went to very good schools, one has degrees in Finance & Business Management, series 7, 6, 63 & 66 licensed. The other is a CFP, CFA, ChLU, Accountant & Registered Principal (with all according securities licenses).

[/quote]

Why would your cousin have a Series 6 and a Series 7?

Your cousin--with all those degrees and licenses--has been barred fom the business and simply cannot admit it to the family.

[/quote]

You would have a series 6 and series 7 if you obtained the 6 first and then obtained the 7.  Obviously, the series 6 is not needed when you then have the 7, but you still have it, nevertheless. 

So your premise is that a degree in anything from any school makes a person a better financial advisor.  How about a degree in Landscape Design, Medieval Art History, Mesoamerican Archeology (which I have), Women's Studies, Underwater Basket Weaving? How about someone who has obtained their degree on line through the University of Phoenix?  How do these examples make a person more qualified to construct a portfolio of investments?  I suppose you wouldn't hire Bill Gates and automatically relegate him to the cubby hole in your mind of loser.

Some of the most stupid people I have ever met are college graduates. They are elitist snobs, who haven' the slightest idea on how the real world works.  Some of the smartest and savviest business men I know haven't obtained degrees from an institute of "higher" learning.  Given the declining educational system that we have in this country (and I know you agree with me on this) the dubious quality of education and subsequent diploma is hardly what I would call a "gold standard".  (A cultural reference of which 90% of your college graduates are competely ignorant. I would be willing to bet big bucks if I were the gambling type.)  Many college students have graduated from 4 to 6 years of time wasting classes, political indoctrination from far left leaning clueless professors and having taken the easiest classes available just to get by and keep the GPA at a higher level.  They graduate without any real knowledge and certainly few job skills.

http://www.nas.org/print/pressreleases/hqnas/releas_18dec02. htm

http://www.freecongress.org/commentaries/2006/060202.asp

http://www.makestupidityhistory.org/2005/12/16/new-study-75- of-college-graduates-are-stupid/

This whole thread reminds me of the Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz.  If he only has a piece of paper from he thinks he will suddenly become brilliant. He was smart all along.  Unfortunately for us, as a society, the determination that a piece of paper makes a person some how "better" than another is just another way to continue to create a permanent subclass of people.  Also is a way to reinforce the false presumption that there is a smart elite class that has the right to rule the sub-elites. 

Babs…if there were a way to combine a course of study in mesoamerican archeology & underwater basketweaving, which would then require a semester or six abroad – you wouldn’t find a more dedicated pupil than I.

[quote=NASD Newbie]

The request is not for yet another person who didn't have what it takes to finish to step up and scream, "Stop talking about me...."

What I'm looking for is somebody who did have what it takes to complete their education to step up and claim that those were wasted years.

[/quote]

NASD, do you have any grasp on the idea that people are different?  To you, the world should be one of conformist standardized lemmings marching to the beat of the hubristic (do you know what that word means?  Many of my college friends don't ) ideals of old white men.  In reading your posts, I have found that your grammar, sentence structure and ability to articulate concepts contradicts with the standards you set for others.  In essence...you are a hypocrite. 

I didn't go to college and I'd eat your lunch if it came to a contest of wit, intellect and ability to articulate (not that I'm a God of the written word or anything).  I certainly wipe my ass with my college friends when it comes to these atributes and you can't even compete with them.  They come to ME for help with their homework projects.  How could a lowly non-college graduate be of any good to these vastly superior human beings?  Guess what, if I was a business owner I'd probably hire the simpleton 'idiots' that developed a real work ethic by having to go to work everyday and manage their lives so they could be reliable employees...... instead of learning a pattern of distraction and partying then cramming last second for their finals before going back to the pattern of partying and ultimately hanging out, which in my experience is EXACTLY what college is all about (for the majority, which is what we should be addressing in this thread).  Yes there are exceptions to the rule but then.......that would just make my point stronger that IT'S THE INDIVIDUAL STOOOOPID.  No degree can verify, validate or provide proof that the individual is an exceptional person;  life experiences can though......and college isn't the only provider of life experience.

[quote=babbling looney]

I suppose you wouldn't hire Bill Gates and automatically relegate him to the cubby hole in your mind of loser.

[/quote]

Bill Gates is often tossed up--he never submitted a resume, but if he had he would have found most doors closed to him.

I get bored with everybody screaming, "Stop talking about me!!!" as they launch into the mind numbing litany of how unimportant having a college education is.

I have not read every comment but as of this moment I'm still waiting for somebody who did have what it takes to not quit to come along and say that they consider their efforts to have been as useless as those who don't have what it takes to accomplish a goal keep telling each other.

I had a great time in college. So much so that I extended it out for a few extra semesters. Was it wasted time? No, but looking back I sure wish I’d finished it faster. The best learning experience I ever had was living in a foreign country.

I wish there was a way to pull my last post....I'm such a sucker for these trolls.  Babbling Looney, the /ignore idea is a great one for sure!

You see.....NASD has actually provided some great insights and 'nuggets' of wisdom that demonstrate a nuanced understanding of our industry.  Some of his posts have been helpful for me, but this repetitive, regurgitated crap is getting on my nerves.  I am a sucker to even get involved anymore.

I don't understand how someone so foolish, ignorant and cheesy ever had any measure of success in this industry.  My experience of the succesful individuals in this business are nothing like NASD.  They may have gargantuan egos, a dose of arrogance and other undesirable traits, but they definitely have an understanding of the value of their time and don't waste other's time.  They focus mostly on themselves and ignore what others are doing.  In addition they have had one trait that is definitley missing in NASD's posts.......an clear understanding of what EFFECTIVE behavior is.....what produces meaningful results, not what strokes their ego.  They would choose to ignore (or keep reply's brief) those who are obviously not up to par. 

Doesn't match up.

[quote=NASD Newbie]tjc45--do you have a degree?[/quote]

College degree? No

I became disillusioned with the industrial- educational complex as a troubled young man and walked out of a very good school. I proceeded to go on to make several million dollars in my early and mid twenties only to lose all of it by my late twenties. I often wonder if the degree I was pursuing in Architecture would have changed that? We only know the road we travel, so that answer is unknowable.

I may go for a degree when I retire. Maybe one of the arts. My sister inlaw did that, graduated with triple majors in history, literature and art. She was sixty when she got her degree. I always thought that was cool.

I respect education but disrepect the way it is abused.

[quote=tjc45]

I proceeded to go on to make several million dollars in my early and mid twenties only to lose all of it by my late twenties.

[/quote]

Don't you hate it when that happens.  That's my story too.

How could a lowly non-college graduate be of any good to these vastly superior human beings? 

Sounds to me, (in my "simpleton" opinion) like you've got a fairly good grasp on things. You show up every day - you work - you make money.

Guys like my cousins couldn't carry your lunch box across the street. Because while they learned a whole lot in college, they still didn't learn the "business end of a hammer" (my favorite new saying).

[quote=Devoted SA]Babs....if there were a way to combine a course of study in mesoamerican archeology & underwater basketweaving, which would then require a semester or six abroad -- you wouldn't find a more dedicated pupil than I. [/quote]

Me too.  I majored in Mesoamerican Archeology with a minor in Ceramics. How are those for useful degrees.   It was a lot of fun, but make a living.  NOT.  I have yet to have any relevant application of my studies in my 16+ years as a financial advisor/bank lendinng officer. 

If the question is "Are people without college degrees uniformly too stupid to make it in this business" the answer is an emphatic “no”.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 If the question is “Are there people around today in this business that lack a college degree but bring much to the table on behalf of their clients?” my answer would be a solid “yes”.

If the question is “A decade or more ago was a college degree considered much more than the mere threshold of education that it’s widely viewed as today?”, again, I’d answer “yes”.

However, if  the question is “Is this a profession, and as such, today, should there be a bare minimum requirement of a college education in order to be hired at a tier one firm”, I’d have to say “yes”.

I have no intention f insulting anyone, and I don’t care to swap stories about the industrious non-college graduates I’ve known or the abject failures with college degrees that I’ve come across. Those weren’t questions on my above list, and obviously I agree that examples of both exist.

A final question, “Does being on the same side of a heated issue as Put bother you, especially given the fact that some of the people that you respect here are on the other side” my answer is “Yes, yes, and yes again”.

[quote=NASD Newbie][quote=tjc45]

I proceeded to go on to make several million dollars in my early and mid twenties only to lose all of it by my late twenties.

[/quote]

Don't you hate it when that happens.  That's my story too.

[/quote]

I sure hated it then. Thought my life was over. Went from driving a Porsche to a used Rabbit. Worse still, the Rabbit burned oil big time. Very impressive! Took me a couple of years to regain traction. Best part of that time was I met my wife. I was so broke on our first date that as we sat at the table at the Ground Round I prayed she wouldn't order a second drink. She did and there went my gas money for the rest of the week. At least I know she didn't marry me for my money.

However, if  the question is “Is this a profession, and as such, today, should there be a bare minimum requirement of a college education in order to be hired at a tier one firm”, I’d have to say “yes”.

But don't you also think that if there is such a bare minimum (and I don't disagree that there should be some educational competence or equivilancy testing done)the college degree should have some sort of relevance to the profession?  This is why a Dr. of Psycology isn't doing open heart transplants.  A degree in Art, with the ability to throw some nice pots and create glazes from scratch, is nice: but how does that make a person more qualified to be a financial advisor than perhaps someone who has passed the Series 7, 65, ChLU, CFA etc without a college degree as a Dietician or Creative Writer?

[quote=babbling looney]

However, if the question is “Is this a profession, and as such, today, should there be a bare minimum requirement of a college education in order to be hired at a tier one firm”, I’d have to say “yes”.

But don't you also think that if there is such a bare minimum (and I don't disagree that there should be some educational competence or equivilancy testing done)the college degree should have some sort of relevance to the profession?

No, the college degree minimum is to ensure some sort of broad-based liberal arts education and a proven ability to complete a degree, not advisor specific skills, and I say this as an econ major. The time for profession specific education, say a CFP or equivalent, is after the hiring.

"... but how does that make a person more qualified to be a financial advisor than perhaps someone who has passed the Series 7, 65, ChLU, CFA etc without a college degree as a Dietician or Creative Writer?"

I'm talking about new hires being required to have a degree, not people already in the profession that have advanced their skills specific to being an advisor.

[quote=mikebutler222]

If the question is "Are people without college degrees uniformly too stupid to make it in this business" the answer is an emphatic “no”.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 If the question is “Are there people around today in this business that lack a college degree but bring much to the table on behalf of their clients?” my answer would be a solid “yes”.

If the question is “A decade or more ago was a college degree considered much more than the mere threshold of education that it’s widely viewed as today?”, again, I’d answer “yes”.

However, if  the question is “Is this a profession, and as such, today, should there be a bare minimum requirement of a college education in order to be hired at a tier one firm”, I’d have to say “yes”.

I have no intention f insulting anyone, and I don’t care to swap stories about the industrious non-college graduates I’ve known or the abject failures with college degrees that I’ve come across. Those weren’t questions on my above list, and obviously I agree that examples of both exist.

A final question, “Does being on the same side of a heated issue as Put bother you, especially given the fact that some of the people that you respect here are on the other side” my answer is “Yes, yes, and yes again”.

[/quote]

MikeyB,  I agree and disagree.  Should there be higher standards...yes.  Does requiring a college degree meet those standards or do anything to 'truly' raise them?  Not much if you have a requirement that entrants to the business have verifyable successes and possess a reasonable skill set.  I have stated before that I think an apprenticeship type approach is a far better way to learn about the reality of this work.  College is pretty meaningless as an indicator of anything it seems these days....for many it's a great way to postpone becoming an adult.  Why is that desirable?

[quote=mikebutler222]

If the question is "Are people without college degrees uniformly too stupid to make it in this business" the answer is an emphatic “no”.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 If the question is “Are there people around today in this business that lack a college degree but bring much to the table on behalf of their clients?” my answer would be a solid “yes”.

If the question is “A decade or more ago was a college degree considered much more than the mere threshold of education that it’s widely viewed as today?”, again, I’d answer “yes”.

However, if  the question is “Is this a profession, and as such, today, should there be a bare minimum requirement of a college education in order to be hired at a tier one firm”, I’d have to say “yes”.

I have no intention f insulting anyone, and I don’t care to swap stories about the industrious non-college graduates I’ve known or the abject failures with college degrees that I’ve come across. Those weren’t questions on my above list, and obviously I agree that examples of both exist.

A final question, “Does being on the same side of a heated issue as Put bother you, especially given the fact that some of the people that you respect here are on the other side” my answer is “Yes, yes, and yes again”.

[/quote]

Even I have shared sides with Big Nasty Sleazy Flood , so don't feel too bad.  Even with our sometimes heated differences, you are a respectful human being (and you're damn good at doin' the twist too ).  Peace there Morgan Man.

I have two dogs.

One is a Golden Retriever with a Pedigree a mile long. I paid nearly $2000 for him. He was bred for beauty and intelligence. It has been said he is better behaved than most peoples' children.

The other is a 'rescue' dog. Mother was a sleaze of Lab who had an affair with a Pit Bull. I cannot teach this dog ANYTHING- however, he is quite creative and has taught himself to dive for rocks at the bottom of the pool, among other things. He cannot be trusted for long periods of time in the house, as he will pee on the floor.

The intelligent dog can be taught many things, but lacks creativity. The creative dog cannot be taught anything and sometimes pees on the floor.

I would not pay $2000 for a creative dog whose back ground is unknown. Yet, on the other hand, what value is the dog who has the ability of abstract thinking?

[quote=munytalks]

I have two dogs.

One is a Golden Retriever with a Pedigree a mile long. I paid nearly $2000 for him. He was bred for beauty and intelligence. It has been said he is better behaved than most peoples' children.

The other is a 'rescue' dog. Mother was a sleaze of Lab who had an affair with a Pit Bull. I cannot teach this dog ANYTHING- however, he is quite creative and has taught himself to dive for rocks at the bottom of the pool, among other things. He cannot be trusted for long periods of time in the house, as he will pee on the floor.

The intelligent dog can be taught many things, but lacks creativity. The creative dog cannot be taught anything and sometimes pees on the floor.

I would not pay $2000 for a creative dog whose back ground is unknown. Yet, on the other hand, what value is the dog who has the ability of abstract thinking?

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[quote=NASD Newbie][quote=tjc45]

I proceeded to go on to make several million dollars in my early and mid twenties only to lose all of it by my late twenties.

[/quote]

Don't you hate it when that happens.  That's my story too.

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[quote=NASD Newbie]

The request is not for yet another person who didn’t have what it takes to finish to step up and scream, “Stop talking about me…”

What I'm looking for is somebody who did have what it takes to complete their education to step up and claim that those were wasted years.

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