Contract Negotiation W/ UBS

You blew up your book and your firm, and you’re getting another chance. Get rid of the GD boat and be happy with what you get.

I never said I blew up the firm. I still have the firm and actually am selling it to my branch manager. I’m just burnt out on the volatility of the futures market. Clients blow up in high risk futures trades. Nothing I can do about that. Maybe you should get off your high horse and quit being a jerk. Being offered a job isn’t a “second chance”. Be happy with what you get? Obviously you are not a very big producer. Why should I ever settle? Are you recommending not getting the best pay possible?

Also Knucklehead…which you obviously are. The boat is paid for and fits nicely at the dock in front of my house. It’s always amazing to me how people like you jump on someone looking for help with nothing but negativity. Unfortunately for you… you will probably be bitter like this to the very end. Maybe some day you can grow up and not use the internet as your own little place to bash people you would never dream of bashing in person.

People who own boats that are docked at their homes refer to the boat being at the dock in the back of their house, not the front.

Nobody with waterside property talks about the water side as being the front.  The front of your house is the side with the street.

Just an observation from somebody with their BS sensor always on.

Someone who tells tales as tall as yours, Putsy, should be considered an authority on how to BS.

Another question.

Why are you not getting a more traditional "deal" to bring your practice to UBS?  Is your entire book gone?

Do you appreciate that gathering AUM is a far cry from running your own options and futures business?  How about customer complaints--how many of those do you have going--how about yet to come?

How much of your time is going to be wasted defending them?

To be honest I'm surprised you've gotten this far in the hiring process--could it be that they're talking to you out of curiosity and will then give you the news that there's nothing suitable after all?

You're surprised?  Why don't you tell us about your experiences at Human Resouces.

You know Put, you weren't a branch manager, nor human resources manager, so just WHAT are you qualified to discuss?  It seems like NOTHING to me.

[quote=Euroyen]I never said I blew up the firm. I still have the firm and actually am selling it to my branch manager. I’m just burnt out on the volatility of the futures market. Clients blow up in high risk futures trades. Nothing I can do about that. Maybe you should get off your high horse and quit being a jerk. Being offered a job isn’t a “second chance”. Be happy with what you get? Obviously you are not a very big producer. Why should I ever settle? Are you recommending not getting the best pay possible?[/quote]

If I may step aside from the food fight for a moment, there IS a relevant issue when it comes to the size of your initial pay package.  Common sense perhaps, but it is probably a bigger issue in our industry than others.

The bigger your initial pay package, the higher your BOM and perhaps even regional director’s expectations.  The greater their level of scrutiny on a quarterly, monthly, and even weekly basis.  Now that’s all well and good when you’re knocking the cover off the ball.  But, when you have a slow stretch-and you will-with revenues or new assets, it could bring an entirely unwelcome level of interference in the form of “help” or “advice” from your BOM.  This at a time when all you may really need to do is buckle down and refocus yourself on the strategies that have been working.

If you really think you have what it takes, you might be better off planning on taking a middle of the road pay package and try to build up to the point that you can get off the tit and on full commish as quickly as possible.

For what it’s worth!

The best way to let them know an 80K offer isn't going to cut it would be to turn it down if they offer that amount. One the other hand you're starting a new career. Like many other well established business people you are faced with supporting an existing high maintenance infrastructure while you make the transition. The only answer is; sometimes it takes two steps backwards to go one step forward. I realize that this is not happy news. However, it could take 3 to 5 years to replace a six figure income. That's a lot of net capital months, as I call them, and a lot of pressure that will more than likely work against your success.

Here's what I would do. Seriously tone down the lifestye to finance the new business. Think like a businessman. What would a smart businessman starting a new business do? Would they continue to live with negative cash flow or would they do something to get from red to black? We all know the answer. Buy a smaller non waterfront house. Get rid of the boat, there will be bigger, better boats in your future. Over the next five years you're not going to have time for it anyway, and paid for or not it's a money drain. Sell, the Bimmer and the Lexus LX470. Most jewelers will give you a fair price for the Rolex.

As you read this I know you're saying no way! Well, it's your future and I gotta tell you the buck 25 or so a year you were making is chump change compared to the future you can buy for yourself and your family. It would be a shame for you as well as them if you passed on an 80K offer because of a boat and a big house and all that go with them. Downsizing to move forward is a tough decision, business decisions often are. And you're taking a big risk. Well join the club. Many of us took big pay cuts to get here. And it may not pay off, you may fail, probably will fail, and getting back to where you are financially today could be a long way off if ever. Yep, all true. You need to make some hard chioces.

[quote=tjc45]

Here's what I would do. Seriously tone down the lifestye to finance the new business. Think like a businessman. What would a smart businessman starting a new business do? Would they continue to live with negative cash flow or would they do something to get from red to black? We all know the answer. Buy a smaller non waterfront house. Get rid of the boat, there will be bigger, better boats in your future. Over the next five years you're not going to have time for it anyway, and paid for or not it's a money drain. Sell, the Bimmer and the Lexus LX470. Most jewelers will give you a fair price for the Rolex.

[/quote]

Or you could be like Joeboy, leave UBS and move to a city where you know almost nobody to become an LPL guy.

On top of that you can take your "war chest" to tide you over in the rough times and spend it on a big house overlooking a country club golf course, join the club and take several hours off for golf lessons.

Or,

You can be like Newbie, spend all day on this forum telling tales of how much you don't know, never take a chance and go into business for yourself, and try and pass yourself off as an expert. 

[quote=csmelnix]

Or,

You can be like Newbie, spend all day on this forum telling tales of how much you don't know, never take a chance and go into business for yourself, and try and pass yourself off as an expert. 

[/quote]

What about your petulent outburst changes what I had to say?

Nice post, as usual, <SPAN =bold>tjc45.

Thanks for all of the feedback.  As for the layout of my house. Not that it matters but the backyard is on a shallow water lagoon. In front of the house is a deep water dock which is across the street. There is more value in me selling the business than bringing futures traders to UBS. In terms of compliance I have no customer complaints. I really wasn't asking for personal advice in terms of how I should arrange my lifestyle to subsidize a career change. Also If you read my post I said that my first year I made $125k. That was 8 years ago. My production is higher than that now. I have merely been asking for information on how to negotiate the best deal. For example is the split negotiable?

[quote=Euroyen]

Thanks for all of the feedback.  As for the layout of my house. Not that it matters but the backyard is on a shallow water lagoon. In front of the house is a deep water dock which is across the street. There is more value in me selling the business than bringing futures traders to UBS. In terms of compliance I have no customer complaints. I really wasn’t asking for personal advice in terms of how I should arrange my lifestyle to subsidize a career change. Also If you read my post I said that my first year I made $125k. That was 8 years ago. My production is higher than that now. I have merely been asking for information on how to negotiate the best deal. For example is the split negotiable?

It is possible to get off the grid, but I doubt that they'd offer you six figures plus an off the grid payout that was better than the standard deal.

Accelerated payouts have proven problematic too.  Incoming producer brings accounts, churns them all to death for as long as the accelerated payout lasts--clients get pissed, hire attorneys, "I promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" stories for several years.  No smile face.

What you're saying is you have no traditional business and a book full of clients that were blown up.

Depending on how recently they blew up you may still have significant compliance issues arise that will demand a lot of time.

It sounds like a nightmare to me, but then I just don't get it.

[quote=NASD Newbie][quote=tjc45]

Here's what I would do. Seriously tone down the lifestye to finance the new business. Think like a businessman. What would a smart businessman starting a new business do? Would they continue to live with negative cash flow or would they do something to get from red to black? We all know the answer. Buy a smaller non waterfront house. Get rid of the boat, there will be bigger, better boats in your future. Over the next five years you're not going to have time for it anyway, and paid for or not it's a money drain. Sell, the Bimmer and the Lexus LX470. Most jewelers will give you a fair price for the Rolex.

[/quote]

Or you could be like Joeboy, leave UBS and move to a city where you know almost nobody to become an LPL guy.

On top of that you can take your "war chest" to tide you over in the rough times and spend it on a big house overlooking a country club golf course, join the club and take several hours off for golf lessons.

[quote=NASD Newbie]

It is possible to get off the grid, but I doubt that they'd offer you six figures plus an off the grid payout that was better than the standard deal.

Accelerated payouts have proven problematic too.  Incoming producer brings accounts, churns them all to death for as long as the accelerated payout lasts--clients get pissed, hire attorneys, "I promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" stories for several years.  No smile face.

What you're saying is you have no traditional business and a book full of clients that were blown up.

Depending on how recently they blew up you may still have significant compliance issues arise that will demand a lot of time.

It sounds like a nightmare to me, but then I just don't get it.

[quote=joedabrkr] [quote=NASD Newbie]

It is possible to get off the grid, but I doubt that they'd offer you six figures plus an off the grid payout that was better than the standard deal.

Accelerated payouts have proven problematic too.  Incoming producer brings accounts, churns them all to death for as long as the accelerated payout lasts--clients get pissed, hire attorneys, "I promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" stories for several years.  No smile face.

What you're saying is you have no traditional business and a book full of clients that were blown up.

Depending on how recently they blew up you may still have significant compliance issues arise that will demand a lot of time.

It sounds like a nightmare to me, but then I just don't get it.

[/quote]

Euro-pay little heed to NASD Newbie....his limited expertise is overshadowed by his venemous jealousy of those who actually do the work(and make the money) in this industry.
[/quote]

Tell us Joeboy, what do you see as the positive.  If you were a UBS manager what about this guy's story makes you think he's worth a guarantee in excess of $125,000 per year?

Come on, tell us how you'd do it.

[quote=joedabrkr] [quote=NASD Newbie][quote=tjc45]

Here's what I would do. Seriously tone down the lifestye to finance the new business. Think like a businessman. What would a smart businessman starting a new business do? Would they continue to live with negative cash flow or would they do something to get from red to black? We all know the answer. Buy a smaller non waterfront house. Get rid of the boat, there will be bigger, better boats in your future. Over the next five years you're not going to have time for it anyway, and paid for or not it's a money drain. Sell, the Bimmer and the Lexus LX470. Most jewelers will give you a fair price for the Rolex.

[/quote]

Or you could be like Joeboy, leave UBS and move to a city where you know almost nobody to become an LPL guy.

On top of that you can take your "war chest" to tide you over in the rough times and spend it on a big house overlooking a country club golf course, join the club and take several hours off for golf lessons.

[/quote]

I continue to be flattered by how important I've become to you, Newbie!

The facts you describe-absent the nasty implications-are essentially correct, but the conclusions you draw from them couldn't be farther from reality.   You're like a blind man trying to describe an elephant but the only part you have your hands around so far is the trunk, so you think it's a snake.

I'm not inclined to break my anonymity, but suffice it to say the following:

1.)  The club has not only been a personal delight but a useful business tool as well.  Of course, you'd hardly know that because as a middle-management technocrat you didn't have any clients to entertain.  Too, all your 'networking' opportunities were fed to you by Daddy, the NASD, and the brokers at your firm who did the real work.

2.)  The war chest is hardly depleted.  In reality, my 'net capital' has grown every month for about 8-9 months in a row so far.

3.)  I grew up here, so I know plenty of folks.  Too, the club has been pretty helpful in meeting plenty of others who are nice potential clients.


[/quote]

Joe, you don't get it.  I don't believe you belong to that club.  Not only because I don't think you can afford it, but becasue I have too much respect for people who do go independent to believe that they would waste money on country club memberships and big houses along the fairway until they had established themselves.

I don't care how silver the silver spoon is---nobody would do that when they first went out on their own.

It defies the very idea of financial planning.

No it defies YOUR idea of financial planning.  Then again, I suppose it’s hard for you to conceive of it as you sit in your little studio apartment in Alphabet City typing emails on your IBM PS2 that you bought second-hand at the thrift store.

There is no silver spoon.

I don’t really care if you believe it or not, that’s the funniest part of all to me!!

[quote=NASD Newbie][quote=joedabrkr] [quote=NASD Newbie]

It is possible to get off the grid, but I doubt that they'd offer you six figures plus an off the grid payout that was better than the standard deal.

Accelerated payouts have proven problematic too.  Incoming producer brings accounts, churns them all to death for as long as the accelerated payout lasts--clients get pissed, hire attorneys, "I promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" stories for several years.  No smile face.

What you're saying is you have no traditional business and a book full of clients that were blown up.

Depending on how recently they blew up you may still have significant compliance issues arise that will demand a lot of time.

It sounds like a nightmare to me, but then I just don't get it.

[/quote]

Euro-pay little heed to NASD Newbie....his limited expertise is overshadowed by his venemous jealousy of those who actually do the work(and make the money) in this industry.
[/quote]

Tell us Joeboy, what do you see as the positive.  If you were a UBS manager what about this guy's story makes you think he's worth a guarantee in excess of $125,000 per year?

Come on, tell us how you'd do it.

[quote=joedabrkr]

I don't necessarily think he's worth the guarantee.  It would be a very unusual case and I would have to see many more facts to determine that.

My point, actually, is that what little useful advice you may have to offer is so thoroughly drenched in bile and arrogance as to be rendered useless!
[/quote]

If you had been in a boot camp would you have whined, "Sergeant, if I have to get up so early I'll be sleepy in the afternooooooon."

I know what I am talking about, I have done things that you will never have the opportunity to do.

Why should I be humble just because not being makes me seem arrogant?

Like Babe Ruth (I think) said, "It's not bragging when you can do it."

[quote=NASD Newbie]

[quote=joedabrkr]

I don’t necessarily think he’s worth the guarantee.  It would be a very unusual case and I would have to see many more facts to determine that.

My point, actually, is that what little useful advice you may have to offer is so thoroughly drenched in bile and arrogance as to be rendered useless!
[/quote]

I know what I am talking about, I have done things that you will never have the opportunity to do.

Why should I be humble just because not being makes me seem arrogant?

Like Babe Ruth (I think) said, "It's not bragging when you can do it."

I never said my book was blown up. I said that I’m tired of having clients blow up. Some clients blow up. There is nothing I can do about that. These clients trade futures and will remain with the company. I will not have time If I transition to stare at a screen all day and trade futures. Thank you Joe for the info on the split. NASD do youever have anything positive to say? Is this your little place to try and be a big shot?  I think Joe is right. It must be VERY SMALL and get very LITTLE use.

[quote=Euroyen]I never said my book was blown up. I said that I'm tired of having clients blow up. Some clients blow up. There is nothing I can do about that. These clients trade futures and will remain with the company. I will not have time If I transition to stare at a screen all day and trade futures. Thank you Joe for the info on the split. NASD do youever have anything positive to say? Is this your little place to try and be a big shot?  I think Joe is right. It must be VERY SMALL and get very LITTLE use.[/quote]

I'm so sorry.  You're right, you have a lot to offer a traditional brokerage firm.

I think you should go in and demand $150,000 for three years, and to be 50% higher than the prevailing grid for five years.

UBS would not be interested in spending that money on some guy over at Smith Barney who would bring an established book with him.

Get out there and get the job Tiger.

[quote=Euroyen]

Thanks for all of the feedback.  As for the layout of my house. Not that it matters but the backyard is on a shallow water lagoon. In front of the house is a deep water dock which is across the street. There is more value in me selling the business than bringing futures traders to UBS. In terms of compliance I have no customer complaints. I really wasn't asking for personal advice in terms of how I should arrange my lifestyle to subsidize a career change. Also If you read my post I said that my first year I made $125k. That was 8 years ago. My production is higher than that now. I have merely been asking for information on how to negotiate the best deal. For example is the split negotiable?

[/quote]

NASD was just bustin on you about the dock. That's because for most of us, our docks are in the back yard. Well except for INDYONE who lives on a point where a river meets a bay and is practically surrounded by water. Which is a good thing since he just traded the old Bayliner for a new Ocean 60. He docks on the side of the house. Then there's NASD, who winters on the Intercoastal in SE Florida. He keeps the exact location a secret, but some of know it's near Jupiter because he's a big Burt Reynolds fan. He sails a Pacific Seacraft 37 to the Bahamas for his off time. He docks it behind the house. Same goes for his Brielle NJ home. He bought disgraced stock swindler Bob Brennan's house, knocked it down as payback to the ripped off, and then built a modest by Brielle standards 6000sqft cape. He keeps a Boston Whaler Conquest 33 on a lift out back for the weekly runs to the Baltimore Canyon for tuna fishing. Nice setup, only two miles from the Manasquan inlet! JOEDABRKR isn't a boater, he lives in a country club community where lazy summer evenings find Joe working on his scratch handicap. He can go from office to practice tee in about a minute. What a way to prospect! Nice! MIKEBUTLER is a part time boater. He flies his A-36 Bonanza to Lake Powell where he rents a houseboat for the summer. He keeps a BW Montauk for fishing there but the real fun is a pair Seadoo PWCs. Oh, and yeah, Mike keeps the plane, Mike, correct me if I'm wrong, in a hanger garage on the side of his house. Of course the A36 doesn't compare to his ocaasional F-16 weekend ride, but it gets him around to most of the ranchers in his book. BABBLINGLOONEY also lives in a beautiful lakeside community in the SW. She keeps a twin Merc 250 powered Fountain 31 Sportfish on a lift behind the house, or to be precise, behind the pool house. She works hard and plays hard. Her serious need for speed is fueled by her schedule. Saturday morings are for work, but Saturday afternoons are for fishing. With 800 squre miles of lake out back, you can see why she has a GOFAST. SCRIM has a nice kayak but, at the rate this kid is building his business he'll own the biggest boat of the bunch in a few years. Did I leave anyone out?

Not that it matters, the truth is, no one really cares about your dock.

As for biz, if you don't ask you don't get, so ask for what you want. Yet, it's doubtful any firm will go beyond scale. Most likely you won't get the top of the scale. Not because you're not worth it, because that's the way the suits think. As you know, as a futures trader, knowledge is key. The suits know that your chances of failing are 3x your chance of succeeding. As a futures trader how much would you lay on that probability? And as good as you may be, to them you're just another number.

If hired your salary will start to drop off in year two and the move to 100% commish will be complete by the end of year two/mid year three. At that time it's all you. Most likely it will take you five years to reach production levels capable of yielding a six figure income. You could do it sooner. the fastest I've ever seen was two years, definately the exception. So plan on four or five years of sub six figure income. If you can't sustain yourself on that kind of income in the beginning then for you it's straight head keep walking. This isn't going to work for you. There is big money to be made in this biz, but the beinning is definately a tough gig. Especially true for high income professionals such as yourself who are accustomed to a high income. It can be humbling.

[quote=tjc45]NASD was just bustin on you about the dock. That's because for most of us, our docks are in the back yard. Well except for INDYONE who lives on a point where a river meets a bay and is practically surrounded by water.[/quote]

...You don't know how close to the truth you are...especially when we get a lot of rain.

I have no boat though...sadly, I don't know when I'd find the time to use it...

I'm going to put tjc45's post next to my phone when I start my new career in this business in November. 

Just don't ask me what firm yet. 

[quote=Indyone]

[quote=tjc45]NASD was just bustin on you about the dock. That’s because for most of us, our docks are in the back yard. Well except for INDYONE who lives on a point where a river meets a bay and is practically surrounded by water.[/quote]

...You don't know how close to the truth you are...especially when we get a lot of rain.

I have no boat though...sadly, I don't know when I'd find the time to use it...

The two greatest days in a boat owners life–the day he buys it, and the day he sells it.

Newbie, how  about this one?  If it flies, floats or f@#%s; it’s better to rent than own. <!–
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[quote=NASD Newbie]The two greatest days in a boat owners life–the day he buys it, and the day he sells it.[/quote]

The two greatest days in a wirehouse broker’s life…the day he gets hired, and the day he leaves to GO INDY! 

[quote=NASD Newbie]The two greatest days in a boat owners life--the day he buys it, and the day he sells it.[/quote]

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm trying to get to the second of those days by selling a Boston Whaler. Of course then I'm gonna do something really stupid and buy another boat.

The best boat I own is a canoe. No trouble, and relaxing. Well, most days.

[quote=tjc45]

[quote=NASD Newbie]The two greatest days in a boat owners life–the day he buys it, and the day he sells it.[/quote]

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm trying to get to the second of those days by selling a Boston Whaler. Of course then I'm gonna do something really stupid and buy another boat.

The best boat I own is a canoe. No trouble, and relaxing. Well, most days.

[quote=tjc45]

The best boat I own is a canoe. No trouble, and relaxing. Well, most days.

[/quote]

When I was a teenager I spent a lot of time with canoes.

One of the joyful memories of my life is moving a canoe across a lake by standing on the gunwales and bouncing up and down.

Funny how certain words bring back memories.

The closest I come to living next to a body of water? When my septic tank overflows.

Favorite septic tank ad slogan:

"We're number 1 in the number 2 business."

[quote=NASD Newbie][quote=tjc45]

The best boat I own is a canoe. No trouble, and relaxing. Well, most days.

[/quote]

When I was a teenager I spent a lot of time with canoes.

One of the joyful memories of my life is moving a canoe across a lake by standing on the gunwales and bouncing up and down.

Funny how certain words bring back memories.

[/quote]

It was my memories of canoing that led my to buy a canoe as an impulse purchase about ten years ago. I was buying socks or something at REI and they had a canoe displayed right there so I bought it. Absolutely some of the best recreational dollars I've ever spent. Since then we've purchased two more canoes and three sea kayaks. The sea kayaks are great for the bays and larger water here in Jersey and in Florida. The canoes are for paddling our Pine Barrens rivers here in Jersey and for the Adirondacks. Might try the Boundry waters in a year or two.

We've had some interesting times with these boats. A fews years ago I got sucked from the gulf side to the ocean side while sea kayaking across the Fiesta Key cut in the Keys. I was totally out of control. I could not free the boat from the current. Tide going one way taking me with it, with a strong wind blowing in the opposite direction. This created huge haystacks of standing water. Well, from a sitting on the water perspective. It was white water which is something you don't want to see when you're in a sea kayak. I was afraid I'd get dumped and then seperated from the boat. And that almost happened. To add to the excitement, the day before we over flew the cut in an ultralight airplane. The pilot asked if I could see the sharks and then pointed down. There were lots of them. Some nurse sharks and some bulls sharks. This was on my mind as I was going with the flow. I did all I could to keep the boat from plowing into one of the bridge abutments as I got sucked under U.S. 1. Amazingly, once on the other side of the bridge things calmed down and I was able to paddle out of the current. I had to wait a couple hours for the tide to equalize before I could go back. I spent a lot of that time watching sharks swim under the boat hoping all that research about sharks being attracted to yellow was wrong. I was wearing a yellow PFD. I used my cell phone to call my wife and order the kids out of the Gulf. She took them to the pool. Until that day I use to swim and snorkel in the cuts at Fiesta and Sugarloaf Keys all the time. You don't know what you don't know, but what you don't know can hurt you. Or at least get you sucked under Route 1.

Canoeing the Pine Barrens is a lot more tame. Thankfully!