Bernie Ebbers
Well I see that Bernie Ebbers got thirty years.
So, we’ve got a guy who will spend the rest of his life in prison, and
tens of thousands of people whose lives were wrecked by what happened
with World Com.
I have pity for those who lost their jobs and have been unable to find
work–I suppose there are a lot of them, people with skills that
transfer virtually nowhere.
There is the other side of my point of view that says that it’s their
fault, they are the nimrod who did not get an education and/or develop
skills that made the employable in another company or another industry.
Who I have absolutely zero pity for are the fools who rode the stock
into the ground. People who fall in love with stocks are
morons–and people who do not diversify their holdings are morons
raised to a power.
From time to time the broadcast media focuses its bully microphone on
some schlub who used to be a millionaire who is now eating cat food as
if we’re all suppose to feel sorry for them.
Why? Whose fault is it that they didn’t know how to set a stop?
But tonight Rosco will turn to Ethel and say, "Look they got the bastard, he’s going to the pen for thirty years."
She’ll say, "That’s right, serves the SOB right for what he did to us."
Then he’ll say what he’ll say every day for the rest of his life, “Hey
woman, you’re getting more than your share of the cat food…”
Put:
This is where you and I part company. I disagree with a blanket characterization of "morons". I am sure a few of the people who bit the dust with Worldcom, Enron and their ilk were "morons". However, the vast majority of these people were law-abiding trusting souls who put their faith in Wall Street research reports, company management, the boards of directors, auditing firms, their brokerage firm and their broker. The fact is that all of these entities let the investor down. Now I suppose that the guy who made an unsolicited trade through Ameritrade can't blame a broker, but there are still a lot of culprits running around.
On another matter, and this one really irritates me. There are huge numbers of people in this country who were not lucky enough to win at the genetic lottery and either be born intelligent or wealthy. These are the people who went off to fight in WWII, Korea, Vietnam and Iraq so that you can sit all cozy in your Manhattan flat and exercize your freedom of speech rights by calling them morons; just because they they didn't have the experience to develop a sophisticated asset allocation strategy with puts and calls to hedge their positions. They went long and stayed long because they are the backbone of America and Americans go long.
I meet people everyday that get up everyday, go to work, work hard, don't make waves, pay their taxes, raise their children, go to church and try to save a little money for retirement. They got shipped overseas to fight in a war, came home to their wife and children and just didn't have the resources to go to college for four years so they could meet your educational standards. They deserve far better treatment than they received or will ever receive. These "morons" have made everything we do possible.
While your taking your nightly stroll in Central Park, why don't you take a look around you and appreciate the people who really make our economic system work, the doormen, the taxi drivers, policemen, store clerks, construction workers and the gray haired "morons" of the greatest generation sitting on the park benches. By the way, they're not known as the greatest generation because they are all Bernard Baruchs.
Pardon my rant, but the world does not spin around New York, Wall Street or our petty little economic enterprises. It spins around those who really give meaning to life. Those "morons" you indict.
Well said Dash…And Put deosnt take nightly walks in Central Park, its too far from his shack on the Lower East Side. He trolls the internet looking for attention…
[quote=dashampersand]
Pardon my rant, but the world does not spin around New York, Wall Street or our petty little economic enterprises. It spins around those who really give meaning to life. Those "morons" you indict.
[/quote]
If you have your entire net worth tied up in a single stock–even if
it’s where you work–you have to be a moron. How bright does somebody
have to be in order to know that the stock market can go down?
Do you believe the members of the Greatest Generation are aware that stock prices can drop?
Just how smart, how educated, does somebody have to be to know that?
You sound like the apolgists for the minorities who whine that the
reason they don’t finish fourth grade is because they don’t understand
the importance of education.
I’m sorry but I refuse to believe that there are people who don’t know
that the way out of poverty is to go to school–and the way to avoid
losing everything in the stock market is to not have too much in it,
and to have a plan to sell your shares if something happens.
How bright does somebody have to be to ask a broker, “Tell me, is there
a way I can enter an order to sell my share if they drop to a certain
price?” That does not require a rocket scientist, and to excuse their
stupidity by saying that they are the backbone of America and above
criticism is to play the role of an apologist for stupidity.
Elsewhere in your thread you listed every military action that anybody
could have possibily been invovled in and still be alive–among them
was Viet Nam. I am sixty–I did not get my Masters for a number of
years after I left SMU. What do you imagine I might have been doing in
the late 1960s?
The idea that having been in a war zone excuses one from making stupid mistakes later in life is specious.
What is also ridiculous is the idea that there is anybody in this
country who was denied a college education due to lack of funding.
Most of the greatest generation were in the service and were eligible
for the GI Bill–as has every veteran since.
Among younger people–since the draft lottery–there has been an
abundance of student loans and scholarships. It’s apolgizing again to
believe that those who do not have college educations don’t have them
because they couldn’t afford them.
I am not saying that people who are not bright enough to go to college
could have degrees–but any person who was bright enough could have
gotten the funding.
So, the conclusion is this–if you don’t have a degree it is becuase
you were unmotivated and/or too stupid to know the importance of it.
It was not because you didn’t have the money.
Again, I have no pity for fools who held WorldCom stock down to zero.
Let them eat their cat food and tell themselves, “I am too stupid to
know how to take care of myself which is why I am doing this.”
There is a saying in Wall Street–“Don’t argue with the tape.” I don’t
care if every analyst in the street was saying that WorldCom was a buy
if it’s dropping and you’re “getting killed” you have nobody to blame
but yourself.
Now, let’s ask a philosophical question. Should somebody who thinks
like I do be allowed to sit on arbitration panels–or should such
panels be closed to men and women who are personal responsibility
zealots?
Nice post Dash. I have found Put's wealth of knowledge impressive. He has been attacked on this board and has the right to defend himself. But when he call those who may be less fortunate and in need "morons", I have lost respect. People make mistakes. Bad things happen to good people. No one can control everything that happens to them. Some people do have to eat cat food or anything else to make ends meet. Or to feed their children. Whatever happened to kindness, humility and charity. oh wait...I may be on the wrong website!!!!!
Peace everyone.
[quote=dashampersand]
While your taking your nightly stroll in
Central Park, why don’t you take a look around you and appreciate the
people who really make our economic system work, the doormen, the taxi
drivers, policemen, store clerks, construction workers and the gray
haired “morons” of the greatest generation sitting on the park
benches. By the way, they’re not known as the greatest generation
because they are all Bernard Baruchs.
[/quote]
How does a doorman make our economic system work–as best I can tell they make the door work.
I know, I know–they spend money and that starts up the mulitiplier
effect and blah, blah, blah. But I assure you that the econonmy
will not rise or fall on the spending habits of my doormen and
conceirges–even at Christmas bonus time.
To the extent that the economy is driven by individuals it is driven by
the upper middle class who is out buying homes, running up their credit
cards, buying cars and the like.
It is not driven by the by the hour types who you seem to
celebrate. If you’re prospecting among the doormen you need to
aim higher.
Put:
This afternoon after I wrote my original post, I had a man come to my office to do some business. He is 48 years old and a factory worker. He is not college educated and works a line job 55 hours a week. He plans to work until he is at least 70. He wears old clothes and looks bedraggled. He definitely does not speak the Queen's English.
However, he came to my office to open 529 plans for the five (5) special needs children that he and his wife have adopted. He put his absolute trust in me.
You say that I need to aim higher. There could be no higher aim than to serve clients such as this.
[quote=dashampersand]
Put:
This afternoon after I wrote my original post, I had a man come to my office to do some business. He is 48 years old and a factory worker. He is not college educated and works a line job 55 hours a week. He plans to work until he is at least 70. He wears old clothes and looks bedraggled. He definitely does not speak the Queen's English.
However, he came to my office to open 529 plans for the five (5) special needs children that he and his wife have adopted. He put his absolute trust in me.
You say that I need to aim higher. There could be no higher aim than to serve clients such as this.
[/quote]If you're a priest I would agree. Are you a priest?
[quote=dashampersand]
This afternoon after I wrote my original
post, I had a man come to my office to do some business. He is 48
years old and a factory worker. He is not college educated and
works a line job 55 hours a week. He plans to work until he is at
least 70. He wears old clothes and looks bedraggled. He
definitely does not speak the Queen’s English.
What about this guy is worthy of pointing to and telling somebody else, "You should try to be like him?"
Would you hope your own son ends up as a 48 year old schlub working 55 hours a week doing repetitive work?
Put Trader put a lid on it will yas. Stick your nose outside of the smelly City and you'll see the backbone of the U.S.A. You don' realize it but you're a product of the lucky sperm club. Wake up and smell the coffee.
[quote=derekgaddy]Put Trader put a lid on it will yas. Stick your nose outside of the smelly City and you'll see the backbone of the U.S.A. You don' realize it but you're a product of the lucky sperm club. Wake up and smell the coffee.[/quote]
Derekgaddy, if you want to really piss of puttyndacrack, ask him what the theory was behind the '33 Act.
He'll waffle, write some lengthy nonresponsive diatribe, and then try to counter with a red herring or straw man.
Insert puttyndacrack's response here:
[quote=derekgaddy]
Put Trader put a lid on it will yas. Stick your
nose outside of the smelly City and you’ll see the backbone of the
U.S.A. You don’ realize it but you’re a product of the lucky sperm
club. Wake up and smell the coffee.
[/quote]
Ever since Mayor Guliani came to office the city has been much much cleaner–you should come visit.
As for the lucky sperm club–I have never denied that I was lucky to
have a father who taught me to stand up straight, look everybody in the
eye, and to be ambitious.
But those of you who whine that there is a lucky sperm club are simply
denying the truth in the adage, "The harder I worked the luckier I got."
I am where I am in life because I work sixty plus hours a week utilizing my brain and my education.
If you had a huge position in a stock would you be interested in ways to avoid losing money in that position?
I’ll assume your answer is yes–and then ask why you are willing to excuse less basic curiosity.
What about this guy is worthy of pointing out!!! He has adopted special needs children and is trying to help them. Thinking and caring about someone more than you care about yourself is not admirable??? Helping those who are not as fortunate is not admirable??? What am I missing here???
[quote=adoluap]What about this guy is worthy of pointing out???!!!! He has adopted special needs children and is trying to help them. Thinking and caring about someone more than you care about yourself is not admirable??? Helping those who are not as fortunate is not admirable??? What am I missing here???[/quote]
puttyndacrack is a failed planner. One of the symptoms of a failed planner is a holier-than-thou attitude when faced with anything that resembles work or requires sweat (like prospecting, or dealing with rank and file Americans that make up the majority of the population).
Unlike the newbys who often fake it until the make it, puttndacrack exhibits false confidence to make up for his complete lack of competence.
Right now he's headed to the public library to look up the theory behind the '33 Act, because he can't find what he's looking for using the only resource he has to back up his unwarranted pomposity: A search engine.
A Top Gun Producer is a catalytic, empathic, persuasive agent of positive change in the lives of their clients.
Notice the complete lack of empathy of puttyndacrack?
He's definitely not catalytic, spending all his days posting on here, and he can't persuade anyone to even believe his lies, and the only positive change he could contribute to this forum would be his absence from it.
He has no clients. Only fantasies.
[quote=Put Trader]
What about this guy is worthy of pointing to and telling somebody else, "You should try to be like him?"
Would you hope your own son ends up as a 48 year old schlub working 55 hours a week doing repetitive work?
[/quote]
Govenor Put-ius of Jewdaya (Circa 30 Ainno Duminme): "What about this
carpenter (turns to his Bichon Nicosia and whispers "Tell me again,
which one of the Gods do they say is his father…you can never tell
with these types ~high pitch giggle~) is worthy of pointing to and
telling somebody else, “You should try to be like him?”
“Would you hope your own son ends up an old (mortality tables need
adjusting) schlub working 55 hours a week doing repetive works?”
(An oil lamp lights above the Gov P’s head) - I have an Option!
"He's definitely not catalytic, spending all his days posting on here, and he can't persuade anyone to even believe his lies, and the only positive change he could contribute to this forum would be his absence from it."
Roger, great post bud. That comment sums it all up. What I cannot believe is that Put doesnt go away. For every person who feels he has a 'positive influence' on this forum, there are 25 others who wish he spent his time over at Yahoo's finance forum... Go ahead Put, go check it out, and then stay over there.... Buh Bye...
Is their any way we could have a poll or petition advocating that he be banned from the forum?
Arguing with Put is like running in the Special Olympics. Sure, you can beat him every time, but when it’s over all you’ve done is beat a retard.
[quote=Coag]Is their any way we could have a poll or petition advocating that he be banned from the forum? [/quote]
Groag, it would be a stretch to put Dean P. Webber on probation. I
think the big DP would be a definite nonconsent during any internal
probing or submission to double blind polling tecniques. You might want
to bring a set of your gloves in case it gets ugly during the
debriefing. (Looks like the Dean and Goag have been over-do’ing the
Special K)
You guys up for a toga party?
I disagree with just about everything Put says, but…
A person would have to be a complete idiot to have all of his or her
money in one stock. If they don’t understand that a stock
can go down and they can lose everything, then they should not be
buying stocks, they should keep their money at the bank in a savings
account. I wouldn’t go as far as Put did and say I don’t feel bad
for them; I do feel bad for them. But these people shouldn’t
blame others (Bernie Ebbers) for their ignorance.
However, the brokers who had their clients so heavily positioned in one
security should be taken out back and shot in the face.
[quote=Scorpio]However, the brokers who had their clients so heavily positioned in one security should be taken out back and shot in the face. [/quote]
Anybody remember that broker with USB that did his own research, noticed some red flags, and tried to get his clients to reduce their ENRON exposure?
USB and the NASD proceeded to black list him, under the guise of their archaic rules.
I think the people at USB and the NASD that did that to this honorable broker should be taken out front, on to a public lawn, and burned at the stake.
You are thinking of UBS.
[quote=blarmston]You are thinking of UBS.[/quote]
You're right. I've got USB cables on the brain today. Thanks.
[quote=Roger Thornhill]
[quote=Scorpio]However, the brokers who had
their clients so heavily positioned in one security should be taken out
back and shot in the face. [/quote]
Anybody remember that broker with USB that did his own research, noticed some red flags, and tried to get his clients to reduce their ENRON exposure?
USB and the NASD proceeded to black list him, under the guise of their archaic rules.
I think the people at USB and the NASD that did that to this honorable broker should be taken out front, on to a public lawn, and burned at the stake.
[/quote]Tell us, genius, what did the NASD do to the broker? For that matter what did PaineWebber do to him, other than fire him?
Do you suggest that firms be barred from terminating a broker who sends what appears to be a research report without approval of the firm's research department?
[quote=Roger Thornhill]
[quote=Coag]Is their any way we could have a poll or petition advocating that he be banned from the forum? [/quote]
If you go over to www.topgunproducers.com there's a poll about him.
[/quote]And to think that there are those who do not believe that I am King of this forum. Damn, I'm King of the Internet, everybody knows Putnam Trader!
Put Rules!
[quote=Philo Kvetch]Arguing with Put is like running in the Special
Olympics. Sure, you can beat him every time, but when it’s over
all you’ve done is beat a retard.[/quote]
OK Punk, take a shot. Introduce a topic that you think you have any skills at and let’s go at it.
For about twenty years my wife and I have been very active in the New
York Special Olympics–there is nothing, as in NOTHING, more rewarding
than spending time officiating at Olympics events.
It takes a special type of schidtass to mock them.
I’m not mocking THEM, I’m mocking YOU. You’re a lying sh*theel, and everyone including you knows it. So ESAD.
Refering to a Special Olympian as a retard is not mocking them?
Nope. Referring to YOU as a retard is.
Besides, a dirtbag like you couldn't find your way to the Special Olympics with a map, a compass and a native guide.
[quote=adoluap]What about this guy is worthy of pointing
out!!! He has adopted special needs children and is trying to
help them. Thinking and caring about someone more than you care
about yourself is not admirable??? Helping those who are not as
fortunate is not admirable??? What am I missing here???[/quote]
Would it make more sense to save money for something other than college when dealing with “special needs” children?
Why not? Your folks did it for you.
[quote=Philo Kvetch]
Nope. Referring to YOU as a retard is.
[/quote]
I am hardly a retard, so the only thing you could have been referring to is the Special Olympians.
People like you have no place in polite society. It must really suck to be you.
You're not a retard? You certainly behave like one, at least here.
As to being me, you couldn't in your wildest dreams hope to do half of the things I've done.
You certainly must envy me from afar (and below!).
[quote=Philo Kvetch]
You’re not a retard? You certainly behave like one, at least here.
As to being me, you couldn't in your wildest dreams hope to do half of the things I've done.
You certainly must envy me from afar (and below!).
[/quote]Yeah, I've spent my life jealous of morons. What have you done, been to both Disneyland and Disney World?
As a matter of fact, yes. Along with a few other things that you're incapable of doing or even understanding.
So 'long, Chump. I'm off to passtimes that are far more interesting than chatting with an imbicile.
[quote=Starka]
As a matter of fact, yes. Along with a few other things that you’re incapable of doing or even understanding.
So 'long, Chump. I'm off to passtimes that are far more interesting than chatting with an imbicile.
[/quote]Why damn, if Starka and Philo Kevetch are not one and the same.
Two, two, two cretins in one!
Wrong again, little boy!
If you have your entire net worth tied up in a single stock--even if it's where you work--you have to be a moron. How bright does somebody have to be in order to know that the stock market can go down?
Moron may be a bit harsh, but I have to agree here a bit; with the codicil that the broker who didn't educate his client about a stop loss order or diversifyiing assets has been remiss in his duties. Individuals who, on their own, left huge amounts of assets in any one company, may not be morons, but certainly can be classifed as stupid, lazy and greedy.
What is also ridiculous is the idea that there is anybody in this country who was denied a college education due to lack of funding. Most of the greatest generation were in the service and were eligible for the GI Bill--as has every veteran since.
Among younger people--since the draft lottery--there has been an abundance of student loans and scholarships. It's apolgizing again to believe that those who do not have college educations don't have them because they couldn't afford them.
I agree that almost (notice I said almost) anyone who has the drive and determination to succeed can find the money, and the counseling to obtain the money, to get a good college education. However, I differ here from Put in that I don't think a degree is the "be all, end all" of success. I know many, very successful entrepenuers, who are not blessed with a degree. It is the drive, determination and native wit that make them a success.
Now, let's ask a philosophical question. Should somebody who thinks like I do be allowed to sit on arbitration panels--or should such panels be closed to men and women who are personal responsibility zealots?
I think you mean anti personal responsibility zealots. People need to take responsibility for their own actions or lack of actions. There is a culture of victimhood in our society, and too many people that are so politically correct that they don't want to face down the needy, greedy "victims" for fear of seeming hard.
So, part of the debacle can be attributed to greed and ignorance on the part of the investor. Part can be attributed to lazy inattentiveness and fiduciary failure on the part of the broker. However, the biggest portion of the blame should be and rightly is attributed to Bernie Ebbers and he deserves every minute of jail time he serves.
P.S. You couldn't give me enough money to set foot in New York City. OK that was figurative.....possibly I could force myself for enough cash.....but I swear, I wouldn't enjoy it.
[quote=Put Trader]I am hardly a retard...[/quote]
Using your previous posts as evidence, everyone with an IQ anywhere North of the temperature of warm spit disagrees with you.
[quote=babbling looney]
P.S. You couldn’t give me enough money to
set foot in New York City. OK that was figurative…possibly I
could force myself for enough cash…but I swear, I wouldn’t enjoy
it.
Would you go to London? Tokyo? Paris? Hong Kong?
[quote=babbling looney]
If you have your entire net worth tied
up in a single stock–even if it’s where you work–you have to be
a moron. How bright does somebody have to be in order to know
that the stock market can go down?
Moron may be a bit harsh, but I have to agree here a bit; with the codicil that the broker who didn't educate his client about a stop loss order or diversifyiing assets has been remiss in his duties. Individuals who, on their own, left huge amounts of assets in any one company, may not be morons, but certainly can be classifed as stupid, lazy and greedy.
[/quote]As is so typical it's the harshness of my intentionally chosen words that ring people's chimes.
"They're not morons, they're merely stupid, lazy and greedy."
At what point does somebody cross over from being stupid to being a moron? Is "fool" too gentle, but moron too tough? How about "cretin"--is that reserved for some plodding giant with a dulll stare?
Let's take Mr. and Mrs. Jones, who in 1999 were sitting on $1 million in WorldCom market value. Within a year or two--I don't have the dates engraved on my eyelids--that $1 million was gone.
Some evil stock broker did not get it, Bernie Ebbers did not even get it--it was just gone.
There are lots of things that Mr. and Mrs. Jones could have done--diversify, but puts, write calls, place stop orders, gift to their church.
In the Jones family there was probably one of them who was calling the shots regarding the $1 million--trust me there are days when they wander aimlessly muttering to themselves, "I'm a phucking moron."
Agreeing with them is perfectly acceptable. Part of what is wrong with this society is the frenzy to be "sensitive." Don't call somebody a moron when all they are is world class stupid is a prime example of nonsense.
[quote=babbling looney]
What is also ridiculous is the idea
that there is anybody in this country who was denied a college
education due to lack of funding. Most of the greatest
generation were in the service and were eligible for the GI Bill–as
has every veteran since.
Among younger people–since the draft
lottery–there has been an abundance of student loans and
scholarships. It’s apolgizing again to believe that those who do
not have college educations don’t have them because they couldn’t
afford them.
I agree that almost (notice I said almost) anyone who has the drive and determination to succeed can find the money, and the counseling to obtain the money, to get a good college education. However, I differ here from Put in that I don't think a degree is the "be all, end all" of success. I know many, very successful entrepenuers, who are not blessed with a degree. It is the drive, determination and native wit that make them a success.
[/quote]You've already told the assembled that you do not have a degree--so I suggest your point of view carries a huge degree of prejudice.
Regardless--would you advise your own son or daughter to finish school?
Do you believe that your clients believe that you have a degree?
Do you believe that no job can take on the legitimate status of a profession without an education requirement component? Several weeks ago you said that you thought there should be a specific course of study, like there is for accounting and law, and I don't disagree with that. There is to a degree--analysts, for example, get degrees that are industry specific.
The fact is that this is a sales job. But it is big league sales and as such it should have big league requirements. My best friend sells huge phone systems--thousands of extensions, data and voice simultaneously, really technical stuff. Over the years I have heard him tell several people who were asking on behalf of themselves or a child, "No, the firm will not even consider a resume submitted by somebody without a college education."
Why should Wall Street be different than a phone vendor--we're selling a hell of a lot more than an agreement to deliver a check if the buyer wrecks their car, gets sick, or dies.
With full knowledge of how harsh it is--you should not have been allowed to become a registered representative. We don't know each other from Adam, but from what I read you are bright and professional so Wall Street would have missed a good one had you been denied.
But in bending the rules to allow somebody like you in we also end up with the several morons who will read this.
Some will silently seeth but there will be others who will actually put fingers to keys and post some sort of "Stop talking about me!"
The soul who was referring to me as a retard is a perfect example. A stupid little boy--uneducated and unrefined--who has not business being offered a job in this industry.
I am anything but retarded, anybody who reads what I have to say knows it, but when you have the IQ of a sparrow and the vocabulary of a ten year old it's all you can come up with.
It's scary to think that he'll spend his day trying to get people to take his advice on what to do with their retirement dollars. Damn scary.
[quote=dashampersand]
Put:
This afternoon after I wrote my original post, I had a man come to my office to do some business. He is 48 years old and a factory worker. He is not college educated and works a line job 55 hours a week. He plans to work until he is at least 70. He wears old clothes and looks bedraggled. He definitely does not speak the Queen's English.
However, he came to my office to open 529 plans for the five (5) special needs children that he and his wife have adopted. He put his absolute trust in me.
You say that I need to aim higher. There could be no higher aim than to serve clients such as this.
[/quote]
Brokers who work with poor people are poor brokers. Set your sights a little higher, son.
Annuity Guy:
First, I'm not your f__king son. Second, I'm 51 years old and a 23 year veteran of this business. Third, I have $125 mil under management. Fourth, I netted $525,000 last year.
If I don't help a few lower income and less sophisticated clients along the way to Mercedes heaven, who will?
[quote=dashampersand]
Annuity Guy:
First, I'm not your f__king son. Second, I'm 51 years old and a 23 year veteran of this business. Third, I have $125 mil under management. Fourth, I netted $525,000 last year.
If I don't help a few lower income and less sophisticated clients along the way to Mercedes heaven, who will?
[/quote]I say you committed securities fraud because you allowed the schlub to open college funding investment for "special needs" kids.
You've already told the assembled that you do not have a degree--so I suggest your point of view carries a huge degree of prejudice.
I never said that I don't have a college degree. I do. However, when I was in college I had no intention of becoming a financial advisor, so my degree is not pertinent. In the past years I have obtained designations (alphabet soup) to put on my card. My clients don't ask if I have a degree and those who know that my degree is not in finance don't care.
That being said, I agree with you that there are a lot of very unqualified people in this industry. It is scary to think of the unsuspecting people who trust someone who can't string two thoughts together with their hard earned dollars.
[quote=babbling looney]
You’ve already told the assembled that
you do not have a degree–so I suggest your point of view carries a
huge degree of prejudice.
I never said that I don't have a college degree. I do. However, when I was in college I had no intention of becoming a financial advisor, so my degree is not pertinent. In the past years I have obtained designations (alphabet soup) to put on my card. My clients don't ask if I have a degree and those who know that my degree is not in finance don't care.
That being said, I agree with you that there are a lot of very unqualified people in this industry. It is scary to think of the unsuspecting people who trust someone who can't string two thoughts together with their hard earned dollars.
[/quote]My bad. Sorry. I guess I can assume that you would not recommend that a son or daughter blow off a formal education .
I have been involved in discussions at the NASD regarding instituting an education requirement. There are more than a few people who actually believe that the reason the penny stock market fraud occurs is because the NASD does not have an education requirement.
They suggest that stupid people are more easily led down the wrong path and/or taht people who are not motivated enough to finish something as basic as college will be tempted to take shortcuts in business--and chief among those shortcuts from the NASD's perspective is conning investors.
The argument against an education policy is that the broker/dealer should be free to hire whomever they want until society--through its elected representatives--creates an education standard. The reason that doctors have to have gone to college is not because the hospitals that hire them have that requirement but because our various states do.
Anyway, we're not going to get an educational requirement--and that's too bad. But that does not mean that the selective firms will not self-impose one and I, for one, wish there were a lot more selective firms.
I also believe that most clients think that brokers are college educated and would be surprised to learn that the door is actually open to losers who can't be bothered enough to matriculate, much less graduate.
[quote=dashampersand]
Annuity Guy:
First, I'm not your f__king son. Second, I'm 51 years old and a 23 year veteran of this business. Third, I have $125 mil under management. Fourth, I netted $525,000 last year.
If I don't help a few lower income and less sophisticated clients along the way to Mercedes heaven, who will?
[/quote]
I know you're not my son, but I feel like you are because of my relationship with your mom.
[quote=annuity guy]
I know you're not my son, but I feel like you are because of my relationship with your mom.
[/quote]I began message boarding when I was on the road most of the time--when you've been to every major city in the world and most of the minor ones in the United States it eventually becomes very boring to be in hotels.
Anyway, about ten years ago I discovered AOL message boards and became addicted to them. It was a fun way to spend and evening in a hotel since my wife didn't want me to date.
Now that I no longer travel that much I no longer get to engage in really great message boards.
Against that backdrop I want to declare the above to be in the top five all time one liners.
My mother and father are deceased. Thanks for reminding me that I am an orphan.
[quote=Put Trader] [quote=annuity guy]
I know you're not my son, but I feel like you are because of my relationship with your mom.
[/quote]
I began message boarding when I was on the road most of the time--when you've been to every major city in the world and most of the minor ones in the United States it eventually becomes very boring to be in hotels.
Anyway, about ten years ago I discovered AOL message boards and became addicted to them. It was a fun way to spend and evening in a hotel since my wife didn't want me to date.
Now that I no longer travel that much I no longer get to engage in really great message boards.
Against that backdrop I want to declare the above to be in the top five all time one liners.
[/quote]
Thank you very much.
[quote=dashampersand]My mother and father are deceased. Thanks for reminding me that I am an orphan.[/quote]
You're welcome, son.
[quote=babbling looney]
I never said that I don't have a college degree. I do.
However, when I was in college I had no intention of becoming a
financial advisor, so my degree is not pertinent. In the past
years I have obtained designations (alphabet soup) to put on my
card. My clients don't ask if I have a degree and those who know
that my degree is not in finance don't care.
We all have things that we go "nuts" about--mine is the dumbing down of society in the frenzied attempt to make the various contingencies in our population "equal."
It was thought that the segment that historically has been lagging could catch up with the segment that historically had not been lagging--get the code, boys and girls?
Anway that proved to be impossible--as it turned out there is such a thing as "gray matter" and "native intelligence" and in a mean triick somewhere along the way God decided that some of us would be very good at thinkiing but not so good at dribbling a basketball, while others would be wizards at dribbling a basketball but would not be able to read and write. Just the way it is, a mean spirited trick by some supreme being.
But I'm going off on a tangent. I know, I know the assembled cannot believe that Put Trader would do that, but alas it happens. Let's snap back into sharp focus.
There are many reasons to get a degree--it's good to know about lots of things is a really great reason.
But when it comes to submitting a resume very often all that matters is do you have the degee or not. It's a way of separating the cream from the curd--a door opener.
It also carries panache in society as a whole. If that were not true there would be no desire to lie about your eduction. A year or so ago one of the guys I work with came into my office to ask if I would be bothered by what was bothering him.
It seems his wife of twenty-five or more years had, for some reason, decided to confess to him that she never finished at Colgate where she had led him to believe she had completed a degree in something or other.
He felt betrayed, as if she were confessing to an affair or something. We talked about it for awhile and came to no decision. The gist of the discussions was how it certainly doesn't matter, how she had done a great job as a mother, been a great wife and everything else--but in his mind she was not who she thought she was.
I think clients are the same way. They don't ask if you're degreed or not because it's assumed that you are. I believe that a great many clients would actually leave a broker if they knew that broker had not been intellectually capable of completing a degree--regardless of what it is in.
From time to time somebody suggests that clients should be given a short biographical sketch of the individual they are entrusting with their assets--a week or so after they opened their account they would get a welcome letter from the firm, and included with that letter would be information about the broker including when they got registered, what they scored on qualification exams and their educational background.
Go buy a box of Cheerios--you'll get far more information about what you just bought than you'll get if you write a check and hand it to a broker.
Why is that?
[quote=dashampersand]
Put:
This afternoon after I wrote my original post, I had a man come to my office to do some business. He is 48 years old and a factory worker. He is not college educated and works a line job 55 hours a week. He plans to work until he is at least 70. He wears old clothes and looks bedraggled. He definitely does not speak the Queen's English.
However, he came to my office to open 529 plans for the five (5) special needs children that he and his wife have adopted. He put his absolute trust in me.
You say that I need to aim higher. There could be no higher aim than to serve clients such as this.
[/quote]
You can't make a living working with people like this, but it's great that you did find some time to help him with his project.
[quote=babbling looney]
If you have your entire net worth tied up in a single stock--even if it's where you work--you have to be a moron. How bright does somebody have to be in order to know that the stock market can go down?
Moron may be a bit harsh, but I have to agree here a bit; with the codicil that the broker who didn't educate his client about a stop loss order or diversifyiing assets has been remiss in his duties. Individuals who, on their own, left huge amounts of assets in any one company, may not be morons, but certainly can be classifed as stupid, lazy and greedy.
What is also ridiculous is the idea that there is anybody in this country who was denied a college education due to lack of funding. Most of the greatest generation were in the service and were eligible for the GI Bill--as has every veteran since.
Among younger people--since the draft lottery--there has been an abundance of student loans and scholarships. It's apolgizing again to believe that those who do not have college educations don't have them because they couldn't afford them.
I agree that almost (notice I said almost) anyone who has the drive and determination to succeed can find the money, and the counseling to obtain the money, to get a good college education. However, I differ here from Put in that I don't think a degree is the "be all, end all" of success. I know many, very successful entrepenuers, who are not blessed with a degree. It is the drive, determination and native wit that make them a success.
Now, let's ask a philosophical question. Should somebody who thinks like I do be allowed to sit on arbitration panels--or should such panels be closed to men and women who are personal responsibility zealots?
I think you mean anti personal responsibility zealots. People need to take responsibility for their own actions or lack of actions. There is a culture of victimhood in our society, and too many people that are so politically correct that they don't want to face down the needy, greedy "victims" for fear of seeming hard.
So, part of the debacle can be attributed to greed and ignorance on the part of the investor. Part can be attributed to lazy inattentiveness and fiduciary failure on the part of the broker. However, the biggest portion of the blame should be and rightly is attributed to Bernie Ebbers and he deserves every minute of jail time he serves.
[/quote]
[quote=Put Trader] I have been involved in discussions at the NASD regarding instituting an education requirement. [/quote]
Was this before, or after, they cornered you during an audit?
An audit would be the ONLY time puttyndacrack would have an opportunity to have a discussion with anybody from the NASD, with the exception of an investigation for breaking the rules (which is highly likely, given his ignorance).
Put:
I would like to remind you that 529 Plans are not only for college expenses but can be used to pay for qualified expenses at licensed trade schools. Hence, securities fraud might be a little inappropriate to use. Also, since I am not a practicing physician, I do not feel qualified to determine the potential of my clients' children to attend college.
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