After the sale

[quote=Rob Yull]

I am fairly new to the biz. I use alto of VA’s,
they pay good, gets your net up there fast, but no trails.
The woman I work under (she gets 10%) says if your not
getting a trail why service the account. I just stick them in the
balanced allocation and wham, done.

But I get these calls wanting to know how is it doing? I just tell them in a round about way we will open that chest up in 7 years. I document everything cause the lady I work under has lost mediation before.

Do you guys tend to be more Advisors or salesmen? I love closing the sale, so advising may not be my cup of tea.

Might just be bad Bobby, or Joe doing Bobbie.

Do you guys tend to be more Advisors or salesmen? I love closing the sale, so advising may not be my cup of tea.

Go sell used cars.  That would seem to be your cup of tea.

[quote=babbling looney]

Do you guys tend to be more Advisors or salesmen? I love closing the sale, so advising may not be my cup of tea.

Go sell used cars.  That would seem to be your cup of tea.

[/quote]

Selling VA's and EIA's pays much better than used cars. I'm surprised that a smart WOMAN like you didn't know that. Go back to the kitchen while the men are talking.

Actually looney I did sell used cars in college. I worked at a refi (low credit) lot, one of my dads college buddies/bookie. We could sell the same car 2-3 times. Easy money, but I wanted to work in a more respectable industry. My girlfriends would ask, “what do you do…?” Of course they had no clue how much money there is to made working that angle. They want lawyers and doctor’s. I sorry if I sounded a little arrogant with my first comments. But if I use the annuities managed portfolio, I don’t have to worry about which fund to use. Its professionally managed, I just need to find out from the client which fits best Conservative, moderate, or aggressive. All of mine so far have been long term investments. But like when I sold car’s I predict there will be in 7 years a much better annuity available. Look at what you had 7 years ago compared to today. This is my goal. Bust my butt 5 more years. Then “refi” the annuities into a much better product. My business will be annualized at 7%. I want to know if this can be accomplished, surely I am not the only one that uses this approach.

It can be accomplished if you are annuity sharking. I don’t think this site

is really geared towards your type. I steal accounts from salesmen like

you, and try to figure out how to get people out of their awful, expensive

annuities without incurring that 15 year surrender charge. More often

than not, I end up having to tell them they are stuck in that awful,

expensive annuity. It’s sleazy stuff, but I really blame the insurance

companies that enable the sleazy salesmen to sell those sleazy

"products".

[quote=silouette]Might just be bad Bobby, or Joe doing Bobbie. [/quote]

Not I, sir.

[quote=Rob Yull]Actually looney I did sell used cars in college. I worked at a refi (low credit) lot, one of my dads college buddies/bookie. We could sell the same car 2-3 times. Easy money, but I wanted to work in a more respectable industry. My girlfriends would ask, "what do you do..?" Of course they had no clue how much money there is to made working that angle. They want lawyers and doctor's. I sorry if I sounded a little arrogant with my first comments. But if I use the annuities managed portfolio, I don't have to worry about which fund to use. Its professionally managed, I just need to find out from the client which fits best Conservative, moderate, or aggressive. All of mine so far have been long term investments. But like when I sold car's I predict there will be in 7 years a much better annuity available. Look at what you had 7 years ago compared to today. This is my goal. Bust my butt 5 more years. Then "refi" the annuities into a much better product. My business will be annualized at 7%. I want to know if this can be accomplished, surely I am not the only one that uses this approach.[/quote]

It will only be annualized at 7% if your getting paid 49% commissions. If you are, please send me a PM. I would love to get paid that much.

Maybe I was confusing, a month before 7 year surrender we will meet and start the 1035 paper work with a different annuity. We 1035 to a new 7 years surrender. We earn 7% on VA's. If that 100 is worth 170 in 7 years I would get paid 7% on 170.  My annuities are no more expensive than the next, tough luck Broke24 if you can't hold them. Talk to your outfit. Don't you understand that I you sell them something the competition can't sell your at a disadvantage.

So in every 7 years I will have a constant flow of annuitized business. I know some people will die, but I only get never money, so their not that all worried about surrender charges.

Didn't mean to stir the pot here. But isn't this forum for passing on suggestions and ideas. I have done nothing wrong if I explain it to the client and they understand.

Again, I love to close the deal.

I sincerely hope this is a jok, but if not, you'd be wiser to take considerably less up front and take trails instead.  That matches your income up to servicing and you don't have to rewrite your anuities every year.  What guarantee do you have anyway, that there will be better options in seven years and/or the regulators won't make it near impossible to 1035 anuities by then?

Also, based on what your mentor is telling you ("don't do any servicing if you're not getting trails"), and the fact that she's lost arbitration (not at all surprising, given the advice she's giving you), I'd find a new mentor.

[quote=Rob Yull] This is my goal. Bust my butt 5 more years. Then "refi" the annuities into a much better product. My business will be annualized at 7%. I want to know if this can be accomplished, surely I am not the only one that uses this approach.[/quote]

You're a crook.

And, unfortunately, folks like you in the annuity business are the rule, instead of being the exception.

Her mediation was based on a discretionary decision. There is no one on this board with any amount of time in this business who has not taken a little liberty to when an order is placed.  Stock guys don't call every client when placing trades. Especially after you keep hearing, "do whatever is best...." You feel that control of power and you think, "she always does what I want. I will just let her know I put her money to work next time I see her"   "Do you have to send me sooo much stuff in the mail, if you don't think its important don't send it."   You think, "I am tired of paying postage, Do I really need to send that prospectus everytime?" 

Speak now or forever hold you peace if you have never done any or part of the above. I didn't come here to let a bunch of sinner's say I am sinning.

[quote=Rob Yull]

Her mediation was based on a discretionary decision. There is no one on this board with any amount of time in this business who has not taken a little liberty to when an order is placed.  Stock guys don’t call every client when placing trades. Especially after you keep hearing, “do whatever is best…” You feel that control of power and you think, “she always does what I want. I will just let her know I put her money to work next time I see her”   “Do you have to send me sooo much stuff in the mail, if you don’t think its important don’t send it.”   You think, “I am tired of paying postage, Do I really need to send that prospectus everytime?” 

Speak now or forever hold you peace if you have never done any or part of the above. I didn't come here to let a bunch of sinner's say I am sinning.

That’s just what your mentor told you to justify it.  If you want to end up in arbitration, keep listening to her.

It seems your ethical standards are much better suited for the used car business. People like you destroy investor confidence and make it tougher for honest people to make a living. I feel sorry for your clients or maybe we should refer to them as victims.

You are a thief.

It’s good to know Joe is out there, but some of you guys need to loosen a couple of notches out of your belt. Thief? I work hard to find money, cause I love to make money. I let money managers manage the assets, do you guys do the same thing? Mutual funds, Jones people only use American funds. Back off borker boy, I don’t sell to my clients that I am the “one” who picks and choses. Some of you are jealous, you want to be a good salesman but you will never be one. Like farotech, calling me a thief, shim probably loves looking at asset allocations and run hypo’s all day for something that has already happen. In stead of asking for the money. We don’t know wtf is going to happen next, I let my clients know that, but their money is being managed by people who do this for living. I just find out their needs and risk tolerances. Then put their money to work.  Yes it is good to know what annuities the jones guy down the road can hold. He doesn’t take mine for a livin.  

Yull, I am not going to chop on you.

After reading that last post it made me remember when I was a jonesee. So many people failed, I mean sooo many. (double negative about to happen) They were not and  could not be a salesman. Jones loved people like you that sales came so naturally. I am sure AGE, ML, SB would too. Anyway I not too fond of using annuities, but thats between you and your client.

You don't work for Bobby do you? I had forgotten Bobby is a girls name too.

[quote=Rob Yull]  Yes it is good to know what annuities the jones guy down the road can hold. He doesn't take mine for a livin.  [/quote]

I'll admit that it's very disheartening when someone comes to me with a junk annuity that they want to get out of and I have to tell them that not only can I not hold the annuity because it's crap, but I also can't do anything to help them out.

I implore you not to fall into the trap you're headed for. I realize that 12% commissions are extremely attractive, but you'll eventually end up in arbitration and then be back to selling cars.

Borker Boy, do actually tell people that anything that you can’t hold at your

little firm is crap?



You’re worse than Rob Yull pretends to be.

[quote=Rob Yull]It’s good to know Joe is out there, but some of you guys need to loosen a couple of notches out of your belt. Thief? I work hard to find money, cause I love to make money. I let money managers manage the assets, do you guys do the same thing? Mutual funds, Jones people only use American funds. Back off borker boy, I don’t sell to my clients that I am the “one” who picks and choses. Some of you are jealous, you want to be a good salesman but you will never be one. Like farotech, calling me a thief, shim probably loves looking at asset allocations and run hypo’s all day for something that has already happen. In stead of asking for the money. We don’t know wtf is going to happen next, I let my clients know that, but their money is being managed by people who do this for living. I just find out their needs and risk tolerances. Then put their money to work.  Yes it is good to know what annuities the jones guy down the road can hold. He doesn’t take mine for a livin.  [/quote]

My clients think it’s good that I’m out here too.

My firm can hold far more investments of different varieties than Jones.  I get a lot of referrals to clean up after clowns like you, too!  Your clients will need my help long after you’re out of the business.

  I have been called worse by the Jones borker down the street. She is just way too general.

My specialty is selling VA's. I am totally open to my clients on what they are getting. Is there something wrong in becoming a specialist? I found closure rates get better and better. 

Doctor's have been doing this for years. Family Practice (jones) Gynecologist (me) Who makes the most? Any specialist does. Internal, Family Practice, and Ped's. They make the least amount of money of the physicians. Look at lawyers they totally specialize, if not they will be handling small claims, divorces, wills, and some real estate closures.

[quote=Rob Yull]

  I have been called worse by the Jones borker down the street. She is just way too general.

My specialty is selling VA's. I am totally open to my clients on what they are getting. Is there something wrong in becoming a specialist? I found closure rates get better and better. 

Doctor's have been doing this for years. Family Practice (jones) Gynecologist (me) Who makes the most? Any specialist does. Internal, Family Practice, and Ped's. They make the least amount of money of the physicians. Look at lawyers they totally specialize, if not they will be handling small claims, divorces, wills, and some real estate closures.

[/quote]

Amen.

[quote=Philo Kvetch]Borker Boy, do actually tell people that anything that you can't hold at your
little firm is crap?

You're worse than Rob Yull pretends to be.[/quote]

No, I don't tell them their annuity is crap.

They already know that; hence the reason they walk into my office with their policy in hand.

[quote=Borker Boy]

[quote=Philo Kvetch]Borker Boy, do actually tell

people that anything that you can’t hold at your little firm is crap? You’re

worse than Rob Yull pretends to be.[/quote]

No, I don’t tell them their annuity is crap.

They already know that; hence the reason they walk into my office with

their policy in hand.

[quote=Borker Boy]

[quote=Philo Kvetch]Borker Boy, do actually tell people that anything that you can't hold at your
little firm is crap?

You're worse than Rob Yull pretends to be.[/quote]

No, I don't tell them their annuity is crap.

They already know that; hence the reason they walk into my office with their policy in hand.

[/quote]

You just got your "can sell" date. You don't have an office for people to walk into. You have a table for people to walk up to, in case you ever get a person.

Client before product. It sounds like you’re doing it the other way around.

[quote=Ashland] Client before product. It sounds like you’re doing it the

other way around.[/quote]



What exactly is wrong with having a great product, then sifting through

people 'til you find good candidatesfor it? If done right, it could be a very

profitable strategy. It’s not my cup of tea, only because I don’t know how to

do it.

[quote=Rob Yull]

  I have been called worse by the Jones borker down the street. She is just way too general.

My specialty is selling VA's. I am totally open to my clients on what they are getting. Is there something wrong in becoming a specialist? I found closure rates get better and better. 

Doctor's have been doing this for years. Family Practice (jones) PROCTOLOGIST (me) Who makes the most? Any specialist does. Internal, Family Practice, and Ped's. They make the least amount of money of the physicians. Look at lawyers they totally specialize, if not they will be handling small claims, divorces, wills, and some real estate closures.

[/quote]

She's too general?  She realizes that this isn't a one size fits all business and she's got to deal with issues beyond what do you do with this $50,000 today.  Retirement planning, LTC planning, Survivorship issues, estate planning, college, disability...I can keep going if you like.  Very few of those have anything to do with an annuity.  She will do more financial planning in a day than you will do in year.  And you say she's too general.  Ha! 

I love your doctor's analogy by the way.  It shows that you don't quite grasp this business.  The majority of the time you need a referral from your PCP before you can go see a specialist and have your insurance cover it.  It's his job to tell you what he believes is your issue, then you go to the specialist he recommends.  Just like you would go see a Jones (or pick any other financial planner) FA to let them diagnose your current situation and then let them recommend a good specialist product for you.  The PCP doesn't send everybody to the oncologist (that's a cancer doctor for the uneducated out there).  There's not a good FA out there that would put everybody in an annuity.  That must mean you are not a good FA. 

In this situation the only reason you are making more money is because you are screwing people for your own profit.  Have you told them how much you make on your anniuties?  Would they expect a different level of service from you if they knew?  My guess is yes.  The "we'll look at this in 7 years when it is out of surrender" comment is a bunch of crap. 

If you're for real, save yourself a lot of time in court and money in arbitration costs and go back to the car business. 

There's not a good FA out there that would put everybody in an annuity.  That must mean you are not a good FA. 

How about giving Rob Yull the benefit of the doubt?  He's an annuity salesperson.  He's not trying to help the person with their college planning, DI planning, etc. because that is not what he does...just like the podatrist won't do brain surgery.   The good podiatrist will send everyone away who does not need "foot work" done.  And if Rob is a good annuity salesperson, he'll send everyone away who doesn't need an annuity.

The podiatrist can make lots of money just from people with foot problems.  An annuity salesperson can make lots of money just from people who would benefit from an annuity.   

[quote=anonymous]

There's not a good FA out there that would put everybody in an annuity.  That must mean you are not a good FA. 

How about giving Rob Yull the benefit of the doubt?  He's an annuity salesperson.  He's not trying to help the person with their college planning, DI planning, etc. because that is not what he does...just like the podatrist won't do brain surgery.   The good podiatrist will send everyone away who does not need "foot work" done.  And if Rob is a good annuity salesperson, he'll send everyone away who doesn't need an annuity.

The podiatrist can make lots of money just from people with foot problems.  An annuity salesperson can make lots of money just from people who would benefit from an annuity.   

[/quote]

Finally, someone gets it!!!

[quote=Spaceman Spiff][quote=Rob Yull]

  I have been called worse by the Jones borker down the street. She is just way too general.

My specialty is selling VA's. I am totally open to my clients on what they are getting. Is there something wrong in becoming a specialist? I found closure rates get better and better. 

Doctor's have been doing this for years. Family Practice (jones) PROCTOLOGIST (me) Who makes the most? Any specialist does. Internal, Family Practice, and Ped's. They make the least amount of money of the physicians. Look at lawyers they totally specialize, if not they will be handling small claims, divorces, wills, and some real estate closures.

[/quote]

She's too general?  She realizes that this isn't a one size fits all business and she's got to deal with issues beyond what do you do with this $50,000 today.  Retirement planning, LTC planning, Survivorship issues, estate planning, college, disability...I can keep going if you like.  Very few of those have anything to do with an annuity.  She will do more financial planning in a day than you will do in year.  And you say she's too general.  Ha! 

I love your doctor's analogy by the way.  It shows that you don't quite grasp this business.  The majority of the time you need a referral from your PCP before you can go see a specialist and have your insurance cover it.  It's his job to tell you what he believes is your issue, then you go to the specialist he recommends.  Just like you would go see a Jones (or pick any other financial planner) FA to let them diagnose your current situation and then let them recommend a good specialist product for you.  The PCP doesn't send everybody to the oncologist (that's a cancer doctor for the uneducated out there).  There's not a good FA out there that would put everybody in an annuity.  That must mean you are not a good FA. 

In this situation the only reason you are making more money is because you are screwing people for your own profit.  Have you told them how much you make on your anniuties?  Would they expect a different level of service from you if they knew?  My guess is yes.  The "we'll look at this in 7 years when it is out of surrender" comment is a bunch of crap. 

If you're for real, save yourself a lot of time in court and money in arbitration costs and go back to the car business. 

[/quote]

Testy, testy.

You don't know me, your so blinded by your rage of you failed to notice I said I only hunt for long term money. 

Too bad the gal down the road puts people in 45 year bonds. WTF!! Is that acceptable?? I will be living off her incompetence if she keeps that up. A city councilwoman just came in with her mothers jones account, ALL BONDS they ranged from 18% down to 5% down. Tell me there is no penalty in that. Another one had a bunch of 4% 30 year muni's that the clients tells me they don't need the income. Why does she push this stuff. It's like all she knows are bonds.

I will be adding the income stream as an option soon. See a good salesman learns his product and believes in it before he uses it. This keeps you out of trouble, it lets you sift the money. I find money for my partner all the time, I am not a shop like a jones. "Lets see, I can get you financed. It's in one of these drawers, hold on. Oh here are your choices. A) Bond B) Investment Company of America C) BAC" Anyway as stated above a wholesaler is flying us down to watch the TPC Sawgrass in a few weeks then go over ways to sell annuities as income streams over bonds. $$$

Continue to be as generalist. I love my work and I love to close the deal. 

[quote=anonymous]

There's not a good FA out there that would put everybody in an annuity.  That must mean you are not a good FA. 

How about giving Rob Yull the benefit of the doubt?  He's an annuity salesperson.  He's not trying to help the person with their college planning, DI planning, etc. because that is not what he does...just like the podatrist won't do brain surgery.   The good podiatrist will send everyone away who does not need "foot work" done.  And if Rob is a good annuity salesperson, he'll send everyone away who doesn't need an annuity.

The podiatrist can make lots of money just from people with foot problems.  An annuity salesperson can make lots of money just from people who would benefit from an annuity.   

[/quote]

I'm not faulting the guy for selling VAs.  I'm fauting him for the flippant attitude that he seems to have when it comes to investing people's life savings and this business in general.  I went back and reread the posts he's put up.  I saw lines like "a month before 7 year surrender we will meet and start the 1035 paper work with a different annuity. We 1035 to a new 7 years surrender" and "we will open that chest up in 7 years" and my favorite "I only get never money."  Those aren't the words of someone who is trying to really help people.  Annuities are horrible estate transfer vehicles if you haven't heard Rob.  You get paid better on life insurance I'm sure, so maybe you can branch out a little.   

To continue with the doctor analogy the Hippocratic oath says something about do no harm.  We've all seen people absolutely burned by VAs because the salesperson slapped the client into them and moved on, never to look back again.  Which is exactly what this guy is talking about doing.  At least he's having them fill out a risk tolerance questionairre.  But do you really think he's sending people away?  Rob, how many people have you referred to your favorite generalist FA in town?  Ever had a conference call with that generalist to ask if the client is right for an annuity or if there would be a better solution out there? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no.  

It is true that a guy can make a lot of money selling people what they want.  So can a crack dealer.       

[quote=Spaceman Spiff][quote=anonymous]

It is true that a guy can make a lot of money selling people what they want.  So can a crack dealer.       

[/quote]

Spiff are you saying  Crack Dealer = Annuity Dealer ?

I noticed how you avoided his experence with the local jones broker. Who is worse, selling a 45 year bond on a cold call. Or meeting with a client to find there risk tolerances and explain the investment. I am not defending Yull, but get off your high horse and realize Jones has some of the same tactics.

Amen brother!!

I might agree with you if I didn't know that A) 45 year bonds are rare at Jones, B) they are rarely sold on a cold call C)  there is a place for long bonds in a portfolio and D) I'm sure the Jones broker's only story isn't buy my 45 year bond.  But to answer your question, I think they're both bad and I wouldn't run my business either way.

The council woman's mother in bonds!!  How inappropriate.  Quick throw her money into a VA.  The couple who doesn't need income buying, probably, insured munis with no taxes!! Quick, throw the money into a  VA and create a taxable situation for their benes!  Whew, I'm glad he was able to save those people.  Seriously, he's basing his experience with the Jones lady down the street on two cases?  Give me a break.

Did he explain the tax ramifications of moving those portfolios to a VA?  Did he ask the council woman's mother about her risk tolerances or was it based on the council woman's?   

Field Supervision would run me out of town if the ONLY thing I was selling was VAs.  They are absolutely NOT appropriate for every client you come into contact with and the impression I get from Mr. Yull is that in his office they are.  I hope he can tell me I'm wrong.  I hope he'll answer the question about the referrals to the generalist in his town.

[quote=Spaceman Spiff]

I might agree with you if I didn't know that A) 45 year bonds are rare at Jones, B) they are rarely sold on a cold call C)  there is a place for long bonds in a portfolio and D) I'm sure the Jones broker's only story isn't buy my 45 year bond.  But to answer your question, I think they're both bad and I wouldn't run my business either way.

The council woman's mother in bonds!!  How inappropriate.  Quick throw her money into a VA.  The couple who doesn't need income buying, probably, insured munis with no taxes!! Quick, throw the money into a  VA and create a taxable situation for their benes!  Whew, I'm glad he was able to save those people.  Seriously, he's basing his experience with the Jones lady down the street on two cases?  Give me a break.

Did he explain the tax ramifications of moving those portfolios to a VA?  Did he ask the council woman's mother about her risk tolerances or was it based on the council woman's?   

Field Supervision would run me out of town if the ONLY thing I was selling was VAs.  They are absolutely NOT appropriate for every client you come into contact with and the impression I get from Mr. Yull is that in his office they are.  I hope he can tell me I'm wrong.  I hope he'll answer the question about the referrals to the generalist in his town.

[/quote]

Spaceman, I am not a Financial Advisor, I hear you just became one. Before, you were an Investment Representative and that's what I do. I represent an investment. I pass money over often to my principle and she sends the VA business my way.  She was with Jones 14 years. She makes the jack, too. She does almost all fee base and I get the annuity business side of the book. She just looks at it like getting a 10% trail without any work. 

You believe the over hype of annuities, that there all bad. She won't let me sell EIA's but thats about it. We specialize and I am the annuity specialist in our office. The two Jones branches in town both advertise bonds and "Free Portfolio Reviews"  Many people with money perceive FREE as a cheap product. You don't like me or my type, because you are you, you will work hard for that 5000 dollar account. That's ok. I don't, because I choose not too. I chose to find 100k minimal a week to put in a VA. Your choosing to be all to everyone, I am not.

I understand what you are saying Rob ... and I happen to be a believer in using annuities SOMETIMES.  But the only time I have ever used them, they are used as a compliment to other products like mutual funds or actively managing the money.  An annuity is NEVER (if you found a case let me know) the ONLY thing that someone should be invested in.  If you are selling annuities as a compliment to other business that someone else in your office does, I get that - but you should never approach a prospect trying to sell them an annuity first becuase it is almost 99% of the time against your fudiciary duty. 

Spiff, I'm with you ...

You read my post we do compliment each other. But we only accept 100k minimal accounts. What is wrong with approaching someone as a person who uses annuities? They can say no, but I usually know they have plenty of money. If they own one I try to 1035 or change broker dealer if it meets our standards.

I am not a financial planner and do not even attempt to portray myself in that manner.  Rich people have money, they don't like taxes. Many don't care what the kids get, they earned it and it is there decision to pass the tax consequences on to there bene's.  Also, annuities are protected from creditors in my state. You are missing out of a ton of business from doctors and transportation companies. You go ahead and put that money in muni's or mutual funds. Then let that business owner get sued. You lost his or hers a$$. I am a specialist I know my product, I sift through the prospects.  YOU ARE NOT HEARING ME.

Ultimately it comes down to money. You want to make more and your broker dealer only wants you to use mutual funds that pay revenue sharing. You guys are smart. I guess I am not, an I will be like everyone else, because they will be making 400k a year by 32. My clients are stupid, too. They don't care if one of their dumb truck driver hits someone and gets sued. However, their local jones broker knew what is best and sold them out of that terrible annuity to own American Funds. I guess you will send their grandkids to college spiff? I work my whole state as a specialist and if you don't believe these type business owners don't talk you are crazy. Sell all the roths you want. I don't care.

I've been browsing these boards for a while and finally wanted to join in.

Count me in as a Yull-Hull disciple.

Please tell me what all of you guys who don't sell VA's are going to do if we have another downturn or the economy slows and we hit another recession.  I, being a guy that sells VA's, will simply say "This is why we payed the extra .50 percent.  So this year, and any year that the market does not  do better than 6%, we will credit you with 6% to take w/ds from.  Whats more, the withdraw base will also be computed off the highest level the account reached.  And no, you do not have to annuitize to take those w/ds."

Annuities are more expensive, but the come with guarantees that provide options.

And as for getting sued.......Yeah i could have sold him the same porfolio of mutual funds, that would have been managed by a  CFA, and had a guaranty for donwside protection, but I like using principia to construct optimum portfolios that the series seven totally prepared me to do.

[quote=jcskimmer]

I understand what you are saying Rob ... and I happen to be a believer in using annuities SOMETIMES.  But the only time I have ever used them, they are used as a compliment to other products like mutual funds or actively managing the money.  An annuity is NEVER (if you found a case let me know) the ONLY thing that someone should be invested in.  If you are selling annuities as a compliment to other business that someone else in your office does, I get that - but you should never approach a prospect trying to sell them an annuity first becuase it is almost 99% of the time against your fudiciary duty. 

Spiff, I'm with you ...

[/quote]

Why?

but you should never approach a prospect trying to sell them an annuity first becuase it is almost 99% of the time against your fudiciary duty.

jcskimmer, you sound like your new to the business.  Since when do investment salespeople have a fiduciary duty?

Rob Yull,

    You have to be pulling everyone's leg in this forum.  Let me see if I have this right.  Can you guess the product I am selling below?

    Has an average total expense of over 3% annually.  Has a limited number of investment choices.  If this product does well it will create a ticking tax time bomb, meaning its tax deferral no longer makes sense with the lower tax consequences of Long Term capital gains and dividend taxes.  The living benefit rider is a giant smoke and mirror show.  You have a 7 year or longer surrender penalty with this product.  I get paid 7% to sell this to you.  If the market drops and you have a high death benefit, you will have to die before your heirs get your money.  If you have a high death benefit in an IRA and you must take RMD's, you must use the death benefit amount to determine the RMD and not the cash value (broker in my town has burned several clients with this one). 

    If you can sleep at night, good for you.  I couldn't.  Karma has a tendancy to catch up with those run their practice dishonestly. 

[quote=rankstocks]

Rob Yull,

    You have to be pulling everyone's leg in this forum.  Let me see if I have this right.  Can you guess the product I am selling below?

    Has an average total expense of over 3% annually.  Has a limited number of investment choices.  If this product does well it will create a ticking tax time bomb, meaning its tax deferral no longer makes sense with the lower tax consequences of Long Term capital gains and dividend taxes.  The living benefit rider is a giant smoke and mirror show.  You have a 7 year or longer surrender penalty with this product.  I get paid 7% to sell this to you.  If the market drops and you have a high death benefit, you will have to die before your heirs get your money.  If you have a high death benefit in an IRA and you must take RMD's, you must use the death benefit amount to determine the RMD and not the cash value (broker in my town has burned several clients with this one). 

    If you can sleep at night, good for you.  I couldn't.  Karma has a tendancy to catch up with those run their practice dishonestly. 

[/quote]

You've just proven that you have no clue as to what you are talking about. You are an idiot, but I'm not going to call you one.

Rankstocks,  you are painting with an awfully broad brush.  

Has an average total expense of over 3% annually. 

This would make it a bad VA.  Many are much less expensive. 

Has a limited number of investment choices. 

True, but is limited investment choices necessarily a bad thing?  We can say the same thing about the client's 401(k) or just about anything that's not in a brokerage account.

If this product does well it will create a ticking tax time bomb, meaning its tax deferral no longer makes sense with the lower tax consequences of Long Term capital gains and dividend taxes. 

I tend to agree which is why in most cases, the VA's that I do are with qualified money.

The living benefit rider is a giant smoke and mirror show. 

100% disagree on this.  I think that the mistaken assumption is that someone wasted money on the living benefit rider if it doesn't need to get used.  In my practice, these riders allow conservative clients to invest more aggressively.  This more aggressive investing has allowed them to get higher returns.  If they did not have the rider, they would have to invest much more conservatively and would be unable to match the returns that they have received.

You have a 7 year or longer surrender penalty with this product. 

True, depending on the particulars of the VA.  I'm not so sure that surrender penalties are a bad thing for the client.   There's a huge difference between investment returns and investor returns.  One reason for this difference is that investors (and their reps) have a tendency to chase returns.  Surrender penalties can serve to stop this from happening.

I get paid 7% to sell this to you. 

What VA will put 7% in your pocket?  Regardless, how much ends up in the rep's pocket is not material.  How much the client receives is what counts.  So, yes, expenses count. How much the rep makes from these expenses doesn't.  Ultimately, the rep will make more money by putting someone in a fee-based account than in a VA. 

If the market drops and you have a high death benefit, you will have to die before your heirs get your money. 

I don't understand your point.  By definition, heirs only get money at death regardless of the investment and investment performance.   This is why they are called "heirs".  You can still give the money away when you alive just like any other investment.

If you have a high death benefit in an IRA and you must take RMD's, you must use the death benefit amount to determine the RMD and not the cash value (broker in my town has burned several clients with this one). 

Untrue.  The RMD's are based upon the contract value from the last day of the previous year.  Both the Cash Surrender Value and the Death benefit are meaningless when it comes to RMD's.  

Annuities are simply a tool.  They are not good nor bad.  They are appropriate or inappropriate based upon the situation.  Like all other products, some are better than others.  

[quote=anonymous]

I get paid 7% to sell this to you. 

What VA will put 7% in your pocket?  Regardless, how much ends up in the rep's pocket is not material.  How much the client receives is what counts.  So, yes, expenses count. How much the rep makes from these expenses doesn't.  Ultimately, the rep will make more money by putting someone in a fee-based account than in a VA. 

Why are the commissions in German?

[quote=Spaceman Spiff]Why are the commissions in German?[/quote]

Funny man!

That is merely an example I know of off the top of my head.

[quote=anonymous]

but you should never approach a prospect trying to sell them an annuity first becuase it is almost 99% of the time against your fudiciary duty.

jcskimmer, you sound like your new to the business.  Since when do investment salespeople have a fiduciary duty?

[/quote]

You say that as if it's ok to not...  If you have your NASD S66, you have a fudiciary duty - it doesn't just apply to investments (if you don't hold that license, I apologize - but I feel more comfortable telling prospects that I do, and it makes them more comfortable as well). 

I NEVER said annuities were bad, I use them (I prefer ING's Landmark w/ MGIB), I just said they were only appropriate after you understand they are best for the client.  It certainly sounds like Yull is more interested in money than his client's best interests - a strategy that will not work in the long run.  I am new in the business, my approach?  Honest, straight forward advice and products that my client understands and support for the long run - and I can sleep at night :)

jcskimmer, every time that you open your mouth, you sound more and more like a rookie.   Just because you have your NASD S66 does not mean that you are acting in a fiduciary duty.  It means that you have the ability to act in a fiduciary capacity if your firm allows you do so and the particular client agrees to it. 

If you have your 66, yet you are selling product for a commission and you don't have an advisory agreement with your client, you are not acting as a fiduciary.

I find nothing wrong in many cases with not acting as a fiduciary.

[quote=jcskimmer]

  If you have your NASD S66, you have a fudiciary duty - it doesn’t just apply to investments (if you don’t hold that license, I apologize - but I feel more comfortable telling prospects that I do, and it makes them more comfortable as well). 

jcskimmer, rankstocks 

You guys are worrying about your image too much. My image is I sell a solution. I don't mom and pop my products or go after simples' sep's or worry about whatever your  analist is spouting off on cnbc. You can do whatever you want.

I get the notion that many people on here are jealous of others making money. I don't worry about money, because I am making more and more of it. You are assuming all of us want to be life coaches. Thats more than I care to ever understand. We live this baby once, and I am going doing it with a passion. This supports my lifestyle of nice cars, women, and bone fishing. There are some cool guys on here that are open minded and objective. You close your mind off like many of those I have crossed at jones. I came into a good situation, but just like in college baseball the way we practiced is the way we played the game. Take for instance spiff,  He wants to leave jones soo bad he comes here to live out his fantasy of being an independent.

Once you learn to let money go, you get better at focusing on your goal. Go watch National Geographic when you see that cheetah look at all those impalas, the jones of the world try to net the whole bunch. I am the cheetah. I focus on one letting the rest go. Why, because you can't be all to everyone. Therefore I am a specialist just like the cheetah, he doesn't get the kill every time, but he knows it must stay focused on one to get the big kill.

Are you rich?

Not Rich enough.

[quote=Rob Yull]

 Take for instance spiff,  He wants to leave jones soo bad he comes here to live out his fantasy of being an independent.

[/quote]

Huh, there's the something new I learned today.  Actually Rob, I don't want to leave Jones.  If I did, I would.  I've had some offers to do just that.  If I wanted to go to a forum to live out a fantasy, it certainly wouldn't be this one.

Look, when you put your ideas on this forum with a bunch of guys who are "looking to take down the whole herd" expect that you aren't going to get much respect.  Personally I don't really care what you do.  But you might want to explain to the rest of us that you are the guy in the office that does annuities.  Period.  Your original post made you look like a sleazy annuity salesman.  Period.  That's why you caught so much grief.  At least that was my assumption of you.  As long as you can sleep at night you keep doing your thing.    

Huh??  You don’t want to leave EDJ?  I’m feeling let down, hurt, slapped in the face and violated.  So the lease you signed is for…what…a drycleaner??

anonymous,

 you quoted:

If you have a high death benefit in an IRA and you must take RMD's, you must use the death benefit amount to determine the RMD and not the cash value (broker in my town has burned several clients with this one). 

Untrue.  The RMD's are based upon the contract value from the last day of the previous year.  Both the Cash Surrender Value and the Death benefit are meaningless when it comes to RMD's.  

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

You are dead wrong, and I hope you haven't screwed your clients.  Either you are a rookie, or don't understand the change in rules last year.  You also used to be able to convert an annuity with a low cash value and a high death benefit to a roth and use the cash vaue as the basis to pay taxes on, but that has changed to the death benefit amount as well.  Why I must continually educate rookies, or even feel the need to, I don't know.

Also, any fool knows the living income riders and GMIB's are an absolute joke.  Smoke and mirror your clients to death, we all know the truth.

rankstocks, can you please back up your post.  I'd appreciate it.   My knowledge and my sources all tell me that I'm correct, but I've been wrong in the past and will be wrong in the future. 

I believe that RMD's are based upon the contract value (not the surrender value and not the death benefit) as of the last day of the previous year. 

Can someone please back me up or let me know that I'm wrong. 

Why are you calling living income riders an absolute joke?   The guarantee that these provide have allowed my clients to invest more aggressively and not panic when the market goes down.  This combination has allowed my annuity clients to outperform my mutual fund clients.  It does not matter that the insurance company won't have to pay a dime to my clients and it cost my clients some money.  The end result remains that the living benefits will mean more money in the pockets of my clients. 

[quote=anonymous]

rankstocks, can you please back up your post.  I'd appreciate it.   My knowledge and my sources all tell me that I'm correct, but I've been wrong in the past and will be wrong in the future. 

I believe that RMD's are based upon the contract value (not the surrender value and not the death benefit) as of the last day of the previous year. 

Can someone please back me up or let me know that I'm wrong. 

Why are you calling living income riders an absolute joke?   The guarantee that these provide have allowed my clients to invest more aggressively and not panic when the market goes down.  This combination has allowed my annuity clients to outperform my mutual fund clients.  It does not matter that the insurance company won't have to pay a dime to my clients and it cost my clients some money.  The end result remains that the living benefits will mean more money in the pockets of my clients. 

[/quote]

He's right. If you don't use an optional death benefit rider, you're fine. I haven't used one in years.

Bobby, please clarify “He’s right”.  Is “he” me or rankstocks.  Thanks.

[quote=anonymous]Bobby, please clarify "He's right".  Is "he" me or rankstocks.  Thanks.[/quote]

rankstocks.

To make a blanket statement that says Rankstocks is right or anonymous is right would be well, wrong.  Neither are techinically right. 

The IRS code change involves counting "additional benefits" into the Fair Market Value of a qualified annuity, from which the RMD is calculated.  Additional benefits could be death benefits or income riders that they consider in the money.  For example, I have some clients with $1000 contracts holding onto $50K in death benefit.  Their FMV goes up because of the DB.  Likewise does their RMD.  I don't remember it being a drastic adjustment, but it did adjust.  

There is an exclusion for the additional benefits if they are less than 20% of the account value and if they reduce proportionately for withdrawals.  Also if the DB is a return of premium only.

So, the FMV doesn't always go up, but the DB it isn't always excluded.  The income riders I would guess are so new and we've had such good markets that I wouldn't think they are impacting FMV yet. 

Clients and reps get letters at the end of the year telling the clients their FMV is going to be adjusted, so it's not a suprise.  But it is something to be aware of.   

[quote=Spaceman Spiff]

To make a blanket statement that says Rankstocks is right or anonymous is right would be well, wrong.  Neither are techinically right. 

The IRS code change involves counting "additional benefits" into the Fair Market Value of a qualified annuity, from which the RMD is calculated.  Additional benefits could be death benefits or income riders that they consider in the money.  For example, I have some clients with $1000 contracts holding onto $50K in death benefit.  Their FMV goes up because of the DB.  Likewise does their RMD.  I don't remember it being a drastic adjustment, but it did adjust.  

There is an exclusion for the additional benefits if they are less than 20% of the account value and if they reduce proportionately for withdrawals.  Also if the DB is a return of premium only.

So, the FMV doesn't always go up, but the DB it isn't always excluded.  The income riders I would guess are so new and we've had such good markets that I wouldn't think they are impacting FMV yet. 

Clients and reps get letters at the end of the year telling the clients their FMV is going to be adjusted, so it's not a suprise.  But it is something to be aware of.   

[/quote]

You're right.

Spaceman, thanks for the clear explanation.   It’s always great to learn something.

[quote=Spaceman Spiff]

To make a blanket statement that says Rankstocks is right or anonymous is right would be well, wrong.  Neither are techinically right. 

The IRS code change involves counting "additional benefits" into the Fair Market Value of a qualified annuity, from which the RMD is calculated.  Additional benefits could be death benefits or income riders that they consider in the money.  For example, I have some clients with $1000 contracts holding onto $50K in death benefit.  Their FMV goes up because of the DB.  Likewise does their RMD.  I don't remember it being a drastic adjustment, but it did adjust.  

There is an exclusion for the additional benefits if they are less than 20% of the account value and if they reduce proportionately for withdrawals.  Also if the DB is a return of premium only.

So, the FMV doesn't always go up, but the DB it isn't always excluded.  The income riders I would guess are so new and we've had such good markets that I wouldn't think they are impacting FMV yet. 

Clients and reps get letters at the end of the year telling the clients their FMV is going to be adjusted, so it's not a suprise.  But it is something to be aware of.   

[/quote]

It should be noted that when this kicks in, the discount factor that is used to calculate NPV of the benefit is so high, that the amount used to calculate RMD isn't much more than the contract value anyway.

I can't imagine a scenario where it would make a difference, but maybe that is simply because all of my VAs have contract values that are equal to the death benefit.

What I find interesting about this thread is that Rankstocks is calling this a disadvantage of VA's at the same time that he is saying that living benefits are smoke and mirrors.  It sure seems to me that if the situation occurred where the death benefit was much higher than the contract value, it would reason that the living benefits would be extremely valuable since they would also be much higher than the contract value.

Bingo!  It's easy to look at annuities over the last 5 years and say the DB and living benes are a waste of time and money.  Ask my dad about his Hartford annuity that he bought in 1999 when he retired and immediately started taking an income stream off of.  Nothing like three straight down years to screw up a good thing.  That sequence of returns brochure I have on my desk is starting to make sense to a lot of people.  It's also closing a lot of annuity business in my office.  Biz that I wasn't getting because people thought they were geniuses managing their old 401Ks and making money.  Monkey's picking mutual funds could have done the same thing over the last 5 years. 

[quote=Spaceman Spiff]

Bingo!  It's easy to look at annuities over the last 5 years and say the DB and living benes are a waste of time and money.  Ask my dad about his Hartford annuity that he bought in 1999 when he retired and immediately started taking an income stream off of.  Nothing like three straight down years to screw up a good thing.  That sequence of returns brochure I have on my desk is starting to make sense to a lot of people.  It's also closing a lot of annuity business in my office.  Biz that I wasn't getting because people thought they were geniuses managing their old 401Ks and making money.  Monkey's picking mutual funds could have done the same thing over the last 5 years. 

[/quote]

I keep a copy of a client statement nearby, with the name and contract number blacked out. It's quite a powerful closing tool to see what really has happened to a real account.

[quote=Bobby Hull][quote=Spaceman Spiff]

Bingo!  It's easy to look at annuities over the last 5 years and say the DB and living benes are a waste of time and money.  Ask my dad about his Hartford annuity that he bought in 1999 when he retired and immediately started taking an income stream off of.  Nothing like three straight down years to screw up a good thing.  That sequence of returns brochure I have on my desk is starting to make sense to a lot of people.  It's also closing a lot of annuity business in my office.  Biz that I wasn't getting because people thought they were geniuses managing their old 401Ks and making money.  Monkey's picking mutual funds could have done the same thing over the last 5 years. 

[/quote]

I keep a copy of a client statement nearby, with the name and contract number blacked out. It's quite a powerful closing tool to see what really has happened to a real account.

[/quote]

I do that also. That works very well.

Plus under my clear plastic desk botter I have the Franklin Funds piece (same size as the blotter) that shows the history of market sectors in a grid pattern.  It  is very graphically illustrative to bring up why people lost so much in the 2000 downturn.  Helps when we talk about asset allocation in the annuity or brokerage account.

I also have a sample portfolio analysis package from a real account with the name and account number blacked out to show what the depth of the analysis that is done on their account.  Lots of pretty graphs and the clients are impressed.  ooooh shiny.

Spiff is right.  I have one client who just cashed in an annuity they bought in early 2000.  It went immediately down and the agent did just what is being discussed here......nothing.  No servicing. No re-allocating into other sectors.  When I finally got the annuity in 2004 they were down almost 40%.  When they cashed it in they had a gain of about a thousand dollars.  If the contract had been offered with a GRIB the client would at least have had some gain to annuitize the contract.  Instead for their 7 years in this investment they would have been better off with the money in a passbook savings account.

[quote=babbling looney][quote=Bobby Hull][quote=Spaceman Spiff]

Bingo!  It's easy to look at annuities over the last 5 years and say the DB and living benes are a waste of time and money.  Ask my dad about his Hartford annuity that he bought in 1999 when he retired and immediately started taking an income stream off of.  Nothing like three straight down years to screw up a good thing.  That sequence of returns brochure I have on my desk is starting to make sense to a lot of people.  It's also closing a lot of annuity business in my office.  Biz that I wasn't getting because people thought they were geniuses managing their old 401Ks and making money.  Monkey's picking mutual funds could have done the same thing over the last 5 years. 

[/quote]

I keep a copy of a client statement nearby, with the name and contract number blacked out. It's quite a powerful closing tool to see what really has happened to a real account.

[/quote]

I do that also. That works very well.

Plus under my clear plastic desk botter I have the Franklin Funds piece (same size as the blotter) that shows the history of market sectors in a grid pattern.  It  is very graphically illustrative to bring up why people lost so much in the 2000 downturn.  Helps when we talk about asset allocation in the annuity or brokerage account.

I also have a sample portfolio analysis package from a real account with the name and account number blacked out to show what the depth of the analysis that is done on their account.  Lots of pretty graphs and the clients are impressed.  ooooh shiny.

Spiff is right.  I have one client who just cashed in an annuity they bought in early 2000.  It went immediately down and the agent did just what is being discussed here......nothing.  No servicing. No re-allocating into other sectors.  When I finally got the annuity in 2004 they were down almost 40%.  When they cashed it in they had a gain of about a thousand dollars.  If the contract had been offered with a GRIB the client would at least have had some gain to annuitize the contract.  Instead for their 7 years in this investment they would have been better off with the money in a passbook savings account.

[/quote]

Texas A&M did a study that proved that 99% of the time, investments that lose money would've been better off in a savings account.

[quote=Bobby Hull]

Texas A&M did a study that proved that 99% of the time, investments that lose money would’ve been better off in a savings account.

Good to know all those tuition dollars are being put to good work.  I'd rank that one up there with the group that released the study recently that says that cow farts are having more of an impact on the greenhouse effect than automobiles.  How does this planet survive without all those studies!?

Spiff, did you get the study from Skrainka? 

Texas A&M did a study that proved that 99% of the time, investments that lose money would've been better off in a savings account

This is true , but my point was that IF the annuity had contained the living benefit guarantees that some on this forum are poo pooing as being of no value, the client would have been way ahead of the game instead of back at square one after 7 years of being worried about their investment.

The other issue is that IF the original broker had taken the time to actually service the contract when the poo hit the fan, the client might also have been in a better position after 7 years.

[quote=babbling looney]

Texas A&M did a study that proved that 99% of the time, investments that lose money would've been better off in a savings account

This is true , but my point was that IF the annuity had contained the living benefit guarantees that some on this forum are poo pooing as being of no value, the client would have been way ahead of the game instead of back at square one after 7 years of being worried about their investment.

The other issue is that IF the original broker had taken the time to actually service the contract when the poo hit the fan, the client might also have been in a better position after 7 years.

[/quote]

You're so sexy when you get defensive.

You're so sexy when you get defensive."

BH- Babs is too classy for you bro. Stick to the trash on the South Side buddy- more your cup of tea...