80K or EDJ?
Like most everyone on this board, I am a newcomer to the financial services world (My first post as well). I am approaching my last interview with EDJ and feel confident about my chances. I have been studying these boards and interviewing people for weeks about the FA job at EDJ and it is getting decision time. I am currently 26 and a sales consultant that is making around 80K give or take, but I am getting close to the ceiling with my current position. However I do travel at least two nights a week and looking to settle down a little more. The only way to make more is to get promoted and move, no longer a desire of mine. I am starting to realize the hard work that is required for this job and I know I can do it (I just have to man up a little more), but I wanted to get some opinions out there about direction or just really good advice. I have been talking with about 5 different EDJ reps and everyone has the same synposis, put in the work and you will be rewarded, along with I wish I would have done this at your age. So with that said take the 80K or go with EDJ?
The only bad thing about EDJ is that your client’s cars will get dinged by shopping carts, right outside your office.
I don’t know why just EDJ, I know I should check my options, but everything keeps pointing back to them. From friends investments, family members, etc, all have their money with them and all have very good experiences. The one thing I have learned through all of this is that it is never the firm who investors like or dislike it is the FA that drives the business. I am also looking at a small community back home and this seems to be the best option. I could do my job for a long time, but it’s not my passion, helping people and finances are, that’s why I think I can excel, but I know it is extremely hard work.
I sincerely appreciate all the advice. This is great, I am so happy I found this website. I am a very hard and smart worker, but I look at the success rate and it makes me scratch my head, but then again sales isn't for everyone. I have had 4+ years experience, but it is calling on businesses and some indiviuals. I have done over 100+ seminars, wrote territory newsletters, made sales pitches, etc, with a very large private company (the largest). I am debt free with a little money saved up and if I need to make a move, it is getting time. I just need a little more of a kick in the pants. By the way, I was a B and C student.
[quote=NCTiger]Like most everyone on this board, I am a newcomer to the financial services world (My first post as well). I am approaching my last interview with EDJ and feel confident about my chances. I have been studying these boards and interviewing people for weeks about the FA job at EDJ and it is getting decision time. I am currently 26 and a sales consultant that is making around 80K give or take, but I am getting close to the ceiling with my current position. However I do travel at least two nights a week and looking to settle down a little more. The only way to make more is to get promoted and move, no longer a desire of mine. I am starting to realize the hard work that is required for this job and I know I can do it (I just have to man up a little more), but I wanted to get some opinions out there about direction or just really good advice. I have been talking with about 5 different EDJ reps and everyone has the same synposis, put in the work and you will be rewarded, along with I wish I would have done this at your age. So with that said take the 80K or go with EDJ?[/quote] This sounds very similar to were I was a few months ago. I’m 25 making $75,000 in my sales related job, and while I didn’t travel every week I spent 8 weeks on the road last year (in one or two week blocks). I’m making the jump to EDJ with a start date of Aug 25. It is going to be a major pay cut for me so I had to put a lot of money in the bank to be able to finance the move. I suggest you do the same.
I think i will be okay there, I have good support behind me, and hardly any expenses. Why did you make the jump?
I’m no expert and like River King I will be strating in the next 30 days, but the general consensus on here seems to be that if you live in:
small town USA then go with Jones. larger city, go with a wirehouse like SB, ML, MS. PS: I'm not sure about Jones' policy, but you may want to consider somewhere else if all your friends and family are there because you may not be able to take them from another FA in the same company.As a generality, if you make all decisions based upon what will be best for you 5 years from now, you can’t go wrong.
I’m not interested in swapping business, yet… I have heard Thanksgiving dinner tastes different when you control the money, I just want to make the leap, I have the desire, but maybe a little skiddish. (Although I will tell you I do have an ace in the hole - a brother who is a doctor who is looking for a broker!)
NC-
Sounds like a good move for you. As someone mentioned if you are in (or near) a major city, you might consider a wirehouse. If you are in a very suburban or rural area without a lot of wirehouses, Jones would be a great deal. Based on your work history, I think you would be fine.I appreciate the good advice!
I’m making the jump because in my business just like in the FA business it’s 60+ hour weeks in the beginning. However in my line of work those hours will never change. I planned on working in the finance industry years ago, but life events kind of lead me to my current job. Now that I’m established and have a family it’s time to go after the career I wanted. I am motivated and excited about making the move, but I am also so nervous.
Minus the family, we have similar situations. I work all the time, mostly meaningless corporate emails, you know what I am talking about, I also deal with a large percentage of people who don’t care about their business, strange, yes I know. Plus my quota’s are always changing, i don’t even know how my pay is calcualted any more, I just go out work hard, get a check and hope for the best, very dis-engaging. There use to be a formula. Crazy isn’t it.
I’m glad you have an “ace in the hole,” but I can tell you that many, many people have failed because they came into the business thinking their grandmother with $6 million would be their career-maker. Investing six million dollars will provide you with a good month or two, but that’s as far as it’ll go.
I made the mistake of rounding up all my family and friends from day one. I put together pretty little portfolios for them and after about nine months--BAM!--the market began it's decline. Now I regret that I have them as clients. Every single time I see them they ask me about their accounts and tell me how scared and upset they are. It's put quite a strain on many of my relationships. My advice: let someone else handle your family and friends' money.I agree per my comment above about dinner tasting different, I know its hard work and very few people make it.
NC Tiger in general I would strongly suggest not having family and close friends as clients. That being said after some experience " under your belt " less of an issue.
Hard for many people to remove the emotional part of business and with family/friends it can and does become difficult. IT IS PERSONAL and from experience it does not stop at the office. Agree with Borker Boy on this issue.[quote=Borker Boy]I’m glad you have an “ace in the hole,” but I can tell you that many, many people have failed because they came into the business thinking their grandmother with $6 million would be their career-maker. Investing six million dollars will provide you with a good month or two, but that’s as far as it’ll go.
I made the mistake of rounding up all my family and friends from day one. I put together pretty little portfolios for them and after about nine months--BAM!--the market began it's decline. Now I regret that I have them as clients. Every single time I see them they ask me about their accounts and tell me how scared and upset they are. It's put quite a strain on many of my relationships. My advice: let someone else handle your family and friends' money.[/quote] It's too bad you didn't put them in a variable annuity. They'd probably be happier since their guaranteed income would be going up despite this market.NC Tiger - Pay close attention to Ice’s advise on : " it will probably just FOOL YOU into thinking you are doing well for a few months". Have seen that happen more than once after selling family/friends. They were all different they claimed and unfortunately they all ended up in the same place. Gone.
[quote=snaggletooth][quote=Borker Boy]I’m glad you have an “ace in the hole,” but I can tell you that many, many people have failed because they came into the business thinking their grandmother with $6 million would be their career-maker. Investing six million dollars will provide you with a good month or two, but that’s as far as it’ll go.
I made the mistake of rounding up all my family and friends from day one. I put together pretty little portfolios for them and after about nine months--BAM!--the market began it's decline. Now I regret that I have them as clients. Every single time I see them they ask me about their accounts and tell me how scared and upset they are. It's put quite a strain on many of my relationships. My advice: let someone else handle your family and friends' money.[/quote] It's too bad you didn't put them in a variable annuity. They'd probably be happier since their guaranteed income would be going up despite this market. [/quote] My mother-in-law is in a VA, and, unfortunately, no matter how many times and ways I explain to her that her income is guaranteed, she still tells me at least twice a week how concerned she is about her account value being down so much. Those additional annuity expenses, coupled with a down market, are really taking a toll on her account balance, i.e., the amout she can "walk away" with versus what she invested. And that's all she seems to care about.[quote=iceco1d]Ack Borker Boy!
NC Tiger, I disagree with Borkers F&F statement. Mind you, he has far more tenure in the biz than me [just as a caveat]. Here is my take on friends & family - don't expect them to make or break you...unless they are in an extremely well-to-do network, it will probably just fool you into thinking you are doing well for a few months. However, I truly feel that I am the best advisor in my area, and that I can and will do the best for my clients. If I feel I am the best, why on Earth would I want my closest friends and my family members to go to a less advisor? Now, if you aren't the best, by all means, do NOT "practice" on your family and friends. But once you are confident in your abilities, why wouldn't you want them as clients? I know that when the going gets tough, like it is now, I want my f&f to have the best advice available.[/quote] To be frank, I don't necessarily feel that I'm the best advisor in my area. Heck, I had no experience in this business prior to a little more than two years ago, and I have to believe that there are other guys who are "better" at this than I am, i.e., more experienced. If that's not the case, that's pretty scary. (Is it likely that a doctor, lawyer or CPA with two years' experience is better at their job than those with 15 or 20?) Either way, I'd be perfectly comfortable--relieved, actually--if my F&F were with another Jones FA. We receive identical training, and are more than likely going to put together nearly identical portfolios. No rocket science here...just American Funds![quote=Borker Boy][quote=snaggletooth][quote=Borker Boy]I’m glad you have an “ace in the hole,” but I can tell you that many, many people have failed because they came into the business thinking their grandmother with $6 million would be their career-maker. Investing six million dollars will provide you with a good month or two, but that’s as far as it’ll go.
I made the mistake of rounding up all my family and friends from day one. I put together pretty little portfolios for them and after about nine months--BAM!--the market began it's decline. Now I regret that I have them as clients. Every single time I see them they ask me about their accounts and tell me how scared and upset they are. It's put quite a strain on many of my relationships. My advice: let someone else handle your family and friends' money.[/quote] It's too bad you didn't put them in a variable annuity. They'd probably be happier since their guaranteed income would be going up despite this market. [/quote] My mother-in-law is in a VA, and, unfortunately, no matter how many times and ways I explain to her that her income is guaranteed, she still tells me at least twice a week how concerned she is about her account value being down so much. Those additional annuity expenses, coupled with a down market, are really taking a toll on her account balance, i.e., the amout she can "walk away" with versus what she invested. And that's all she seems to care about.[/quote] Well hopefully your wife is able to comprehend things. I would tell her, "Look Ma, if we weren't in this VA, this little downturn you've been hearing about would be like crashing a car without airbags. But you will be fine because we were prepared enough to get you airbags for this situation". She also needs to hear this, "If you need to draw income from your accounts, the most important thing to you will be your guaranteed income amount. That is this number here. Notice how it is $50,000 more than this number?". Say these things slowly. The annuity expenses are not going to make your account values look drastically different. What insurance company is it with? What riders are on it? What sub-accounts is it invested in?[quote=Borker Boy]
Either way, I'd be perfectly comfortable--relieved, actually--if my F&F were with another Jones FA. We receive identical training, and are more than likely going to put together nearly identical portfolios. No rocket science here...just American Funds! [/quote] The best EDJ reps are the ones who are masters of splitting breakpoints.So I’ve heard.
Put me in the school of thought that would wade very carefully into F&F business. Leave current accounts where they are for the most part. Start with smaller amounts/new money and use plain vanilla/simple investments. Over time, if you do a reasonable job with smaller amounts, you’ll get the whole pie later (and be better equipped to handle it). Besides, new money is where you make the best GDC/AUM, and not having those large F&F accounts will keep you hungry and active when you need it most.
[quote=snaggletooth]
The annuity expenses are not going to make your account values look drastically different. [/quote]Borker,
Have you made any changes to the portfolios for your F&F's?? Maybe thats what there looking for instead of buy and hold and hold and hold as the market deteriates...If you sit on your hands because Jones says to...well..it makes you look like you don't know what your doing. If they bring it up again...say...we can move some or all to a mmkt....BUT...there will be a time in the near future were I will call and say..."its time to dca back into the market...(if you haven't been dcaing your new money, now is the time to start) You can puke history of the markets to your clients all you want, but in the end all they see is less and less and less. Instead of hiding, get out in front of the situation and be proactive. If your mother in law is scared... They won't blame you for the market, they'll blame you because you didn't do anything but tell her/them to hold on. Especially friends and family...they think because of the connection, you will do more than any other advisor, but after awhile, your credibility will suffer big time...[quote=Borker Boy][quote=snaggletooth]
The annuity expenses are not going to make your account values look drastically different. [/quote] [/quote] I'm curious to know what annuity companies you use and what riders you put on your contracts. I'd even like to know what sub-accounts you pick. I think your world of annuities is much smaller than mine.Much smaller, but Spiff will jump in here and say…"we have access to everthing out there, we just choose to work with 2 or 3 preferreds, because there the best and better than yours and always the best and we’re better because we only have 2-3 of the best , which are better the your best…because we are teh only ones who get to use the best…because we are Jones and we are the best…
[quote=bspears]Borker,
Have you made any changes to the portfolios for your F&F's?? Maybe thats what there looking for instead of buy and hold and hold and hold as the market deteriates...If you sit on your hands because Jones says to...well..it makes you look like you don't know what your doing. If they bring it up again...say...we can move some or all to a mmkt....BUT...there will be a time in the near future were I will call and say..."its time to dca back into the market...(if you haven't been dcaing your new money, now is the time to start) You can puke history of the markets to your clients all you want, but in the end all they see is less and less and less. Instead of hiding, get out in front of the situation and be proactive. If your mother in law is scared... They won't blame you for the market, they'll blame you because you didn't do anything but tell her/them to hold on. Especially friends and family...they think because of the connection, you will do more than any other advisor, but after awhile, your credibility will suffer big time...[/quote] So, what if Borker does what you suggest and moves some money to MMKT. Right now earning 1.5%. At what point will he be able to convince his F&F to move back in? 6 months after the bottom? 12? 18? Didn't you talk to people in the middle of 2004 that hadn't moved back in yet? Didn't they miss one of the best years in the last 10? The reality is that you can't call the bottom, just like you can't call the top. You miss the first 6 months of a post bear rally and you'll miss the majority of it. If you want them to make a change, tell them to add more. NOW. Don't let THEIR fear determine how YOU run their portfolio. If you do, you'll soon be answering the question "why has my best friend's advisor been averaging 8% for her, while you're only averaging 5%?"Guys, I didn’t mean to bring up a brawl about annuities. I have no plans of selling my freinds and family. If it got extremely bad, maybe. I am just wondering whether to take the plunge. I met with an Jones FA for about an hour today, who has been in the business for about 6 years, no previous experience. He got me really juiced about the rewards for hard work. Took me monthly through his commissions from 6 years ago to today and it looks nice! Nice trend upwards. Totally worth the effort, all through door knocking!
NCTiger, you sound foolish. I’m not saying this because of Jones. Rather, I’m saying it because it sounds as if you are going to go with Jones without looking into all of your alternatives. Look at all of your alternatives. If Jones is the best, then go with them.
I agree 100%. I was leaning the same route toward EDJ until I spoke to a person I respected who is a large investor. He directed me to speak with ML. I had multiple conversations with ML and decided it would be a better fit. I do not regret the decision whatsoever. Check out all your options before you make your final decision. If it were me I would call up the manager of the local wirehouse offices and see who is willing to meet with me.NCTiger, you sound foolish. I’m not saying this because of Jones. Rather, I’m saying it because it sounds as if you are going to go with Jones without looking into all of your alternatives. Look at all of your alternatives. If Jones is the best, then go with them.
[quote=bspears]Borker,
Have you made any changes to the portfolios for your F&F's?? Maybe thats what there looking for instead of buy and hold and hold and hold as the market deteriates...If you sit on your hands because Jones says to...well..it makes you look like you don't know what your doing. If they bring it up again...say...we can move some or all to a mmkt....BUT...there will be a time in the near future were I will call and say..."its time to dca back into the market... (if you haven't been dcaing your new money, now is the time to start) You can puke history of the markets to your clients all you want, but in the end all they see is less and less and less. Instead of hiding, get out in front of the situation and be proactive. If your mother in law is scared... They won't blame you for the market, they'll blame you because you didn't do anything but tell her/them to hold on. Especially friends and family...they think because of the connection, you will do more than any other advisor, but after awhile, your credibility will suffer big time...[/quote] Holy sh1t! Are you being serious? Your answer to my F&F's concerns is to allow them to pressure me into doing something? If they bring it up again, tell them we'll move it to money market and then DCA back in when I tell them to? And, they'll blame me because I didn't do anything but tell them to hold on? Are you delusional?!?! It's one thing to rebalance, it's another to jump in and out of the market based on my opinion of when we're at the bottom. I expected more from you, dude. That's disturbing.Borker Boy,
Dude, are you going to get around to telling me what crap VA you used for your mother in law? I'm curious to know what garbage you can offer, how much it costs, and what sub-accounts you use. I think it's your inventory that causes your distaste of annuities.AIG SunAmerica Polaris Platinum II-A share with Marketlock.
So Borker, we can just agree your mother in law could put her money at E trade, set up a rebalancing quarterly and cut you out of the picture, because you don't manage money...you sit on it..and make sales calls. This whole buy and hold your firm blows sounds good in theory, but guaranteed the conversation your mother in law and wife are having, aren't real flattering. Good luck with the buy and hold..it will come back....I think someone on here said something about the market always goes up...And yes the clients I put into fixed rates last August are STILL happy, and the ones who declined my offer..well ...I documented the conversation....and we may be having a conversation in October about a move back....How many of your buds have you been buying BAC for on the way down...down ...down...down...down....down....I bet the up day had you feeling real good yesterday...
Wow...okay so now everyone should be buying a balanced ETF portfolio, set up quarterly rebalancing, add money when they can and live a happy life. Go on financial website, answer a few questions and out spits how much my wife and I need to be saving to have x amount at retirement. Then, I can go to Vanguards website and plug in my age, risk tolerance, income and bammmmmmmm.....out spits my allocation mix....damn...why the hell does anyone need Spiff or Borker....Should I believe Vanguard vs Spiff or Borker or even Spiff and Borker together...Are you good money managers or just good salesman...Resume builder...I am proficient at Doorknocking...
Let see…Monday…a lady walks into my office…throws her statements on my desk. Balance at the first of the year 117k. June 30th 93,379. She said her dumbass broker says to hold on and it will come back…“I want it out of there”…he hasn’t done shit and I keep losing money"…hmmm…I wonder if this is borkers mom in law…I wonder if the broker would have said…You know Margaret, I can see your a little scared right now… and the statement doesn’t look good, and my training tells me to hold on, rebalance back to our original allocations. Lets agree to put half your money in an insured mmkt and reallocate the rest back to our original allocation. Lets get back together in say 30-60 days and reevaluate how your feeling, if your still scared, maybe we should discuss your risk tolerance. See, here in the client profile you filled out you stated you didn’t feel a move was necessary unless there was a 25% decline in the account. Also you stated this money wasn’t going to be used for 11-20 years…see here where you marked this. Mam, sometimes we overestimate our tolerance, because we’ve never had to go through a major downturn. Some think the market always goes up…
Who are you talking to?
Is this last post what you actually did to this lady? If so, you're more stupid than I originally thought. That lady is letting her emotions drive her decision making process. That's always a recipe for disaster. Emotions never tell us the right thing to do. It's usuallly just the opposite. Sell when things are bad, buy when thing are great. The wise advisor doesn't let his client's emotions dictate his asset allocation strategy. Because he believes he is correct and has more knowledge of the markets than his clients do. Borker - that annuity is a good one. You mother in law is just nervous like everyone else right now. She won't be as hard on you when the market goes back up. As it always has.[quote=bspears]
So Borker, we can just agree your mother in law could put her money at E trade, set up a rebalancing quarterly and cut you out of the picture, because you don't manage money...you sit on it..and make sales calls. This whole buy and hold your firm blows sounds good in theory, but guaranteed the conversation your mother in law and wife are having, aren't real flattering. Good luck with the buy and hold..it will come back....I think someone on here said something about the market always goes up...And yes the clients I put into fixed rates last August are STILL happy, and the ones who declined my offer..well ...I documented the conversation....and we may be having a conversation in October about a move back....How many of your buds have you been buying BAC for on the way down...down ...down...down...down....down....I bet the up day had you feeling real good yesterday...
[/quote]No, I am absolutely, positively NOT a money manager, and I refuse to pretend or proclaim otherwise. I don't have the background, training, etc., to determine which asset classes I should move in and out of and when.
I know a guy who moved his clients to cash several months ago and is planning on going back into the market at 10,800. We got to 10,900, but right now we're 650 points higher. Uh oh...now what? Should he get back in now or wait until it drops again? What if he makes his new number 11,300, goes back in, and it drops to 10,700? How well do you think he's sleeping these days? Oh, and before I forget...exactly where did you receive your training to become a bona fide money manager? (And I'll bet my paychecks for the remainder of 2008 that you're NOT a CFA!)As for the Polaris product - it has sub account offerings from SunAmerica, Alliance Bernstein, American, Columbia, Davis, Edge Asset Management, Federated, Franklin, Goldman, JPMorgan, Lord Abbett, Marsico, MFS, Oppy, PIMCO, Putnam, Van Kampen, Wellington, and Wells Cap Mgmt. Management fees between .53 and 1.85 on the subaccounts. M&E of 85bps including admin fee. A share pricing schedule identical to most mutual funds. No surrender schedule or charges. ROA can be combined with MFD assets held with any of the Jones preferred fund families. MAV death bene included at no additional cost. Marketlock is a GWMB with a 50bps cost on the benefit base. They have other version of income benes too.
Not exactly what I would call a crap annuity.No I didn’t, but I guarantee you if the broker I took the acct from would have had this conversation I wouldn’t have seen this lady. See, you can blow this emotion thing all up…but the bottom line isyou’re working with THEIR money…not yours. What are you going to do if the market keeps heading down to 10000 or lower…are you still holding on. I have a client I took from someone back in 2003. At that time he had 270k. His broker let his acct ride from 900k to 270k…the whole time the broker kept saying…hold on…it will come back…blah blah blah and this guy would go in and say"man…should we do something here…I’m down 100k, 200k ,300k…and “Oh…Spiff, We can’t let our emotions dictate our accts…the market always goes up” and then he never heard from his broker again…I got his acct back to 570…I put all but 100k into short term cd’s last year…( I wish I would have moved all of it…)…WHAT REAL VALUE DO YOU BRING TO THE TABLE SPIFFY…REAL VALUE…THAT YOUR CLIENTS CAN’T GET ON A WEBSITE??? Can I predict tops and bottoms, no but if I have any intelligence I can manage accts along with emotions of my clients. I bet the clients you sold A shares to back in OCT 07 are reallllll happy with you and your hold on comments…order taker.
Borker, if the market breaks below 10800, watch out below. Can you handle it. You never said at what point the market was at when he pulled the guy out…was it 12300 or 12700 or 12000…so in essence he is still money ahead. You said a few months ago…so he missed the wonderful drop in June…that we all were saying “let’s just cancel June” He did…kudos. If you can’t manage money, then by all means transfer your accts to someone who can. This is your mother in laws money for God’s sake. Move out of the way, so your wife has something to inherit…I’d hate for you to be the one who sat and watched your friends money wither away…“Honey, lets just move our money from Borker and put into a CD”…“He’s so new at this…are we confident he knows what he is doing”
[quote=Spaceman Spiff]
As for the Polaris product - it has sub account offerings from SunAmerica, Alliance Bernstein, American, Columbia, Davis, Edge Asset Management, Federated, Franklin, Goldman, JPMorgan, Lord Abbett, Marsico, MFS, Oppy, PIMCO, Putnam, Van Kampen, Wellington, and Wells Cap Mgmt. Management fees between .53 and 1.85 on the subaccounts. M&E of 85bps including admin fee. A share pricing schedule identical to most mutual funds. No surrender schedule or charges. ROA can be combined with MFD assets held with any of the Jones preferred fund families. MAV death bene included at no additional cost. Marketlock is a GWMB with a 50bps cost on the benefit base. They have other version of income benes too.
Not exactly what I would call a crap annuity. [/quote] I was just curious what he was using. I never said the AIG product specifically was crap. What does it pay you guys? Thanks Borker by the way for sharing what you used.No I didn’t, but I guarantee you if the broker I took the acct from would have had this conversation I wouldn’t have seen this lady. See, you can blow this emotion thing all up…but the bottom line isyou’re working with THEIR money…not yours. What are you going to do if the market keeps heading down to 10000 or lower…are you still holding on. I have a client I took from someone back in 2003. At that time he had 270k. His broker let his acct ride from 900k to 270k…the whole time the broker kept saying…hold on…it will come back…blah blah blah and this guy would go in and say"man…should we do something here…I’m down 100k, 200k ,300k…and “Oh…Spiff, We can’t let our emotions dictate our accts…the market always goes up” and then he never heard from his broker again…I got his acct back to 570…I put all but 100k into short term cd’s last year…( I wish I would have moved all of it…)…WHAT REAL VALUE DO YOU BRING TO THE TABLE SPIFFY…REAL VALUE…THAT YOUR CLIENTS CAN’T GET ON A WEBSITE??? Can I predict tops and bottoms, no but if I have any intelligence I can manage accts along with emotions of my clients. I bet the clients you sold A shares to back in OCT 07 are reallllll happy with you and your hold on comments…order taker. You’re correct, they’re not real happy, but I believe I can speak for most Jonesers in that we don’t invest in A shares for people with a 9 month time horizon. Mutual funds are designed to be held just a hair longer than that. Market timer.
but gosh…didn’t you have any thoughts that maybe things were a little toppy…just a little…itsy bitsy bit…just a little…or were you so blind and wanting to make your freakin month…so you could brag about you net for the month. Keep spewing the company line…as you clients are thinkin…talkin…wispering…or I shoudl have said customers…I bet you felt just a little nervous when you invested all that money in CIB…but man you had to make your month…it will work out…the market always goes up.
I'm thorougly enjoying our little dialogue. We've definitely peeled back the onion on your method of running your clients' money...and it's DISTURBING!but gosh…didn’t you have any thoughts that maybe things were a little toppy…just a little…itsy bitsy bit…just a little…or were you so blind and wanting to make your freakin month…so you could brag about you net for the month. Actually, I had no flippin’ idea that we were at the top. No clue whatsoever. Thankfully, I don’t get paid to predict the highs and lows. I get paid to construct a well-balanced portfolio and do my very best to keep my clients invested during the tough times. Keep spewing the company line…as you clients are thinkin…talkin…wispering…or I shoudl have said customers…I bet you felt just a little nervous when you invested all that money in CIB…but man you had to make your month…it will work out…the market always goes up.
Lets do a poll of your clients vs my clients…who’s satisfied…Ice…why do you assume the averages will be this low…If I take my clients out of the markets at 13500 and move back in…lets say…after we drop below 11 again…even if it was 13k when I took some out or 12500…or do I leave my clients accts alone and ride my clients accts all the wayyyyy down…Borker you get paid to do what I could do online at Vanguard…don’t kid yourself…
Sounds like your clients are running your practice and your just pandering to their emotions to keep them happy. Of course I have to admit I chose my Doctor because he tells me I need to drink more beer, go out to eat more often and eliminate exercising from my routine. He also says I don’t need a prostrate exam either, which is great I never did liked to be digitally examined.
[quote=bspears]Lets do a poll of your clients vs my clients…who’s satisfied… I’d bet your clients are probably happier at the moment because you’re doing something, i.e., taking action, which is what their emotions are telling them to do. However, if we did a survey in 1, 3, 5 years from now–which I believe is a reasonable time frame–and you continue with your market-timing philosophy, I know I’ll be the hands down winner. Ice…why do you assume the averages will be this low…If I take my clients out of the markets at 13500 and move back in…lets say…after we drop below 11 again…even if it was 13k when I took some out or 12500…or do I leave my clients accts alone and ride my clients accts all the wayyyyy down…Borker you get paid to do what I could do online at Vanguard…don’t kid yourself…
I agree. And as I've said in the past, I honestly believe most folks are probably better off with low cost index funds without incurring a 2, 3, or 4% drag on their portfolio from guys like us who tell them they should pay us to put them with professonal money managers who'll outperform the indexes. It's really kind of pathetic, on our part, but this is what pays the bills for now. [/quote]Ahhh…the real question should be…who will get a referral…someone who road an acct down 20-30%…or lets do it this way. I have an acct with Borker mother in law and she decides to help the kid with his business…gives him 100k…to put into an annuity(its a good annuity, because its from Jones). 3 months down the road, I’m having an adult conversation with mother in law and we decide we would like to capture some of her upside and move to a more fixed situation…“this subprime mess is getting ugly now…but the majority of the resets will happen in 08”…Meanwhile, back at the Ed Jones office… Borker is happy as a lark, making phone calls…just had a great month…everythings good, the markets up…I’m feelin good…then WAMMMMMM…the market starts stair stepping down and down and down…mother in law is comparing what has been done with her MAJOR money and looking at her minor money and is wondering what is up with Borker…And Borker is bad mouthing the Adult broker for moving money to safety…meanwhile his wife is trying to be supportive, he even pulls out the yearly returns and shows his mother in law…see here…2001-2002…this great mutual fund was down…but WAMMM in 2003 it was up 525%…and that is why we need to buy and forget…I mean hold. But…he forgets to mention those are Jan-Dec numbers…he doesn’t even think to run the numbers from the date he actually invested the dollars…Then…a year down the road…adult advisor calls and says…hey I think we’re ready to tread back in. It may be a little bumping going…but I think we’ve dodged the big drop in the market…Margaret…do you know anyone who I could send a card to…yes…I sure do…My daughter has an IRA and …
Ahhh…the real question should be…who will get a referral…someone who road an acct down 20-30%…or lets do it this way. I have an acct with Borker mother in law and she decides to help the kid with his business…gives him 100k…to put into an annuity(its a good annuity, because its from Jones). 3 months down the road, I’m having an adult conversation with mother in law and we decide we would like to capture some of her upside and move to a more fixed situation…“this subprime mess is getting ugly now…but the majority of the resets will happen in 08”…Meanwhile, back at the Ed Jones office… Borker is happy as a lark, making phone calls…just had a great month…everythings good, the markets up…I’m feelin good…then WAMMMMMM…the market starts stair stepping down and down and down…mother in law is comparing what has been done with her MAJOR money and looking at her minor money and is wondering what is up with Borker…And Borker is bad mouthing the Adult broker for moving money to safety…meanwhile his wife is trying to be supportive, he even pulls out the yearly returns and shows his mother in law…see here…2001-2002…this great mutual fund was down…but WAMMM in 2003 it was up 525%…and that is why we need to buy and forget…I mean hold. But…he forgets to mention those are Jan-Dec numbers…he doesn’t even think to run the numbers from the date he actually invested the dollars…Then…a year down the road…adult advisor calls and says…hey I think we’re ready to tread back in. It may be a little bumping going…but I think we’ve dodged the big drop in the market… <----- And this is where your thinking, guessing, surmising, assuming, etc., kills your investor’s returns. So, you’ll get another referral and after a few years of your market-timing, they’ll have DIYer results minus your fees. This smacks of a Ponzi scheme, and I believe your business is what’s “stair stepping down and down and down…” Margaret…do you know anyone who I could send a card to…yes…I sure do…My daughter has an IRA and …
Borker, I'm going to lay off of you because it sounds like you've beat yourself up enough. But, if you want to be in this field and you're going to manage people's assets, then do it. To the client, it doesn't matter what paper you can pull out or how many times you tell them to hold on....to me (and it sounds like only me) non action to a clients concern is worse than missing a few percentages from the bottom.
How can you say I’m killing an investors return? I took people out in the 13’s and will move them back shortly. Please explain this to me…I sold high and plan to get in lower than they were before…what am I missing. Sell high, get in low…hmmm…IF YOU CAN’T THINK FOR YOURSELF, WHY ARE YOU HERE? Hell, even the accts I’ve received in the last 4-5 months have been put into CD’s and inflation protected bond funds…IF a DIYer gets his or his wifes money out in the 13’s and decided to put his money back in this month…well frankly he’s done a better job than you…and just think, he did it for free…
ICE, I ddin’t say I took them out at 14xxx and will put them exactly back in at the bottom. I was just happy the market came back after last Augusts meltdown…so I coudl step back and look at what was on the horizon. THats all, no more no less. In this particular situation, yes I’ve tried timing the market…and have felt dam good about it. THere were many, many people saying get to safety last fall, and probably just as many saying…ah…the subprime is very little of overall mortgages…as a matter of fact…I think LPL was on that side of the trade and still probably is…Once I think, yes think, the markets have calmed down and I can give a good reason as to why the markets will head higher, I will tread back in and continue on my normal course of asset allocation, until the next bubble. Unfortunately, its not all EDJ’s.
Just after the first of the year I was having a conversation with a friend of mine at MS. We were discussing the markets and I asked what he was doing with his clients money. Nothing he said...We've seen this before. He,just as you guys have, flipped out when I said I was moving people to virtually a cash position....Your going to be sorry...the markets are going to rally after the first quarter....well...lets just say he's not laughing right now...and I am. I did tell him the last time we talked that I would give him a call when I was moving clients back into the market... Did you ever think it wouldn't be in the best interest of the B/D's and their buddies the Mutual funds to have clients moved to cash...ICE…if I remember correctly Goldman profited highly by the downturn. I bet theres a tremendous amount of managers who predicted the pullback and allocated money. I bet some of the very wealthy in this world saw this coming and were either advised or advised their people to make a change. Whose the guy in Chicago who sold his reit empire at the top…luck I guess…right…Wealthy get wealthier and the poor get poorer…Maybe ICE, you should study whats going on around you in the world and markets. So…what do you think will happen once the Olympics are over? DO you guys read about your profession or are you just salespeople makin a livin or just payin the bills for now…I guess the people who shorted the market were wrong also…
Time Out On " The Extreme Kick Boxing " Happens and it will happen again and again and again.
Market timing is at best an " art " and definitely is not a science.ICE, I disagree with you on the DIYer…maybe 10 years ago…but not now. THeres enough info on fidelitys, Kiplingers websites to develop an allocation model based on answering a few simple questions. Lets face it…they can do the same thing on a website as the local advisor who was working at a used car dealership the year before. I was in that category back in 2001 (not used cars)…but if you don’t bring something to the table other than allocating funds with bar charts and American Funds…whats the value. IF your in this business today…with 30 other jokers in the same town calling on your mother in law…and can’t set yourself away from the pack…good luck because your clients become trading cards. You get one of theres and they get one of yours…
Didn't we already have this conversation once? This is all looking very familiar.
Well, I greatly enjoy the back and forth and for now will leave my clients on the sideline drawing some interest. I do apologize to Borker for the rant. He seems to be hitting a rough spot and having been there done that...I know its difficult. I'm glad I call the shots in my practice, and can take the heat if I'm wrong.
Not at all…I cried a little…looked in the mirror and pumped myself up…made an appt with a shrink…drank clorox and shaved my butt…other than that…I’m good…
[quote=bspears]
Well, I greatly enjoy the back and forth and for now will leave my clients on the sideline drawing some interest. I do apologize to Borker for the rant. He seems to be hitting a rough spot and having been there done that...I know its difficult. I'm glad I call the shots in my practice, and can take the heat if I'm wrong.
[/quote] No offense taken, whatsoever. I enjoyed the discourse. I've learned more on this forum than through all of the EDJ training I've received over the past 2.5 years.ouch…Maybe they need Spiff back in New IR Training, he could use a steady paycheck. Stick with ICE, you’ll go far. FYI, my butt is not hairy…just a joke…
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