Cfp
I am currently looking into getting my CFP.
I run an office in a small town of about 10,000 with 1 other competitor who has been in the business for 20 more years than I. I thought that getting a CFP would help me differentiate myself from him as we are both Edward Jones advisors.
Has anyone gotten their CFP and successfully marketed the education? Has it brought in new business? Anyone thought it was a waste of time? Thanks.I don’t see the point if you are against a guy with the same stuff… I think it would be different if you were against a person with a different platform.
Might help with the other letter crowd(CPA,JD etc).MY opinion is that it helps with the lettered crowd a great deal (I have been told this specifically by some professionals), but only a small amount with the public. So if the plan is to develop several relationships with professionals, it can only help. However, if you are just going after “five-and-dime” business, and won’t have many professional referral sources, don’t bother.
Anyone on here have a CFP
Nope but a friend of mine does. He said it helps creates instant credibility with Letter people other than that people don’t care.
I hear ICA performs much better if you are a CFP…hey wait a sec…awwww I couldn’t resist!
I think it is worth it, but you have to be all in or its a waste of time. You don’t want to spend all the time and money and not be able to pass the board exam. Like others have said some people will care, some will not, but like anything in this business you have to sell it to people. If you are in a competitive situation you can check if the other guy has it and leverage that in your presentation an why its important, all it takes is a few million dollar accounts a year extra to make it well worth it. There are plenty of million dollar producers without it and plenty of struggling guys with it but I think it helps. Sometimes the great sales guys don’t think they need it while the intravert guy gets it, the sales guy will still get more business but if the sales guy got it also it would only help him.
[quote=BioFreeze]Gay = CFP
Straight = No CFP
Piker = CFP
Producer = No CFP
[/quote]
What’s gay about further enhancing your knowledge about our business? It really bugs me when people just knock it because they don’t want to do it, which is fine as well. Just don’t knock others who actually want to expand their knowledge base.
And the argument of “I can research anything I need to lookup” doesn’t
fly. Bottom line, you don’t know what you don’t know. Example . . . I
was sitting next to a broker who was in the business longer than me and
we were both opening accounts over the phone while he was opening an
IRA account for an existing client over the phone. I just got off my
call and hear the tail end of his convo. He asks for beneficiary
information and the guy couldn’t come up with one, so the guy says
"Don’t worry, I’ll just name your estate as the beneficiary". So he
just made an asset that that passes outside of probate now pass through
probate because he didn’t know any better. Again, you don’t know what
you don’t know.
I’ve had my CFP for a while, and it does come in handy occationally. Most people don’t ask, but I certainly tell. I’ve had a couple competitive situations where I will ask the client to research what a CFP is and see why it makes sense to work with one. It was a reasonably tough exam, but I figured I would knock it out before I got too old. If you’ve got 10-30 years left in a career, there’s no question it will pay for itself.
I think it’s pretty fair to say it’s not the $2000 for the cost of the exam; it’s the lost productivity/lifestyle while taking it. The CFP-takers I know saw their numbers drop pretty significantly and were challenged by the information. Could Rankstocks put a number on that?
(FWIW, both the Jonesers I know significantly increased productivity. Coincidence or not.)Here’s my take - the people that I know that have it have leveraged it. One of my friends is the president of the local CFP chapter (or whatever it is called), he regularly teaches at the local college, and is often asked to guest lecture for local organizations. He said it ALL come from his involvement in the CFP chapter (maybe the FPA?). So it’s not as if clients flock to him BECAUSE he has the CFP, it’s that a lot of doors opened for him because he has it.
Look at it this way, who would be held in higher regard....the local CPA, or the "Tax Preparer" at H&R Block? The "Tax Preparer" may actually do excellent work, but nobody will ever know unless they become a client. Most people aren't going to the H&R Block "Tax Preparer" for advice and requesting him as a guest lecturer, etc.Why does it make sense to work with one?(honestly).. And then based on your answer, does it matter if that advisor has no fiduciary responsibility..?I’ve had my CFP for a while, and it does come in handy occationally. Most people don’t ask, but I certainly tell. I’ve had a couple competitive situations where I will ask the client to research what a CFP is and see why it makes sense to work with one. It was a reasonably tough exam, but I figured I would knock it out before I got too old. If you’ve got 10-30 years left in a career, there’s no question it will pay for itself.
No offense but I think you got out sold… The guy who was a cfp knows probably that in his area there are only so many CFPs, so why not use that as a line.
To my knowledge(looked into it briefly) there is an educational requirement(takes 1 year). Then you can take the test.. I might be wrong about that. Was also told by some people who have passed it that most of it is common sense in the beginning.The knowledge is a good thing. That's not the issue that non-CFP advisors have with the CFP. Everyone is in favor of expanding one's knowledge base. That's not the same as being in favor of the CFP.[quote=BioFreeze]Gay = CFP
Straight = No CFP
Piker = CFP
Producer = No CFP
[/quote]
What’s gay about further enhancing your knowledge about our business? It really bugs me when people just knock it because they don’t want to do it, which is fine as well. Just don’t knock others who actually want to expand their knowledge base.
What makes you think that the guy doesn't know that? Since his client doesn't care what happens when he dies, why should he care about probate? If he ever does care, the beneficiary can be changed.And the argument of “I can research anything I need to lookup” doesn’t fly. Bottom line, you don’t know what you don’t know. Example . . . I was sitting next to a broker who was in the business longer than me and we were both opening accounts over the phone while he was opening an IRA account for an existing client over the phone. I just got off my call and hear the tail end of his convo. He asks for beneficiary information and the guy couldn’t come up with one, so the guy says “Don’t worry, I’ll just name your estate as the beneficiary”. So he just made an asset that that passes outside of probate now pass through probate because he didn’t know any better. Again, you don’t know what you don’t know.
[quote=RealWorld]
B24 - Your comment about how you use your CFP is really what I am thinking. If I can sell it as a very important piece of knowledge then I think it would be worth it. I had a situation where I was in a competitive situation and the prospects asked if I was a CFP b/c another CFP that they meet with told them that they didn't have to work with him if they didn't like what he had to say but he advised them that they must work with a CFP and that was the basis of him getting the account. I certainly don't want to pay for the courses and then not pass the test. What was the time committment like in study for those who have it?[/quote] There is simply no question that you got outsold. Every year, the CFP question comes up less often in my practice. The last time that I was in the situation like you described, I think that my conversation went something like this: Prospect: "Joe Schmoe says that I should work with a CFP if I don't work with him. Are you a CFP?" Me: "Heck no. Do you know what a CFP allows Joe to do?" Prospect: "No." Me: "A CFP is a beginner's designation that gives the advisor the ability to do absolutely nothing. It's done for marketing purposes." Prospect:"But I thought that a CFP was needed to be certified to do financial planning." Me: "Nope. The CFP allows him to do nothing. In order to be able to charge fees for financial planning, one must possess their series 65. This is what gives someone the ability to do financial planning for a fee. He's telling you to use a CFP because he knows that most veteran advisors like myself aren't willing to waste our time with a designation that neither helps us nor our clients. It's all marketing." Me: "What's your biggest financial concern?" (I then shut up.)I just want the little ® by my name.
[quote=RealWorld]
B24 - Your comment about how you use your CFP is really what I am thinking. If I can sell it as a very important piece of knowledge then I think it would be worth it. I had a situation where I was in a competitive situation and the prospects asked if I was a CFP b/c another CFP that they meet with told them that they didn't have to work with him if they didn't like what he had to say but he advised them that they must work with a CFP and that was the basis of him getting the account. I certainly don't want to pay for the courses and then not pass the test. What was the time committment like in study for those who have it?[/quote] First off, I was explaining how a friend of mine uses it. I do not have it. However, my point was more to show that it appears that the most effective "marketing" use of the designation (as was further highlighted by a subsequent post) was by actually going out and taking advantage of it somehow. Just sitting back and assuming people will call you because you have a CFP is sort of silly. But if having the designation leads to speaking engagements, lectures, etc., thus basically giving you an entre' into more activity, then it can only help. But I would suggest that two people giving a speech, both appearing to sound knowledgable and are good speakers, have equal shot at "impressing" an audience. But the CFP may have opened the door for you in the first place.My .02…if your new in the business, less than 5 years, don’t even think about it. You’d be fired because of low production before you sat for the test. If you want to compete with the other EDJ dude in town, go indy or go to another broker dealer.
My reason for pursuing the designation is purely for knowledge and credibility for things I want to accomplish down the road. My production is fine and increasing every year, so its not a production angle. I have worked hard for a referring network of CPA's, which is allowing me to focus on the material. It takes a LOT of time and committment to stay on course. If you want the designation, go for it. If you don't...then don't. Who cares...Anonymous - I certainly got outsold but I really don’t like how you explain CFP to your clients/prospects. It really isn’t very accurate. The fact that recieving a CFP does not qualify you to do any different form of trading isn’t the point. The point is education and if clients care that you are that educated.
Your explanation may be the most effective way to handle the objection but it is not an honest answer.[quote=RealWorld]Anonymous - I certainly got outsold but I really don’t like how you explain CFP to your clients/prospects. It really isn’t very accurate. The fact that recieving a CFP does not qualify you to do any different form of trading isn’t the point. The point is education and if clients care that you are that educated.
Your explanation may be the most effective way to handle the objection but it is not an honest answer. [/quote] You need to analyze why you think the way you think. You probably don't have a very good opinion about yourself. The CFP mark allows you to use their MARK! That's it. Now, you're talking about the education as if people who DON'T have the CFP don't know what they're doing. It's proof that you read some books and took some exams. Well, what do you call Continuing Education? (Yes, some CE is too easy to do online, but that's what the CFP is. It's CE with a designation.) It's stupid. It's also stupid to be ignorant on what the CFP board expects you to do as a CFP certificate holder. The Series 65 is the only license you need to charge fees for financial planning or investment management. There is nothing else required to DO the job. Now, I will tell you this: Those that hold the CFP don't know any better or do anything differently than those who don't hold it. That's why it's a BEGINNER'S designation. Want the advanced stuff? Try ChFC, CLU, CFA, CIMA.It's like driving a car. You have the car and the license. You can hop in and figure out how things operate as you go or you can read the owners manual first or you can read it after you decide you can't operate a manual transmission.
Do you need proof that you read the owners manual? No, that's just personal preference. One does not make you a better or a worse driver then the other.[quote=LockEDJ]I think it’s pretty fair to say it’s not the $2000 for the cost of the exam; it’s the lost productivity/lifestyle while taking it. The CFP-takers I know saw their numbers drop pretty significantly and were challenged by the information. Could Rankstocks put a number on that?
(FWIW, both the Jonesers I know significantly increased productivity. Coincidence or not.)[/quote]The "lost productivity" argument is not valid for everybody. I took my courses on Fri night till 9pm and Sat morning from 8-4pm for a year every other weekend. Didn't really study at all for the entire year during the week; did a little bit on my off weekends. Come test time, I started studying 6 weeks out; 1-2 hours after work (8-10pm) and on weekends. Took the week of the exam off, so those were my only days that affected my income, no different than taking any week off like a vacation. People in my course who weren't in the business struggled a lot with the info but being in the business helped a lot. Yeah it was challenging and I learned a lot but it's not rocket science.
[quote=RealWorld]Anonymous - I certainly got outsold but I really don’t like how you explain CFP to your clients/prospects. It really isn’t very accurate. The fact that recieving a CFP does not qualify you to do any different form of trading isn’t the point. The point is education and if clients care that you are that educated.
Your explanation may be the most effective way to handle the objection but it is not an honest answer. [/quote] Sure it is... it is the exact opposite pitch of programs that want you to spend money on the CFP.[quote=Gordon Ramsey][quote=RealWorld]Anonymous - I certainly got outsold but I really don’t like how you explain CFP to your clients/prospects. It really isn’t very accurate. The fact that recieving a CFP does not qualify you to do any different form of trading isn’t the point. The point is education and if clients care that you are that educated.
Your explanation may be the most effective way to handle the objection but it is not an honest answer. [/quote] You need to analyze why you think the way you think. You probably don't have a very good opinion about yourself. The CFP mark allows you to use their MARK! That's it. Now, you're talking about the education as if people who DON'T have the CFP don't know what they're doing. It's proof that you read some books and took some exams. Well, what do you call Continuing Education? (Yes, some CE is too easy to do online, but that's what the CFP is. It's CE with a designation.) It's stupid. It's also stupid to be ignorant on what the CFP board expects you to do as a CFP certificate holder. The Series 65 is the only license you need to charge fees for financial planning or investment management. There is nothing else required to DO the job. Now, I will tell you this: Those that hold the CFP don't know any better or do anything differently than those who don't hold it. That's why it's a BEGINNER'S designation. Want the advanced stuff? Try ChFC, CLU, CFA, CIMA.[/quote] Agree on CFA, and CIMA[quote=anonymous][quote=army13A]And the argument of “I can research
anything I need to lookup” doesn’t fly. Bottom line, you don’t know
what you don’t know. Example . . . I was sitting next to a broker who
was in the business longer than me and we were both opening accounts
over the phone while he was opening an IRA account for an existing
client over the phone. I just got off my call and hear the tail end of
his convo. He asks for beneficiary information and the guy couldn’t
come up with one, so the guy says “Don’t worry, I’ll just name your
estate as the beneficiary”. So he just made an asset that that passes
outside of probate now pass through probate because he didn’t know any
better. Again, you don’t know what you don’t know. [/quote]
Umm, what makes me think that he didn't know? Because we talked after the fact and did a DOH! Anon, with all due respect, that's a horrible argument for not educating a client. You are right that some people don't care what happens when they die but this client never said that and that's where we come in as Advisors to educate clients. Where I live, probate can be 4-6% of the estate. And it's not like it costs anything to name a beneficiary. You are right that you can change the bene but what happens if the guy dies next week w/o changing beneficiary? Again, I'm sorry, that's just a horrible argument.
The CFP is like a bachelor’s degree. It demonstrates a certain level of knowledge. A level that exceeds that of most licensed individuals. Are there licensed individuals with more knowledge than a CFP or at least the same? Yep. Are there CFP’s that do zero critical thinking? Yep. What the CFP does is say to potential clients, “This person completed a certain level of knowledge”.
My guess. The majority of CFP’s know more than the AVERAGE broker. A minority of CFP’s know less. And another percentage know more.
As for CFA and CIMA. CIMA is like a master’s degree. Critical thinking. CFA is like a hybrid master’s/almost doctorate. You can be ASSURED that they know more than MOST brokers. At least as far as investments are concerned.
[quote=anonymous][quote=RealWorld]
B24 - Your comment about how you use your CFP is really what I am thinking. If I can sell it as a very important piece of knowledge then I think it would be worth it. I had a situation where I was in a competitive situation and the prospects asked if I was a CFP b/c another CFP that they meet with told them that they didn't have to work with him if they didn't like what he had to say but he advised them that they must work with a CFP and that was the basis of him getting the account. I certainly don't want to pay for the courses and then not pass the test. What was the time committment like in study for those who have it?[/quote] There is simply no question that you got outsold. Every year, the CFP question comes up less often in my practice. The last time that I was in the situation like you described, I think that my conversation went something like this: Prospect: "Joe Schmoe says that I should work with a CFP if I don't work with him. Are you a CFP?" Me: "Heck no. Do you know what a CFP allows Joe to do?" Prospect: "No." Me: "A CFP is a beginner's designation that gives the advisor the ability to do absolutely nothing. It's done for marketing purposes." Prospect:"But I thought that a CFP was needed to be certified to do financial planning." Me: "Nope. The CFP allows him to do nothing. In order to be able to charge fees for financial planning, one must possess their series 65. This is what gives someone the ability to do financial planning for a fee. He's telling you to use a CFP because he knows that most veteran advisors like myself aren't willing to waste our time with a designation that neither helps us nor our clients. It's all marketing." Me: "What's your biggest financial concern?" (I then shut up.)[/quote]This is not 100% horse crap but a majority is. If it's a beginners designation, why don't you try taking a practice exam without studying and see how you do? To say that most veteran advisors aren't "wasting their time" with a designation that doesn't help anything at all is pretty absurd. Without a doubt that there are successful advisors without the CFP and CFP guys who suck at production. But I've also seen plenty of CFP's who are doing really great as well.
Look, I'm not saying that the CFP is the end all be all but it shows a commitment to our profession. Also, when it comes to working with CPA's and Attorneys, it helps a lot as well. Not saying that no CPA or Attorney will work with a non-CFP but it opens up a lot more doors getting referrals with these guys. So, you can continue to knock a designation because you choose not to do it. It's pretty easy for you to knock it when you haven't been through it. Maybe if you did all the coursework and passed the exam, then it would be no problem to say it was a waste of time. There were guys in my class who were in the business for years, running million dollar practices and they found it very valuable. To each their own. What irks me is that our business is taking so much crap from the media and the public in general that when I see people in the business tear each other down it drives me crazy. Anon, again, I respect what you write a lot but not with this.
Army, I can only make a comment based upon what you posted. You didn’t post that you talked to him after the fact. I agree that it’s very dangerous as an advisor to not know that type of thing. He should know and he should educate the client.
If the guy dies next week without naming a beneficiary, the money will be paid to his estate and the attorneys will get to make money with the probate process. Will the client care that the attorneys are getting 4-6%? Since the client doesn't care what happens, why would he care that attorneys are getting 4-6%? Yes, I am equating the client not being able to name a beneficiary with not caring what happens if he dies. Again, I've got nothing to go on except what you have told us. If the client cares what happens, obviously the estate shouldn't be the beneficiary.[quote=army13A] [quote=anonymous][quote=RealWorld]
B24 - Your comment about how you use your CFP is really what I am thinking. If I can sell it as a very important piece of knowledge then I think it would be worth it. I had a situation where I was in a competitive situation and the prospects asked if I was a CFP b/c another CFP that they meet with told them that they didn't have to work with him if they didn't like what he had to say but he advised them that they must work with a CFP and that was the basis of him getting the account. I certainly don't want to pay for the courses and then not pass the test. What was the time committment like in study for those who have it?[/quote] There is simply no question that you got outsold. Every year, the CFP question comes up less often in my practice. The last time that I was in the situation like you described, I think that my conversation went something like this: Prospect: "Joe Schmoe says that I should work with a CFP if I don't work with him. Are you a CFP?" Me: "Heck no. Do you know what a CFP allows Joe to do?" Prospect: "No." Me: "A CFP is a beginner's designation that gives the advisor the ability to do absolutely nothing. It's done for marketing purposes." Prospect:"But I thought that a CFP was needed to be certified to do financial planning." Me: "Nope. The CFP allows him to do nothing. In order to be able to charge fees for financial planning, one must possess their series 65. This is what gives someone the ability to do financial planning for a fee. He's telling you to use a CFP because he knows that most veteran advisors like myself aren't willing to waste our time with a designation that neither helps us nor our clients. It's all marketing." Me: "What's your biggest financial concern?" (I then shut up.)[/quote]This is not 100% horse crap but a majority is. If it's a beginners designation, why don't you try taking a practice exam without studying and see how you do? To say that most veteran advisors aren't "wasting their time" with a designation that doesn't help anything at all is pretty absurd. Without a doubt that there are successful advisors without the CFP and CFP guys who suck at production. But I've also seen plenty of CFP's who are doing really great as well.
Look, I'm not saying that the CFP is the end all be all but it shows a commitment to our profession. Also, when it comes to working with CPA's and Attorneys, it helps a lot as well. Not saying that no CPA or Attorney will work with a non-CFP but it opens up a lot more doors getting referrals with these guys. So, you can continue to knock a designation because you choose not to do it. It's pretty easy for you to knock it when you haven't been through it. Maybe if you did all the coursework and passed the exam, then it would be no problem to say it was a waste of time. There were guys in my class who were in the business for years, running million dollar practices and they found it very valuable. To each their own. What irks me is that our business is taking so much crap from the media and the public in general that when I see people in the business tear each other down it drives me crazy. Anon, again, I respect what you write a lot but not with this.
[/quote] Continuing education shows a commitment to our profession. Coming on a forum like this with a willingness to answer questions from newbies shows a commitment to our profession. Becoming a CFP does not show a commitment to our profession. It shows a commitment to the CFP. I have no doubt that it is a challenging exam. I've never said that it's a waste of time. I've always been positive towards continuing education. I'm not willing to take the CFP because of the necessity of following their rules to use their trademark. By the way, probably 50% of my practice is made up of attorneys and CPAs.
[quote=Gordon Ramsey][quote=RealWorld]Anonymous - I certainly got outsold but I really don’t like how you explain CFP to your clients/prospects. It really isn’t very accurate. The fact that recieving a CFP does not qualify you to do any different form of trading isn’t the point. The point is education and if clients care that you are that educated.
Your explanation may be the most effective way to handle the objection but it is not an honest answer. [/quote] You need to analyze why you think the way you think. You probably don't have a very good opinion about yourself. The CFP mark allows you to use their MARK! That's it. Now, you're talking about the education as if people who DON'T have the CFP don't know what they're doing. It's proof that you read some books and took some exams. Well, what do you call Continuing Education? (Yes, some CE is too easy to do online, but that's what the CFP is. It's CE with a designation.) It's stupid. It's also stupid to be ignorant on what the CFP board expects you to do as a CFP certificate holder. The Series 65 is the only license you need to charge fees for financial planning or investment management. There is nothing else required to DO the job. Now, I will tell you this: Those that hold the CFP don't know any better or do anything differently than those who don't hold it. That's why it's a BEGINNER'S designation. Want the advanced stuff? Try ChFC, CLU, CFA, CIMA.[/quote]Again, this is a horrible argument for going for expanding your knowledge base and getting credentialed. No one ever said that non-CFP's don't know what they're doing but to say that anyone that takes a Series 7 is equivalent to taking a post graduate level of studies in our profession is nonsense. To equate the CFP to CE is crazy as well. In honesty, have you sat through the course? If not, how can you say it's worthless?
Your last comment just shows that you haven't researched it that much. First off, the ChFC is 8 courses (they just added another course, so I think it's 9) and six of those are the same exact courses as the CFP. The other 3 courses are electives and can be a variety of different things. The difference is you don't need a college degree or there is no comprehensive exam. I for one think the ChFC is equivalent to the CFP b/c it's the same coursework and not taking the exam; I don't think the exam means much except you know how to study. But to say that the ChFC is superior is ridiculous. And the CLU is a straight insurance designation, which I will pursue in the future as well but it's a narrow focus. So to say it's more advanced than CFP is crazy as well. CIMA and CFA, gothca on that but most people in our business are not going for the CFA b/c it's a different career track.
[quote=Moraen]The CFP is like a bachelor’s degree. It demonstrates a certain level of knowledge. A level that exceeds that of most licensed individuals. Are there licensed individuals with more knowledge than a CFP or at least the same? Yep. Are there CFP’s that do zero critical thinking? Yep. What the CFP does is say to potential clients, “This person completed a certain level of knowledge”.
My guess. The majority of CFP’s know more than the AVERAGE broker. A minority of CFP’s know less. And another percentage know more.
As for CFA and CIMA. CIMA is like a master’s degree. Critical thinking. CFA is like a hybrid master’s/almost doctorate. You can be ASSURED that they know more than MOST brokers. At least as far as investments are concerned.[/quote]
Moraen, ditto my brother in arms. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
[quote=RealWorld]Anonymous - I certainly got outsold but I really don’t like how you explain CFP to your clients/prospects. It really isn’t very accurate. The fact that recieving a CFP does not qualify you to do any different form of trading isn’t the point. The point is education and if clients care that you are that educated.
Your explanation may be the most effective way to handle the objection but it is not an honest answer. [/quote] Realworld if you are going to call me out for being a liar, I deserve specifics. What did I say that wasn't honest? What wasn't accurate? Keep in mind that my conversation was with a prospect who was told by his CFP that he had to work with a CFP. The CFP didn't say that he had to work with someone who was knowlegeable and well educated. The CFP didn't say that the client should work with someone with experience. The CFP didn't say that the client should work with someon who was ethical. The CFP didn't say that the client should work with someone who came highly recommended. The CFP used it for marketing. He used it to try to get rid of all competition who didn't have the designation. Keep in mind that not only does the CFP not qualify someone to do any different kind of trading, it doesn't qualify someone to do anything. The CFP controlls absolutely nothing except the people who choose to use their marks. Saying that the CFP is a beginner's designation is not a knock. A CFP does not give anyone expertise in any area. It gives someone a little bit of competence in lots of areas. A CFP is an expert to the same extent that a first year attorney is an expert. I'm very much in favor of the knowledge that one picks up becoming a CFP.CFPs generally work in the area of personal financial planning.
CLU/ChFCs learn how to work in the area of business financial planning. Implementing business financial solutions is a completely different arena than is covered in the CFP coursework. CLU/ChFC = 12 courses CFP = approx 5 courses (depending on provider)[quote=anonymous]
Keep in mind that my conversation was with a prospect who was told by his CFP that he had to work with a CFP. The CFP didn't say that he had to work with someone who was knowlegeable and well educated. The CFP didn't say that the client should work with someone with experience. The CFP didn't say that the client should work with someon who was ethical. The CFP didn't say that the client should work with someone who came highly recommended. The CFP used it for marketing. He used it to try to get rid of all competition who didn't have the designation. I completely understand where you're coming from here. If any of my friends/family across the country asked me my advice on two advisors they should work with: 1) a CFP they know nothing about or an Advisor who is being used by 5 of their smart and well off friends and each one of them recommended him/her, I'm going second option all day long.
Keep in mind that not only does the CFP not qualify someone to do any different kind of trading, it doesn't qualify someone to do anything. The CFP controlls absolutely nothing except the people who choose to use their marks. You're right about the actual marks but that's not what people here are saying. People on here are saying it's a waste of time and you can research stuff on your own and blah blah blah. I couldn't care two craps of whether someone passed the exam but to not do the education piece b/c it's "piker" is stupid. Series 7 does not teach about estate planning or tax strategies or nq deferred compensation or rabbi trusts, etc.
Saying that the CFP is a beginner's designation is not a knock. A CFP does not give anyone expertise in any area. It gives someone a little bit of competence in lots of areas. A CFP is an expert to the same extent that a first year attorney is an expert. You are right that it's a general designation but when someone says it's a beginners designation, they're doing it to knock it. That's like saying a bachelors is a beginners degree; no one ever says that. The most important thing is that it's not intended to make you an expert but to be aware of stuff if it comes across and if you see something, to go and get the specific resources to address the problem. I lost count on how many times I've seen accounts and policies that I've taken over that stuff was missed and not taken advantage of because the broker just didn't know to look for it. Anon, I'm pretty sure you know this b/c you do a lot of insurance but how many guys here know about the Goodman rule without googling it right away?
I'm very much in favor of the knowledge that one picks up becoming a CFP.[/quote]
[quote=Gordon Ramsey]CFPs generally work in the area of personal financial planning.
CLU/ChFCs learn how to work in the area of business financial planning. Implementing business financial solutions is a completely different arena than is covered in the CFP coursework. CLU/ChFC = 12 courses CFP = approx 5 courses (depending on provider)[/quote]Dude, you have no clue in what you're talking about. The ChFC is seven required courses (which recently got implemented) and 2 elective courses for a total of 9 courses. The CLU is 5 required courses with 3 electives for a total of 8. I have no idea where you're getting your numbers from.
CFP's work business planning as well. The entire retirement planning and employee benefits module that I took was geared toward helping the business owner tuck more $ away for himself and less for the rank and file using exec compensation and every tool that is out there for owners. Again, have you actually done the work?
Here is the coursework straight from the American College website:
CFP classes
Six Required Courses
HS 300 Financial Planning: Process and Environment
HS 311 Fundamentals of Insurance Planning
HS 321 Income Taxation
HS 326 Planning for Retirement Needs
HS 328 Investments
HS 330 Fundamentals of Estate Planning
ChFC® Curriculum (Get course descriptions here.)
Required Courses:
HS 300 Financial Planning: Process and Environment*
HS 311 Fundamentals of Insurance Planning
HS 321 Income Taxation
HS 326 Planning for Retirement Needs
HS 328 Investments
HS 330 Fundamentals of Estate Planning
HS 332 Financial Planning Applications
Elective Courses (Choose Two)
HS 322 The Financial System in the Economy
HS 334 Estate Planning Applications
HS 342 Executive Compensation
HS 352 Financial Decisions for Retirement
CLU
Required Core Courses (5):
HS 311 Fundamentals of Insurance Planning*
HS 323 Individual Life Insurance
HS 324 Life Insurance Law
HS 330 Fundamentals of Estate Planning
HS 331 Planning for Business Owners and Professionals
Elective Courses (select 3):
HS 300 Financial Planning: Process and Environment*
HS 313 Individual Health Insurance
HS 321 Income Taxation
HS 325 Group Benefits
HS 326 Planning for Retirement Needs
HS 328 Investments
HS 334 Estate Planning Applications
Dude,
CLU is 3 more required courses over ChFC. ChFC requires 9. CLU requires 3 more for a total of 12 to get both designations. How much cross-over are there between the two designations? http://www.theamericancollege.edu/docs/116.pdf Just because I want the CLU after the ChFC doesn't mean I have to take all the same courses a SECOND TIME. Also, the best people who help business owners have the CLU. Yes, I've taken the retirement planning course. There's a LOT more to helping business owners than just retirement plans. How about buy/sell plans, key employee plans, estate planning for a non-liquid estate, etc., etc., etc. (Take a look at what HS331 & HS330 covers sometime.) Try reading the website you post from every once in a while. Note: I actually have the ChFC designation.[quote=Gordon Ramsey]Dude,
CLU is 3 more required courses over ChFC. ChFC requires 9. CLU requires 3 more for a total of 12 to get both designations. How much cross-over are there between the two designations? Just because I want the CLU after the ChFC doesn't mean I have to take all the same courses a SECOND TIME. Also, the best people who help business owners have the CLU. Yes, I've taken the retirement planning course. There's a LOT more to helping business owners than just retirement plans. How about buy/sell plans, key employee plans, estate planning for a non-liquid estate, etc., etc., etc. (Take a look at what HS331 & HS330 covers sometime.) Try reading the website you post from every once in a while. Note: I actually have the ChFC designation. [/quote]After I posted the last comment, I thought you were probably referring to both of the designations combined and not individually. It wasn't clear to me what you meant, so on that, my apologies. I know that the coursework is overlapped just like if I wanted to get the CLU now, I need to take 2 or 3 courses.
Buy/sell, key employee/non qualified deferred comp strategies, ss integrated profit sharing plan, estate planning for a non liquid estate; I learned all of this in the CFP courses as well.
You just wrote that the best people who help business owners have the CLU. Isn't this similar to when people say that CFPs are the best for individuals than people without CFPs?
Again, I think the CFP and the ChFC are the same quality of experience and education. I think the CLU is valuable as well, no debate about that.
I don't think it's the same - and I can't back it up really. It's just a feeling of mine. For my insurance license, we covered some stuff for business planning - but only enough to pass the exam. To do the things covered in the CLU courses... requires advanced knowledge and (more importantly) mentorship. Without the knowledge and mentorship, you can EASILY screw it up and then you'd have to spell the letters: E&O. Those cases use BIG dollars and require a great deal of attention to tax structure, beneficiary designations, etc., or you can really blow up the case. Think you have a problem with CPAs as an investment advisor? Try it when working with a business owner using business dollars to solve a business problem. The CLU has always been an accredited, educational designation. The CFP started out as a sales designation - and has morphed into something else. They are a voluntary SRO to those who have subjected themselves to them. I'm not sure I would trust a newly life-licensed person to advise a business owner on anything - especially on their own wisdom. It's MY opinion that if you want to advise business owners on business planning solutions, you had better get your CLU. You don't need it before getting started, but I think you'd better make plans to obtain it. The truth is that the public doesn't have a clue. The only people telling the public to talk to a CFP are other CFPs and NAPFA (which only has about 1,000 members). The CFP is a very worthwhile achievement. How does one compare themselves with an edge over the CFP? I'd talk about your TEAM or your entire FIRM to help you construct financial plans & strategies. Even with all my knowledge, I help you get the best strategy that my FIRM can provide, not just one person. You can say this even if you're independent. You have wholesalers and attorneys with every firm you do business with - mutual funds or insurance companies. They're all there to help you. So, just make yourself look more like a Verizon Wireless commercial to your client to stand behind the strategies you and YOUR ENTIRE TEAM can provide - not just the one person who thinks they can do it all because they have 3 letters after their name.
After I posted the last comment, I thought you were probably referring to both of the designations combined and not individually. It wasn’t clear to me what you meant, so on that, my apologies. I know that the coursework is overlapped just like if I wanted to get the CLU now, I need to take 2 or 3 courses.
Buy/sell, key employee/non qualified deferred comp strategies, ss integrated profit sharing plan, estate planning for a non liquid estate; I learned all of this in the CFP courses as well.
You just wrote that the best people who help business owners have the CLU. Isn’t this similar to when people say that CFPs are the best for individuals than people without CFPs?
Again, I think the CFP and the ChFC are the same quality of experience and education. I think the CLU is valuable as well, no debate about that.
BTW, the reason I worked for a financial planning designation wasn’t for the letters after my name.
The reason was since I was going to hold myself out to the public as a financial planner, I had better have a clue about what I was doing. I didn't trust my firm to help me learn it, so I used my firm's educational reimbursement program to get the knowledge myself. I did it to help me be a better advisor and do the job right the first time (and lessen the probability of ever needing to use my E&O). Basically, I did it to "cover my ass".[quote=anonymous][quote=RealWorld]
B24 - Your comment about how you use your CFP is really what I am thinking. If I can sell it as a very important piece of knowledge then I think it would be worth it. I had a situation where I was in a competitive situation and the prospects asked if I was a CFP b/c another CFP that they meet with told them that they didn't have to work with him if they didn't like what he had to say but he advised them that they must work with a CFP and that was the basis of him getting the account. I certainly don't want to pay for the courses and then not pass the test. What was the time committment like in study for those who have it?[/quote] There is simply no question that you got outsold. Every year, the CFP question comes up less often in my practice. The last time that I was in the situation like you described, I think that my conversation went something like this: Prospect: "Joe Schmoe says that I should work with a CFP if I don't work with him. Are you a CFP?" Me: "Heck no. Do you know what a CFP allows Joe to do?" Prospect: "No." Me: "A CFP is a beginner's designation that gives the advisor the ability to do absolutely nothing. It's done for marketing purposes." Prospect:"But I thought that a CFP was needed to be certified to do financial planning." Me: "Nope. The CFP allows him to do nothing. In order to be able to charge fees for financial planning, one must possess their series 65. This is what gives someone the ability to do financial planning for a fee. He's telling you to use a CFP because he knows that most veteran advisors like myself aren't willing to waste our time with a designation that neither helps us nor our clients. It's all marketing." Me: "What's your biggest financial concern?" (I then shut up.)[/quote] A few days later the client comes back to visit with me and verify that the CFP means nothing. Well Mr Client, I can respect his opinion and agree with some of it. I had a very successful business before I spent two years working on the CFP and I feel I gave each of my clients excellent service and advice. However, as my clients net worth grew the knowlege they demanded from me rose and I wanted to take my business to the next level. That is why I worked on the CFP which gave me a deep and proven understanding of insurance, income tax, investment and estate planning. Unlike the 65 that the other guy has and that I got myself when I first started in this business years ago, the CFP requires us to have a college degree, 3 years financial planning experience, pass 5 courses and pass a 10 hour exam. We are also held to an additional and higher level of ethics. I'm not saying he will not do a fine job for you but with your level of wealth I believe you can and should demand an expert, not just another stock broker. Hey, if I'm wrong then it just means we are on the same playing field, but if he's wrong you may end up working with someone who will not understand your complex income tax and estate planning needs. PS, I heard from someone that he beats his kidsBachelor degree requirement is only 3 years old (January, 2007). The majority of current CFP holders weren’t subject to such a requirement.
[quote=LA Broker][quote=anonymous][quote=RealWorld]
B24 - Your comment about how you use your CFP is really what I am thinking. If I can sell it as a very important piece of knowledge then I think it would be worth it. I had a situation where I was in a competitive situation and the prospects asked if I was a CFP b/c another CFP that they meet with told them that they didn't have to work with him if they didn't like what he had to say but he advised them that they must work with a CFP and that was the basis of him getting the account. I certainly don't want to pay for the courses and then not pass the test. What was the time committment like in study for those who have it?[/quote] There is simply no question that you got outsold. Every year, the CFP question comes up less often in my practice. The last time that I was in the situation like you described, I think that my conversation went something like this: Prospect: "Joe Schmoe says that I should work with a CFP if I don't work with him. Are you a CFP?" Me: "Heck no. Do you know what a CFP allows Joe to do?" Prospect: "No." Me: "A CFP is a beginner's designation that gives the advisor the ability to do absolutely nothing. It's done for marketing purposes." Prospect:"But I thought that a CFP was needed to be certified to do financial planning." Me: "Nope. The CFP allows him to do nothing. In order to be able to charge fees for financial planning, one must possess their series 65. This is what gives someone the ability to do financial planning for a fee. He's telling you to use a CFP because he knows that most veteran advisors like myself aren't willing to waste our time with a designation that neither helps us nor our clients. It's all marketing." Me: "What's your biggest financial concern?" (I then shut up.)[/quote] A few days later the client comes back to visit with me and verify that the CFP means nothing. Well Mr Client, I can respect his opinion and agree with some of it. I had a very successful business before I spent two years working on the CFP and I feel I gave each of my clients excellent service and advice. However, as my clients net worth grew the knowlege they demanded from me rose and I wanted to take my business to the next level. That is why I worked on the CFP which gave me a deep and proven understanding of insurance, income tax, investment and estate planning. Unlike the 65 that the other guy has and that I got myself when I first started in this business years ago, the CFP requires us to have a college degree, 3 years financial planning experience, pass 5 courses and pass a 10 hour exam. We are also held to an additional and higher level of ethics. I'm not saying he will not do a fine job for you but with your level of wealth I believe you can and should demand an expert, not just another stock broker. Hey, if I'm wrong then it just means we are on the same playing field, but if he's wrong you may end up working with someone who will not understand your complex income tax and estate planning needs. PS, I heard from someone that he beats his kids[/quote] "Well, Mr. Prospect, I agree with much of what he just said. I have 20 years of financial planning experience. I have taken and passed dozens of courses over the years. College is a distant memory. Your attorney and CPA are both clients of mine and your partner referred me to you. My level of ethics come from my parents and my belief in God and not from letters after my name. I have enjoyed getting to know you and am 100% certain that I can be of help to you. Despite wanting your business, I don't need your business. I would like to work with you, but I need you to be comfortable working with me. Therefore, there will be no further follow up from my end. If you would like to work together, please just call my office to schedule an appointment."[quote=anonymous][quote=LA Broker][quote=anonymous][quote=RealWorld]
B24 - Your comment about how you use your CFP is really what I am thinking. If I can sell it as a very important piece of knowledge then I think it would be worth it. I had a situation where I was in a competitive situation and the prospects asked if I was a CFP b/c another CFP that they meet with told them that they didn't have to work with him if they didn't like what he had to say but he advised them that they must work with a CFP and that was the basis of him getting the account. I certainly don't want to pay for the courses and then not pass the test. What was the time committment like in study for those who have it?[/quote] There is simply no question that you got outsold. Every year, the CFP question comes up less often in my practice. The last time that I was in the situation like you described, I think that my conversation went something like this: Prospect: "Joe Schmoe says that I should work with a CFP if I don't work with him. Are you a CFP?" Me: "Heck no. Do you know what a CFP allows Joe to do?" Prospect: "No." Me: "A CFP is a beginner's designation that gives the advisor the ability to do absolutely nothing. It's done for marketing purposes." Prospect:"But I thought that a CFP was needed to be certified to do financial planning." Me: "Nope. The CFP allows him to do nothing. In order to be able to charge fees for financial planning, one must possess their series 65. This is what gives someone the ability to do financial planning for a fee. He's telling you to use a CFP because he knows that most veteran advisors like myself aren't willing to waste our time with a designation that neither helps us nor our clients. It's all marketing." Me: "What's your biggest financial concern?" (I then shut up.)[/quote] A few days later the client comes back to visit with me and verify that the CFP means nothing. Well Mr Client, I can respect his opinion and agree with some of it. I had a very successful business before I spent two years working on the CFP and I feel I gave each of my clients excellent service and advice. However, as my clients net worth grew the knowlege they demanded from me rose and I wanted to take my business to the next level. That is why I worked on the CFP which gave me a deep and proven understanding of insurance, income tax, investment and estate planning. Unlike the 65 that the other guy has and that I got myself when I first started in this business years ago, the CFP requires us to have a college degree, 3 years financial planning experience, pass 5 courses and pass a 10 hour exam. We are also held to an additional and higher level of ethics. I'm not saying he will not do a fine job for you but with your level of wealth I believe you can and should demand an expert, not just another stock broker. Hey, if I'm wrong then it just means we are on the same playing field, but if he's wrong you may end up working with someone who will not understand your complex income tax and estate planning needs. PS, I heard from someone that he beats his kids[/quote] "Well, Mr. Prospect, I agree with much of what he just said. I have 20 years of financial planning experience. I have taken and passed dozens of courses over the years. College is a distant memory. Your attorney and CPA are both clients of mine and your partner referred me to you. My level of ethics come from my parents and my belief in God and not from letters after my name. I have enjoyed getting to know you and am 100% certain that I can be of help to you. Despite wanting your business, I don't need your business. I would like to work with you, but I need you to be comfortable working with me. Therefore, there will be no further follow up from my end. If you would like to work together, please just call my office to schedule an appointment."[/quote] I think you handled that pretty well. Like others say, 99% people will not ask, and for those who do you can probably overcome it like you demonstrated here. I do believe it will help those who have it if you market it right. Again, I don't think a CFP is high and mighty or even better prepared, I do think real life experience is number one, but I would rather have letters proving to those clients who care that I did additional education than telling them I do. The CFP is just another tool to use in your sales pitch along with selling your process, company (if you do) and money manager selection. If people are interviewing a few different guys it's nice to know you can seperate yourself or at least keep even if they also have a CFP. I would say what benefitted me the most having it is it gives me the confidence to have conversations about taxes and estate planning that I stayed away from in earlier years which opens the door to more business for existing clients.[quote=anonymous][quote=LA Broker][quote=anonymous][quote=RealWorld]
B24 - Your comment about how you use your CFP is really what I am thinking. If I can sell it as a very important piece of knowledge then I think it would be worth it. I had a situation where I was in a competitive situation and the prospects asked if I was a CFP b/c another CFP that they meet with told them that they didn't have to work with him if they didn't like what he had to say but he advised them that they must work with a CFP and that was the basis of him getting the account. I certainly don't want to pay for the courses and then not pass the test. What was the time committment like in study for those who have it?[/quote] There is simply no question that you got outsold. Every year, the CFP question comes up less often in my practice. The last time that I was in the situation like you described, I think that my conversation went something like this: Prospect: "Joe Schmoe says that I should work with a CFP if I don't work with him. Are you a CFP?" Me: "Heck no. Do you know what a CFP allows Joe to do?" Prospect: "No." Me: "A CFP is a beginner's designation that gives the advisor the ability to do absolutely nothing. It's done for marketing purposes." Prospect:"But I thought that a CFP was needed to be certified to do financial planning." Me: "Nope. The CFP allows him to do nothing. In order to be able to charge fees for financial planning, one must possess their series 65. This is what gives someone the ability to do financial planning for a fee. He's telling you to use a CFP because he knows that most veteran advisors like myself aren't willing to waste our time with a designation that neither helps us nor our clients. It's all marketing." Me: "What's your biggest financial concern?" (I then shut up.)[/quote] A few days later the client comes back to visit with me and verify that the CFP means nothing. Well Mr Client, I can respect his opinion and agree with some of it. I had a very successful business before I spent two years working on the CFP and I feel I gave each of my clients excellent service and advice. However, as my clients net worth grew the knowlege they demanded from me rose and I wanted to take my business to the next level. That is why I worked on the CFP which gave me a deep and proven understanding of insurance, income tax, investment and estate planning. Unlike the 65 that the other guy has and that I got myself when I first started in this business years ago, the CFP requires us to have a college degree, 3 years financial planning experience, pass 5 courses and pass a 10 hour exam. We are also held to an additional and higher level of ethics. I'm not saying he will not do a fine job for you but with your level of wealth I believe you can and should demand an expert, not just another stock broker. Hey, if I'm wrong then it just means we are on the same playing field, but if he's wrong you may end up working with someone who will not understand your complex income tax and estate planning needs. PS, I heard from someone that he beats his kids[/quote] "Well, Mr. Prospect, I agree with much of what he just said. I have 20 years of financial planning experience. I have taken and passed dozens of courses over the years. College is a distant memory. "Your attorney and CPA are both clients of mine" and your partner referred me to you. My level of ethics come from my parents and my belief in God and not from letters after my name. I have enjoyed getting to know you and am 100% certain that I can be of help to you. Despite wanting your business, I don't need your business. I would like to work with you, but I need you to be comfortable working with me. Therefore, there will be no further follow up from my end. If you would like to work together, please just call my office to schedule an appointment."[/quote] Doesn't that breach confidentiality?Nope. I wouldn’t do it without their permission. With their permission, it is simply smart business.
I don’t know why ANYONE in insurance or investments wants to get a CFP designation. Seems like a colossal waste of time to me.
http://www.americanfenceassociation.com/Consumers/WhatisaCFP/tabid/60/Default.aspxThis has been a pretty funny thread. Look, all just my opinion, no disrespect intended to those who disagree. The CFP is in no was a "beginner's designation". It won't "make" your career, but it certainly isn't a waste of time and means far more than a "sales designation". I wouldn’t recommend taking time out of other activities when you’re band new to the biz, but since you need at least three years of experience before you take the exam it really is not an issue as I see it. As far as competing with other advisors who might not have the CFP, it’s on my card hanging on my walls and I answer questions about it. Some prospects see it as critical others don’t even know what it means. I think what prospects do get is the highly defensive “it means nothing” answers those without it may provide, since prospects who ask about it have seen people they respect in the finance world say otherwise.
The CFP is a designation that’s more favored in the investment side of the biz, the ChFC CLU is more of an insurance designation. The additional course work to get the ChFC CLU after you’ve earned the CFP isn’t difficult. In fact none of the American College courses amount to a serious mental challenge, again my opinion. After I found out I’d passed the CFP the American College send me a notice about how to get the other. The CLU courses were particularly interesting.
To me the critical difference in earning the CFP versus what’s required to earn the ChFC CLU is the comprehensive exam (2 days, 10 hours, pass rate about 60%) required with the CFP. Otherwise it’s all just about getting past the pretty easy to pass American College courses.
I'm very much in favor of the knowledge picked up when one passes the classes and passes their CFP exam. However, we should certainly be able to agree that having a CFP doesn't make one an expert in any area of financial planning. It also doesn't allow somebody the legal ability to do anything dealing with financial planning. For someone who already possesses the knowledge that the CFP teaches, the only reason to get a CFP is for marketing purposes. Those are the reasons why it is a beginner's designation.
The difference between the achieving the CFP vs the CLU/ChFC is two fold. The CFP has less classes but a comprehensive exam. The CLU/ChFC has more classes but no comprehensive exam. CFP's think that it's a big deal that it's a difficult exam that's hard to pass. I don't think that it matters. The bulk of the people who pass the CFP exam would fail it if two years later, they were surprised with the CFP exam. This is also probably true for the CPA exam, bar exam, etc. Are these people worse planners, cpas, lawyers two years later. Of course not. They simply have developed more expertise in certain areas and have learned that life is open book so they don't have to memorize everything. People think that I'm anti-CFP. I'm only anti- CFP from a political standpoint. I think that they are bad for advisors and ultimately will be bad for consumers if the CFP BOG gets their way about how things should be done.[quote=anonymous]
For someone who already possesses the knowledge that the CFP teaches, the only reason to get a CFP is for marketing purposes. Those are the reasons why it is a beginner's designation.
[/quote] Sure is easy to say someone already possesses something, isn't it?[quote=alwaysaguest][quote=anonymous]
For someone who already possesses the knowledge that the CFP teaches, the only reason to get a CFP is for marketing purposes. Those are the reasons why it is a beginner's designation.
[/quote] Sure is easy to say someone already possesses something, isn't it?[/quote] A CFP who took the test 3 years ago would fail the exam if someone showed up at their today and said take it now. If someone told me to take the exam today, I would also fail. However, I am not talking about the knowledge to pass the CFP exam today. I am talking about the knowledge to do financial planning for my clients. Yes, it is easy to say that I possess something. It is also true that I have that knowledge. An experience advisor who takes education seriously knows what they possess. Just as importantly, they know what they don't know.[quote=anonymous]
A CFP who took the test 3 years ago would fail the exam if someone showed up at their today and said take it now. If someone told me to take the exam today, I would also fail. [/quote]I don't know it you're right that a CFP who passed the exam three years ago would fail it today. In fact, I doubt it because I'm pretty confident I'd pass it and I took it over eight years ago. One thing's for sure, that CFP that you say would fail at least proved once that they'd mastered the material and that can't be said of those that never took the training or the exam and simply claim they know they‘re as competent.
I don't know you at all and I certainly don’t want to insult you. For all I know you could be the master of all thing financial planning and I know I‘m not perfect. I'll just say the belittling and defensive answers you’ve given about the CFP don’t seem objective or particularly professional. You can have the last word on this, I’ve said all I have to say on the subject.
I think out of the gate getting the CMT is the way to go as it teaches you about the market. After a few years in then the CFP maybe. The few in my office said it’s not brought them any business they would not have acquired without it. My manager said he would fire me if I started it within my first five years. I know most of you will laugh but if a newbie wants enough to have a clue, the CRPC if you actually learn it all cold vs. just squeaking through it for training is pretty good to start with.
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