EIA's vs. VA's

Don't worry about options as well.

Great stuff, thanks jagoffs

It is my understanding that you don't need a series 7 to sell an EIA. So any ins salestype who can't pass the 7 can call themselves a financial advisor.

Navet - I'm surprised you are talking about advisors and the Series 7 in the same sentence, since those who pass the Series 7 are registered representatives or stockbrokers.

Another interesting fact, you don't need a CFP to call yourself a financial planner, you also don't need a series 7 to sell mutual funds or VA's, which is basically what you do at Jones isn't it?

Ron - didn't mean to hijack your thread.  To get back on topic.  I wish I knew a lot about it.  From what I understand, there are several differences. 

VA's invest in underlying mutual funds, and the risk is borne by the client.  It is basically an account with an insurance on it.

EIA's basically buy at the money calls on an index.  index goes down, options expire worthless, index does nothing, options expire worthless.  The guarantee per year I can't remember what they do with.  But if the index goes up, they exercise the options

Biofreeze or anybody else who knows about EIAs, feel free to punch holes in what I said. 

I see value in EIA's, not so much in VAs.

Pros for EIAs:  Guarantee, market participation, can have short surrenders.

Cons:  Usually some surrender, not 100% market upside.

Pros for VAs:  Guaranteed income stream

Cons:  It invests in mutual funds, high expenses.

DISLCAIMER:  I don't use either of these products myself, but the more I learn about EIA's, the more I think they can be appropriate for someones money.

Have gone up against EIAs in the past and here is what  I ran with:

I sold  EIA annuities when they first rolled out at 100% participation and looked at them again when up against them as competition about 2-3 years ago and I wouldn't have sold them.  But like any other product some are better than others and I may have only looked at the poorer choices when comparing.

VA cons:  fees and very difficult to explain or get customers to realize what they have.  An EIA is just an easier product to explain.

Net / Net there is never one panacea product for every situation.  I could argue both successfully in different situations.

Ron

I sell the Nationwide VA with the 10% simple interest step up for 10 years.  If the client can leave the principal alone for 10 years the income base is double.  100K initial invest = 200K benefit base which 5% can be withdrawn for life (10K) a year.  Like Roxie said most EIA have either a participation rate ie (only 50% of your money is invested in the market) or a cap 10% (market goes up 25%, your account only goes up 10%).  With the market still down I like the idea my clients can get a good bull market but also have guaranteed income if the market struggles.  Surrender is 7 years on Nationwide.  When I was at Jones I was told the same thing about EIA, that they were evil and we needed to save our clients from them.  I actually think they are fine, and the best choice for some but I prefer the upside of a VA.  Now if you get a tool like BioFreeze pitching 20 year surrender EIA to your 85 year old client, then maybe the Jones guys have a point. 

Going back to the original post, I will quote "South Park"----Its a choice between a giant blue duche and a shite sandwich.  Long term, they both suck

VA=risk is borne by the client

EIA=risk is borne by the insurance company, but the client doesn't have much upside potential. 

Either can be fine depending on the client and what product you are selling them.  For instance the EIA's that pay north of 10% commission can't be good for a client due to being tied up for 15-20 years.

Geez, what a harsh crowd to both VA's and Index Annuities.  I use both and I use them well.  Annuities as a whole make up 35% of my business.  They are great tools for clients.

Right! This is why they are now called "fixed indexed annuities"- cuz that's what they are! (never should have been called EIA- very confusing)

Why would certain banks and EJ stay away from EIA's ?

[quote=Ron 14]

Why would certain banks and EJ stay away from EIA's ?

[/quote]

As was stated before, they have an unsavory reputation due to some really bad apples, and have seen some heavy litigation.  They are hard for even the FA to understand completely, much less the client.  If Ice was right, you could probably construct a portfolio with bonds and options that would outperform the insurance contract.  (That is if you could offer options).

Publicity.. For jones it would make sense if they would, but it crosses over to a issue they aren't comfortable with (options)... They believe in buy and hold(which in and of itself would make sense for EIAs) however the high commission(ICE is right on some products) the tv news shows saying how bad they are and the fact that they make money underwriting bonds(and this would take away from that)... Also i am sure they would make an insurance company come up with a special one for jones(and minimize commission)..

Ron, no offense...I was rated the thread, not necessarily your post.  I've used both VAs and EIAs and don't think either of them are sh*t sandwiches.  Some clients simply are not willing to accept market risk.  Some clients need a guaranteed lifetime income on at least some of their assets.  Many people are exceedingly disappointed with current available bond and CD interest rates and are looking for ways to increase the income they have from CDs, etc. Those are just a few of the reasons I've found to use VAs and EIAs.  For those of you writing them off and refusing to offer them as alternatives, I'm cool with that too, but in my world, I'd be writing off at least one in five good prospects if I did that.

[quote=Ron 14]

Why would certain banks and EJ stay away from EIA's ?

[/quote]

Probably the same reason Jones discouraged B and C shares, did not have managed accounts all those years.  They want to keep in simple to avoid litigation issues. 

Ice- Great explanation.

To put it simple how about...

$100,000 EIA = 80k in zero coupon bonds maturing at 100k + 20k in options potentially capturing upside of index - expenses.

$100,000 VA = 20k x five various mutual funds - expenses.

Structured products are similar to EIAs also. They usually use options with European style settlement so all the costs can be precalculated.

As ice has stated before in another thread, tax deferral is the only part that cannot be replicated by a firm that does not restrict their advisors.

Jone does VAs with complicated riders--why not EIAs? They are much easier to understand AND at the very least you cannot lose principal (assuming blah blah).

Also EIAs are on "autopilot" where VAs have someone somewhere managing the subaccounts.

Are you MsBroker in disguise?

I am somewhat curious why the sudden push for insurance guaranty products.  I think it is because the market broke off at the hilt, but then again, history has told us it is a buying time.  I have been bullish since DOW 7,000.  Starting to moderate, but WTF.  I have to call you out, are you selling for commish, or what you think is right?  If I had to guess, we have a bunch of insurance pikers lurking here.

[quote=joelv72]

I am somewhat curious why the sudden push for insurance guaranty products.  I think it is because the market broke off at the hilt, but then again, history has told us it is a buying time.  I have been bullish since DOW 7,000.  Starting to moderate, but WTF.  I have to call you out, are you selling for commish, or what you think is right?  If I had to guess, we have a bunch of insurance pikers lurking here.

[/quote]

Not everybody wants market risk.  Some people want something fixed, tax-deferred, creditor-protected, and can turn into an income stream that cannot be outlived.

I didn't think you could be that retarded, but I stand corrected. 

I agree with deekay and that is why I brought up the thread. Even after this market rebound people are scared to death. It needs to be a part of my business moving forward. If you don't think a product with guarantees can benefit a client you are a boob.

For people who panicked(or about to panic) at market bottom, the VA was a great option. Many of the contracts I sold last year are about to lock-in at a nice gain. The VA kept them in equities, provide for a permanent income stream, and have the possibility of growing income above the inflation rate. A great product for a portion of a portfolio.

[quote=N.D.]

Ice- Great explanation.

To put it simple how about...

$100,000 EIA = 80k in zero coupon bonds maturing at 100k + 20k in options potentially capturing upside of index - expenses.

$100,000 VA = 20k x five various mutual funds - expenses.

Structured products are similar to EIAs also. They usually use options with European style settlement so all the costs can be precalculated.

As ice has stated before in another thread, tax deferral is the only part that cannot be replicated by a firm that does not restrict their advisors.

[/quote]

They really can't be replicated by an individual due the professional management and buying power of the insuance companies. 

For more info on their performance, check out this study.  It also discusses other reasons as to why they aren't easily replicated.  http://fic.wharton.upenn.edu/fic/Policy%20page/RealWorldReturns.pdf

[quote=N.D.]

Ice- Great explanation.

To put it simple how about...

$100,000 EIA = 80k in zero coupon bonds maturing at 100k + 20k in options potentially capturing upside of index - expenses.

$100,000 VA = 20k x five various mutual funds - expenses.

Structured products are similar to EIAs also. They usually use options with European style settlement so all the costs can be precalculated.

As ice has stated before in another thread, tax deferral is the only part that cannot be replicated by a firm that does not restrict their advisors.

[/quote]

They really can't be replicated by an individual due the professional management and buying power of the insuance companies. 

For more info on their performance, check out this study.  It also discusses other reasons as to why they aren't easily replicated.  http://fic.wharton.upenn.edu/fic/Policy%20page/RealWorldReturns.pdf

I said they could be replicated. I did not say it would be profitable. To be able to compete with the insurance companies it would have to be done on a large scale or initiated at an opportune time such as now when the vix has come in so much over the last year bringing the options market down.

You can't replicate it on an individual level because

A) Annuities provide lifetime income that cannot be outlived.  You cannot create that with other products as a retail FA.

B) In many states, NQ annuities are creditor-protected. 

So additional discussion on this is no more than mental masturbation. 

[quote=N.D.]

I said they could be replicated. I did not say it would be profitable. To be able to compete with the insurance companies it would have to be done on a large scale or initiated at an opportune time such as now when the vix has come in so much over the last year bringing the options market down.

What exactly is "bringing the options market down"? A declining VIX will bring option prices down, but a market is still available for the necessary hedges to be executed.

[/quote]

[quote=deekay]You can't replicate it on an individual level because

A) Annuities provide lifetime income that cannot be outlived.  You cannot create that with other products as a retail FA.

B) In many states, NQ annuities are creditor-protected. 

So additional discussion on this is no more than mental masturbation.[/quote]

I am talking about the accumulation phase not the distribution. I can replicate the mechanics and then purchase an SPIA for the income stream at a later time. There are many arguments for and against them. Also, I do not see a problem with jerking my mind off so I will continue.

[quote=Ron 14][quote=N.D.]I said they could be replicated. I did not say it would be profitable. To be able to compete with the insurance companies it would have to be done on a large scale or initiated at an opportune time such as now when the vix has come in so much over the last year bringing the options market down.[/quote]What exactly is "bringing the options market down"? A declining VIX will bring option prices down, but a market is still available for the necessary hedges to be executed.[/quote]

Yes I mean prices down. This week was the lightest options volume week since like forever. Does it mean the protection of options is no longer needed? Does that mean the "guarantee" of an annuity is losing its luster? I don't know. They are not my specialty by any means. But I do like EIAs over VAs any day. Maybe it's the part of me that likes ETFs over MFs. They all have their place but EIAs and ETFs are more predictable in my opinion.

[quote=N.D.]

[quote=deekay]You can't replicate it on an individual level because

A) Annuities provide lifetime income that cannot be outlived.  You cannot create that with other products as a retail FA.

B) In many states, NQ annuities are creditor-protected. 

So additional discussion on this is no more than mental masturbation.[/quote]

I am talking about the accumulation phase not the distribution. I can replicate the mechanics and then purchase an SPIA for the income stream at a later time. There are many arguments for and against them. Also, I do not see a problem with jerking my mind off so I will continue.

[quote=Ron 14][quote=N.D.]I said they could be replicated. I did not say it would be profitable. To be able to compete with the insurance companies it would have to be done on a large scale or initiated at an opportune time such as now when the vix has come in so much over the last year bringing the options market down.[/quote]What exactly is "bringing the options market down"? A declining VIX will bring option prices down, but a market is still available for the necessary hedges to be executed.[/quote]

Yes I mean prices down. This week was the lightest options volume week since like forever. Does it mean the protection of options is no longer needed? Does that mean the "guarantee" of an annuity is losing its luster? I don't know. They are not my specialty by any means. But I do like EIAs over VAs any day. Maybe it's the part of me that likes ETFs over MFs. They all have their place but EIAs and ETFs are more predictable in my opinion.

[/quote]

Since when can a retail FA magically make their investment strategies creditor-protected?

[quote=deekay]Since when can a retail FA magically make their investment strategies creditor-protected?[/quote]

Okay, we will continue to rub this one out...

The Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 was created to make it more difficult for debtors who had the capacity to pay, however the BAPCPA increased, in some cases, the creditor protection available to retirement plans. ERISA plans are one example and IRAs vary by state.

You guys throw that "guarantee" word around all over the place. What is the realistic chance of the account owner utilizing the "creditor protection" benefit of an annuity? If an annuity is purchased with the intent of avoiding creditors, it is not guaranteed. But it sounds nice especially after the last two years.

[quote=N.D.]

[quote=deekay]Since when can a retail FA magically make their investment strategies creditor-protected?[/quote]

Okay, we will continue to rub this one out...

The Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 was created to make it more difficult for debtors who had the capacity to pay, however the BAPCPA increased, in some cases, the creditor protection available to retirement plans. ERISA plans are one example and IRAs vary by state.

You guys throw that "guarantee" word around all over the place. What is the realistic chance of the account owner utilizing the "creditor protection" benefit of an annuity? If an annuity is purchased with the intent of avoiding creditors, it is not guaranteed. But it sounds nice especially after the last two years.

[/quote]

Lots of rich people like the idea their money cannot be touched if they get sued.  I didn't realize your target market are those who are going bankrupt.  My bad.

That's what an irrevocable trust is for. Beside NQ annuities are only creditor protected in half of the states. And I would say if gross negligence was found then the Judge will pierce the annuity veil just the same as it would a corporation.

Of all the annuities and all the benefits you can only find scaring people with the chance of being sued to sell one? That's what umbrella insurance is for...

OK, client came to me with a VA that was being pitched by a bank advisor.  It had a hypo built in to the presentation that showed what $100K would do over the last 15 years, spread over 4 funds and how much better off they would be with the GMAB.  The only problem is, when I plug the same funds into morningstar (retail, not the insurance line crud), the hypo shows them significantly ahead of the GMAB, even with my advisory fee of 1.25% ($330K vs $365K).  That is with two very steep recessions built in, so you would think this is about as good of a 15 year period you could expect from a VA.  So, to all you annuity slingers, what is your come-back to that?

[quote=joelv72]

OK, client came to me with a VA that was being pitched by a bank advisor.  It had a hypo built in to the presentation that showed what $100K would do over the last 15 years, spread over 4 funds and how much better off they would be with the GMAB.  The only problem is, when I plug the same funds into morningstar (retail, not the insurance line crud), the hypo shows them significantly ahead of the GMAB, even with my advisory fee of 1.25% ($330K vs $365K).  That is with two very steep recessions built in, so you would think this is about as good of a 15 year period you could expect from a VA.  So, to all you annuity slingers, what is your come-back to that?

[/quote]

Hypos can be rigged to make any product look better than the competitions'.  So get off your high horse.  A VA is a risk management tool.  Have a prospect or client who needs to invest aggressively to reach their goals but they can't stand the ups and downs?  A VA is a valid solution.  Sure, in a vacuum I would expect a similarly-constructed portfolio of funds to do better than the VA option.  But how will the client react to their portfolio being down 40% (like it was in '07)?  They need to stay invested to catch the rebound.  If they're like some people, they bailed.  A GMAB annuity could have helped them stay invested because they know they've got their guarantees. 

Why not show them both options and let them pick?  Or do you just bash annuities because you're an RIA who has chosen not to present annuities?  Seems to me the more logical solution would be to let the client decide how to proceed, rather than try to 'sell' them on one approach or another.

[quote=N.D.]

That's what an irrevocable trust is for. Beside NQ annuities are only creditor protected in half of the states. And I would say if gross negligence was found then the Judge will pierce the annuity veil just the same as it would a corporation.

Of all the annuities and all the benefits you can only find scaring people with the chance of being sued to sell one? That's what umbrella insurance is for...

[/quote]

I have a friend/prospect who is being sued for $20mm (true story).  The max umbrella coverage he could get is $10mm.  He's 35 years old and makes over $500k per year.  In my state, his wages could be garnished for the next 21 years if the settlement goes against him.  How much you want to bet he won't be interested in seeing how he can protect what he's accumulated so far?

[quote=deekay]

[quote=joelv72]

OK, client came to me with a VA that was being pitched by a bank advisor.  It had a hypo built in to the presentation that showed what $100K would do over the last 15 years, spread over 4 funds and how much better off they would be with the GMAB.  The only problem is, when I plug the same funds into morningstar (retail, not the insurance line crud), the hypo shows them significantly ahead of the GMAB, even with my advisory fee of 1.25% ($330K vs $365K).  That is with two very steep recessions built in, so you would think this is about as good of a 15 year period you could expect from a VA.  So, to all you annuity slingers, what is your come-back to that?

[/quote]

Hypos can be rigged to make any product look better than the competitions'.  So get off your high horse.  A VA is a risk management tool.  Have a prospect or client who needs to invest aggressively to reach their goals but they can't stand the ups and downs?  A VA is a valid solution.  Sure, in a vacuum I would expect a similarly-constructed portfolio of funds to do better than the VA option.  But how will the client react to their portfolio being down 40% (like it was in '07)?  They need to stay invested to catch the rebound.  If they're like some people, they bailed.  A GMAB annuity could have helped them stay invested because they know they've got their guarantees. 

Why not show them both options and let them pick?  Or do you just bash annuities because you're an RIA who has chosen not to present annuities?  Seems to me the more logical solution would be to let the client decide how to proceed, rather than try to 'sell' them on one approach or another.

[/quote]

They have already seen both options (remember, they brought the info to me).  I can and do have the ability to present annuities with no surrender charges, although rider options are severely limited.  Think high income individuals that have maxed out on their tax deferred options.  For the most part, I think the expensive bells and whistles (riders) are way over-rated.

Also, "hypos can be rigged"???  It was a straight up run over the same period with the same funds on the retail side as opposed to the insurance offered side.

[quote=joelv72]

Also, "hypos can be rigged"???  It was a straight up run over the same period with the same funds on the retail side as opposed to the insurance offered side.

[/quote]

You can cherry-pick time frames to make one portfolio look better than the other.  I should have clarified the term 'rigged'.  Of course, you cannot rig an actual hypo.

Thanks for clarifying your position.  Basically, you can offer poor VA options and you inject your opinion on the subject.  That's fine.  I was under the impression an RIA needed to be objective.  I fail to see how you are.

[quote=deekay]I have a friend/prospect who is being sued for $20mm (true story).  The max umbrella coverage he could get is $10mm.  He's 35 years old and makes over $500k per year.  In my state, his wages could be garnished for the next 21 years if the settlement goes against him.  How much you want to bet he won't be interested in seeing how he can protect what he's accumulated so far?[/quote]

1. If a lawsuit is already pending it is irrelevant. You can use his story to exemplify the need for annuities though

2. If he is being sued for 20mm and settles for >10mm, then he really F'd something up and will be judged fairly

3. I do think annuities have their place (that "guarantee" word) and clients DO deserve the opportunity to choose

[quote=JumpTheShark][quote=joelv72]

OK, client came to me with a VA that was being pitched by a bank advisor.  It had a hypo built in to the presentation that showed what $100K would do over the last 15 years, spread over 4 funds and how much better off they would be with the GMAB.  The only problem is, when I plug the same funds into morningstar (retail, not the insurance line crud), the hypo shows them significantly ahead of the GMAB, even with my advisory fee of 1.25% ($330K vs $365K).  That is with two very steep recessions built in, so you would think this is about as good of a 15 year period you could expect from a VA.  So, to all you annuity slingers, what is your come-back to that?

[/quote] You insult people by calling them "slingers" and expect them to help you? You are pathetic. What do YOU sling? Have you noticed that no annuity slinger has ever come here asking how to compete against a mutual fund slinger? You're going to lose some more assets to an annuity! Sucks to be you.[/quote]

Why would I want/or need an annuity salesman's help?  You know as well as I do that there are people that are prolific posters on this board that deal almost exlcusively in annuities.  If you would have actually read the post, you would see I was merely making a point and seeing if anyone in the annuity world could counter it.  I am actually gaining assets housed at the bank (CD's) that they tried to move into an annuity since their rates are in the crapper.  When the client saw through the fog, they decided to move here.

[quote=joelv72]

OK, client came to me with a VA that was being pitched by a bank advisor.  It had a hypo built in to the presentation that showed what $100K would do over the last 15 years, spread over 4 funds and how much better off they would be with the GMAB.  The only problem is, when I plug the same funds into morningstar (retail, not the insurance line crud), the hypo shows them significantly ahead of the GMAB, even with my advisory fee of 1.25% ($330K vs $365K).  That is with two very steep recessions built in, so you would think this is about as good of a 15 year period you could expect from a VA.  So, to all you annuity slingers, what is your come-back to that?

[/quote]

Joel,  My comeback is to tel them upfront that a VA will give them less money because of the additional fees.  However, that assumes that they will invest in the exact same manner in the VA that they would with the mutual funds.  I then explain that because of their risk tolerance, we would have to invest much more conservatively if we use mutual funds, so our choice is to be aggressive in a VA or conservative in a mutual fund.  I find that the true value of the guarantees of a VA is how they positively impact investor behavior.

[quote=JumpTheShark]Joel, only registered reps can give advice on VA's. Show them what you do and let them decide what's right for themselves.[/quote]

That's is one of the most retarded statements ever made on this forum.  I can give my clients advice on any of their investment assets, whether it was originated by me or not.  As far as an RIA originating a VA, google "No Load Variable Annuity".  Prudential, Fidelity, Vanguard, Pacific Life, the list goes on.  There is actually one out there that charges $20/month regardless of size, and has around 200 funds to choose from in the separate account.

[quote=JumpTheShark][quote=joelv72]

[quote=JumpTheShark]Joel, only registered reps can give advice on VA's. Show them what you do and let them decide what's right for themselves.[/quote]

That's is one of the most retarded statements ever made on this forum.  I can give my clients advice on any of their investment assets, whether it was originated by me or not.  As far as an RIA originating a VA, google "No Load Variable Annuity".  Prudential, Fidelity, Vanguard, Pacific Life, the list goes on.  There is actually one out there that charges $20/month regardless of size, and has around 200 funds to choose from in the separate account.

[/quote] I apologize. I didn't realize that you were an RIA with under $100,000 in assets on his ADV. I hope you can break the $100,000 mark this year. By the way...slamming the competition never works too well.[/quote]

But it sure is fun, especially if thats all you got. 

[quote=JumpTheShark][quote=joelv72]

[quote=JumpTheShark][quote=joelv72]

[quote=JumpTheShark]Joel, only registered reps can give advice on VA's. Show them what you do and let them decide what's right for themselves.[/quote]

That's is one of the most retarded statements ever made on this forum.  I can give my clients advice on any of their investment assets, whether it was originated by me or not.  As far as an RIA originating a VA, google "No Load Variable Annuity".  Prudential, Fidelity, Vanguard, Pacific Life, the list goes on.  There is actually one out there that charges $20/month regardless of size, and has around 200 funds to choose from in the separate account.

[/quote] I apologize. I didn't realize that you were an RIA with under $100,000 in assets on his ADV. I hope you can break the $100,000 mark this year. By the way...slamming the competition never works too well.[/quote]

But it sure is fun, especially if thats all you got. 

[/quote] when you advise people on insurance products, do you let them know that you don't have an insurance license and that you are breaking the law?[/quote]

I actually do have an insurance license.  I just don't sell commish product.  I refer that out to a local guy.  Next??

Hey there, Biofreeze, I mailed it in a couple of weeks ago due to the fact my previous BD couldn't get there ass in gear.  In the meantime, I do not need a license to offer advice if I am not offering any product.  I really don't see how studying for half a day to take a really cheesy test somehow makes you a grand pubaa.  BTW, Bobby, are you looking at my personal information from an outside forum which you help administer?  I call bad on that one.  How long until FINRA lets you back in or are you banned for life?

Oh, I see you logged off.  Cat got your tounge?

[quote=JumpTheShark][quote=joelv72]

Hey there, Biofreeze, I mailed it in a couple of weeks ago due to the fact my previous BD couldn't get there ass in gear.  In the meantime, I do not need a license to offer advice if I am not offering any product.  I really don't see how studying for half a day to take a really cheesy test somehow makes you a grand pubaa.  BTW, Bobby, are you looking at my personal information from an outside forum which you help administer?  I call bad on that one.  How long until FINRA lets you back in or are you banned for life?

[/quote] You mailed in your license? What does a b/d have to do with it? It's illegal to give advice on products that you are not licensed to sell. I'm someone that you know personally. How do you think I'm catching you in your lies?[/quote]

I guaranty you, you do not know me personally, but you are using personal information you have access to as admin of another forum.  I passed the test a long time ago, but for one reason or another the application never made it to the state, that was my former B/D not mailing it in, and I guess my bad too for not noticing it.  I didn't sell and do not intend to sell insurance so it was never an issue.  BTW, I can give all the free advice in the world. 

[quote=JumpTheShark][quote=joelv72]

[quote=JumpTheShark][quote=joelv72]

Hey there, Biofreeze, I mailed it in a couple of weeks ago due to the fact my previous BD couldn't get there ass in gear.  In the meantime, I do not need a license to offer advice if I am not offering any product.  I really don't see how studying for half a day to take a really cheesy test somehow makes you a grand pubaa.  BTW, Bobby, are you looking at my personal information from an outside forum which you help administer?  I call bad on that one.  How long until FINRA lets you back in or are you banned for life?

[/quote] You mailed in your license? What does a b/d have to do with it? It's illegal to give advice on products that you are not licensed to sell. I'm someone that you know personally. How do you think I'm catching you in your lies?[/quote]

I guaranty you, you do not know me personally, but you are using personal information you have access to as admin of another forum.  I passed the test a long time ago, but for one reason or another the application never made it to the state, that was my former B/D not mailing it in, and I guess my bad too for not noticing it.  I didn't sell and do not intend to sell insurance so it was never an issue.  BTW, I can give all the free advice in the world. 

[/quote] Interesting....you applied to take the exam after you took the exam? You are lying. What the hell is this other forum that you are talking about?[/quote]

Application for licensure, which you must send in AFTER passing the test.  Now I'm starting to wonder if you are licensed.