Survivor
Who here expect to be in this business a year from now? and why?
I’ll be here. I’ve always been able to figure out what people want to buy then I sell it to them.
I’ll be here. Mostly because I am too stubborn to admit defeat.
Hank,
As someone so active in re-affirming what our legally-mandated responsibilities are as RR’s, that answer seems to imply that you may not always practice that which you preach.
I’ll be here because people need me and I also know how to sell.
[quote=YHWY]Hank,
As someone so active in re-affirming what our legally-mandated responsibilities are as RR’s, that answer seems to imply that you may not always practice that which you preach.
[/quote]
What do I preach and how does my answer conflict with that?
Hank,
You “preach” about all of our legal obligations to “know our clients” and only recommend investments that are suitable to their individual situation, needs, risk tolerance, etc.
Then you wrote that, “I’ve always been able to figure out what people want to buy then I sell it to them.” Perhaps I am inferring too much, but that sounds a lot like admitting that you sell products because they are easy to sell, which is in direct conflict with the former. The scenario I imagined as a question was, Have you ever had a client “tell you that they wanted to buy” an investment that would not risk loosing any of their principal and then “Sold” them a fixed, variable or equity indexed annuity?
You'll see in a previous thread where he recommended the Allianz Master Dex 10. That is the biggest crap indexed annuity of all time.
He'll be on Dateline before it's all said and done with.I’ll be here because I had the perspective of the last bear market to guide my overall philosophy. Every bear market teaches powerful lessons and this one is no different. Lessons learned from the last one caused me to use a fair number of equity-based mechanisms to protect people who could ill-afford to lose money in the market. These folks have seen firsthand, the benefit of income and principal riders in VAs…of structured notes…of balanced portfolios…of keeping 2 years worth of cash on the sideline, etc.,etc.,etc. While they haven’t all been unscathed by this market, most have at least a portion of their portfolio that they feel good about. My largest clients, with the exception of two, are mostly older, non-equity investors.
I won't tell you that I saw this coming because I didn't...not to the degree we've gotten it anyway. Most of us didn't see the depth of the plunge. A few crackpots forecasted it accurately, but if you look at their long-term records of calling the market, they don't know shit either. I had a boss back in the 90's that called a crash in 1995. He was five years early and it cost him his job and ultimately bankrupcy, so I've always taken a middle of the road approach to client money, regardless of how bullish or bearish I felt at the time. Like Mike said...I'm a survivor because people need me. I've promised clients and prospects that, short of my premature death or disability, I see myself sitting in this chair for a long time to come. There is a part of me that is glad to see these kind of markets happen for a couple of reasons. First, when you get a client through a market like this mostly intact and they get to share in the recovery, it forms a lasting bond. The bank found out just how strong that bond was when I left some years ago. Two, this kind of market weeds out the weak advisors who shouldn't be in the business to begin with. I told someone not long ago...perhaps even on here...if stocks always went up, we'd have sixteen million advisors in this country by now. Worse yet, we'd probably average about $40,000 gross a year and have twelve clients each. This is in a perverse way, a healthy thing for our industry. With some of the goofy shit I've read here, we were probably due for a purge anyway. For those of you who survive, it only makes you stronger and a better advisor. Be thankful for that.[quote=YHWY]Hank,
You “preach” about all of our legal obligations to “know our clients” and only recommend investments that are suitable to their individual situation, needs, risk tolerance, etc.
Then you wrote that, “I’ve always been able to figure out what people want to buy then I sell it to them.” Perhaps I am inferring too much, but that sounds a lot like admitting that you sell products because they are easy to sell, which is in direct conflict with the former. The scenario I imagined as a question was, Have you ever had a client “tell you that they wanted to buy” an investment that would not risk loosing any of their principal and then “Sold” them a fixed, variable or equity indexed annuity?
[/quote]
Point out ONE post where I preached what you say I’ve preached. Also, share with me why I should sell things that people don’t want to buy.
Examples of your citing legal obligations to our clients:
[quote=Hank Moody]I hope that those who have responded to this this
person are registered in the state where he/she lives. Otherwise, they
are breaking the law.
[/quote]
[quote=Hank Moody]
A good rule of thumb would be to ask yourself if you would be
comfortable telling your compliance director to review this
communication with the public that you didn’t get prior approval to
make.
[/quote]
[quote=Hank Moody]
[/quote]
[quote=Hank Moody]
It is illegal for us to discuss investments with you. Furthermore, it is compounded when we give you advice on how to advise your aunt. What part of that don't you understand? You might want to bring it up in your next therapy session. We are not here to give free advice to someone that is too cheap to pay for it.
[/quote]
to name a few. As far as my inference that you may not always sell products based predominently on client benefit, I submit these:
[quote=Hank Moody]
I've learned a new trick. Index Annuities. I did a little over $300,000 yesterday. I hate working weekends, but my office is only 5 minutes from home and I got paid 8%.
[/quote]
and:
[quote=Hank Moody] [quote=YHWY]Great job, "Hank". That's a good day's work. I trust that the carrier you chose has the financial strength to honor its guarantees and commitments going forward. [/quote]
We'll find out.
[/quote]
Now, I re-submit my question. Have you ever had a client "tell you that they wanted to buy" an investment that would not risk loosing any of their principal and then "Sold" them a fixed, variable or equity indexed annuity?
YHWY,
All your questoins about Hank will be answered if you read the "Worst case scenario thread". He admits that he lies to sell product, regardless of the situation.
Since I began re-visiting this site (for better or worse) I’ve tried to make a concerted effort to be polite and tactful, but I suspect your assertion may well be accurate.
[quote=the word]
YHWY,
All your questoins about Hank will be answered if you read the "Worst case scenario thread". He admits that he lies to sell product, regardless of the situation.
[/quote]Point me to the post where I admit to lying.
[quote=YHWY]Examples of your citing legal obligations to our clients:
[quote=Hank Moody]I hope that those who have responded to this this
person are registered in the state where he/she lives. Otherwise, they
are breaking the law.
[/quote]
[quote=Hank Moody]
A good rule of thumb would be to ask yourself if you would be
comfortable telling your compliance director to review this
communication with the public that you didn’t get prior approval to
make.
[/quote]
[quote=Hank Moody]
[/quote]
[quote=Hank Moody]
It is illegal for us to discuss investments with you. Furthermore, it is compounded when we give you advice on how to advise your aunt. What part of that don't you understand? You might want to bring it up in your next therapy session. We are not here to give free advice to someone that is too cheap to pay for it.
[/quote]
to name a few. As far as my inference that you may not always sell products based predominently on client benefit, I submit these:
[quote=Hank Moody]
I've learned a new trick. Index Annuities. I did a little over $300,000 yesterday. I hate working weekends, but my office is only 5 minutes from home and I got paid 8%.
[/quote]
and:
[quote=Hank Moody] [quote=YHWY]Great job, "Hank". That's a good day's work. I trust that the carrier you chose has the financial strength to honor its guarantees and commitments going forward. [/quote]
We'll find out.
[/quote]
Now, I re-submit my question. Have you ever had a client "tell you that they wanted to buy" an investment that would not risk loosing any of their principal and then "Sold" them a fixed, variable or equity indexed annuity?
[/quote]
There is NO such thing as an investment that can't "loose" principal, given the perfect storm. As an alternative to nothing, I've sold those products.
Treasure Bonds (especially short-term) and FDIC insured CD’s are widely considered by the industry to be “riskless” as to loss of principal. I believe your position is very close to the line of misrepresentation.
What if the US loses its AAA status? What if so many banks fail, there isn't enough FDIC insurance without printing so much money that dollar is worth less than the ink that's printed on it? In a perfect storm, it could happen.Treasure Bonds (especially short-term) and FDIC insured CD’s are widely considered by the industry to be “riskless” as to loss of principal. I believe your position is very close to the line of misrepresentation.
Let’s not delude ourselves here. Yes, If the hand of God itself swooped from heaven and decimated the USA, then nothing is “riskless”. But, let’s be realistic, the chances of the US Treasury defaulting on Treasury Bonds or on FDIC Insured accounts is not even the same sport as, say, Allianz being unable to pay promised benefits to their EIA holders.
[quote=YHWY]Treasure Bonds (especially short-term) and FDIC insured CD’s are widely considered by the industry to be “riskless” as to loss of principal. I believe your position is very close to the line of misrepresentation.
[/quote]
Can you point me to the industry list of riskless instruments? I appreciate all of your concern, but I’m going to stick to what I’m doing. It’s working.
[quote=YHWY]Let’s not delude ourselves here. Yes, If the hand of God itself swooped from heaven and decimated the USA, then nothing is “riskless”. But, let’s be realistic, the chances of the US Treasury defaulting on Treasury Bonds or on FDIC Insured accounts is not even the same sport as, say, Allianz being unable to pay promised benefits to their EIA holders.
[/quote]
Return of principal is NOT a benefit. Have you seen the recent S&P affirmation of Allianz’s AA rating?
Really, return of principal is NOT a benefit??? Then why are the shortest term Treasuries selling at such a frantic rate that their yield is almost exactly zero? Those bond traders must be idiots if return of principal isn’t a benefit.
Yes, I have reviewed most of the major insurer’s current ratings. Are you saying there is similar chance of Allianz and the US Treasury defaulting on their investment vehicles?
[quote=YHWY]Treasure Bonds (especially short-term) and FDIC insured CD’s are widely considered by the industry to be “riskless” as to loss of principal. I believe your position is very close to the line of misrepresentation.
[/quote]
What if the client sells T-bonds or CD’s prior to maturity? Are they indeed risk-less?
Look, I made myself clear regarding what “riskless” is considered to be in our industry. I am willing to stipulate that nothing is “truly” riskless, if that moves us on (your matress could burn, you could forget where you burried it, etc.). My point is that annuities are NOT anywhere near as safe as treasuries and CD, and if you’re not expressing that fact to your clients, then you are bieng dishonest.
[quote=HymanRoth]
[quote=YHWY]Treasure Bonds (especially short-term) and FDIC insured CD’s are widely considered by the industry to be “riskless” as to loss of principal. I believe your position is very close to the line of misrepresentation.
[/quote]
What if the client sells T-bonds or CD’s prior to maturity? Are they indeed risk-less?
[/quote]
Those 30 year surrender periods are going to be a bitch when rates rise.
Crymani! I get it already! Allianz Insurance = US Treasury insurance. I can’t argue with that anymore, you guys win, just have a good attorney on retainer, you know, just in case the Treasury fails.
[quote=YHWY]Look, I made myself clear regarding what “riskless” is considered to be in our industry. I am willing to stipulate that nothing is “truly” riskless, if that moves us on (your matress could burn, you could forget where you burried it, etc.). My point is that annuities are NOT anywhere near as safe as treasuries and CD, and if you’re not expressing that fact to your clients, then you are bieng dishonest.
[/quote]
What I say or don’t say to anyone is none of your business. How do you think I’ve lasted as long as have without the benefit of YOUR point that annuities are not as safe as treasuries and CD’s? Why is it so important to you that I internalize YOUR point? The only “point” you have is covered with hair.
this argument jumped the shark awhile ago, but you guys are using “credit ratings” as if they are legit?
Hank,
I don’t give a shit what you do. Just save the condescending annuity-salesman pitch bullshit. We aren’t your rube clients, remember?
Man, and I’ve been trying so hard to be nice. Oh well.
[quote=YHWY]Hank,
I don’t give a shit what you do. Just save the condescending annuity-salesman pitch bullshit. We aren’t your rube clients, remember?
Man, and I’ve been trying so hard to be nice. Oh well.
[/quote]
I’m delighted that I’ve elicited an emotional response from you. Consider yourself owned.
LOL…I knew from the first page of this thread that we’d be in a pissing match before it was over…
So EZ...I assume this question is on your mind for a reason...how about you...you gonna make it? Why or why not?Who here expect to be in this business a year from now? and why?
Here’s my thought: What else am I good at? Video games? Ice cream tester? What else would I like to be doing if not this? I’d love to teach, but you get paid horribly and I’d have to go back to school. It’s just not worth it. I’d love to be a mechanic, but who would I work for. And I don’t want to fix Accords or Sedonas. If I’m gonna bust my knuckles like that I want it to be on a 67 Shelby or a 69 Boss 302. You know, a car that means something other than transportation. If you’re working on a car like that and your knuckles are bleeding at the end of the day, you still had fun. If your knuckles are bleeding from some soccer mom’s minivan, you’re just pissed.
So, my choice is to focus on continuing to build my business. I think now would be a great time to start building that fee based biz that Jones launched. Had I started it last year I'd be pissed that my income just got cut by a third to half. Now, I can't see it doing much but holding steady for a whilebefore it starts to rise rapidly. Seems like pretty good timing. I had a mentor that told me that 90% of this business is just making it one more year. It's not about hitting this years over inflated goals you put on your business plan or trying to make the company happy with you. It's just surviving to get to play the game some more. This too shall pass. Now isn't the time to fold. With that said, since my local Blue Bunny distributor isn't hiring, I'm gonna make some phone calls.Sage perspective, Spiff. And I 'preciate your taste in wheels, as well.
[quote=Hank Moody] [quote=the word]
YHWY,
All your questoins about Hank will be answered if you read the "Worst case scenario thread". He admits that he lies to sell product, regardless of the situation.
[/quote]Point me to the post where I admit to lying.
[/quote] Your right. You don't admit to lying, you just tell the lies and hope your client doesn't catch on. My bad.
[quote=the word][quote=Hank Moody] [quote=the word]
YHWY,
All your questoins about Hank will be answered if you read the "Worst case scenario thread". He admits that he lies to sell product, regardless of the situation.
[/quote]Point me to the post where I admit to lying.
[/quote] Your right. You don't admit to lying, you just tell the lies and hope your client doesn't catch on. My bad.[/quote]
You just told a lie about me and you're calling me a liar?
Hank,
I’m done arguing with you. When beaten on one front, you nimbly switch to another. Have fun with that.
I will, however, submit that you, by way of omission or obfuscation, “lie” ,in effect, about the default risk inherent in, especially fixed (including EI), annuities. I’m sure you’ll have a snappy retort to that claim. I leave it to other reader here to form their own opinions. (if they care, which I doubt).
I have to believe Hank has figured out the more you disclose, the more you sell.Hank,
I’m done arguing with you. When beaten on one front, you nimbly switch to another. Have fun with that.
I will, however, submit that you, by way of omission or obfuscation, “lie” ,in effect, about the default risk inherent in, especially fixed (including EI), annuities. I’m sure you’ll have a snappy retort to that claim. I leave it to other reader here to form their own opinions. (if they care, which I doubt).
[quote=YHWY]Hank,
I’m done arguing with you. When beaten on one front, you nimbly switch to another. Have fun with that.
I will, however, submit that you, by way of omission or obfuscation, “lie” ,in effect, about the default risk inherent in, especially fixed (including EI), annuities. I’m sure you’ll have a snappy retort to that claim. I leave it to other reader here to form their own opinions. (if they care, which I doubt).
[/quote]
How can I argue with someone who LIES about what I say? Just because YOU are too much of a coward to do annuity business doesn’t mean that I am. Just because YOU can’t sell an annuity without lying doesn’t mean the rest of us can’t.
Originally posted by the word
No way i need to calm down. I have to sit here and listen to Bobby spew his smartass comments from his perch on high. You better beleive I am going to let him know when he is wrong and is lying. As is the case in this thread. Snags, I'm not calling my wholesaler for objective info. All of what you said is relevant and I've heard it all before. Like, I said we can agree to disagree. I will not sell them until their is more clarity about the indusrty.
Originally posted by Hank Moody
"Mr. Prospect, I can guarantee you that your worst case scenario will be a 10% lifetime cash flow on ALL of the money you have invested." How is THAT for some clarity?
What kind of clarity do you require? Do you need Balack Obama to tell you that everything's going to be ok? Personally, I'm glad that you can't figure out what to sell. Less competition for the rest of us who have figured out that clients want guarantees. I don't remember being as naive as you when I was 27.
Originally posted by the word
You already admitted that this was a lie. Worst case is you are stuck with your account value after the annuity company goes under. Why do you insist on lying to your clients to make a sell? The clarity I need is for AIG to not need to beg for emergeny capital from the US government, for ING not to beg for emergency capital from the Dutch government, for Hartford to not need emergency capital from Allianz. I would argue that that a sell does not need to be made in every environment. New Post: Well Hank, above is your post from the other thread, with the lie you tell to the prospect underlined and in red. Your words, not mine. Please tell us how that statement is not a lie.
So EZ...I assume this question is on your mind for a reason...how about you...you gonna make it? Why or why not?[/quote] And.....back to the topic at hand. I find it quite remarkable that people would decide to join this industry at a time like this. We all know that it is not the worst time to enter this business, but if I were contemplating it, I highly doubt I would have made the leap at a time like this. I must say, I see a LOT of fear among fellow FA's, even some veterans. Some of them are questioning WTF they are doing. Questioning how they got their clients inot this mess. Many of them that have been out over 10 years made it through 00-02 relatively unscathed because they were very conservative, and fixed income and value did relatively well during that time period. But they look at today, when even a 30/70 portfolio is down 15-20%, a portfolio that has maybe NEVER had a down year based on a 20 year backtest, and they start to wonder if times are changing. Real fear. But I'll be here a year from now. My only fear is my lack of income right now.[quote=ezmoney]Who here expect to be in this business a year from now? and why?
I think now would be a great time for new advisors, but only if you are telling a different story. I think pitching well known mutual funds, will get you nothing in this kind of market, because that is what everyone has…
[quote=the word]
Originally posted by the word
No way i need to calm down. I have to sit here and listen to Bobby spew his smartass comments from his perch on high. You better beleive I am going to let him know when he is wrong and is lying. As is the case in this thread. Snags, I'm not calling my wholesaler for objective info. All of what you said is relevant and I've heard it all before. Like, I said we can agree to disagree. I will not sell them until their is more clarity about the indusrty.
Originally posted by Hank Moody
"Mr. Prospect, I can guarantee you that your worst case scenario will be a 10% lifetime cash flow on ALL of the money you have invested." How is THAT for some clarity?
What kind of clarity do you require? Do you need Balack Obama to tell you that everything's going to be ok? Personally, I'm glad that you can't figure out what to sell. Less competition for the rest of us who have figured out that clients want guarantees. I don't remember being as naive as you when I was 27.
Originally posted by the word
You already admitted that this was a lie. Worst case is you are stuck with your account value after the annuity company goes under. Why do you insist on lying to your clients to make a sell? The clarity I need is for AIG to not need to beg for emergeny capital from the US government, for ING not to beg for emergency capital from the Dutch government, for Hartford to not need emergency capital from Allianz. I would argue that that a sell does not need to be made in every environment. New Post: Well Hank, above is your post from the other thread, with the lie you tell to the prospect underlined and in red. Your words, not mine. Please tell us how that statement is not a lie. [/quote]
It is not a lie because it is the truth.
I’ll make it just fine. My recurring income is to the point where I can pick and choose my clients with no pressure to pay the bills. I’m a bit lazy, but i’ll grow it at my pace and have more fun doing it. i’ll be around for a long time.
[quote=B24]
I must say, I see a LOT of fear among fellow FA's, even some veterans. Some of them are questioning WTF they are doing. Questioning how they got their clients inot this mess. Many of them that have been out over 10 years made it through 00-02 relatively unscathed because they were very conservative, and fixed income and value did relatively well during that time period. But they look at today, when even a 30/70 portfolio is down 15-20%, a portfolio that has maybe NEVER had a down year based on a 20 year backtest, and they start to wonder if times are changing. Real fear. But I'll be here a year from now. My only fear is my lack of income right now.[/quote] Interesting comment. I had the most senior advisor in my office tell me the other day how he expects a good year in 09 to only have your production down by 25%. He was relaying a conversation with another senior guy who thinks his production will not suffer at all next year, even though the guy has not added a new client in years. I think the latter advisor has firmly planted his head in the ground.Yeah. He seems content to be doing the production of someone 5 years in although he has been in the business more than 30 years. I think he is just burned out but feels he has no other options.How could you “not land a new client in years?” Seriously. I’ve been out 15 months - and I think that even if I locked myself in my closet, I’d STILL get a reasonable amount of referrals, even without asking for them. Not a SINGLE client in YEARS (plural)?!?!?!
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