Addicted to cnn!

Aug 31, 2005 11:57 pm

I can't look away!  I have been watching this stuff for days.....  I can't believe something like this happened in this country.....

We need To pray for these people!

Sep 1, 2005 8:35 pm

I wish Put Trader was here.  I’m sure he’d have some kind things
to say about all those dark-skinned looters in New Ohrleahns.




Sep 1, 2005 8:42 pm

inquisitive

Thats uncalled for. I do not think any of this is a laughing matter!

Sep 1, 2005 8:45 pm

indytwo,

Unfortunately you haven't been here long enough to understand the mentality of certain folks on this forum.

The good thing is that they tend to reveal themselves (as you can see).

Sep 1, 2005 8:52 pm

menotellname

 I guess you will find ignorance no matter where you are! 

Sep 1, 2005 9:05 pm

[quote=menotellname]

indytwo,

Unfortunately you haven't been here long enough to understand the mentality of certain folks on this forum.

The good thing is that they tend to reveal themselves (as you can see).

[/quote]

Hey, who's down in New Ohrleahns shooting at rescue helicopters?



They are shooting at the people coming to help them. 
Sep 1, 2005 9:28 pm

Not only are they shooting at rescue helicopters, they’re shooting at hospital workers!



http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.impact/index .html



New Orleans’ Charity Hospital halted efforts to evacuate its patients
after it came under sniper fire, according to Dr. Tyler Curiel, who
witnessed the incidents.


"We were coming in from a parking deck at Tulane Medical Center, and a guy in a white shirt started firing at us," Curiel said. "The National Guard (troops), wearing flak jackets, tried to get a bead on this guy. "

The incident happened around 11:30 a.m. (12:30 p.m. ET). About an hour later, another gunman opened fire at the back of Charity Hospital.

Evacuations by boat were halted after armed looters threatened medics, and overturned one of their boats.

The sniper attacks were the latest incidents of violence that have disrupted efforts to help people in the flooded city.

I guess every few minutes you can hear gunfire in New Orleans.  And in Mississippi?  The same thing!

I'm sure Put would have some choice, and hillarious, things to say about this!

Sep 1, 2005 9:49 pm

[quote=inquisitive] [quote=menotellname]

indytwo,

Unfortunately you haven't been here long enough to understand the mentality of certain folks on this forum.

The good thing is that they tend to reveal themselves (as you can see).

[/quote]

Hey, who's down in New Ohrleahns shooting at rescue helicopters?



They are shooting at the people coming to help them. 
[/quote]

I am sure that you know all of the names and races of those that are shooting...right?

Or at least you THINK you do...

Sep 1, 2005 9:52 pm

[quote=inquisitive]Not only are they shooting at rescue helicopters, they’re shooting at hospital workers!

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.impact/index .html

New Orleans’ Charity Hospital halted efforts to evacuate its patients after it came under sniper fire, according to Dr. Tyler Curiel, who witnessed the incidents.

"We were coming in from a parking deck at Tulane Medical Center, and a guy in a white shirt started firing at us," Curiel said. "The National Guard (troops), wearing flak jackets, tried to get a bead on this guy. "

The incident happened around 11:30 a.m. (12:30 p.m. ET). About an hour later, another gunman opened fire at the back of Charity Hospital.

Evacuations by boat were halted after armed looters threatened medics, and overturned one of their boats.

The sniper attacks were the latest incidents of violence that have disrupted efforts to help people in the flooded city.

I guess every few minutes you can hear gunfire in New Orleans.  And in Mississippi?  The same thing!

I'm sure Put would have some choice, and hillarious, things to say about this!

[/quote]

Yeah...Put was loved, admired, and respected for his intelligence and sense of humor.  Just like you.

Sep 1, 2005 9:56 pm

inquisitive

 Wow! Your are a real stand up guy laughing at this situation! 

Sep 1, 2005 10:02 pm

You know, many of these people did'nt have a lot,.....and now they have nothing....I saw one woman on the news carrying her infant in a car seat, with 2-3 other kids behind her, crossing a bridge - in 100 + degree temp. to hopefuly find......something...better.

Be thankful.

Sep 1, 2005 10:11 pm

Inquisitive you have the sensitivity of a rock. Shame on you.

Sep 1, 2005 10:37 pm

[quote=indytwo]

inquisitive

 Wow! Your are a real stand up guy laughing at this situation! 

[/quote]

I'm not laughing at the situation.  A horrible tragedy.  I am, however, laughing at the idiocy and stupidity of the utter morons who are sabotaging the relief efforts to help them!

They're shooting at the rescuers!

Come on--if you were a member of the National Guard or a private citizen, would you want to be shot at?  Would you want to be randomly attacked for NO REASON?

This looks just like Africa.  Just like it. 

My goodness, some of those women have 4 or 5 babies. 



Sep 1, 2005 10:41 pm

[quote=moneyadvisor]

You know, many of these people did’nt have a lot,

[/quote]

They didn't have a lot because they were welfare parasites.  They didn't work!

Being an average, middle-class american is NOT difficult.

[quote=moneyadvisor]
.....and now they have nothing....I saw one woman on the news carrying her infant in a car seat, with 2-3 other kids behind her, crossing a bridge - in 100 + degree temp. to hopefuly find......something...better.

Be thankful.

[/quote]

I'm thankful all right.

Maybe those lazy welfare bastards should get jobs and maybe save some money for a car so they can get out of town next time.

Why would they build a city on a swamp below sea level anyway?



Sep 1, 2005 10:43 pm

[quote=inquisitive] [quote=indytwo]

inquisitive

 Wow! Your are a real stand up guy laughing at this situation! 

[/quote]

I'm not laughing at the situation.  A horrible tragedy.  I am, however, laughing at the idiocy and stupidity of the utter morons who are sabotaging the relief efforts to help them!

They're shooting at the rescuers!

Come on--if you were a member of the National Guard or a private citizen, would you want to be shot at?  Would you want to be randomly attacked for NO REASON?

This looks just like Africa.  Just like it. 

My goodness, some of those women have 4 or 5 babies. 



[/quote]

Unfortunately you are too ignorant to understand the context of the shots.  Most of the shots fired are done to get the attention of the rescuers that routinely bypass those in need...not to harm them.  Kind of like warning shots...only these are signal shots.

You are the type of dumbass that wouldn't understand the purpose of wildfire firefighters setting a back fire.

Perhaps you should think a little bit more before you post.  How about a 24 hour delay before you post something that comes into your teeny little head.

Sep 1, 2005 10:46 pm

[quote=cend]Inquisitive you have the sensitivity of a rock. Shame on you. [/quote]

More correctly...he has the mentality of a common house plant.

Sep 2, 2005 2:36 am

Regardless of the color of your skin, it doesn't get much lower in the evolutionary chain than looting TV sets out of stores when the owner's been chased away by the worst natural disaster ever to hit your town...and frankly, I believe there are plenty of scum actually sabotaging rescue efforts in the hurricane region.  Shame on those idiots...they don't deserve your defense.  I'm all for helping those who are truly in need, but I have no sympathy for those who are obviously taking advantage of the situation.  I'm also having a hard time finding a plausible defense for those shooting at and harrassing rescuers.

Obviously we should feel for those who are suffering as a result of this tragedy, but it's becoming more apparent that there are criminals and thugs taking advantage of the situation and doing what comes naturally.  For those folks, it's just a shame they weren't the ones swept away.

Sep 2, 2005 3:27 am

He is not put.  I am put.

Sep 2, 2005 3:40 am

inquisitive

I agree that those who are causing the problem are 100% thugs! They should be caught and hung in my eyes.  My point is that you shouldnt bring color into this.  If this would have happend in a poor white area do you really think the results wouldnt be the same! 

I also dont understand why you think this is funny.  There is nothing funny about whats happening there.  People are dieing because of these actions!  Man that is not funny! 

Sep 2, 2005 4:07 am

My son finally got a tank of Gas and is on his way home. I have never seen my wife this happy in 26 years.

Sep 2, 2005 4:13 am

Babyfat

 

Glad to hear your son is ok!  Was he in the middle of all this?

Sep 2, 2005 11:58 am

[quote=menotellname] 

Unfortunately you are too ignorant to understand the context of the shots.  Most of the shots fired are done to get the attention of the rescuers that routinely bypass those in need...not to harm them.  Kind of like warning shots...only these are signal shots.
[/quote]
Hahahaha.  That's funny.  Snipers taking aim at rescuers to "get their attention".  Hahahaha.

I'll tell you what, menotellname, why don't you go get a gun and try to "get the attention" of some cops by shooting at them.

Hahahaha.

By the way, the looters also tipped over rescue boats.  Do you get rescuers' attention by dumping them in the contaminated floodwater?

Hahahaha.

[quote=menotellname]

You are the type of dumbass that wouldn't understand the purpose of wildfire firefighters setting a back fire.
[/quote]
So all this ethnic crime and violence--which is NO DIFFERENT than what we see in any ethnic neighborhood on ANY given night--is preventative?

Hahahaha.

[quote=menotellname]

Perhaps you should think a little bit more before you post.  How about a 24 hour delay before you post something that comes into your teeny little head.

[/quote]
How about you look at the ethnic crime rates in London or Canadian cities and tell me what you see?  It's no different than what you see in DC, Detroit, Chicago, or any formerly-great city invaded by a destructive force that does not belong and is cognitively incapable of creating such a society for itself.

Here's some reading for you, my friend:

http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200407/20040715/tows_slide _20040715_01.jhtml

"People are dying of AIDS in South Africa more than any other country. The country is now in the midst of a horrifying epidemic—baby rape. Barely a day goes by that a child under the age of one is sexually assaulted. Experts say the attacks are fueled by a bizarre belief among many African men suffering from HIV/AIDS."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1703595.stm

Two men are due to appear at a court in Johannesburg on Tuesday, accused of raping a five-month-old girl who was discovered covered in blood and in tears.

Every day the newspapers bring awful revelations: a nine-month-old girl gang-raped by six men; an eight-month-old raped and left by the roadside.

Is raping babies a good way to get attention?  Or is that what an intelligent people does?


Sep 2, 2005 12:09 pm

Thanks, he's just fine got home last night around 3. He took a much needed bath, had a huge meal and is sleeping in his old bead 

My wife is now determined to offer our other sons room to a Katrina survivor.

Sep 2, 2005 1:13 pm

[quote=inquisitive] [quote=menotellname] 

Unfortunately you are too ignorant to understand the context of the shots.  Most of the shots fired are done to get the attention of the rescuers that routinely bypass those in need...not to harm them.  Kind of like warning shots...only these are signal shots.
[/quote]
Hahahaha.  That's funny.  Snipers taking aim at rescuers to "get their attention".  Hahahaha.

I'll tell you what, menotellname, why don't you go get a gun and try to "get the attention" of some cops by shooting at them.

Hahahaha.

By the way, the looters also tipped over rescue boats.  Do you get rescuers' attention by dumping them in the contaminated floodwater?

Hahahaha.
[quote=menotellname]

You are the type of dumbass that wouldn't understand the purpose of wildfire firefighters setting a back fire.
[/quote]
So all this ethnic crime and violence--which is NO DIFFERENT than what we see in any ethnic neighborhood on ANY given night--is preventative?

Hahahaha.
[quote=menotellname]

Perhaps you should think a little bit more before you post.  How about a 24 hour delay before you post something that comes into your teeny little head.

[/quote]
How about you look at the ethnic crime rates in London or Canadian cities and tell me what you see?  It's no different than what you see in DC, Detroit, Chicago, or any formerly-great city invaded by a destructive force that does not belong and is cognitively incapable of creating such a society for itself.

Here's some reading for you, my friend:

http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200407/20040715/tows_slide _20040715_01.jhtml

"People are dying of AIDS in South Africa more than any other country. The country is now in the midst of a horrifying epidemic—baby rape. Barely a day goes by that a child under the age of one is sexually assaulted. Experts say the attacks are fueled by a bizarre belief among many African men suffering from HIV/AIDS."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1703595.stm

Two men are due to appear at a court in Johannesburg on Tuesday, accused of raping a five-month-old girl who was discovered covered in blood and in tears.

Every day the newspapers bring awful revelations: a nine-month-old girl gang-raped by six men; an eight-month-old raped and left by the roadside.

Is raping babies a good way to get attention?  Or is that what an intelligent people does?


[/quote]

Seems to me that most of the rapists in America are white males.  Especially those that rape 5 month olds.  Check the stats.

I am sure that the posts about Africa mean something to you.  Should I post something about the poor white trash that dominates the welfare payrolls here...

Obviously you have never been in adverse conditions and resorted to extreme measures.  Firing a bullet in the air when a plane is near is no different than firing a flare in the air when a plane is near.  Both are meant as signals but also pose and eminent threat to the plane itself.

By your nature you have proven yourself incapable of meaningful debate.

Sep 2, 2005 1:36 pm

Don’t spend anymore time trying to educate Inquisitive, it’s clearly a just as waste. Sadly, there must be a village looking for him somewhere.   

Sep 2, 2005 2:10 pm

babyfat

Thats Awesome!  Very nice gesture to offer up your other sons room!

Sep 2, 2005 4:16 pm

Inquisitive sounds like he's late for a Kaln meeting and the guy claiming the snipers are just firing to attract attention sounds like his meds need to be adjusted. Could it be the battle of competing bigots?

Sep 2, 2005 5:24 pm

Hmmmmm...shooting a helicopter that is hovering in close proximity to you is rather easy...even if you are blind (follow the sounds).

You would think that they could shoot such a target if they were trying to hit it.  If untrained Iraqi's can do it so can untrained US citizens.  Unless...they aren't trying to shoot the choppers at all.

Sep 2, 2005 5:41 pm

Are you somehow under the impression that:

a) The pilot of the aircraft didn't know the people were below him and

b) You can actually hear a gunshot while hovering in a helicopter?

Truly, you're more stupid than I even suspected! 

Sep 2, 2005 6:13 pm

[quote=menotellname]

Seems to me that most of the rapists in America are white males.
[/quote]

Not true at all.  In fact, blacks are 3 times more likely to commit rape than whites and hispanics.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/web/offreported/02-nforc iblerape04.html

34% of all people arrested for forcible rape are black.  Blacks represent only 12.5% of the population.

[quote=menotellname]
  Especially those that rape 5 month olds.  Check the stats.
[/quote]
See above.

[quote=menotellname]

I am sure that the posts about Africa mean something to you.  Should I post something about the poor white trash that dominates the welfare payrolls here...
[/quote]
Go ahead.  Please do.

And how many of them have rap sheets?

[quote=menotellname]

Obviously you have never been in adverse conditions and resorted to extreme measures. 

[/quote]
Extreme measures?  Are you insane?  I can completely understand looting of food and water.  There is no excuse for rape, murder, shootings, etc.  No excuse at all.

These aren't extreme measures.  This is how these people behave without a strong police presence to keep them in check.

[quote=menotellname]

Firing a bullet in the air when a plane is near is no different than firing a flare in the air when a plane is near. 

[/quote]
Yes, it is much different.  First off, those bullets aren't tracers--which are hard to see during the day, anyway.  Second, I wouldn't expect someone to see a muzzle flash if they weren't looking for one.

Why can't they use flashlights?

I know, I know, you're just making stuff up.  I hope you're a better investment advisor than you are a liar. 

[quote=menotellname]

Both are meant as signals but also pose and eminent threat to the plane itself.
[/quote]
I know that you don't actually believe this stuff.

What about the rapes in New Orleans?  Is that to send a signal, too?

[quote=menotellname]

By your nature you have proven yourself incapable of meaningful debate.[/quote]

This coming from a man who makes up ludicrous excuses for socio-pathic behavior.

Ah, perhaps I'm venting.  But this is disgusting.  It really is.  During a time where everyone should pitch in and help, we have an entire ethnic group whining and complaining, committing crime, and trying to murder helpers.

Sickening.

One more thing before I begin my holiday weekend:

It is estimated that 1 out of every 3 black males will serve time in state or federal prison.  That doesn't include probation or county jail time.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm

Have a nice weekend.

Sep 2, 2005 6:13 pm

You have to be either brain-dead or hyper-PC to the point of insanity find a way to excuse snipers shooting at relief workers.

Sep 2, 2005 6:33 pm

Gee Sniper (love the name)...which one is it?

First you agree with your friend inquisitve...then you call him names.  Just kiss and make up.

Sep 2, 2005 6:38 pm

[quote=inquisitive] [quote=menotellname]

Seems to me that most of the rapists in America are white males.
[/quote]

Not true at all.  In fact, blacks are 3 times more likely to commit rape than whites and hispanics.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/web/offreported/02-nforc iblerape04.html

34% of all people arrested for forcible rape are black.  Blacks represent only 12.5% of the population.

[quote=menotellname]
  Especially those that rape 5 month olds.  Check the stats.
[/quote]
See above.
[quote=menotellname]

I am sure that the posts about Africa mean something to you.  Should I post something about the poor white trash that dominates the welfare payrolls here...
[/quote]
Go ahead.  Please do.

And how many of them have rap sheets?
[quote=menotellname]

Obviously you have never been in adverse conditions and resorted to extreme measures. 

[/quote]
Extreme measures?  Are you insane?  I can completely understand looting of food and water.  There is no excuse for rape, murder, shootings, etc.  No excuse at all.

These aren't extreme measures.  This is how these people behave without a strong police presence to keep them in check.
[quote=menotellname]

Firing a bullet in the air when a plane is near is no different than firing a flare in the air when a plane is near. 

[/quote]
Yes, it is much different.  First off, those bullets aren't tracers--which are hard to see during the day, anyway.  Second, I wouldn't expect someone to see a muzzle flash if they weren't looking for one.

Why can't they use flashlights?

I know, I know, you're just making stuff up.  I hope you're a better investment advisor than you are a liar. 
[quote=menotellname]

Both are meant as signals but also pose and eminent threat to the plane itself.
[/quote]
I know that you don't actually believe this stuff.

What about the rapes in New Orleans?  Is that to send a signal, too?
[quote=menotellname]

By your nature you have proven yourself incapable of meaningful debate.[/quote]

This coming from a man who makes up ludicrous excuses for socio-pathic behavior.

Ah, perhaps I'm venting.  But this is disgusting.  It really is.  During a time where everyone should pitch in and help, we have an entire ethnic group whining and complaining, committing crime, and trying to murder helpers.

Sickening.

One more thing before I begin my holiday weekend:

It is estimated that 1 out of every 3 black males will serve time in state or federal prison.  That doesn't include probation or county jail time.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm

Have a nice weekend.

[/quote]

You are using faulty math.  Because a population base makes up 12% of the population and 34% of those arrested for a specific crime DOES NOT make them 3 times more likely to commit the crime.  That just means that they are arrested at 3 times their demographic representation.  THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY ARE 3 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO COMMIT THE CRIME.  Your less than rudimentary level of mathematics knowledge is astounding.  Further, you still didn't refute that most rapists are white males (as I stated previously).

Most urban welfare recipients are minorities.  However, most welfare recipients are white.  (check the stats)

As far as bullets...tracers are neither here nor there.  The fact of the matter is that it IS NOT hard to shoot a hovering helicopter during the day.  If they were aiming for the helipcopters they would have hit them.

Any questions?

Sep 2, 2005 6:57 pm

Are you insane Meno?  How can you make excusses for these animals?  I don't care what colar they are, they are the cockroaches of society.  They blame the world for their problems.  Uneducated?  Whos fault is that?  Theirs.  Poor-whos falt is that.  Theirs. 

I remember about 18 years ago when I owned a business in Chicago.  I ran out of a particular supply and had to make an early morning run to the very worse and most dangerous part of town to do a pick up.  At a stop light I sat keeping my head low and doors locked when a herd of kids crossed the street on the way to school.  They were all complete thugs and gangbangers.  The scariest bunch of kids I ever saw.  Not a one had a book. 

Then behind this group about 50 feet back walked a little asian kid.  All by himself, neatly dressed.  But what stood out most was the giant stack of books he was lugging. He was the only one out of about 20 who had a book.  I often wonder what happend to that little kid.  Here he was in the worst area of Chicago but his parents I am sure realized the value of an education.  I bet today he is a successful professional while the rest of those kids, now adults or more likely inmates, are complaining how society let them down.  THey are representitive of these idiots in New Orleans who are now looting and killing. 

Dredges of society.  I hope the army takes some of them out.  I hear a heavly armed convoy is making its way to the dome.  Hopefully they have been given the go-ahead to shoot when needed.

Sep 2, 2005 7:00 pm

Hopefully the next time someone “signals” to a helicopter by shooting at it someone whill “signal” back with a good-ol M16.  That’s what is needed.

Sep 2, 2005 8:17 pm

[quote=Malcolm]Hopefully the next time someone “signals” to a
helicopter by shooting at it someone whill “signal” back with a good-ol
M16.  That’s what is needed.[/quote]



Remember the good old days when you’d challenge someone to a fist fight if you didn’t like them?



We weren’t cowards like those cowards shooting everything that moves with guns.  We were willing to put ourselves at risk.



…Those were the days…

Sep 2, 2005 8:36 pm

Last word:



I want to apologize if I offended anyone.  I didn’t mean to. 
I’ve said everything I can say about this and, quite frankly, seeing
continuing news coverage of the disgusting behavior in New Orleans is
turning my stomach. 



It’s unbelievable how cruel and heartless some people can be.

Sep 2, 2005 8:53 pm

Gee whiz, inquisitive, why such hatred for our black brothers?  Did your wife leave you for one?  I grew up in the South.  We lost the war, so lose the attitude.  Be cool my brother.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" -Martin Luther King 

Sep 2, 2005 9:35 pm

Just got back from a few days off.  Spent much of the time in Reno glued to the news.  Like watching a fascinating train wreck. You know it's coming. You know it is going to be terrible and you still can't stop looking.

About the people who remained in the city.  Many of them are the poorest of the poor who had no way to leave even if they wanted to. I feel for them and the innocent children. The City officials should have made some effort to help them evacuate. Those that refused to evacuate should just STFU.  Unfortunately some of them are also the criminals, slackers and leeches that suck the life out of the rest of society.  I do NOT feel for them. It is welfare mentality that has created this problem.  The idea that you are "owed" by society and that what you are given is not good enough and you demand more.  I am struck dumb by the woman who was whining that she had nothing to eat for days and no water, yet when given a MRE (the same food that our troops in combat eat) threw it away because it wasn't hot and was not tasty enough for her discriminating (welfare) standards.  Come on.  Puuuleeese.  I am supposed to feel sorry for bitches and leeches like that??  I hope she drowns.

As we know in our business, 80% of our revenue is generated by 20% of our book.  I appears to me, in a reverse sense, that the 20% of New Orleans that remained in the city represents the 20% of society that is not generating anything useful and is a basic drag on society.

I know this sounds really cold, but I am a realist.  I compared it to cleaning the refrigerator.   During the cleaning process you have to throw out the scummy vegetables that have hidden in the back of the drawer, the half used jar of salsa that has green slime on top, and remove the apples that have started to go bad while saving the good apples.  When you are done the fridge is clean, organized and healthy.  I am NOT advocating that we as a society purposly clense our "refrigerator" (so to speak).  I am merely observing this seems to be a process that is occuring now in this disaster. And yes, it is cold, but it might be a good thing in the long run.

Flame away

Sep 2, 2005 10:09 pm

[quote=babbling looney]

Just got back from a few days off.  Spent much of the time in Reno glued to the news.  Like watching a fascinating train wreck. You know it's coming. You know it is going to be terrible and you still can't stop looking.

About the people who remained in the city.  Many of them are the poorest of the poor who had no way to leave even if they wanted to. I feel for them and the innocent children. The City officials should have made some effort to help them evacuate. Those that refused to evacuate should just STFU.  Unfortunately some of them are also the criminals, slackers and leeches that suck the life out of the rest of society.  I do NOT feel for them. It is welfare mentality that has created this problem.  The idea that you are "owed" by society and that what you are given is not good enough and you demand more.  I am struck dumb by the woman who was whining that she had nothing to eat for days and no water, yet when given a MRE (the same food that our troops in combat eat) threw it away because it wasn't hot and was not tasty enough for her discriminating (welfare) standards.  Come on.  Puuuleeese.  I am supposed to feel sorry for bitches and leeches like that??  I hope she drowns.

As we know in our business, 80% of our revenue is generated by 20% of our book.  I appears to me, in a reverse sense, that the 20% of New Orleans that remained in the city represents the 20% of society that is not generating anything useful and is a basic drag on society.

I know this sounds really cold, but I am a realist.  I compared it to cleaning the refrigerator.   During the cleaning process you have to throw out the scummy vegetables that have hidden in the back of the drawer, the half used jar of salsa that has green slime on top, and remove the apples that have started to go bad while saving the good apples.  When you are done the fridge is clean, organized and healthy.  I am NOT advocating that we as a society purposly clense our "refrigerator" (so to speak).  I am merely observing this seems to be a process that is occuring now in this disaster. And yes, it is cold, but it might be a good thing in the long run.

Flame away

What you describe sounds like ethnic cleansing or even worse genocide.
Sep 2, 2005 10:20 pm

Except it is Mother Nature doing the scrub work.

Sep 2, 2005 10:37 pm

Always Amazed at Some people,when Members of Race Are responsible for such Idiotic Behavior,that their Defenders complain about it Being a Race Thing !

As for the GoofBall that thinks Other Races act in Similar fasion ?

if you're Speaking of La Raza in Calif, you May be Right !

If you're Speaking of the Cubans in Miami, you May be Right !

but i Remember Being in the Huricanes of Florida and i Believe,

that We didn't shoot at Our Resuers !  NUFF Said !

Wishing you All the Best:  but Lord Save us From OurSelves !

SanteeClause

Sep 2, 2005 11:51 pm

Regardless of economic means (or the lack thereof), no one should have remained in the New Orleans area during Katrina. Even accepting the fact that there were people who could not afford to leave is not an excuse. So, how could they have been evacuated?

I would venture to guess that there are several hundred school and church buses in the New Orleans area. Why didn't the responsible officials employ these buses as a way to shuttle people out of harm's way? Why wasn't there a plan incorporating these emergency measures?

Sep 3, 2005 12:40 am

Why wasn't there a plan incorporating these emergency measures?

I agree completely.  There should have been a plan in place to move the indigent, poor and those without the means to get out of town. It isn't a surprise that a hurricane can hit New Orleans, or the rest of the Gulf Coast.  It was not a secret that New Orleans is under sea level and protected by inadequate levees. They had plenty of warning  that THIS storm was approaching and was a serious threat.  A lack of any coordinated contingency plan is to blame for the majority of this mess.  I would hope that city governments around the US are taking a lesson from this and begin contingency planning NOW.  I expect that they won't and the next disaster, terrorist attack, pandemic, dirty bomb will catch them with their pants down again.

Never the less, there still would be people who for whatever reason refused to leave.  Those people need to bear the consequences of their own actions.  There is a famous mountain near my location that people will come from around the world to climb.  A stupid passtime in my opinion. But when they get trapped in a snow storm, or break a leg, they expect that other people will put themselves in harms way to rescue their stupid asses. At taxpayer expense I might add. 

The government can only, and should only be responsible for certain things.  People need to take resposibility for their own actions.  I have little sympathy for those who could have escape and didn't.  And as I said before I have great sympathy for those who were helplessly trapped.

Sep 3, 2005 3:09 pm

So sad, so many lives affected or lost... must be nice to be able to sit back, criticize, belittle and point fingers from inside one’s nice, dry, cushy home. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Sep 3, 2005 5:32 pm

Yes, I'm sitting in my dry cushy home that my hard-earned money purchased.  If I later decide that I don't want to work anymore before I'm done paying for it, odds are, I'll be living in a shelter also.  Leaving color aside, I too, do not have much use for those that whine and complain and wait for a handout when they are capable of making a better life for themselves.

Most of this, in my opinion, is the result of poor role models, or the absence of role models these folks had when they grew up.  Dad slaps mom around, son thinks that's the way it's done.  Dad impregnates mom and then disappears, son grows up thinking that love 'em and leave 'em is normal.  Mom doesn't want to get a job because she'd lose her welfare benefits, guess what her daughter's first though is when it's time to fly the nest?  Right!  Have a baby...get on welfare!  Kids don't study in school because no one at home graduated and no one encourages studying and hard work.

I don't buy the genetics theory at all.  If a young black child has hard-working and successful parentS, they are much more likely to succeed because of their role models.  If dad is in jail and mom is on welfare, it doesn't matter what your color or race is, if you aren't the strong self-motivated type, which most of us are not at that age, you've got a hard road ahead.  That doesn't mean that you don't know right from wrong at a fairly early age, and it doesn't make you commit crimes, but it sure makes it seem more normal.

I too, am disgusted by much of what I see in New Orleans, but I'm not disgusted because most are black...I am disgusted because (1) some are taking advantage of a bad situation and (2) many continue to whine and complain even when their basic needs are met.  Wake up people...it's going to be awhile before the Hilton is back in operation...and if you didn't live there before the hurricane, you ain't gonna live there afterwards either!

The shame of this all is that we are seeing the actions of a decided minority.  Most folks in New Orleans took the simple advice given and left.  Many stayed because they couldn't leave.  These two groups are the true victims.  Some stayed because they decided to stay.  I'll give some sympathy here, particularly those business owners who stayed to try and prevent the looting.  A few stayed because they were looking forward to the inevitable looting and lawlessness opportunity.  For these, I have less than zero sympathy.

That's my soapbox session for the weekend.  I have been donating and will continue to donate cash and goods to the cause.  We need to remember that those we see in front of the camera doing stupid things and acting like ingrates are truly in the minority.  Most victims deserve our help and prayers...

Sep 3, 2005 8:29 pm

For charity to be successful and have its positive effects continue to impact the recipient's life, there must be a mutual agreement: The recipient must supply the motivation to improve a given situation and the charity must supply the means to achieve it.

Simply put: If you want me to help you get on your feet, you must first get off your a** 

Sep 4, 2005 4:11 am

[quote=Malcolm]

Are you insane Meno?  How can you make excusses for these animals?  I don't care what colar they are, they are the cockroaches of society.  They blame the world for their problems.  Uneducated?  Whos fault is that?  Theirs.  Poor-whos falt is that.  Theirs. 

I remember about 18 years ago when I owned a business in Chicago.  I ran out of a particular supply and had to make an early morning run to the very worse and most dangerous part of town to do a pick up.  At a stop light I sat keeping my head low and doors locked when a herd of kids crossed the street on the way to school.  They were all complete thugs and gangbangers.  The scariest bunch of kids I ever saw.  Not a one had a book. 

Then behind this group about 50 feet back walked a little asian kid.  All by himself, neatly dressed.  But what stood out most was the giant stack of books he was lugging. He was the only one out of about 20 who had a book.  I often wonder what happend to that little kid.  Here he was in the worst area of Chicago but his parents I am sure realized the value of an education.  I bet today he is a successful professional while the rest of those kids, now adults or more likely inmates, are complaining how society let them down.  THey are representitive of these idiots in New Orleans who are now looting and killing. 

Dredges of society.  I hope the army takes some of them out.  I hear a heavly armed convoy is making its way to the dome.  Hopefully they have been given the go-ahead to shoot when needed.

[/quote]

No.  I am not insane.  I am a genius.  I think on a much higher level than you or inquisitive could ever possibly comprehend.  Please read this book and educate yourself:  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684818868/qid =1125806987/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0899413-5203957?v=glance &s=books&n=507846

Sep 4, 2005 4:12 am

[quote=babbling looney]

Just got back from a few days off.  Spent much of the time in Reno glued to the news.  Like watching a fascinating train wreck. You know it's coming. You know it is going to be terrible and you still can't stop looking.

About the people who remained in the city.  Many of them are the poorest of the poor who had no way to leave even if they wanted to. I feel for them and the innocent children. The City officials should have made some effort to help them evacuate. Those that refused to evacuate should just STFU.  Unfortunately some of them are also the criminals, slackers and leeches that suck the life out of the rest of society.  I do NOT feel for them. It is welfare mentality that has created this problem.  The idea that you are "owed" by society and that what you are given is not good enough and you demand more.  I am struck dumb by the woman who was whining that she had nothing to eat for days and no water, yet when given a MRE (the same food that our troops in combat eat) threw it away because it wasn't hot and was not tasty enough for her discriminating (welfare) standards.  Come on.  Puuuleeese.  I am supposed to feel sorry for bitches and leeches like that??  I hope she drowns.

As we know in our business, 80% of our revenue is generated by 20% of our book.  I appears to me, in a reverse sense, that the 20% of New Orleans that remained in the city represents the 20% of society that is not generating anything useful and is a basic drag on society.

I know this sounds really cold, but I am a realist.  I compared it to cleaning the refrigerator.   During the cleaning process you have to throw out the scummy vegetables that have hidden in the back of the drawer, the half used jar of salsa that has green slime on top, and remove the apples that have started to go bad while saving the good apples.  When you are done the fridge is clean, organized and healthy.  I am NOT advocating that we as a society purposly clense our "refrigerator" (so to speak).  I am merely observing this seems to be a process that is occuring now in this disaster. And yes, it is cold, but it might be a good thing in the long run.

Flame away

[/quote]

It seems to me that you should read the same book that I suggested for Malcolm.  Perhaps you could borrow his edition when he gets done.

Sep 4, 2005 4:13 am

[quote=doberman]

Regardless of economic means (or the lack thereof), no one should have remained in the New Orleans area during Katrina. Even accepting the fact that there were people who could not afford to leave is not an excuse. So, how could they have been evacuated?

I would venture to guess that there are several hundred school and church buses in the New Orleans area. Why didn't the responsible officials employ these buses as a way to shuttle people out of harm's way? Why wasn't there a plan incorporating these emergency measures?

[/quote]

Read the book.

Sep 4, 2005 5:35 am

INDYONE

well Put!  I enjoyed your post!

Should New Orleans be rebuilt?  By rebuilding are we just waiting for this to happen again? 

I just wondered what everyone thinks about this. 

Sep 4, 2005 2:33 pm

Parts of New Orleans should not ne rebuilt, but they will rebuild it.

Many of these people will not have insurance coverage for flood damage, so the money will have to come from the gov.  Sad.

Sep 4, 2005 2:45 pm

Menotellname, if all history books lie, why should anyone believe this one?

Sep 4, 2005 3:44 pm

[quote=Starka]Menotellname, if all history books lie, why should anyone believe this one?[/quote]

Starka,

Why don't you at least attempt or feign understanding before you ask a question?

It makes perferct since to ask a question if you don't understand the lesson.  Of course, first you must sit through the lesson and then ask questions AFTERWARDS if you still do not understand.

Simply put...read the book.

Sep 4, 2005 3:47 pm

If you can’t answer the question, just say so. 

Sep 4, 2005 5:13 pm

It seems to me that you should read the same book that I suggested for Malcolm.  Perhaps you could borrow his edition when he gets done.

I will if you will read these.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451191145/qid =1125853615/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-6900558-8775967?v=glance &s=books&n=507846

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451163931/qid =1125853784/sr=8-4/ref=pd_bbs_4/104-6900558-8775967?v=glance &s=books&n=507846

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0156334607/qid =1125853890/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-6900558-8775967?v=glance &s=books&n=507846

BTW: what in my post do you take exeption to and where do you think I am wrong?

Sep 4, 2005 7:34 pm

This board is hilarious.  You have Stanka going blah, blah, blah, then here comes inqueeritive going blah, blah, blah, and then to top it off Executivejockstrap going blah, blah, blah.  Three middle-aged angry white men going off.  We are all in the financial services industry making alot more than your average blue collar worker.  But nooooo, thats not good enough.  You have to pick on an ENTIRE race who has been oppressed in this country for hundreds of years.  The people black or white in LA don’t need your criticism.  Thats why I bought life insurance, disability insurance, medical insurance, because we are all one lawsuit, one car accident, one illness, or one job loss away from being one of those people.  Life is good so count your f*cking blessings and shut up.

Sep 4, 2005 7:44 pm

The people black or white in LA don't need your criticism

I feel sorry for them being caught in a huge natural disaster and a catastrophe greatly of their own making too.  So no they don't "need" my criticism but they sure as hell seem to "demand" my money in the way of taxpayer funded subsidies.  I voluntarily donate to charities that are helping the evacuees because they need the help and they need it now. What I resent is the entitlement attitude that "demands".

They may not need our criticism, but they should pay some attention to the criticism and suggestions so they won't be in this predicament again.

Sep 4, 2005 8:16 pm

[quote=VotedforKerry]This board is hilarious.  You have Stanka going blah, blah, blah, then here comes inqueeritive going blah, blah, blah, and then to top it off Executivejockstrap going blah, blah, blah.  Three middle-aged angry white men going off.  We are all in the financial services industry making alot more than your average blue collar worker.  But nooooo, thats not good enough.  You have to pick on an ENTIRE race who has been oppressed in this country for hundreds of years.  The people black or white in LA don't need your criticism.  Thats why I bought life insurance, disability insurance, medical insurance, because we are all one lawsuit, one car accident, one illness, or one job loss away from being one of those people.  Life is good so count your f*cking blessings and shut up.[/quote]

So what are you saying?  That the animals that are looting, raping, killing, etc. should be commended and rewarded for their actions because they didn't leave when told to do so, and got flooded out????

No wonder you voted for Kerry. 

Sep 4, 2005 9:22 pm

Well said,  STARKA…

Sep 5, 2005 12:50 am

hmmm is this the let them eat cake thing?

Sep 5, 2005 12:59 am

[quote=BabyFat]

hmmm is this the let them eat cake thing?

[/quote]

Certainly not!  I, for one, feel that more could have been done sooner to ameliorate the magnitude of the suffering, and alleviate it in the wake of the disaster.  Just one example, why wasn't the Louisiana State militia mobilized before the storm hit to evacuate those who couldn't get out on their own, and ditto for the relief efforts afterward?

What I object to the efforts by some, here and elsewhere, to crown the inevitable scum that appear in the wake of a disaster with some kind of nobility.  These 'people' (and I use the term loosely) were scum before, during and after the storm. 

Sep 5, 2005 1:42 am

Hey pal you have the wrong upper middle class white man here. I served my country for 11 of my 28 years at the federal and community levels. My income is far from what I would consider a wealthy white man.

I also have a super diverse base of friends from professional dominican athletes, black associates, southers bells to hispanic and mexican employees. To say that I am iggnorant of immigration or minority issues is pathetic. On top of my diverse experience with people from all over the world I have worked side by side with illegal immigrants and numerous members of my family are first generation Americans.

So my point is I am integrity driven and focused on the truth, not the bs that we hear from our liberal media. It amazes me how 50% of America thinks of the media as the the bottom line truth. It is complete BS. They focus on the worse of America. If someone dies in an accident or a fire its the main story. If a troop dies in Iraq they never show a story that he was a hero or about the 3400 new schools in IRAQ.

Talking about issues on these threads really makes me research and stay on top of there issues. So thank you, but realize most of what I say is based on my eperiences.

Sep 5, 2005 1:54 am

I had one question for my friends at work...

If you were poor, pisted off, hungry, thirsty and in New Orleans what would you rob first?

Answer: Packie. Get a ton of alcohol.

Now when people get drunk or coming off of drugs they are problems. Yesterday our troops and the police killed 8 of the animals. I hope they get some rape kits for these women the punish these animals to the full extent of the law.

This was not a race issue until the black leaders started talking about it. General Horne said it best. No one knew what would happen on Tuesday and it takes time for troops to get to the area. Also the mayor did a great job, but after being up for 60 hours he was stressed out, so he vented!

Sep 5, 2005 4:44 am

Stanka, Stanka, Stanka, oh clueless one.  I hate to break it to you but there is murder, rape, and theft in every major city in America, New Orleans is no exception.  That's why there are court systems and hopefully justice will be served.  It seems you take the crime there personally, for whatever reason.  As for why I voted for Kerry.....if you can find a Republican candidate who is pro choice, pro stemcell research, pro peace, pro environment, not an imbecile, and not named Bush that person will gladly have my vote. 

Sep 5, 2005 1:01 pm

if you can find a Republican candidate who is pro choice, pro stemcell research, pro peace, pro environment, not an imbecile, and not named Bush that person will gladly have my vote.

Well then, I guess I have your vote!! Maybe I should run for President.

Talk about imbeciles. This is just the same happy horses**t that you "Kerry voters" seem to be good at.  Stereotyping people and trying to pigeon hole everything. Are you so narrow minded that you can't conceive that "gasp" Republicans are not all clones that fit your little world view? You forgot to throw in something derogatory about religion and bible thumping born again yada yada yada.  Talk about predjudice!  I am beginning to believe that the so called liberal party is the party of intolerance and repression. Why don't you get a mind of your own instead of parroting the "Party Line".

You aren't worth the pixels that I am putting on this screen.

Sep 5, 2005 2:20 pm

who is pro choice, pro stemcell research, pro peace, pro environment, not an imbecile, and not named Bush that person will gladly have my vote. 

Hey Kerry.. The crazy thing is I am totally open to pro stemcell, pro peace, pro environment and pro choice. On top of that I am open to gay rights.

As for the pro choice what has changed? You cant kill a last term embrio or what ever you want to call it.

Enviorment: The largest environmental bill in the last 20 years was passed early this year. On top of that car mileage is giong from 20 to 26 by 2010. Clintons promise in 1992 was an increase and at the end of his term it decreased. God bless slick willie!!

PRO PEACE. The military is about 4-1 for the war against terrorism, but there is no population in our country that is more pro peace. No one wants war, but some times 1944 and 2003 you have to do what you have to do.

Stem cell: Its a political wildcard. Who says you can not do this research overseas? Also there is new studies that say the skin cells do the same as stem cell. On top of that there is no one scratch of evidence that 100 trillion dollars and all the embrio cells in the world could make an instant difference.

Kerry did you vote for GORE? I ask because when Bush won the lines were drawn. This population did not even give this president a chance. They loved Michael Moore (anti american), Sheehan, Kennedy and Pelousi's. These people never ever have an idea of how to get from here to there. They are obstructors who produce nothing but insults.

Sep 5, 2005 2:45 pm

[quote=VotedforKerry]

Stanka, Stanka, Stanka, oh clueless one.  I hate to break it to you but there is murder, rape, and theft in every major city in America, New Orleans is no exception.  That's why there are court systems and hopefully justice will be served.  It seems you take the crime there personally, for whatever reason.  As for why I voted for Kerry.....if you can find a Republican candidate who is pro choice, pro stemcell research, pro peace, pro environment, not an imbecile, and not named Bush that person will gladly have my vote. 

[/quote]

Tell me about the widespread looting that happened in the wake of 9/11.  Tell about victims shooting at rescuers after the hurricane hit Charleston, SC.  Tell me about the rapes that happened after Andrew hit Homestead, Fl.

Further, you seem to be suggesting that these nefarious crimes would have happened in New Orleans even if the storm didn't hit.  "I hate to break it to you but there is murder, rape, and theft in every major city in America, New Orleans is no exception."  Your statement, idiotic and misguided as it is.  And yes, you bet I take it personally when innocents are harmed by violent crime.

VFK, if your reasoning and powers of logic are no better than this, you should get out of the discussion now.  (You shouldn't vote either, but that's another topic.)

Sep 5, 2005 2:59 pm

Oh my Stanka, so much anger in the morning.  Does someone need a hug?  As for Charleston and Homestead, hmmmmm…comparing those two cities to a major metropolitan city such as New Orleans…let me think about that one.  Charleston, a sleepy little Southern town and Homestead, a little pit stop on the way to the Keys, yes you are right Stanka, there is absolutely no excuse for what THOSE people in New Orleans.  Logic has it that those three cities are comparable in every way and that there should have only be 3.4 murders, 2.4 rapes, and 6.2 acts of theft.  Yes, you are absolutely right, New Orleans is way above their quota.  Happy now. I was wrong you were right. Peace my brother.

Sep 5, 2005 3:04 pm

Anger?  Because of you?  Hardly.

Clearly, you've never been to Charleston, nor have you ever looked at a map of southern Florida.  For some reason you believe that Andrew hit Homestead and miraculously missed Miami.  (Oddly, you didn't even mention New York.)

I've gotta hand it to ya, VFK.  You're an idiot, but you go down swinging!

Sep 5, 2005 3:54 pm

Now you've done it I had to go look up the word idiot in the dictionary, since I've never been referred to as such. 

According to Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Main Entry: id-i-ot  Pronunciation 'i-dE-it Function: Noun Etymology Middle English, from Anglo French Starke Latin Starkiota ignorant person, from Greek Starkites one in a private station, layman, ignorant person

1 usually offensive: a person affected with idiocy  2 a foolish or stupid person

Now I am offended, to think, I thought we could be friends.  Calling me a Starka.  You have deeply hurt me. 

Sep 5, 2005 5:29 pm

Try to imagine how much that hurt coming from you.

Sep 6, 2005 1:52 am

Santeeclaus

please stop posting.  You take up way to much space and say nothing useful!

Sep 6, 2005 2:08 am

Yikes, Santa please don’t stop by this Christmas. 

Sep 6, 2005 2:24 am

VFK, this is probably the only thing you and I will ever agree on.

Sep 6, 2005 2:24 am

DIVIDED! IDIOT

do you not realize that blacks have a right to vote!  man your an idiot!

Sep 6, 2005 3:13 am

No more politics for me. In all reality we all have the opportunity to vote, but for the most part the government operates without our input.

So if anyone sees me write a political posting tell me to be quite!

Cheers to our success and screw the politics!

Sep 6, 2005 12:48 pm

[quote=menotellname]

No.  I am not insane.  I am a genius.  I think on a much higher level than you or inquisitive could ever possibly comprehend.  Please read this book and educate yourself:  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684818868/qid =1125806987/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0899413-5203957?v=glance &s=books&n=507846[/quote]

Hardly. If you're reading and recommending this kind of paranoid conspiracy book you're no genius.

Sep 6, 2005 12:51 pm

[quote=Starka]

[quote=VotedforKerry]This board is hilarious.  You have Stanka going blah, blah, blah, then here comes inqueeritive going blah, blah, blah, and then to top it off Executivejockstrap going blah, blah, blah.  Three middle-aged angry white men going off.  We are all in the financial services industry making alot more than your average blue collar worker.  But nooooo, thats not good enough.  You have to pick on an ENTIRE race who has been oppressed in this country for hundreds of years.  The people black or white in LA don't need your criticism.  Thats why I bought life insurance, disability insurance, medical insurance, because we are all one lawsuit, one car accident, one illness, or one job loss away from being one of those people.  Life is good so count your f*cking blessings and shut up.[/quote]

So what are you saying?  That the animals that are looting, raping, killing, etc. should be commended and rewarded for their actions because they didn't leave when told to do so, and got flooded out????

No wonder you voted for Kerry. 

[/quote]

Animals?  Why "yes" all human beings are animals.  Commended and rewarded?  No.  Unfortunately you fail to understand the entire situation.  That is the problem with "white" America.

You know..."some people are born on third base and spend the rest of their lives thinking they hit a triple".

You lack perspective. 

Sep 6, 2005 12:53 pm

[quote=]menotellname

You lack perspective. 

[/quote]

This from the guy that tried to make the argument that the snipers in N.O. were simply trying to "signal" relief workers.

Sep 6, 2005 12:56 pm

[quote=Sniper]

[quote=menotellname]

No.  I am not insane.  I am a genius.  I think on a much higher level than you or inquisitive could ever possibly comprehend.  Please read this book and educate yourself:  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684818868/qid =1125806987/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0899413-5203957?v=glance &s=books&n=507846[/quote]

Hardly. If you're reading and recommending this kind of paranoid conspiracy book you're no genius.

[/quote]

Obviously you DID NOT READ THE BOOK.

Perhaps you would be better served if you didn't complain about shootings while having the moniker of "sniper".  Seems like you are an oxymoron (emphasis on the moron).

Sep 6, 2005 12:59 pm

[quote=Sniper]

[quote=]menotellname

You lack perspective. 

[/quote]

This from the guy that tried to make the argument that the snipers in N.O. were simply trying to "signal" relief workers.

[/quote]

Well...as a "sniper"...you would know how easy it is to shoot something or someone.  Especially if it is as large as a helicopter.

Let me ask you this...with all of the shooting going on...how many rescuers have been shot?  None.

However, guardsmen protecting workers shot and killed several gunmen over the weekend.

You would think that if there is as much shooting as you claim and that these shooters are shooting AT rescuers that several rescuers would have been killed.  Unfortunately, for you, the facts fly in the face of your "logic".

Sep 6, 2005 1:13 pm

[quote=menotellname][quote=Sniper]

[quote=menotellname]

No.  I am not insane.  I am a genius.  I think on a much higher level than you or inquisitive could ever possibly comprehend.  Please read this book and educate yourself:  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684818868/qid =1125806987/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0899413-5203957?v=glance &s=books&n=507846[/quote]

Hardly. If you're reading and recommending this kind of paranoid conspiracy book you're no genius.

[/quote]

Obviously you DID NOT READ THE BOOK.

[/quote]

I feel no need to waste life's precious time reading garbage that says things like "Perhaps we are all dupes, manipulated by elite white male capitalists who orchestrate how history is written as part of their scheme to perpetuate their own power and privilege at the expense of the rest of us.".

Also, I won't be wasting time reading books that say we faked the moon landings or books that claim JFK was killed by Martians. I will, however, continue to laugh at people who make statements like you do, saying that snipers in N.O. were just trying to signal relief workers.

BTW, I had the screen name long before thugs decided to fire on people trying to save them.

Sep 6, 2005 1:17 pm

[quote=menotellname]

Well...as a "sniper"...you would know how easy it is to shoot something or someone.  Especially if it is as large as a helicopter.

Let me ask you this...with all of the shooting going on...how many rescuers have been shot?  None.

[/quote]

No one said they were good marksmen, just that they TRIED to hit people attempting to save their lives.

What you're REALLY saying is that the pilots and people in boats how claim there were people shooting at them are liars.

[quote=menotellname]

However, guardsmen protecting workers shot and killed several gunmen over the weekend.

[/quote]

And why do you think the guardsmen fired? Because the GUNMEN (notice that word, GUNmen?) SHOT AT RELIEF WORKRS FIRST.

Sep 6, 2005 1:22 pm

[quote=menotellname]

That is the problem with "white" America.

[/quote]

The "problem" is pointing out acts of lawlessness, folks. The "problem" is in not understanding that gunmen were just trying to signal the relief workers. The "problem" is in not bothering to read paranoid conspiracy garbage books.

Seriously, the "problem" is black racists and white racists getting in the way of rational people all getting along as we otherwise would without them.

Sep 6, 2005 1:23 pm

[quote=Sniper][quote=menotellname]

Well...as a "sniper"...you would know how easy it is to shoot something or someone.  Especially if it is as large as a helicopter.

Let me ask you this...with all of the shooting going on...how many rescuers have been shot?  None.

[/quote]

No one said they were good marksmen, just that they TRIED to hit people attempting to save their lives.

What you're REALLY saying is that the pilots and people in boats how claim there were people shooting at them are liars.

[quote=menotellname]

However, guardsmen protecting workers shot and killed several gunmen over the weekend.

[/quote]

And why do you think the guardsmen fired? Because the GUNMEN (notice that word, GUNmen?) SHOT AT RELIEF WORKRS FIRST.

[/quote]

Everybody thinks that somebody is shooting AT them when they hear and/or see bullets.  Rarely is that the case.

Yes, I am calling the pilots and people in boats liars.  They lack perspective.

Unless or until one of them gets shot...nobody was shooting AT them.  Near them...yes.

You don't have to be a good marksman to shoot something that is lumbering slowly towards you.  That being said...a 5 year old would have shot at least one of the rescuers if he was shooting AT them.

Sep 6, 2005 1:25 pm

[quote=Sniper]

[quote=menotellname]

That is the problem with "white" America.

[/quote]

The "problem" is pointing out acts of lawlessness, folks. The "problem" is in not understanding that gunmen were just trying to signal the relief workers. The "problem" is in not bothering to read paranoid conspiracy garbage books.

Seriously, the "problem" is black racists and white racists getting in the way of rational people all getting along as we otherwise would without them.

[/quote]

Racists ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

Ignorance of the situation and/or the root cause is the problem.  Unfortunately most of those that are ignorant of the situation and/or root cause are deemed racist because their beliefs are skewed due to lack of education about the actual cause of the problem.

That, my ignorant friend, is why you should read the book. 

Sep 6, 2005 1:25 pm

[quote=menotellname]

Yes, I am calling the pilots and people in boats liars.  They lack perspective.

[/quote]

I don't think I've ever been in the presence of such overpowering ego and ignorance before in my entire life. You really are a piece of work.

And the GUNmen the guardsmen shot, they were just signalling the people trying to help them?

Sep 6, 2005 1:27 pm

[quote=Sniper][quote=menotellname][quote=Sniper]

[quote=menotellname]

No.  I am not insane.  I am a genius.  I think on a much higher level than you or inquisitive could ever possibly comprehend.  Please read this book and educate yourself:  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684818868/qid =1125806987/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0899413-5203957?v=glance &s=books&n=507846[/quote]

Hardly. If you're reading and recommending this kind of paranoid conspiracy book you're no genius.

[/quote]

Obviously you DID NOT READ THE BOOK.

[/quote]

I feel no need to waste life's precious time reading garbage that says things like "Perhaps we are all dupes, manipulated by elite white male capitalists who orchestrate how history is written as part of their scheme to perpetuate their own power and privilege at the expense of the rest of us.".

Also, I won't be wasting time reading books that say we faked the moon landings or books that claim JFK was killed by Martians. I will, however, continue to laugh at people who make statements like you do, saying that snipers in N.O. were just trying to signal relief workers.

BTW, I had the screen name long before thugs decided to fire on people trying to save them.

[/quote]

The book doesn't mention Martians.  Nor does it state that moon landings were faked.

Who is the paranoid person now?

Looks like you!!!

Sep 6, 2005 1:28 pm

"That, my ignorant friend, is why you should read the book. "

You're the mirror image of the Klansman who wants me to read HIS favorite book filled with "facts" about how Jews run the world behind the scenes and how blacks are barely above rabid dogs in their behavior.

Sep 6, 2005 3:10 pm

[quote=Sniper]

"That, my ignorant friend, is why you should read the book. "

You're the mirror image of the Klansman who wants me to read HIS favorite book filled with "facts" about how Jews run the world behind the scenes and how blacks are barely above rabid dogs in their behavior.

[/quote]

You obviously don't know what is detailed in the book if you haven't read the book.

You must be a charter member of the Flat Earth Society.

Sep 6, 2005 3:40 pm

[quote=menotellname][quote=Sniper]

"That, my ignorant friend, is why you should read the book. "

You're the mirror image of the Klansman who wants me to read HIS favorite book filled with "facts" about how Jews run the world behind the scenes and how blacks are barely above rabid dogs in their behavior.

[/quote]

You obviously don't know what is detailed in the book if you haven't read the book.

You must be a charter member of the Flat Earth Society.

[/quote]

I've read enough of the book to know it's paranoid conspiracy nonsense. The beauty of the information age is that you don't have to read something cover to cover, you can read reviews and discussions of any book online and understand where the author's perspective lies. Life's too short to spend it reading rants like; "Perhaps we are all dupes, manipulated by elite white male capitalists who orchestrate how history is written as part of their scheme to perpetuate their own power and privilege at the expense of the rest of us.".

In fact, the only thing that might be a bigger waste of time than reading page to page that propaganda would be conversing with someone who calls every relief worker who claims to have been shot at a liar. Or that would be the case if that conversation didn't serve the combined purposes of comic relief and a reminder or how far from reality some people chose to live.

The fact is you're nothing but a black bigot, no better than some of the white bigots we've seen here. The less we hear from you two sides of the same coin types, the better off we'll all be.

Sep 6, 2005 5:32 pm

[quote=Sniper][quote=menotellname][quote=Sniper]

"That, my ignorant friend, is why you should read the book. "

You're the mirror image of the Klansman who wants me to read HIS favorite book filled with "facts" about how Jews run the world behind the scenes and how blacks are barely above rabid dogs in their behavior.

[/quote]

You obviously don't know what is detailed in the book if you haven't read the book.

You must be a charter member of the Flat Earth Society.

[/quote]

I've read enough of the book to know it's paranoid conspiracy nonsense. The beauty of the information age is that you don't have to read something cover to cover, you can read reviews and discussions of any book online and understand where the author's perspective lies. Life's too short to spend it reading rants like; "Perhaps we are all dupes, manipulated by elite white male capitalists who orchestrate how history is written as part of their scheme to perpetuate their own power and privilege at the expense of the rest of us.".

In fact, the only thing that might be a bigger waste of time than reading page to page that propaganda would be conversing with someone who calls every relief worker who claims to have been shot at a liar. Or that would be the case if that conversation didn't serve the combined purposes of comic relief and a reminder or how far from reality some people chose to live.

The fact is you're nothing but a black bigot, no better than some of the white bigots we've seen here. The less we hear from you two sides of the same coin types, the better off we'll all be.

[/quote]

Propoganda and truth.  Two words that republicans often get confused.

No problem.

It is laughable that you would call me a "black bigot".  After all..."most of my friends are white".

Not once have I stated any kind of racist agenda.  You can be as white as you want to be.  I don't care.  Just don't be ignorant.  Unfortunately you are WILLFULLY ignorant.

Not once have I screamed "down with whitey" or "the white man shouldn't vote".  I have only tried to enlighten you of the black experience.  That is where I differ from both YOU AND INQUISITIVE (AND STARKA).  Each one of you has an agenda to suppress and repress a particular demographic for a nature of their birth that was not their own.  That, my pale friend, is a shame.

Any questions?

Sep 6, 2005 7:48 pm

"Propoganda and truth.  Two words that republicans often get confused."

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

LOL, as if anyone hawking that conspiracy nonsense is in a position to talk about the differences in those words. And just what is “propaganda” anyway?

 

"It is laughable that you would call me a "black bigot".  After all..."most of my friends are white"."

 

"Most of my friends are____", the last refuge of every bigot. And you don't have friends, I'm sure.

 

 

"Not once have I stated any kind of racist agenda."

 

You sure have. You've hawked a book that claims "rich white men" manipulate everything to hold others down and you've made the most outrageous defense of snipers in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />New Orleans for NO REASON other than the color of their skin. I have no doubt that is the shooters were white and the rescuers were black you’d have a completely different view of events.

 

"  You can be as white as you want to be.  I don't care.  Just don't be ignorant.  Unfortunately you are WILLFULLY ignorant."

 

Ouch, my feeling are hurt. The bigot says I'm ignorant. If only I had the good sense to agree with him.  <?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /> 

 

"Not once have I screamed "down with whitey" or "the white man shouldn't vote"."

 

Your book screams "down with whitey", but even if it didn't, your list isn't a complete one of the attitudes and comments made by bigots.

 

 "I have only tried to enlighten you of the black experience. "

 

I could be wrong, but I doubt your advice to read the goofy book about "rich white men" and your defense of snipers could be considered a majority opinion, much less a universal opinion among blacks.  You appointed you and your book as the representatives of the “black experience”?

 

" That is where I differ from both YOU AND INQUISITIVE (AND STARKA).  Each one of you has an agenda to suppress and repress a particular demographic for a nature of their birth that was not their own.  That, my pale friend, is a shame."

 

That's just plain funny. Because I don't buy into your theory that the shooters were just trying to signal rescuers (and calling every witness to the shootings liars is just insanity) and because I find your book about how THE MAN controls and manipulates everything to keep people down, I’m the same as someone that says “people can’t escape genetics”.

 

You’re nothing but a sideshow, a miniature example of a race hustler. A digital, ¼ sized Al Sharpton. People like you keep people in their separate, angry little camps, nursing grudges and keeping stereotypes alive. You and your Klansman twins are what keeps people apart.

Sep 6, 2005 7:55 pm

[quote=Sniper]<O:P></O:P>

"It is laughable that you would call me a "black bigot".  After all..."most of my friends are white"."

"Most of my friends are____", the last refuge of every bigot. And you don't have friends, I'm sure.

 

[/quote]

If you are too stupid to recognize tongue-n-cheek sarcasm you are probably too stupid to live. 

Sep 6, 2005 8:09 pm

[quote=Sniper]

"Not once have I stated any kind of racist agenda."

You sure have. You've hawked a book that claims "rich white men" manipulate everything to hold others down and you've made the most outrageous defense of snipers in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />New Orleans for NO REASON other than the color of their skin. I have no doubt that is the shooters were white and the rescuers were black you’d have a completely different view of events.

"  You can be as white as you want to be.  I don't care.  Just don't be ignorant.  Unfortunately you are WILLFULLY ignorant."

Ouch, my feeling are hurt. The bigot says I'm ignorant. If only I had the good sense to agree with him.  <?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /> 

 

"Not once have I screamed "down with whitey" or "the white man shouldn't vote"."

Your book screams "down with whitey", but even if it didn't, your list isn't a complete one of the attitudes and comments made by bigots.

 "I have only tried to enlighten you of the black experience. "

I could be wrong, but I doubt your advice to read the goofy book about "rich white men" and your defense of snipers could be considered a majority opinion, much less a universal opinion among blacks.  You appointed you and your book as the representatives of the “black experience”?

" That is where I differ from both YOU AND INQUISITIVE (AND STARKA).  Each one of you has an agenda to suppress and repress a particular demographic for a nature of their birth that was not their own.  That, my pale friend, is a shame."

That's just plain funny. Because I don't buy into your theory that the shooters were just trying to signal rescuers (and calling every witness to the shootings liars is just insanity) and because I find your book about how THE MAN controls and manipulates everything to keep people down, I’m the same as someone that says “people can’t escape genetics”.

You’re nothing but a sideshow, a miniature example of a race hustler. A digital, ¼ sized Al Sharpton. People like you keep people in their separate, angry little camps, nursing grudges and keeping stereotypes alive. You and your Klansman twins are what keeps people apart.

[/quote]

I didn't appoint the book as representative of the black experience.  The book is representative of America and it's true history.  During which the United States was (and has been) oppressive to several classes and races.  Perhaps you should read the book.  Not once did I, or the book, mention "rich white men".

Unfortunately you continue to remain WILLFULLY IGNORANT.  Remember, only you can choose not to be stupid.

Anyway, it is kind of hard for me to be separate in my role as a retail producer / manager.

I guess you are also too stupid to realize that if somebody wanted to shoot a rescuer they would have been shot by now.  But then...you have a way of failing to see the logic.  Seriously...you actually think that all of these news reports of people shooting at rescuers are suspicious seeing how no rescuer has been shot?  Come on...you actually think that all of these blood thirsty drug crazed gun toting black thugs who running through black and white neighborhoods raping , killing, and terrorizing everyone in their sight never learned to use a gun properly during their blood lust rampages?

Do you know how stupid that sounds?  Do you realize your conflicting logic?  First we are all blood thirsty gun toting savages that kill without a thought.  Of course...we kill so many people that we never learned how to aim a gun.  You logic is flawed Dr. Watson.

Sep 6, 2005 8:39 pm

[quote=menotellname][quote=Sniper]<O:P></O:P>

"It is laughable that you would call me a "black bigot".  After all..."most of my friends are white"."

"Most of my friends are____", the last refuge of every bigot. And you don't have friends, I'm sure.

 

[/quote]

If you are too stupid to recognize tongue-n-cheek sarcasm you are probably too stupid to live. 

[/quote]

Sarcasm needs humor to work. Your comment lacked it.

Also, weren't you the guy that said;

"The book doesn't mention Martians.  Nor does it state that moon landings were faked.

Who is the paranoid person now?

Looks like you!!!"

 

 

Sep 6, 2005 8:51 pm

"I didn't appoint the book as representative of the black experience."

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

 So hawking the leftist propaganda and  trying to “enlighten [me] of the black experience” were unrelated?

 

“Not once did I, or the book, mention "rich white men".”

 

Read your own book, please. I provided you a quote “…elite white male capitalists who orchestrate..”. Let me translate for you, that means RICH WHITE MEN.

 

“Anyway, it is kind of hard for me to be separate in my role as a retail producer / manager.”

 

A perfect non-sequitur, unless you’re trying to point out to us what a miserable company would employ you in either role.

 

“I guess you are also too stupid to realize that if somebody wanted to shoot a rescuer they would have been shot by now.”

 

You might want to debate the witnesses who, unlike you, were actually there. They would include people in boats, pilots and members of the N.O. police department and the National Guard. The last two groups now have bodies of people they shot who were armed and were shooting at rescuers. I suppose next you’ll tell us they’re all racists.

 

What a clown.

Sep 6, 2005 9:06 pm

[quote=Sniper][quote=menotellname][quote=Sniper]<O:P></O:P>

"It is laughable that you would call me a "black bigot".  After all..."most of my friends are white"."

"Most of my friends are____", the last refuge of every bigot. And you don't have friends, I'm sure.

 

[/quote]

If you are too stupid to recognize tongue-n-cheek sarcasm you are probably too stupid to live. 

[/quote]

Sarcasm needs humor to work. Your comment lacked it.

Also, weren't you the guy that said;

"The book doesn't mention Martians.  Nor does it state that moon landings were faked.

Who is the paranoid person now?

Looks like you!!!"

[/quote]

Face it Sniper.  You were too stupid to recognize tongue-n-cheek humor that highlights exactly what most "white people" say when confronted with racism.  Then you came with the typical "black response" of "that is just what a racist would say".  You are nothing but a stereotype of a stereotype.  You are typical and you are pitiful.

As far as the Martian statement...I just refuted what you said.  You are the only that claimed the book stated that Martians landed on the earth and that the moon landings were fake.  I simply stated that you were incorrect and obviously have not read the book.  That contention still stands, along with the contention that you are WILLFULLY IGNORANT.

Sep 6, 2005 9:12 pm

[quote=Sniper]

"I didn't appoint the book as representative of the black experience."

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

 So hawking the leftist propaganda and  trying to “enlighten [me] of the black experience” were unrelated?

“Not once did I, or the book, mention "rich white men".”

Read your own book, please. I provided you a quote “…elite white male capitalists who orchestrate..”. Let me translate for you, that means RICH WHITE MEN.

“Anyway, it is kind of hard for me to be separate in my role as a retail producer / manager.”

A perfect non-sequitur, unless you’re trying to point out to us what a miserable company would employ you in either role.

“I guess you are also too stupid to realize that if somebody wanted to shoot a rescuer they would have been shot by now.”

You might want to debate the witnesses who, unlike you, were actually there. They would include people in boats, pilots and members of the N.O. police department and the National Guard. The last two groups now have bodies of people they shot who were armed and were shooting at rescuers. I suppose next you’ll tell us they’re all racists.

What a clown.

[/quote]

Hmmmm...

Working in reverse.  Most of those "testimonies" of shots fired are not from "witnesses".  Second, unless interviews as to motive and ballistics reports as to trajectory have been done to confirm that they were "shot at" I don't think those claims hold any water (so to speak).

Non sequiter?  I thought the remark was right in line with the subject matter being discussed.  I supervise both black and white employees and each of the locations that I serve has a varying demographic of their clientele.  Kind of hard to be separate...especially as a type "A" personality.

Elite white male capitalists?  Sounds like yuppie scum to me.  Rich?  Not necassarily.  Just unduly "privileged".

Leftist propoganda?  Only if you are a white male that feels that all of society has it out for you.  You must be a sad soul to believe that there is such a conspiracy theory. 

Sep 7, 2005 12:56 am

"As far as the Martian statement...I just refuted what you said.  You are the only that claimed the book stated that Martians landed on the earth and that the moon landings were fake."

You get funnier by the minute. Read the line again and see if you, NOW realize what everyone else here did THEN, that I wasn't talking about YOUR specific book, but of conspiracy garbage books in general. "Also, I won't be wasting time reading books that say we faked the moon landings or books that claim JFK was killed by Martians.".

I'm blushing for you, your comment was just hysterical. Thanks for the laugh.

Sep 7, 2005 12:59 am

Don't look now, but someone was arrested for "signaling" helicopters. 

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nat-gen/2005/sep/0 6/090606919.html

: September 06, 2005 at 15:8:43 PDT

Man Charged With Shooting at Helicopter


ASSOCIATED PRESS

NEW ORLEANS (AP) - A New Orleans man was arrested and charged with shooting at a military rescue helicopter. Authorities said the bullets apparently did not hit anything.

Wendell Bailey, 20, was taken into custody Monday night by agents with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

The agents were in the neighborhood to investigate neighbors' complaints of gunfire and heard shots from an apartment window as a helicopter flew over.

I'm sure the people in the neighborhood who complained, the helicopter pilot AND the ATF agents are all lying racists. Right menotellname? 

Sep 7, 2005 2:00 am

Maybe the witnesses, pilot and ATF should read the book.

Sep 7, 2005 12:59 pm

[quote=Sniper]

Don't look now, but someone was arrested for "signaling" helicopters. 

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nat-gen/2005/sep/0 6/090606919.html

: September 06, 2005 at 15:8:43 PDT

Man Charged With Shooting at Helicopter


ASSOCIATED PRESS

NEW ORLEANS (AP) - A New Orleans man was arrested and charged with shooting at a military rescue helicopter. Authorities said the bullets apparently did not hit anything.

Wendell Bailey, 20, was taken into custody Monday night by agents with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

The agents were in the neighborhood to investigate neighbors' complaints of gunfire and heard shots from an apartment window as a helicopter flew over.

I'm sure the people in the neighborhood who complained, the helicopter pilot AND the ATF agents are all lying racists. Right menotellname? 

[/quote]

Charged is not the same as convicted.

There still needs to be enough evidence to convict.

Keep me updated.

Sep 7, 2005 1:11 pm

[quote=Starka]Maybe the witnesses, pilot and ATF should read the book.[/quote]

You know...with the extremely detailed story (NOT)...

Anyway.  The "detailed" story doesn't say that the ATF agents saw anything.  They just took him into custody.  The neighbors "heard gunfire".  I am sure that all of this means that the neighbors that didn't see anything.  The article doesn't mention "witnesses", only neighbors that "heard shots from an apartment window as a helicopter flew over".

This is hardly convincing evidence.

Sep 7, 2005 1:40 pm

He was a good man who just needed attention. NO 20 year old fires warning shots when there are about 500 boats going up and down the streets. Also a 20 year old can go and get help.

The thug probably raped a few women to boot. It seems the only racists in this enviorment are Jessy Jackson and Al Sharpton. I dont here any white leaders saying anything about race. Then you listen to the black leaders and they cant say anything, but whites hate blacks.

Thousands wont leave and would not have left. The AFWT, Coast Guard, state and federal governement is doing everything possible to save lives. Yeah there were errors and delays, but that is life. It sucks at times, but everyone did the best they could.

Sep 7, 2005 2:08 pm

Sorry about the spelling I was in a rush.. But it aggrivates me that when Americans come together these money hungry skum bags (Sharpton and Jackson) use this for their cause. Strong black leaders blast Jackson all the time since he has so many financial ties to his bs.

Sep 8, 2005 5:51 pm

[quote=executivejock]

Sorry about the spelling I was in a rush.. But it aggrivates me that when Americans come together these money hungry skum bags (Sharpton and Jackson) use this for their cause. Strong black leaders blast Jackson all the time since he has so many financial ties to his bs.

[/quote]

For once I agree with you about Sharpton and Jackson.  However, at least they are doing something.  This is better than most of their detractors (on both sides) who often do nothing.

Sep 9, 2005 5:15 pm

"For once I agree with you about Sharpton and Jackson.  However, at least they are doing something."

Besides furthering their own careers by creating and inflaming racial tensions, what is it that they're doing?

Sep 9, 2005 7:11 pm

[quote=sniper1]

"For once I agree with you about Sharpton and Jackson.  However, at least they are doing something."

Besides furthering their own careers by creating and inflaming racial tensions, what is it that they're doing?

[/quote]

They are pointing out the flaws with the system.

Sep 9, 2005 10:30 pm

Pointing out flaws without proposing any viable or even non viable solutions is a complete waste of everyone's time.  Otherwise it is just bitching to hear your own voice.

There are a lot of flaws in any system devised by the government. That is a given.  So what are the solutions?  Tearing other people down, whether deserved or not is easy. Coming up with ideas is hard. Probably that is why the paucity of ideas is so huge and the overwhelmingly shrill chorus of negativity is so loud from the Democrats.

Sep 9, 2005 11:09 pm

[quote=babbling looney]

Pointing out flaws without proposing any viable or even non viable solutions is a complete waste of everyone's time.  Otherwise it is just bitching to hear your own voice.

There are a lot of flaws in any system devised by the government. That is a given.  So what are the solutions?  Tearing other people down, whether deserved or not is easy. Coming up with ideas is hard. Probably that is why the paucity of ideas is so huge and the overwhelmingly shrill chorus of negativity is so loud from the Democrats.

[/quote]

They actually do propose solutions sometimes.  Unfortunately some people like to stick their heads in the sand and pretend that problems do not exist.

Reality is not negativity.  It is reality.  Much like pointing out to your clients that investments can go and do go down.  Painting sh*t red is still sh*t.

Tearing people down is easy if they f**k up.  Bush has f**ked up to the Nth degree.  Similar to his republican party...

Sep 11, 2005 6:32 pm

Skin cancer... Man you just dont get it.

If you believe everything the dems tell you your an extremist. If you believe the republicans are all right then you are clueless. They both say alot of crap, but the dems are a three headed dragon. You have Howard Dean, Michael Moore (Moveon.org) and the Clintons. They all hate one another. They all change their positions and its a joke!

Maybe I should not be so rude, but its like come on dude. Your smart enough to post on here, but you dont look at the big picture.

The great leaders of our country have vision!! Long term vision. Social Security is a failed system that sucks for all of us. If you die before you hit 70 you have paid in about 300k and you get 0.... Okay maybe you get 1400 for 36 months so you get about 45k. Then if you die you would only lose about 80% of your money. The dems try to say different. They try to scare the old and poor or their base..

Either way who the hell do you support? Gore and his child DEAN? Do you remember were going to Vermont, then to California then to Idaho and then.... The guy is off his rocker.

Sep 12, 2005 12:39 pm

[quote=menotellname][quote=sniper1]

"For once I agree with you about Sharpton and Jackson.  However, at least they are doing something."

Besides furthering their own careers by creating and inflaming racial tensions, what is it that they're doing?

[/quote]

They are pointing out the flaws with the system.

[/quote]

No, pointing out flaws would including asking the Mayor of N.O. why he didn't use is buses to get poor people out of town and why he sent poor people to the Superdome without food, water or securing.

All they're doing is their usual practice of getting attention and furthering their careers by claiming racism.

Sep 12, 2005 12:40 pm

[quote=menotellname][quote=babbling looney]

Pointing out flaws without proposing any viable or even non viable solutions is a complete waste of everyone's time.  Otherwise it is just bitching to hear your own voice.

There are a lot of flaws in any system devised by the government. That is a given.  So what are the solutions?  Tearing other people down, whether deserved or not is easy. Coming up with ideas is hard. Probably that is why the paucity of ideas is so huge and the overwhelmingly shrill chorus of negativity is so loud from the Democrats.

[/quote]

They actually do propose solutions sometimes.  Unfortunately some people like to stick their heads in the sand and pretend that problems do not exist.

[/quote]

Name some of their solutions and while you're at it, please explain wtf the mayor of NO and the Gov of LA were thinking?

Sep 12, 2005 3:08 pm

[quote=sniper1]

All they're doing is their usual practice of getting attention and furthering their careers by claiming racism.

[/quote]

Okay.  So we all agree that racism exists but everybody says "but not in my backyard".  So where does it exist?

Answer:  Everyplace.

Unfortunately you have never experienced racism.  If you did you would have a better understanding.  You don't and you won't.

Sep 12, 2005 3:15 pm

[quote=sniper1]

Name some of their solutions and while you're at it, please explain wtf the mayor of NO and the Gov of LA were thinking?[/quote]

Sure.  You tell me what the president was thinking first.

Of course Louisiana is a red state...

Any questions?

Sep 13, 2005 9:49 pm

Only minorities have racism and discrimination..?

Yeah like the two times when I was a kid and a few colored folks kicked my butt.. Or pushed me around at the ball park.

The times when I was informed I was to young to get the big promotion by numerous members of mgmt.  

The fact is life is not always fair.

The bottom line is people like me are open minded and well rounded. We dont look at the US and say "you owe us" we say "we are going to make our own destiny. Screw the social handouts. I look in the mirror and know I am true to myself."

I dont know if you can say the same?

Sep 13, 2005 11:14 pm

[quote=menotellname]

[quote=sniper1]

All they're doing is their usual practice of getting attention and furthering their careers by claiming racism.

[/quote]

Okay.  So we all agree that racism exists but everybody says "but not in my backyard".  So where does it exist?

Answer:  Everyplace.

Unfortunately you have never experienced racism.  If you did you would have a better understanding.  You don't and you won't.

[/quote]

So since there is racism it's OK to further your "career" by screaming racism on the top of your lungs when there really is no evidence.

Got it

Sep 13, 2005 11:17 pm

[quote=menotellname]

[quote=sniper1]

Name some of their solutions and while you're at it, please explain wtf the mayor of NO and the Gov of LA were thinking?[/quote]

Sure.  You tell me what the president was thinking first.

[/quote]

Well, we know from stories in the NY Times in the first 24 hours he was saying "OMG these clowns are screwing this up by the numbers. Can we simply take control from the Mayor of NO and the Gov of LA?".

Now, care to tell us why the Mayor and Gov screwed up so badly?

Sep 14, 2005 11:33 pm

[quote=mikebutler222]

Well, we know from stories in the NY Times in the first 24 hours he was saying "OMG these clowns are screwing this up by the numbers. Can we simply take control from the Mayor of NO and the Gov of LA?".

Now, care to tell us why the Mayor and Gov screwed up so badly?

[/quote]

Local officals deserve some blame but I believe that the newly created Department of Homeland Security and FEMA have jurisdiction over national disasters and coordination of multi-state efforts (Louisiana and Mississippi).

So...tell me why Mr. Bush...his "department of homeland security"...his croonies...and his appointees failed miserably across mulitple channels, multiple jurisdications in which they had domain, and multiple states.

Sep 15, 2005 12:08 am

[quote=menotellname][quote=mikebutler222] <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Well, we know from stories in the NY Times in the first 24 hours he was saying "OMG these clowns are screwing this up by the numbers. Can we simply take control from the Mayor of NO and the Gov of LA?".

Now, care to tell us why the Mayor and Gov screwed up so badly?

[/quote]

Local officals deserve some blame but I believe that the newly created Department of Homeland Security and FEMA have jurisdiction over national disasters and coordination of multi-state efforts (Louisiana and Mississippi).

So...tell me why Mr. Bush...his "department of homeland security"...his croonies...and his appointees failed miserably across mulitple channels, multiple jurisdications in which they had domain, and multiple states.

[/quote]

 That's a nice try at dodging the issue, but the fact is the worst things we all saw on TV in the very early stages, people without food or water, people being abused by lawless thugs, people stranded, were all the responsibility of the local and state officials during that period of time when they know the Feds can't be expected to be on the ground. Had they (the locals) not made such a complete and total mess of it any glitches in the Federal  response would have been unimportant. The Feds don’t have IMMEDIATE jurisdiction.

I don't know about you, but I've been unlucky enough to be caught in hurricane evacuations and the aftermath (I was lucky enough to not have to weather the storm) and I can tell you from personal experience that the Feds aren’t supposed to be on the ground for the first 72 hours.

Sep 16, 2005 2:07 am

Is it common sense to activate about 500 guard troops? If they were their by Wednesday (blanco requested help after this day) it may have helped?

Also is it common sense to provide food and water at your shelters?

In 2004 (New Orleans) there was a large cat 5 exercise with local, federal and state leaders. They expected 100k to stay in city. This happened and for the first few days the city and state leadership failed extremly bad.

Sep 16, 2005 1:39 pm

[quote=mikebutler222]

[quote=menotellname][quote=mikebutler222] <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Well, we know from stories in the NY Times in the first 24 hours he was saying "OMG these clowns are screwing this up by the numbers. Can we simply take control from the Mayor of NO and the Gov of LA?".

Now, care to tell us why the Mayor and Gov screwed up so badly?

[/quote]

Local officals deserve some blame but I believe that the newly created Department of Homeland Security and FEMA have jurisdiction over national disasters and coordination of multi-state efforts (Louisiana and Mississippi).

So...tell me why Mr. Bush...his "department of homeland security"...his croonies...and his appointees failed miserably across mulitple channels, multiple jurisdications in which they had domain, and multiple states.

[/quote]

 That's a nice try at dodging the issue, but the fact is the worst things we all saw on TV in the very early stages, people without food or water, people being abused by lawless thugs, people stranded, were all the responsibility of the local and state officials during that period of time when they know the Feds can't be expected to be on the ground. Had they (the locals) not made such a complete and total mess of it any glitches in the Federal  response would have been unimportant. The Feds don’t have IMMEDIATE jurisdiction.

I don't know about you, but I've been unlucky enough to be caught in hurricane evacuations and the aftermath (I was lucky enough to not have to weather the storm) and I can tell you from personal experience that the Feds aren’t supposed to be on the ground for the first 72 hours.

[/quote]

Wrong again.

At the point at which President Bush declared Katrina a Federal disaster (before the hurricane even struck land) he made himself the person in charge.

Check out the FEMA site...August 29th...

http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18478

Game...

Set...

Match...

Sep 16, 2005 7:41 pm

[quote=menotellname][quote=mikebutler222]

[quote=menotellname][quote=mikebutler222] <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Well, we know from stories in the NY Times in the first 24 hours he was saying "OMG these clowns are screwing this up by the numbers. Can we simply take control from the Mayor of NO and the Gov of LA?".

Now, care to tell us why the Mayor and Gov screwed up so badly?

[/quote]

Local officals deserve some blame but I believe that the newly created Department of Homeland Security and FEMA have jurisdiction over national disasters and coordination of multi-state efforts (Louisiana and Mississippi).

So...tell me why Mr. Bush...his "department of homeland security"...his croonies...and his appointees failed miserably across mulitple channels, multiple jurisdications in which they had domain, and multiple states.

[/quote]

 That's a nice try at dodging the issue, but the fact is the worst things we all saw on TV in the very early stages, people without food or water, people being abused by lawless thugs, people stranded, were all the responsibility of the local and state officials during that period of time when they know the Feds can't be expected to be on the ground. Had they (the locals) not made such a complete and total mess of it any glitches in the Federal  response would have been unimportant. The Feds don’t have IMMEDIATE jurisdiction.

I don't know about you, but I've been unlucky enough to be caught in hurricane evacuations and the aftermath (I was lucky enough to not have to weather the storm) and I can tell you from personal experience that the Feds aren’t supposed to be on the ground for the first 72 hours.

[/quote]

Wrong again.

At the point at which President Bush declared Katrina a Federal disaster (before the hurricane even struck land) he made himself the person in charge.

Check out the FEMA site...August 29th...

http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18478

Game...

Set...

Match...

[/quote]

Amazing. The fool posts the SAME ERROR ON THREE THREADS. Read the link, Sonny, it ONLY refers to FEDERAL FUNDING ASSISTANCE for the loacl efforts. It does NOT say the Feds are in charge. In fact, the Feds don't even have the LEGAL RIGHT to assume responsibility until ASKED FOR by the locals.

What a wackjob  

Sep 16, 2005 11:01 pm

[quote=mikebutler222]

Amazing. The fool posts the SAME ERROR ON THREE THREADS. Read the link, Sonny, it ONLY refers to FEDERAL FUNDING ASSISTANCE for the loacl efforts. It does NOT say the Feds are in charge. In fact, the Feds don't even have the LEGAL RIGHT to assume responsibility until ASKED FOR by the locals.

What a wackjob  

[/quote]

Not a mistake, Mike.  You're just that stupid.

The Feds ARE IN CHARGE of a "federal emergency" (declared 8/27) and a "federal disaster" (declared 8/29).

Are you too stupid to realize that local officials do not have jurisdiction over federal officials?  The feds took control and Bush was the point man as of 8/29.  All failures are a direct result of his poor leadership.  The locals simply assist the feds.

Any questions?

Sep 17, 2005 6:44 pm

[quote=menotellname][quote=mikebutler222]

Amazing. The fool posts the SAME ERROR ON THREE THREADS. Read the link, Sonny, it ONLY refers to FEDERAL FUNDING ASSISTANCE for the loacl efforts. It does NOT say the Feds are in charge. In fact, the Feds don't even have the LEGAL RIGHT to assume responsibility until ASKED FOR by the locals.

What a wackjob  

[/quote]

Not a mistake, Mike.  You're just that stupid.

The Feds ARE IN CHARGE of a "federal emergency" (declared 8/27) and a "federal disaster" (declared 8/29).

Are you too stupid to realize that local officials do not have jurisdiction over federal officials?  The feds took control and Bush was the point man as of 8/29.  All failures are a direct result of his poor leadership.  The locals simply assist the feds.

Any questions?

[/quote]

I've corrected you on the other two threads where you made the same error. Look there for the corrections, but here's a hint; remember your 5th grade civics classes and the FEDERAL system of government we have ....

Sep 17, 2005 7:53 pm

[quote=mikebutler222][quote=menotellname][quote=mikebutler222]

Amazing. The fool posts the SAME ERROR ON THREE THREADS. Read the link, Sonny, it ONLY refers to FEDERAL FUNDING ASSISTANCE for the loacl efforts. It does NOT say the Feds are in charge. In fact, the Feds don't even have the LEGAL RIGHT to assume responsibility until ASKED FOR by the locals.

What a wackjob  

[/quote]

Not a mistake, Mike.  You're just that stupid.

The Feds ARE IN CHARGE of a "federal emergency" (declared 8/27) and a "federal disaster" (declared 8/29).

Are you too stupid to realize that local officials do not have jurisdiction over federal officials?  The feds took control and Bush was the point man as of 8/29.  All failures are a direct result of his poor leadership.  The locals simply assist the feds.

Any questions?

[/quote]

I've corrected you on the other two threads where you made the same error. Look there for the corrections, but here's a hint; remember your 5th grade civics classes and the FEDERAL system of government we have ....

[/quote]

For you Mike:

BLAME THE FEDS, NOT THE STATE

1. Jurisdiction: FEMA has the statutory authority under Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, PL 100-707, signed into law on November 23, 1988 to coordinate the federal response to "national emergencies". Katrina constitutes a "national emergency" for a variety of reasons including the size, scope, and economic impact of the hurricane. In that situation, FEMA has jurisdiction to coordinate the emergency response. Unfortunately, the process of folding FEMA into the Department of Homeland Security has emasculated the Agency to the point that it's almost impossible for it to perform its mission, as we all saw so graphically.

2. Spinning Legal Hurdles: The Bush administration has claimed (as reported by the Washington Post and Newsweek) that Louisiana never requested federal assistance which is why the response took so long. Aside from the fact that the FedGov doesn't actually need a request to offer assistance and perhaps even to provide it in crisis situations (I don't know the law on that one), the Bush claim is factually inaccurate. The Bush admin's claim that the Governor of Louisiana's reluctance to declare a State of Emergency and request Federal help which explains the slow response is frustrated to the point of total collapse by the simple fact that Governor Blanco declared a State of Emergency and requested Federal assistance before Katrina struck in this letter that she sent to Bush on August 28 (who happened not to get it because he was on vacation, again). I'm sure the Washington Post "correction" issued the following day stung just a bit.

3. This is what happens when you de-fund disaster preparedness measures: This is an easy point to make because there's plenty of documentation. Instead of belaboring it, I'll sum up the basics. Louisiana, and New Orleans in particular, have continually requested Federal Pre-Disaster Mitigation funds. Prior to this administration, they usually got them. That's why they had a levee system that could withstand Category 3 storms. But, the funds targeted for the region were gutted because it wasn't deemed a significant risk by the money people. The Chicago Tribune has more. As does the Clarion-Ledger (2002). Readers of those articles will notice that a Republican who was appointed as Assistant Secretary of the Army was sacked by Bush for speaking out against for the budget cuts that left New Orleans defenseless. And just for fun, here's one about how Bush gutted FEMA creating a bureaucratic nightmare leaving America defenseless. (The Chicago Tribune one is probably the best for those with limited time.)

Of course, major hurricanes were a significant risk and everyone knew about it, including FEMA who specifically game planned for this possibility. Readers of the National Geographic article will notice the lengthy debate about this whole issue that I prefer not to go into.

4. How, exactly, is a 1500 person police force supposed to forcibly evacuate 20,000 people that either refused to flee New Orleans or were unable to flee? Don't blame the city. They got the vast majority of people out. No matter how tragic the story, they did what they could.

Here's the bottom line: Long before this disaster ever crept into the equation, the Federal Government abandoned New Orleans with a minimum amount of protection from severe storms because they judged that a Category 5 Storm was unlikely and too expensive to justify. Later, when the doomsday scenario unfolded, our Federal Government was asleep on a couch somewhere in Texas. The response trickled out of Washington, people suffered and died, and the ruling political party circled the wagons and blamed everyone else for a situation that they contributed to. That's not just negligence, it's gross incompetence.

In 2001 people seemed willing to forgive Prez Bush for listening to that story about the goat (probably because it was so fascinating) because 9/11 was so shocking, it unfolded with no warning, and people seemed willing to believe that the President would be effected by it just like we all were. However, in 2005, there were only about 14 days of warning, no preparation from the FedGov (or even pre-positioning of troops, ships, supplies, etc), and a bureaucratic nightmare that could have been avoided had FEMA been run properly and kept separate as an independent organization.

I'll end this little rant with a poignant thought from my brother-in-law: What if this had been a terrorist attack?

Sep 17, 2005 7:58 pm

Take your ass beating like a man, Mike:

§ 5170a. GENERAL FEDERAL ASSISTANCE {Sec. 402}

In any major disaster, the President may--

direct any Federal agency, with or without reimbursement, to utilize its authorities and the resources granted to it under Federal law (including personnel, equipment, supplies, facilities, and managerial, technical, and advisory services) in support of State and local assistance efforts;

coordinate all disaster relief assistance (including voluntary assistance) provided by Federal agencies, private organizations, and State and local governments;

provide technical and advisory assistance to affected State and local governments for-- the performance of essential community services; issuance of warnings of risks and hazards; public health and safety information, including dissemination of such information; provision of health and safety measures; and management, control, and reduction of immediate threats to public health and safety; and

assist State and local governments in the distribution of medicine, food, and other consumable supplies, and emergency assistance.

(Pub. L. 93-288, title IV, § 402, as added Pub. L. 100-707, title I, § 106(a)(3), Nov. 23, 1988, 102 Stat. 4696.)

****************************************************

§5122. DEFINITIONS {Sec. 102}

As used in this chapter--

EMERGENCY. "Emergency" means any occasion or instance for which, in the determination of the President, Federal assistance is needed to supplement State and local efforts and capabilities to save lives and to protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in any part of the United States.

MAJOR DISASTER. "Major disaster" means any natural catastrophe (including any hurricane, tornado, storm, high water, winddriven water, tidal wave, tsunami, earthquake, volcanic eruption, landslide, mudslide, snowstorm, or drought), or, regardless of cause, any fire, flood, or explosion, in any part of the United States, which in the determination of the President causes damage of sufficient severity and magnitude to warrant major disaster assistance under this Act to supplement the efforts and available resources of States, local governments, and disaster relief organizations in alleviating the damage, loss, hardship, or suffering caused thereby.

"United States" means the fifty States, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa, and the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands.

"State" means any State of the United States, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa, and the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands.

"Governor" means the chief executive of any State.

Local government.--The term ‘local government' means- a county, municipality, city, town, township, public authority, school district, special district, intrastate district, council of governments (regardless of whether the council of governments is incorporated as a nonprofit corporation under State law), regional or interstate government entity, or agency or instrumentality of a local government; an Indian tribe or authorized tribal organization, or Alaska Native village or organization; and a rural community, unincorporated town or village, or other public entity, for which an application for assistance is made by a State or political subdivision of a State.

"Federal agency" means any department, independent establishment, Government corporation, or other agency of the executive branch of the Federal Government, including the United States Postal Service, but shall not include the American National Red Cross.

PUBLIC FACILITY. "Public facility" means the following facilities owned by a State or local government: Any flood control, navigation, irrigation, reclamation, public power, sewage treatment and collection, water supply and distribution, watershed development, or airport facility. Any non-Federal-aid street, road, or highway. Any other public building, structure, or system, including those used for educational, recreational, or cultural purposes. Any park.

PRIVATE NONPROFIT FACILITY. "Private nonprofit facility" means private nonprofit educational, utility, irrigation, emergency, medical, rehabilitational, and temporary or permanent custodial care facilities (including those for the aged and disabled), other private nonprofit facilities which provide essential services of a governmental nature to the general public, and facilities on Indian reservations as defined by the President.

(Pub. L. 93-288, title I, § 102, May 22, 1974, 88 Stat. 144; Pub. L. 100-707, title I, § 103(b)-(d), (f), Nov. 23, 1988, 102 Stat. 4689, 4690.) (As amended Feb. 24, 1992, Pub. L. 102-247, title II, § 205, 106 Stat. 38.)

(Pub. L. 106-390, § 302, October 30, 2000, 114 Stat. 1572)

****************************************************

Sep 17, 2005 8:02 pm

§ 5132. DISASTER WARNINGS {Sec. 202}

Readiness of Federal agencies to issue warnings to state and local officials

The President shall insure that all appropriate Federal agencies are prepared to issue warnings of disasters to State and local officials.

Technical assistance to State and local governments for effective warnings

The President shall direct appropriate Federal agencies to provide technical assistance to State and local governments to insure that timely and effective disaster warning is provided.

Warnings to governmental authorities and public endangered by disaster

The President is authorized to utilize or to make available to Federal, State, and local agencies the facilities of the civil defense communications system established and maintained pursuant to section 201(c) of the Federal Civil Defense Act of 1950, as amended (50 U.S.C. App 2281(c)), section 611(c) of this Act, or any other Federal communications system for the purpose of providing warning to governmental authorities and the civilian population in areas endangered by disasters. [§ 3412(b), Pub. L. 103-337, Oct. 5, 1994] [Reference to § 611(c) is incorrect; probably should be § 611(d). Technical correction needed]

Agreements with commercial communications systems for use of facilities

The President is authorized to enter into agreements with the officers or agents of any private or commercial communications systems who volunteer the use of their systems on a reimbursable or nonreimbursable basis for the purpose of providing warning to governmental authorities and the civilian population endangered by disasters.

(Pub. L. 93-288, title II, § 202, May 22, 1974, 88 Stat. 145.)

****************************************************

§ 5143. COORDINATING OFFICERS {Sec. 302}

Appointment of Federal coordinating officer

Immediately upon his declaration of a major disaster or emergency, the President shall appoint a Federal coordinating officer to operate in the affected area.

Functions of Federal coordinating officer

In order to effectuate the purposes of this Act, the Federal coordinating officer, within the affected area, shall--

make an initial appraisal of the types of relief most urgently needed; establish such field offices as he deems necessary and as are authorized by the President; coordinate the administration of relief, including activities of the State and local governments, the American National Red Cross, the Salvation Army, the Mennonite Disaster Service, and other relief or disaster assistance organizations, which agree to operate under his advice or direction, except that nothing contained in this Act shall limit or in any way affect the responsibilities of the American National Red Cross under the Act of January 5, 1905, as amended (33 Stat. 599) [36 U.S.C. §§ 1 et seq.]; and; take such other action, consistent with authority delegated to him by the President, and consistent with the provisions of this Act, as he may deem necessary to assist local citizens and public officials in promptly obtaining assistance to which they are entitled.; State coordinating officer When the President determines assistance under this Act is necessary, he shall request that the Governor of the affected State designate a State coordinating officer for the purpose of coordinating State and local disaster assistance efforts with those of the Federal Government.

(Pub. L. 93-288, title III, § 302, formerly § 303, May 22, 1974, 88 Stat. 147; renumbered § 302 and amended Pub. L. 100-707, title I, § 105(b), Nov. 23, 1988, 102 Stat. 4691.)

****************************************************

You know, Mike.  It seems to me that the President was in control from the time he declared a federal emergency on 8/27.

But then a GOP supporter would simply ignore the federal government's declarations in these FEMA documents...right?

Looks like the coordinating officer should have been in charge...right?

Sep 18, 2005 7:16 pm

mikebutler222
was sniper??

222 that was a wildcat for a long time ....who was your spotter? or did you learn to roll off and come back on?

the heat always caused a problem no?

Sep 19, 2005 3:06 pm

[quote=menotellname][quote=mikebutler222][quote=menotellname][quote=mikebutler222]

Amazing. The fool posts the SAME ERROR ON THREE THREADS. Read the link, Sonny, it ONLY refers to FEDERAL FUNDING ASSISTANCE for the loacl efforts. It does NOT say the Feds are in charge. In fact, the Feds don't even have the LEGAL RIGHT to assume responsibility until ASKED FOR by the locals.

What a wackjob  

[/quote]

Not a mistake, Mike.  You're just that stupid.

The Feds ARE IN CHARGE of a "federal emergency" (declared 8/27) and a "federal disaster" (declared 8/29).

Are you too stupid to realize that local officials do not have jurisdiction over federal officials?  The feds took control and Bush was the point man as of 8/29.  All failures are a direct result of his poor leadership.  The locals simply assist the feds.

Any questions?

[/quote]

I've corrected you on the other two threads where you made the same error. Look there for the corrections, but here's a hint; remember your 5th grade civics classes and the FEDERAL system of government we have ....

[/quote]

For you Mike:

BLAME THE FEDS, NOT THE STATE[/quote]

Nifty bit of cut and paste from a website, but it doesn't change the facts. The Feds do not have the legal authority to march into a community and assume control of state and local functions.

BTW, how about limiting you fiction on this subject to a single thread.

Sep 19, 2005 3:29 pm

[quote=mikebutler222]

Nifty bit of cut and paste from a website, but it doesn't change the facts. The Feds do not have the legal authority to march into a community and assume control of state and local functions.

BTW, how about limiting you fiction on this subject to a single thread.

[/quote]

Wrong again Mike.

In a federally declared disaster (or emergency) the feds have control.

Sep 19, 2005 3:59 pm

[quote=menotellname][quote=mikebutler222]

Nifty bit of cut and paste from a website, but it doesn't change the facts. The Feds do not have the legal authority to march into a community and assume control of state and local functions.

BTW, how about limiting you fiction on this subject to a single thread.

[/quote]

Wrong again Mike.

In a federally declared disaster (or emergency) the feds have control.

[/quote]

I corrected you on the other thread, see details there. Also;

SUBCHAPTER IV--MAJOR DISASTER ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

<?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />

§ 5170. PROCEDURE FOR DECLARATION {Sec. 401}

All requests for a declaration by the President that a major disaster exists shall be made by the Governor of the affected State. Such a request shall be based on a finding that the disaster is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and the affected local governments and that Federal assistance is necessary. As part of such request, and as a prerequisite to major disaster assistance under this Act, the Governor shall take appropriate response action under State law and direct execution of the State's emergency plan. The Governor shall furnish information on the nature and amount of State and local resources which have been or will be committed to alleviating the results of the disaster, and shall certify that, for the current disaster, State and local government obligations and expenditures (of which State commitments must be a significant proportion) will comply with all applicable cost-sharing requirements of this Act. Based on the request of a Governor under this section, the President may declare under this Act that a major disaster or emergency exists.

(Pub. L. 93-288, title IV, § 401, as added Pub. L. 100-707, title I, § 106(a)(3), Nov. 23, 1988, 102 Stat. 4696.)

Sep 19, 2005 4:36 pm

[quote=mikebutler222][quote=menotellname][quote=mikebutler222]

Nifty bit of cut and paste from a website, but it doesn't change the facts. The Feds do not have the legal authority to march into a community and assume control of state and local functions.

BTW, how about limiting you fiction on this subject to a single thread.

[/quote]

Wrong again Mike.

In a federally declared disaster (or emergency) the feds have control.

[/quote]

I corrected you on the other thread, see details there. Also;

SUBCHAPTER IV--MAJOR DISASTER ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

<?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />

§ 5170. PROCEDURE FOR DECLARATION {Sec. 401}

All requests for a declaration by the President that a major disaster exists shall be made by the Governor of the affected State. Such a request shall be based on a finding that the disaster is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and the affected local governments and that Federal assistance is necessary. As part of such request, and as a prerequisite to major disaster assistance under this Act, the Governor shall take appropriate response action under State law and direct execution of the State's emergency plan. The Governor shall furnish information on the nature and amount of State and local resources which have been or will be committed to alleviating the results of the disaster, and shall certify that, for the current disaster, State and local government obligations and expenditures (of which State commitments must be a significant proportion) will comply with all applicable cost-sharing requirements of this Act. Based on the request of a Governor under this section, the President may declare under this Act that a major disaster or emergency exists.

(Pub. L. 93-288, title IV, § 401, as added Pub. L. 100-707, title I, § 106(a)(3), Nov. 23, 1988, 102 Stat. 4696.)

[/quote]

Here Mike...take a look...

The entire National Response Plan...all 426 pages:

http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRP_FullText.pdf

I like Section III, Roles and Responsibilities, under the heading Federal Government.  Under the subsections; Department of Homeland Security, Secretary of Homeland Security...item 4.

Which clearly states:

"Pursuant to HSPD-5, the Secretary of Homeland Security is responsible for coordinating Federal operations within the United States to prepare for, respond to, and recover from terrorist attacks, major disasters, and other emergencies.  HSPD-5 further designates the Secretary of Homeland Security as the "principal Federal official" for domestic incident management.

In this role, the Secretary is also responsible for coordinating Federal resources utilized in response to or recovery from terrorist attacks, major disasters, or other emergencies if and when any of the following four conditions applies:

(1)  a Federal department or agency acting under its own authority has requested DHS assistance;

(2)  the resources of State and local authorities are overwhelmed and Federal assistance is requested;

(3)  more than one Federal department or agency has become substantially involved in responding to the incident; or

(4)  the Secretary has been directed to assume incident management responsibilities by the President."

****************************************************

You are Starka keep harping on #2.  Keep in mind that the exact verbage states "or" (see number 3) not "and".

Also, #4 applied from 8/29 at the absolute lastest when the President declared a Federal disaster and sent in Mike Brown.

Any questions?

Mike, I am sure that you will post some useless diatribe after reading page 8...

*sighs*

Sep 19, 2005 5:22 pm

You’ve been corrected on the other thread, AGAIN.

Sep 19, 2005 6:16 pm

For you, Mike…one thread.

Sep 20, 2005 1:23 am

Even if the feds were in control.. When in our history did they just march in and take over??

9-11 the mayor and local government took control?

Hurricane IVAN FEMA was here the third day after.. The state took care of their own..

100 of thousands of acers on fire in the west.. State was in control... I guess National guard units assist..

Was there ever a time when the fed just took over with the military?

Sep 20, 2005 1:27 am

Yes.  Detroit, 1968.  President Johnson sent in the 82nd Airborne to quell the riots.  If memory serves, the justification given was that it was to quell an insurrection.

Sep 20, 2005 5:40 am

Ohh yeah some prierus comunitdeting (what ever).. Yeah I read that today and it was for more or less a riot.

Amazing thing is I was in the airport last week and this nice guy about 75 was talking. He said he loved the Salvation Army since they were there during the 68 Detroit riot. He went on how it started ... I better not bring it up... since some people will freak out if I use anything close to a minorit. word.

So for the most part oney when there is a riot, but nothing else. 

Sep 20, 2005 11:28 am

[quote=executivejock]

Ohh yeah some prierus comunitdeting (what ever).. Yeah I read that today and it was for more or less a riot.

Amazing thing is I was in the airport last week and this nice guy about 75 was talking. He said he loved the Salvation Army since they were there during the 68 Detroit riot. He went on how it started ... I better not bring it up... since some people will freak out if I use anything close to a minorit. word.

So for the most part oney when there is a riot, but nothing else. 

[/quote]

What?

Sep 20, 2005 12:52 pm

[quote=Starka]Yes.  Detroit, 1968.  President Johnson sent in the 82nd Airborne to quell the riots.  If memory serves, the justification given was that it was to quell an insurrection.[/quote]

I believe LBJ did it under the authority granted him under a law called the Insurrection Act.

Sep 21, 2005 4:18 am

The USCG is a slightly different animal.  During wartime, the Coast Guard falls under the Navy Department.  In peacetime, it's part of the Department of Transportation, giving the Service afloat interstate and intrastate jurisdiction.  On drug interdictions,  Coast Guard officers are aboard Navy ships, and in fact are the first to board and are in charge of the boarding party when suspect ships are boarded within territorial waters.  The DoT status is what gives the boarding legitimacy.  (Now there's one for the Admiralty Lawyers in the crowd.)

Sep 21, 2005 12:48 pm

[quote=SonnyClips]
If the feds couldn't just willy nilly send people to help there wouldn't be a Coast Guard for christ sake, hell they are always saving peoples asses in the Columbia River and from what I gather they were in the Big NO before Fema. [/quote]

The CG is part of the Dept of Transportation. They ALWAYS have the mission to rescue. They don't take over a function of state or local governments as there is no state CG.

[quote=SonnyClips]

Jesus motherf**king christ bastard of god whats wrong with you people don't you see you are so off on this one. Mexico could send troops to help NOLA so why is it so hard for you to see that Posse Comitatus has little to do with this situation.

[/quote]

Mexico could only send troops with US FORCES bringing them and directing them. There are laws that prevent, short of an insurrection, the president from deploying Federal troops without a request from the locals. You must have slept through those civis classes...

Sep 21, 2005 11:07 pm

[quote=SonnyClips]I have to say the exchange with you Starka is a Pleasure. Any disparaging remarks I have directed at you in the past, especially those that weren't funny, were short sighted.

Best,
Sonny[/quote]

Thanks, Sonny.

No offense intended, none taken.

Sep 25, 2005 3:00 am

I guess FEMA did a good job during the last 20 hurricanes.

Maybe it was the new leadership? If this is the case what happened during the summer death spell in CHICAGO (late 90's heat)?

According to all in the pan handle (Florida) FEMA takes 3 days. It seems the state and local communities work together.

Of course Katrina in Mississippi was complete devistation. NO was a flood that resulted in monster problems. Now another flood. WOW.

Oct 3, 2005 9:09 pm

[quote=inquisitive] [quote=menotellname]

indytwo,

Unfortunately you haven't been here long enough to understand the mentality of certain folks on this forum.

The good thing is that they tend to reveal themselves (as you can see).

[/quote]

All of those shooting stories have proven to be false.

http://www.reason.com/links/links090605.shtml

Hey, who's down in New Ohrleahns shooting at rescue helicopters?



They are shooting at the people coming to help them. 
[/quote]

Oct 3, 2005 10:39 pm

[quote=menotellname][quote=inquisitive] [quote=menotellname]

indytwo,

Unfortunately you haven't been here long enough to understand the mentality of certain folks on this forum.

The good thing is that they tend to reveal themselves (as you can see).

[/quote]

All of those shooting stories have proven to be false.

http://www.reason.com/links/links090605.shtml

Hey, who's down in New Ohrleahns shooting at rescue helicopters?



They are shooting at the people coming to help them. 
[/quote]

[/quote]

I didn't see where the author took on the arrest we all read about for firing at a helicopter.

Oct 4, 2005 3:38 pm

[quote=mikebutler222][quote=menotellname][quote=inquisitive] [quote=menotellname]

indytwo,

Unfortunately you haven't been here long enough to understand the mentality of certain folks on this forum.

The good thing is that they tend to reveal themselves (as you can see).

[/quote]

All of those shooting stories have proven to be false.

http://www.reason.com/links/links090605.shtml

Hey, who's down in New Ohrleahns shooting at rescue helicopters?



They are shooting at the people coming to help them. 
[/quote]

[/quote]

I didn't see where the author took on the arrest we all read about for firing at a helicopter.

[/quote]

I never saw where your brief article said that somebody fired at a helicopter.  I seem to remember your article stating that apartment members "heard shots fired" and that a helipcopter was in the area.  Nobody "saw" the accused shooting at the helicopter.  Nor did the pilot(s) report being shot at.

Oct 4, 2005 3:57 pm

Like I told you dumbasses before...it ain't hard to shoot a big, slow moving helicopter, that is coming towards you.  The only way to miss is if you ARE NOT aiming at it.

 

*****************************************************

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/front/12802783.htm

Posted on Mon, Oct. 03, 2005

LOUISIANA

Shots at helicopters shrouded in a `fog'


Reports of gunshots aimed at rescue helicopters in New Orleans on Sept. 1 now appear to have been little more than rumors.

BY MIRIAM HILL AND NICHOLAS SPANGLER

[email protected]

NEW ORLEANS - Among the rumors that spread as quickly as floodwaters after Hurricane Katrina, reports that gunmen were taking potshots at rescue helicopters stood out for their senselessness.

On Sept. 1, as patients sweltered in hospitals without power and thousands of people remained stranded on rooftops and in attics, crucial rescue efforts were delayed as word of such attacks spread.

But more than a month later, representatives from the Air Force, Coast Guard, Department of Homeland Security and Louisiana Air National Guard say they have yet to confirm a single incident of gunfire at helicopters.

Likewise, members of several rescue crews who were told to halt operations say there is no evidence they were under fire.

To be sure, the streets of New Orleans posed real dangers in the days following Katrina. Many rescue workers said they heard gunfire; one doctor reports that shots came close enough to Charity Hospital that he heard the bullets hit.

RUMORS SWIRLED

But so many rumors were swirling that the facts still haven't been sorted out. A picture is emerging of heroic but harried rescue workers from dozens of organizations forced to make snap decisions with only slender threads of information and no reliable communications.

The storm created so much confusion that government officials cannot even agree on whether they ever issued an order to halt flights or other rescue efforts.

Sometimes the mere rumor that they had was enough.

On the morning of Sept. 1, Mike Sonnier was directing rescue helicopters at his company, Acadian Ambulance, when one of his pilots called to say the military had suspended flights after gunfire was reported in the air near the Louisiana Superdome.

Should he continue rescuing sick evacuees, leaving his pilots and medics at risk - or suspend his company's flights?

Sonnier immediately shut down flights.

''Until I can confirm that this did happen or didn't happen, it's not a chance that I can take,'' he said.

Sonnier said that when he checked with the National Guard about two hours later, he was told it was OK to fly. At that point Acadian resumed operations. Even today, it's not clear whether a military order to stop flying was ever actually made.

Reports persisted throughout the day of helicopters in the cross hairs, part of the image of a city under siege that was spreading across the nation.

''Hospitals are trying to evacuate,'' a Coast Guard spokeswoman at the city emergency operations center told The Associated Press. ``At every one of them, there are reports that as the helicopters come in, people are shooting at them.''

INITIAL REPORT

But that initial report proved hard to confirm. Two Coast Guard spokesmen who were asked in recent days about helicopter shootings said there were no incidents of any Coast Guard personnel or vehicles taking fire.

''We don't know of any shots ever fired directly at us,'' said Capt. Bob Mueller, commander of the Guard's New Orleans station. ``But there were a number of reports of shots fired in the air. There were two occasions where all helos were directed to land. I believe those orders came from the Superdome. Our flatboats did stand down Sept. 1.''

Lt. Pete Schneider, a spokesman for the National Guard, which was handling Superdome evacuations, said it was a civilian who told guardsmen in the area that shots had been fired. Schneider said flights continued despite the danger.

MIXED MESSAGES

But a spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security, which oversees the Federal Emergency Management Agency, contradicted that statement, saying Superdome flights were temporarily suspended because of gunfire.

The confusion affected more than just helicopter crews. Florida Task Force 1 was using boats to reach the stranded but not on Sept. 1.

RESCUES HINDERED

Because of reports of gunfire, a FEMA support team ordered the Florida task force to stop work for the entire day unless law enforcement protection could be found, task force leader Dave Downey said.

That help never came. Meanwhile, thousands of people were stuck in attics and on roofs of flooded houses in New Orleans.

''We had just had a very successful day before,'' when they rescued 400 people, said Downey, whose crew manned boats. ``It definitely slowed down our rescue efforts . . .

''In a rescue scenario, every hour that slips by makes the situation more complicated, and the chance for survival diminishes,'' he said.

FEMA sent mixed messages in recent days on whether rescue efforts were placed on hold.

''If, on the ground, if they were in middle of a search and they were being shot at, for safety reasons, they may have temporarily put that search on hold,'' said Deborah Wing, a FEMA spokeswoman in Washington.

Later, she said by e-mail that no operations were ever suspended, despite ``reports of gunfire.''

Some who were in New Orleans that day described moments of real peril. Tyler Curiel, a cancer doctor at Tulane University Hospital, said a sniper shot at him and his military escorts in the street as they evacuated patients from Tulane and Charity hospitals.

Curiel said the gunman was in a nearby parking deck shooting at Charity's emergency room about noon Sept. 1.

One month later, Downey, of Florida Task Force 1, isn't sure the decision to halt operations was the right one.

'You've heard of the `fog of war.' Well, in the fog of disaster response, sometimes information is sketchy, and you have to act on the information you have available at that time.''

Oct 4, 2005 4:04 pm

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tporleans/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nol a_tporleans/archives/2005_09_26.html

 

Monday, September 26, 2005


Rumors of deaths greatly exaggerated

Widely reported attacks false or unsubstantiated

6 bodies found at Dome; 4 at Convention Center


By Brian Thevenot
and Gordon Russell
Staff writers


After five days managing near-riots, medical horrors and unspeakable living conditions inside the Superdome, Louisiana National Guard Col. Thomas Beron prepared to hand over the dead to representatives of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.


Following days of internationally reported killings, rapes and gang violence inside the Dome, the doctor from FEMA - Beron doesn't remember his name - came prepared for a grisly scene: He brought a refrigerated 18-wheeler and three doctors to process bodies.

"I've got a report of 200 bodies in the Dome," Beron recalls the doctor saying.

The real total was six, Beron said.

Of those, four died of natural causes, one overdosed and another jumped to his death in an apparent suicide, said Beron, who personally oversaw the turning over of bodies from a Dome freezer, where they lay atop melting bags of ice. State health department officials in charge of body recovery put the official death count at the Dome at 10, but Beron said the other four bodies were found in the street near the Dome, not inside it. Both sources said no one had been killed inside.

At the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center, just four bodies were recovered, despites reports of corpses piled inside the building. Only one of the dead appeared to have been slain, said health and law enforcement officials.

That the nation's front-line emergency management believed the body count would resemble that of a bloody battle in a war is but one of scores of examples of myths about the Dome and the Convention Center treated as fact by evacuees, the media and even some of New Orleans' top officials, including the mayor and police superintendent. As the fog of warlike conditions in Hurricane Katrina's aftermath has cleared, the vast majority of reported atrocities committed by evacuees have turned out to be false, or at least unsupported by any evidence, according to key military, law enforcement, medical and civilian officials in positions to know.

"I think 99 percent of it is bulls---," said Sgt. 1st Class Jason Lachney, who played a key role in security and humanitarian work inside the Dome. "Don't get me wrong, bad things happened, but I didn't see any killing and raping and cutting of throats or anything. ... Ninety-nine percent of the people in the Dome were very well-behaved."

Dr. Louis Cataldie, the state Health and Human Services Department administrator overseeing the body recovery operation, said his teams were inundated with false reports about the Dome and Convention Center.

"We swept both buildings several times, because we kept getting reports of more bodies there," Cataldie said. "But it just wasn't the case."

Orleans Parish District Attorney Eddie Jordan said authorities had confirmed only four murders in New Orleans in the aftermath of Katrina - making it a typical week in a city that anticipated more than 200 homicides this year. Jordan expressed outrage at reports from many national media outlets that suffering flood victims had turned into mobs of unchecked savages.

"I had the impression that at least 40 or 50 murders had occurred at the two sites," he said. "It's unfortunate we saw these kinds of stories saying crime had taken place on a massive scale when that wasn't the case. And they (national media outlets) have done nothing to follow up on any of these cases, they just accepted what people (on the street) told them. ... It's not consistent with the highest standards of journalism."

As floodwaters forced tens of thousands of evacuees into the Dome and Convention Center, news of unspeakable acts poured out of the nation's media: evacuees firing at helicopters trying to save them; women, children and even babies raped with abandon; people killed for food and water; a 7-year-old raped and killed at the Convention Center. Police, according to their chief, Eddie Compass, found themselves in multiple shootouts inside both shelters, and were forced to race toward muzzle flashes through the dark to disarm the criminals; snipers supposedly fired at doctors and soldiers from downtown high-rises.

In interviews with Oprah Winfrey, Compass reported rapes of "babies," and Mayor Ray Nagin spoke of "hundreds of armed gang members" killing and raping people inside the Dome. Unidentified evacuees told of children stepping over so many bodies, "we couldn't count."

The picture that emerged was one of the impoverished, masses of flood victims resorting to utter depravity, randomly attacking each other, as well as the police trying to protect them and the rescue workers trying to save them. Nagin told Winfrey the crowd has descended to an "almost animalistic state."

Four weeks after the storm, few of the widely reported atrocities have been backed with evidence. The piles of bodies never materialized, and soldiers, police officers and rescue personnel on the front lines say that although anarchy reigned at times and people suffered unimaginable indignities, most of the worst crimes reported at the time never happened.

Military, law enforcement and medical workers agree that the flood of evacuees - about 30,000 at the Dome and an estimated 10,000 to 20,000 at the Convention Center - overwhelmed their security personnel. The 400 to 500 soldiers in the Dome could have been easily overrun by increasingly agitated crowds, but that never happened, said Col. James Knotts, a midlevel commander there. Security was nonexistent at the Convention Center, which was never designated as a shelter. Authorities provided no food, water or medical care until troops secured the building the Friday after the storm.

While the Convention Center saw plenty of mischief, including massive looting and isolated gunfire, and many inside cowered in fear, the hordes of evacuees for the most part did not resort to violence, as legend has it.

"Everything was embellished, everything was exaggerated," said Deputy Police Superintendent Warren Riley. "If one guy said he saw six bodies, then another guy the same six, and another guy saw them - then that became 18."


Soldier shot - by himself


Inside the Dome, where National Guardsmen performed rigorous security checks before allowing anyone inside, only one shooting has been verified. Even that incident, in which Louisiana Guardsman Chris Watt of the 527th Engineer Battalion was injured, has been widely misreported, said Maj. David Baldwin, who led the team of soldiers who arrested a suspect.

Watt was attacked inside one of the Dome's locker rooms, which he entered with another soldier. In the darkness, as he walked through about six inches of water, Watt was attacked with a metal rod, a piece of a cot. But the bullet that penetrated Watt's leg came from his own gun - he accidentally shot himself in the commotion. The attacker never took his gun from him, Baldwin said. New Orleans police investigated the matter fully and sent the suspect to jail in Breaux Bridge, Baldwin said.

As for other shootings, Baldwin said, "We actively patrolled 24 hours a day, and nobody heard another shot."

Doug Thornton, regional vice president of SMG, which manages the Dome, walked the complex from before the storm until the final evacuation and kept a meticulous journal. In a Sept. 9 interview, he said he heard reports of rapes and killings, but they were unconfirmed and came from evacuees and security officials.

"We walked through the facility every day, and we didn't see all this that was being reported," said Thornton, one of about 35 Dome employees who rode out Katrina in the building and lived there in the days after the storm hit. "We never felt threatened. It's hard to determine what's real and what's not real."


No victims


Inside the Convention Center, the rumors of widespread violence have proved hard to substantiate, as well, though the masses of evacuees endured terrifying and inhumane conditions.

Jimmie Fore, vice president of the state authority that runs the Convention Center, stayed in the building with a core group of 35 employees until Sept. 1, the Thursday after Katrina. He was appalled by what he saw. Thugs hotwired 75 forklifts and electric carts and looted food and booze from every room in the building, but he said he never saw any violent crimes committed, and neither did any of his employees. Some, however, did report seeing armed men roaming the building, and Fore said he heard gunshots in the distance on at about six occasions.

NOPD Capt. Jeff Winn's 20-member SWAT team responded on about 10 occasions to calls from the Convention Center, usually after reports of shots being fired. The group found people huddled in the fetal position, lying flat on the ground to avoid bullets or running for the exits. They also heard stories of gang rapes, armed robberies and other violent crimes, but no victims ever came forward while his officers were in the building, he said.

"What's true and what's not, we don't really know," he said.

Rumors of rampant violence at the Convention Center prompted Louisiana National Guard Lt. Col. Jacques Thibodeaux put together a 1,000-man force of soldiers and police in full battle gear to secure the center Sept. 2 at about noon.

It took only 20 minutes to take control, and soldiers met no resistance, Thibodeaux said. What the soldiers found - elderly people and infants near death without food, water and medicine; crowds living in filth - shocked them more than anything they'd seen in combat zones overseas. But they found no evidence, witnesses or victims of any killings, rapes or beatings, Thibodeaux said.

Another commander at the scene, Lt. Col. John Edwards of the Arkansas National Guard, said the crowd welcomed the soldiers. "It reminded me of the liberation of France in World War II. There were people cheering; one boy even saluted," he said. "We never - never once - encountered any hostility."

One widely circulated tale, told to The Times-Picayune by a slew of evacuees and two Arkansas National Guardsmen, held that "30 or 40 bodies" were stored in a Convention Center freezer. But a formal Arkansas Guard review of the matter later found that no soldier had actually seen the corpses, and that the information came from rumors in the food line for military, police and rescue workers in front of Harrah's New Orleans Casino, said Edwards, who conducted the review.

It's possible more than four people died at the Convention Center. Fore, the center's vice president, said he saw another body outside the building early in the first week after the storm, covered in a shroud on the pavement along Julia Street, near the back of the Convention Center. It's unclear whether that body ended up in the nearby food service entrance, where the four confirmed bodies were found later.

Also, several news organizations reported the body of 91-year-old Booker T. Harris, which sat covered in a chair on Convention Center Boulevard for several days after he died on the back of a truck while being evacuated.

Just one of the dead appeared to be the victim of foul play, said Winn, one of few law enforcement officers who spent any time patrolling the Convention Center before it was secured. Winn, who did the final sweep of the building, said one body appeared to have stab wounds, but he could not be sure. Baldwin also said only one of the dead appeared to have been slain, apparently referring to the same body as Winn described. Bob Johannessen, spokesman for the Department of Health and Hospitals, also confirmed just one suspected homicide at the Convention Center, though he said the victim had been shot, not stabbed.

A Washington Post report quoted another soldier who concluded that three of the four people appeared to have been beaten to death, including an older woman in a wheelchair.

But Spc. Mikel Brooks, an Arkansas Guardsman who said he wheeled the woman's dead body into the food service entrance, said she appeared to have died of natural causes. Brooks went on to say that the woman had expired sitting next to her husband, who shocked him by asking him to bring the wheelchair back.

The Post also cited evacuee Tony Cash and three other unnamed sources saying a young boy died of an asthma attack, but multiple officials could not confirm that death.


One attack thwarted


Reports of dozens of rapes at both facilities - many allegedly involving small children - may forever remain a question mark. Rape is a notoriously underreported crime under ideal circumstances, and tracking down evidence at this point, with evacuees spread all over the country, would be nearly impossible. The same goes for reports of armed robberies at both sites.

Numerous people told The Times-Picayune that they had witnessed rapes, in particular attacks on two young girls in the Superdome ladies room and the killing of one of them, but police and military officials said they know nothing of such an incident.

Soldiers and police did confirm at least one attempted rape of a child. Riley said a man tried to sexually assault a young girl, but was "beaten up" by civilians and apprehended by police. It was unclear if that incident was the one that gained wide currency among evacuees.

Baldwin, the National Guard commander of a special reaction team patrolling the Dome, also said he knew of only one attempted sexual assault of a child - but the details of his story, while similar, differed somewhat from that of Riley. It was unclear last week whether the two men spoke about the same incident.

Soldiers apprehended the assailant after a "commotion" in the bathroom exposed him, Baldwin said, but he knew nothing about the man being beaten. Furthermore, in a detail that raises questions about whether officials have full knowledge of any sex crimes, Baldwin said his men turned over one alleged child molester to New Orleans police - only to find him again inside the Dome two days later, reportedly attempting to molest other children.

"We ran into the same guy a couple days later," he said. "The crowd came to us and said, 'You better do something with this guy or we're going to do something with him.' ... That kind of re-confirmed (the first allegation), when the crowd came to us saying he was putting his hands on kids."

But other accusations that have gained wide currency are more demonstrably false. For instance, no one found the body of a girl - whose age was estimated at anywhere from 7 to 13 - who, according to multiple reports, was raped and killed with a knife to the throat at the Convention Center.

Many evacuees at the Convention Center the morning of Sept. 3 treated the story as gospel, and ticked off further atrocities: a baby trampled to death, multiple child rapes.

Salvatore Hall, standing on the corner of Julia Street and Convention Center Boulevard that day, just before the evacuation, said, "They raped and killed a 10-year-old in the bathroom."

Neither he nor the many people around him who corroborated the killing had seen it themselves.

Talk of rape and killing inside the Dome was so pervasive that it prompted a steady stream of evacuees to begin leaving Aug. 31, braving thigh-high foul waters on Poydras Street. Many said they were headed back to homes in flooded neighborhoods.

"There's people getting raped and killed in there," said Lisa Washington of Algiers, who had come to the Dome with about 25 relatives and friends. "People are getting diseases. It's like we're in Afghanistan. We're fighting for our lives right now."

One of her relatives nodded. "They've had about 14 rapes in there," he said.


The official word


In many cases, authorities gave credibility to portraits of violence broadcast around the world.

Compass told Winfrey on Sept. 6 that "some of the little babies (are) getting raped" in the Dome. Nagin backed it with his own tale of horrors: ''They have people standing out there, have been in that frickin' Superdome for five days watching dead bodies, watching hooligans killing people, raping people.''

But both men have since pulled back to a degree.

"The information I had at the time, I thought it was credible," Compass said, conceding his earlier statements were false. Asked for the source of the information, Compass said he didn't remember.

Nagin frankly acknowledged that he doesn't know the extent of the mayhem that occurred inside the Dome and the Convention Center - and may never.

"I'm having a hard time getting a good body count," he said.

Compass said rumors had often crippled authorities' response to reported lawlessness, sending badly needed resources to respond to situations that turned out not to exist. He offered his own intensely personal example: The day after the storm, he heard "some civilians" talking about how a band of armed thugs had invaded the Ritz-Carlton hotel and started raping women - including his 24-year-old daughter, who stayed there through the storm. He rushed to the scene only to find that although a group of men had tried to enter the hotel, they weren't armed and were easily turned back by police.

Compass, however, promulgated some of the unfounded rumors himself, in interviews in which he characterized himself and his officers as outgunned warriors taking out armed bands of thugs at every turn.

"People would be shooting at us, and we couldn't shoot back because of the families," Compass told a reporter from the (Bridgeport) Connecticut Post who interviewed him at the Saints' Monday Night Football game in New York, where he was the guest of NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue. "All we could do is rush toward the flash."

Compass added that he and his officers succeeded in wrestling 30 weapons from criminals using the follow-the-muzzle-flash technique, the story said.

"We got 30 that way," Compass was quoted as saying.

Asked about the muzzle-flash story last week, Compass said, "That really happened" to Winn's SWAT team at the Convention Center.

But Winn, when asked about alleged shootouts in a separate interview, said his unit saw muzzle flashes and heard gunshots only one time. Despite aggressively frisking a number of suspects, the team recovered no weapons. His unit never found anyone who had been shot.

Many soldiers and humanitarian workers now agree that although a number of bad actors committed violent or criminal acts, the evacuees responded well considering the hell they endured.

"These people - our people - did nothing wrong," said Sherry Watters of the state Department of Social Services, who was working with the medical unit at the Dome and noted the crowd's mounting frustration. "No human should have to live like that for even a minute."


Crowds pitch in


As the authorities finally mobilized buses to evacuate the Dome on Sept. 2, many evacuees were nearing the breaking point. Baldwin said soldiers could not have controlled the crowd much longer. They ejected a handful of people attempting to start a riot, screaming at soldiers and pushing crowds to revolt.

"We're not prisoners of war - y'all are treating us like evacuees and detainees!" he recalled one of them shouting.

But many others sought to quiet such voices. On the deck outside the Dome on Sept. 1, the day before buses arrived, preachers took it upon themselves to lead the agitated crowd in prayer and song.

"Everybody needs to help the soldiers," Baldwin recalled one of them saying. "We're all family here."

About 15 others joined the medical operation, as people collapsed from heat and exhaustion every few minutes, Baldwin said.

"Some of these guys look like thugs, with pants hanging down around their asses," he said. "But they were working their asses off, grabbing litters and running with people to the (New Orleans) Arena" next door, which housed the medical operation.

As the Dome cleared out Sept. 3, Beron, the National Guard commander, fashioned a plan to deal with the dead. He knew of the six bodies in the freezer, but expected far more. He and an Ohio National Guard commander sent 450 Ohio troops to search every nook of the Dome, top to bottom. They told them to mark locations of bodies on a map of the Dome, to rope off suspected crime scenes, and leave a chemical light sticks next to each one so they could be retrieved later.

"I fully expected to find more bodies, both homicides and natural causes," he said.

They found nothing.


Staff writers Jeff Duncan and Gwen Filosa contributed to this report.
Oct 4, 2005 4:12 pm

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/091505K.shtml 

   Timeline to Disaster
    By Farhad Manjoo, Page Rockwell and Aaron Kinney
    Salon.com

    Thursday 15 September 2005

Salon's hour-by-hour account of the worst natural disaster in US history - and how our government failed.

    On Aug. 23, the National Hurricane Center in Miami discovered a "disturbed" weather pattern forming off the southeastern coast of the Bahamas. Initially the weather system was dubbed a tropical storm, but it was quickly upgraded to a hurricane, one that sucker-punched south Florida. People there barely had enough time to learn its name - Katrina - before it slammed into the coast on Aug. 25, killing 11. "Where did this thing come from?" one incredulous Keys resident asked a local newspaper.

    After the hurricane moved past Florida into the Gulf of Mexico, it gathered strength. As officials tracked its direction and assessed its power, they knew that it posed a catastrophic threat to the Gulf Coast and to New Orleans. This situation could not possibly have come as a surprise. Officials had known for years that a major hurricane could devastate the region. Yet both before it made landfall and after it struck, the response at every level, but particularly the federal, was shockingly inadequate.

    Over the coming months and weeks, investigations by the media, lawmakers and independent experts will try to discover why the reaction to Katrina went as badly as it did. This timeline does not pretend to provide comprehensive answers. It aims only to lay out some of the crucial decisions and events during the critical time period.

    Much about the response to Katrina still remains shrouded in the fog of disaster. But several important themes emerge in this timeline.

    Every level of government failed, to one degree or another, in the aftermath of Katrina. But the lion's share of the blame must go to the highest level, the one that has ultimate responsibility: the federal government. Federal disaster planning was woefully inadequate: Command and control, essential to all disaster response, proved abysmal, and red tape snarled and slowed the response. When Katrina hit, federal officials were unconscionably ignorant of crucial developments, perfunctory and slow in their response, and unable or unwilling to take responsibility and make executive decisions.

    On Sunday, Aug. 28, the day before the storm made landfall, Michael Chertoff, the secretary of Homeland Security, and Michael Brown, then the director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, were briefed by the Hurricane Center on the possibility that Katrina would overwhelm New Orleans' levees. Although the levees failed on Monday, Chertoff and Brown did not apparently learn of the disaster until Tuesday. By Wednesday, the storm response had become a televised disaster, yet Chertoff, Brown and Bush did not seem to comprehend how badly the federal government had failed until at least Thursday evening or Friday morning (when Bush's aides showed him a homemade DVD of disaster footage so that he could understand what had happened).

    Kathleen Blanco, Louisiana's Democratic governor, was also far from blameless. While the federal mistakes seem born out of neglect, failure to plan and outright incompetence, most of Blanco's errors stem from her apparent inability to understand the technical aspects of managing a disaster - cutting through all the red tape.

    But if Blanco failed to cut through red tape, that still leaves the question why the red tape was there in the first place. In a disaster, provision should be made in advance for bypassing the jurisdictional issues and regulations that plagued the response to Katrina. Such planning is ultimately a federal responsibility. The Bush administration in general, and FEMA in particular, simply failed to plan for the chaos that would follow a disaster of this magnitude. That is a fundamental failure of governance, and it is inexcusable.

    While officials dithered and squabbled, while they issued increasingly unbelievable promises of aid being on the way, the people of New Orleans were left to suffer and, in many cases, to die. The timeline tells of their desperate straits, and how, under the spotlight of television cameras yet somehow hidden from officials, things went from bad to worse.

    Salon produced the following timeline of the events through Tuesday, Sept. 13, focusing on the period between Friday, Aug. 26, and Saturday, Sept. 3, after an extensive (but obviously far from comprehensive) examination of the public record. We looked at news stories, TV interviews, public proclamations and blog posts, and we conducted interviews with the officials involved. We're especially indebted to the work done by Think Progress, Josh Marshall's readers, the anonymous hordes who power Wikipedia, and reporters who assembled timelines for newspapers and wire services.

    We also welcome input from Salon readers. If you know of incidents - or your own personal stories - that you think ought to be included here, please let us know at [email protected].

    Friday, Aug. 26

    11:30 a.m. The National Hurricane Center issues a bulletin announcing that Hurricane Katrina is a Category 2 hurricane on the Saffir-Simpson scale. According to the bulletin, Katrina is "rapidly strengthening" as it moves west and "could become a category three of major hurricane on Saturday."

    5 p.m. Gov. Kathleen Blanco declares a state of emergency for the state of Louisiana, effective until Sunday, Sept. 5. "We are in the strike zone," she tells CNN.

    The governor's deputy press secretary, Roderick Hawkins, says the declaration "puts us on standby just in case we need to mobilize the National Guard." The announcement activates the state's emergency response and recovery program - which supports the evacuation of coastal areas as well as implements the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan - and launches preparations for providing emergency support services when the storm hits.

    Sometime on Friday, there is a discussion among FEMA officials about evacuating people in New Orleans who don't have cars. "We should be getting buses and getting people out of there," a FEMA employee named Leo V. Bosner will later tell the New York Times. But the discussions appear to go nowhere. Bosner will say: "We, as staff members at the agency, felt helpless. We knew that major steps needed to be taken fast, but, for whatever reasons, they were not taken." The question of buses - where they are and who will drive them - will ring out at every level of government over the next few days, with little resolution until late in the week.

    Saturday, Aug. 27

    5 a.m. The National Hurricane Center announces that Hurricane Katrina has become "a major hurricane," reaching Category 3 on the Saffir-Simpson scale, with wind speeds of 115 mph. "Some strengthening is forecast in the next 24 hours," it says. Katrina is moving west, but "a gradual turn toward the west-northwest is expected during the next 24 hours."

    Morning: In his weekly radio address, President Bush talks about Israel, Iraq and the greater Middle East. He does not mention Hurricane Katrina.

    St. Charles Parish, to the west of New Orleans, orders a mandatory evacuation, while New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin urges officials in Jefferson Parish, also to the west of New Orleans, to follow the state evacuation plan. Jefferson Parish officials later order a mandatory evacuation for low-lying areas, while Plaquemines Parish issues a call for a full mandatory evacuation.

    In a letter, Gov. Blanco asks President Bush to declare a federal state of emergency for Louisiana. The governor writes: "I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the state and affected local governments, and that supplementary federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster."

    Blanco estimates that the federal services - operating emergency shelters, evacuating coastal areas and performing search and rescue missions - will total $9 million. Meanwhile, Gov. Haley Barbour declares a state of emergency for Mississippi.

    Bush grants Blanco's request. The federal emergency declaration authorizes the Department of Homeland Security and the Federal Emergency Management Agency to coordinate hurricane relief efforts. "Specifically," the president's declaration states, "FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency. Debris removal and emergency protective measures, including direct federal assistance, will be provided at 75 percent federal funding."

    4 p.m. As part of Louisiana's evacuation procedure, state police set up "contraflow" on the state's highways, allowing traffic to move away from New Orleans on both sides of Interstate Highways 55, 59 and 10. The Louisiana National Guard begins pre-positioning equipment, personnel and supplies to areas near the coast, Lt. Col. Pete Schneider tells CNN.

    5 p.m. In a joint news conference with Blanco, Mayor Ray Nagin calls for a voluntary evacuation of New Orleans. "This is not a test," he says. "This is the real deal."

    Nagin says the Superdome will be available beginning Sunday morning as a refuge of last resort for those who can't get out of the city. He urges residents in low-lying areas of the city, such as Algiers and the 9th Ward, to begin evacuating. He says that he will wait until 30 hours before expected landfall of Katrina to issue an official order, as state guidelines recommend, but "we want you to take this a little more seriously and start moving - right now, as a matter of fact."

    8:30 p.m. Amtrak runs its last train out of New Orleans. The rail line had offered the city the train - which had room for hundreds - to use for evacuating people. But the city did not take Amtrak up on the offer, and the train leaves the station without any passengers.

    By Saturday evening the mayor's legal staff is looking into "whether he can order a mandatory evacuation of the city, a step he's been hesitant to do because of potential liability on the part of the city for closing hotels and other businesses," according to the Times-Picayune. The paper also reports that on Saturday night Nagin tells local station WWL-TV, "Come the first break of light in the morning, you may have the first mandatory evacuation of New Orleans."

    Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center, calls Mayor Nagin, Gov. Blanco and Gov. Barbour to reiterate the dangers posed by the storm. "I just wanted to be able to go to sleep that night knowing that I did all I could do," Mayfield says.

    Sunday, Aug. 28

    1 a.m. The National Hurricane Center announces that Hurricane Katrina has reached Category 4 and continues to move west-northwest, with a gradual turn to the northwest and possible strengthening expected later in the day.

    8 a.m. The hurricane center upgrades Katrina to Category 5, the highest possible rating on the Saffir-Simpson scale. Its report concludes: "Katrina is expected to be a devastating Category 4 or 5 at landfall."

    9:30 a.m. New Orleans Mayor Nagin and Louisiana Gov. Blanco hold a press conference to announce the first-ever mandatory evacuation of New Orleans. President Bush called Blanco at about 9 a.m. to discuss preparations for the storm and to encourage an evacuation. "I wish I had better news," Nagin says, "but we're facing the storm most of us have feared."

    11 a.m. Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center, holds a teleconference with officials at FEMA headquarters. FEMA director Michael Brown and Homeland Security secretary Michael Chertoff listen in on the briefings, according to the Times-Picayune and the Los Angeles Times. The information provided in the briefing is to be part of FEMA's daily briefings for President Bush.

    Katrina Advisory No. 23, issued at 10 a.m., is the focus of Mayfield's message to FEMA, according to Frank Lepore, a public affairs officer with the hurricane center. The advisory - titled "Potentially catastrophic Hurricane Katrina, even stronger, headed for Gulf Coast" - says the hurricane, now Category 5, is expected to hit within 24 hours and that "preparations to protect life and property should be rushed to completion." The warning includes reports from an Air Force Hurricane Hunter aircraft indicating that maximum sustained winds have reached nearly 175 mph. It predicts that a coastal storm surge of 18 to 22 feet above normal tide levels - "locally as high as 28 feet, along with large and dangerous battering waves" - will occur "near and to the east of where the center makes landfall."

    Mayfield's briefing to FEMA includes "warnings that Katrina's storm surge could overtop New Orleans' levees," the L.A. Times will report. "We were briefing them way before landfall," Mayfeld will tell the Times-Picayune. "It's not like this was a surprise. We had in the advisories that the levee could be topped." (Katrina Advisory No. 24, issued at 4 p.m. Sunday, mentions that possibility in the paragraph that begins "Coast storm surge flooding...")

    11:31 a.m. President Bush gives a televised address from his estate in Crawford, Texas. The president devotes about one-fourth of the speech to Hurricane Katrina before talking about the Iraqi constitution. Bush says he has spoken with Blanco earlier in the morning, as well as the governors of Alabama, Florida and Mississippi.

    Regarding the evacuation, Bush says: "We cannot stress enough the danger this hurricane poses to Gulf Coast communities. I urge all citizens to put their own safety and the safety of their families first by moving to safe ground. Please listen carefully to instructions provided by state and local officials."

    Throughout the day: Because between 35 and 40 percent of Louisiana's National Guard is on duty in Iraq, Gov. Blanco has fewer than 6,000 troops available for responding to Katrina. Over the weekend, she activates about 3,500 of them; by Monday, about 5,700 are ready.

    Realizing that the Louisiana National Guard is thinned by deployments in Iraq, New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson offers to send his own state Guard troops, an offer that Blanco accepts. But in order to send the troops, Blanco must issue a formal request to the National Guard Bureau in Washington; according to the Boston Globe, she makes that request on Tuesday. New Mexico's troops arrive only at the end of the week. It's unclear why Blanco's formal request comes so late; state officials will later tell reporters that the governor's office, overwhelmed in the first days of the storm, had trouble dealing with the legal complexities - red tape - required to bring in a national response. Because of the legal difficulties Blanco encounters in trying to bring in other troops, Guard units from other states just trickle in.

    Red tape appears to stand in the way of another critical issue on Sunday: evacuations. The Louisiana National Guard requests 700 buses from FEMA to evacuate people on the coast but receives only 100, again according to the Boston Globe. It's unclear why FEMA gave the Guard so few buses. A FEMA official later told the New York Times that it didn't offer Louisiana more buses because the state issued a formal request for buses only on Wednesday. In fact, state officials requested buses all through the week. It's unclear if they were asking in the right way. The state has not to date returned calls from Salon on this or any other matter.

    Bush also declares a federal state of emergency for Mississippi. Gov. Blanco sends a second letter (PDF) to President Bush, increasing the request for federal emergency assistance to $130 million.

    The Pentagon establishes Joint Task Force Katrina to coordinate the military response to the hurricane. The JTF's headquarters are in Mississippi, and Army Lt. Gen. Russel Honoré is put in command.

    At around noon, the Regional Transit Authority begins to send buses to 12 locations throughout New Orleans to transport people to the Superdome, one of 10 shelters operating in the city. About 550 members of the Louisiana National Guard provide security and distribute food and water at the Superdome, while the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary makes preparations to assist the Coast Guard in rescue operations once the storm passes.

    4:13 p.m. The National Hurricane Center issues a stark warning titled "Extremely dangerous Hurricane Katrina continues to approach the Mississippi River Delta; devastating damage expected."

    The report says: "Most of the area will be uninhabitable for weeks, perhaps longer. At least one half of well-constructed homes will have roof and wall failure ... The majority of industrial buildings will become non-functional. Partial to complete wall and roof failure expected. All wood framed low-rising apartment buildings will be destroyed. Concrete block low-rise apartments will sustain major damage, including some wall and roof failure. High-rise office and apartment buildings will sway dangerously, a few to the point of total collapse. All windows will blow out.

    "Airborne debris will be widespread and may include heavy items such as household appliances and even light vehicles. Sport utility vehicles and light trucks will be moved. The blown debris will create additional destruction. Persons, pets and livestock exposed to the winds will face certain death if struck.

    "Power outages will last for weeks, as most power poles will be down and transformers destroyed. Water shortages will make human suffering incredible by modern standards."

    6 p.m. As a curfew is imposed on the city of New Orleans, Molly's at the Market, a French Quarter bar known for ignoring hurricane warnings, closes its doors. "When they close, you know it's bad," says Bourbon Street resident Tip Andrews. "They never board up."

    By Sunday night, approximately 25,000 people have gathered at the Superdome. The Louisiana National Guard has stocked the arena with three trucks of water and seven trucks of meals ready to eat, enough for 15,000 people for three days, a Guard spokesman tells the Times-Picaynue.

    11:14 p.m. A New Orleans blogger named Kenneth Greelee, watching satellite images of the storm from his evacuation point in Galveston, Texas, writes: "There is a Schrödinger's Cat quality to watching the spinning red ball: does the New Orleans that I know even exist right now, hours before landfall?"

    Monday, Aug. 29

    6 a.m. Hurricane Katrina makes landfall at Buras, La., a bayou town 70 miles southeast of New Orleans. The storm, which had previously been heading directly toward New Orleans with wind speeds of 175 mph, appears to have granted the city a last-minute reprieve, relaxing to 145-mph and veering slightly to the east. In photographs, Buras appears to be completely destroyed.

    Over the next few hours, strong winds and rain pummel New Orleans, and tidal surges cause flooding in some parts. At 8:14, the National Weather Service issues a warning that a levee along the Industrial Canal - which holds back water from the 9th Ward and St. Bernard Parish, on the city's east - had been breached, and that 8 to 10 feet of flooding is expected. Mayor Nagin tells a local radio station that water is overwhelming the pump and levee system in the city's 9th Ward, and that some people may be stranded on their rooftops. Two large metal plates fly off the roof of the the Superdome, allowing rainwater to drip in. The Dome, where 25,000 people are holed up, loses electricity at around dawn; it runs on generator power, with lights dimmed and the air conditioning off.

    In an interview with CBS's "Early Show" just as the storm hits, FEMA director Brown says he's pleased with how city and state officials have prepared for the hurricane, and he promises aid will soon flow into affected areas. "I started jamming up those supply lines as fast and as downward as I could to be ready to respond to anything these governors might need," Brown says.

    Louisiana Gov. Blanco, also on "The Early Show," sounds satisfied with federal efforts. Bush's declaration of a federal emergency "allowed FEMA to come in here early," Blanco says. "We've set the stage for a lot of help for evacuation help, and the federal government is standing by. The president called. He was very supportive of our efforts. He was encouraging evacuation. He was very concerned. We appreciate his concern." In another interview on NBC, Blanco says, "I believe the water has breached the levee system, and is - is coming in," but does not suggest that New Orleans is facing possible doom. It's unclear exactly what Blanco knew about the situation with the levees, but levees breaching had long been the nightmare scenario, warned about for many years by experts.

    Neither does any federal official, including anyone at FEMA, express any concern about the levees.

    9 a.m. Katrina's eye passes to the east of New Orleans. Wind speeds are estimated at 135 mph, and the storm is heading out of town - toward the Mississippi coast - at a rate of about 15 mph.

    In New Orleans, flooding is reported in several places. The Times-Picayune - providing continuous updates on its blog - says that water has risen to over 6 feet in some parts of Orleans and St. Bernard parishes. The city's telephone and electric grids are failing.

    10:15 a.m. Mayor Nagin tells the "Today" show that his city is "still not out of the woods as it relates to that worst-case scenario," but that overall, "it looks as though everyone is pretty safe here - so just stay tuned to all the news reports and I'm sure that we're going to get through this OK." Nagin also says that the city has enough provisions for people to stay in the Superdome for "four to five days. And then if it has to extend beyond that, we're going to - we're basically counting on the federal government to supply us with what we need."

    11 a.m. FEMA director Brown arrives in Baton Rouge. It's around this time - five hours after the storm hits the coast - that Brown sends out his first alert to the Department of Homeland Security requesting extra personnel. The memo, to DHS secretary Michael Chertoff, does not express much urgency: Brown asks for 1,000 DHS staffers to come to disaster areas within two days, and 2,000 within seven days.

    Noon: At a town hall meeting at the Pueblo El Mirage RV Resort and Country Club in El Mirage, Ariz., President Bush says: "Our Gulf Coast is getting hit and hit hard. I want the folks there on the Gulf Coast to know that the federal government is prepared to help you when the storm passes. I want to thank the governors of the affected regions for mobilizing assets prior to the arrival of the storm to help citizens avoid this devastating storm ... When the storm passes, the federal government has got assets and resources that we'll be deploying to help you. In the meantime, America will pray - pray for the health and safety of all our citizens." Bush also mentions that he phoned DHS secretary Chertoff that morning - but the topic wasn't the hurricane, it was illegal aliens.

    The White House declares disaster areas in the affected regions of Alabama, Louisiana, and Mississippi. These declarations constitute a legal promise of financial aid to local governments: "For a period of up to 72 hours, Federal funding is available at 100 percent of the total eligible costs for emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance," the White House says.

    Meanwhile in Louisiana, it becomes clear to officials in St. Bernard Parish that the breach in the Industrial Canal levee is serious. The area floods almost immediately. Henry Rodriguez, the president of the parish, will later tell NPR, "It came up so fast, in about, I'd say, 30 minutes, we had eight feet of water on our first floor." On its Web site - in urgent red - the parish reports, "Estimated 40,000 Homes are flooded."

    2 p.m. The city confirms that another levee - this one along the 17th Street Canal, on the northwest side of the city - has failed. There are reports of flooding in the nearby Lakeview neighborhood. It's unclear when two levees along the London Avenue canal - the final two levees in the city to fail - actually succumb. Al Naomi, who manages New Orleans' levees for the Army Corps of Engineers, later tells the Times-Picayune that these two also probably fail sometime on Monday morning, meaning that by the time the storm leaves the city, New Orleans' critical levees have already been breached.

    Around 3 p.m. The storm subsides in the city, and it's difficult for residents, as well as the media, to assess how New Orleans has held up. Damage caused by the high winds - broken windows, downed trees and power lines, overturned cars - is widespread. Yet compared to what some officials and experts had been predicting - "Armageddon," as one meteorologist had told the New York Times - parts of the city, especially those of most interest to the media, appear to have come through the storm unscathed. The French Quarter, for instance, looks fine. Some people there gather outside bars to take in the breezy, beautiful weather.

    But officials monitoring the levees realize that disaster is about to strike. The Army Corp's Al Naomi calls the state emergency headquarters in Baton Rouge to inform officials of a catastrophic situation in the city. Water from the increasingly large breach in the levee at the 17th Street Canal - it ended up being 200 feet wide - is pouring out, flooding the city center. It is this breach that will inundate the city of New Orleans over the next day, eventually making it part of Lake Pontchartrain. But for reasons that aren't known, state officials do not heed his warning. Nobody sounds the alarm that the city may soon be flooded. Indeed, Mary Landrieu, Louisiana's Democratic senator, will later tell Newsweek that the mood in the state's headquarters wasn't one of panic. "We were saying, 'Thank you, God,' because the experts were telling the governor it could have been even worse."

    Meanwhile, communications failures hamper rescue and relief efforts. Radio channels are overwhelmed, cellphone networks are down, and police, fire and rescue workers are often unable to communicate with each other.

    By Monday evening, neither federal nor state officials appear to have registered the scale of the disaster. After a second Medicare speech in California, President Bush makes no public statement on what's happened in New Orleans. But he talks on the phone with Gov. Blanco, who said, "Mr. President, we need your help. We need everything you've got."

    Later, Blanco will be faulted for not specifying what exactly she needs - active-duty troops, who would be under the president's command, or more National Guard troops, whom she would direct. "She wouldn't know the 82nd Airborne from the Harlem Boys' Choir," Newsweek will quote a state official as saying. Blanco's vague request will prove to be a key part of a struggle between federal and state officials as the week progresses, one that contributes to the inadequate response.

    But if Blanco is vague, Bush is uninterested. Also from Newsweek: "There are a number of steps Bush could have taken, short of a full-scale federal takeover, like ordering the military to take over the pitiful and (by now) largely broken emergency communications system throughout the region. But the president ... went to bed."

    On television, Blanco and FEMA director Brown say they're concerned about flooding, but both seem to be referring to the early flooding in the city's east, not the flooding of the west and central areas caused by the massive breach in the 17th Street Canal. Brown reports that his aid teams are moving aid into the city, and Blanco tells about Coast Guard rescues of people stranded on rooftops. Neither one discusses looting, which has begun in some parts of the city.

    It's unclear whether either of them knows or understands the disaster posed by the breached levees. Communications on the ground are inadequate and the media was erratic and at times erroneous in its reporting on the levees. On TV, neither mentions that New Orleans - where waters are rising by a foot per hour in some parts - will soon be inundated.

    Tuesday, Aug. 30

    Early morning: Michael Chertoff, the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, will later say that he awakens to relatively positive news from the Gulf. "I remember on Tuesday morning picking up newspapers and I saw headlines, 'New Orleans Dodged the Bullet.'" It's only on Tuesday afternoon that Chertoff finally learns that "there was no possibility of plugging the gap [in the levees] and that essentially the lake was going to start to drain into the city." Other federal officials appear equally clueless about the danger posed by the levees. At a press conference Tuesday in Baton Rouge, Bill Lokey, a FEMA coordinator, says, "I don't want to alarm everybody that, you know, New Orleans is filling up like a bowl. That's just not happening."

    In fact, not a single newspaper headline says that New Orleans dodged a bullet, although some did say that New Orleans had avoided taking the brunt of the storm. The Times-Picayune (available only online after the storm knocked out its press) was far from reassuring. Its front page headline - - screams "CATASTROPHIC: LAKEVIEW LEVEE BREACH THREATENS TO INUNDATE CITY." (Here's a PDF of the front page).

    11 a.m. President Bush commemorates the 60th anniversary of V-J Day with a speech in San Diego. The speech focuses on Iraq; Bush compares his efforts there to FDR's with the Germans and the Japanese in WWII. Bush mentions the hurricane just once, saying that that federal, state and local officials are working side-by-side to rebuild the damaged areas. He does not indicate that he's aware of the possibility of catastrophic flooding.

    At a press briefing, spokesman Scott McClellan reports that the president has decided to cut short his vacation and leave for Washington on Wednesday in order to monitor federal hurricane relief efforts. McClellan does not suggest that anyone at the White House is aware of the flood problem.

    Afternoon: Crime and looting increase in New Orleans. Police officers - who report being completely cut off from their commanders - say they're powerless to stop the looters, who are stealing food, water and much else. The Times-Picayune, which is forced to evacuate its main city newsroom during the day, spots "one New Orleans cop who loaded a shopping cart with a compact computer and a 27-inch flat screen television." One store's entire gun collection is taken. New Orleans City Council president Oliver Thomas worries that the looting will prompt widespread anarchy in the city. "Some people broke into drug stores and stole the drugs off the shelves. It is looting times five. I'm telling you, it's like Sodom and Gomorrah," he says. One office is shot in the head by looters; he survives.

    It's unclear how many National Guard units are in the city at this point. Throughout the state, about 6,000 were available for Katrina response. Observers of the anarchy say that there are clearly too few troops.

    6:30 p.m. The Army Corps of Engineers' efforts to fix the city's breached levees have failed, Mayor Nagin tells a local radio station. At a press conference, he estimates that 80 percent of the city is underwater, and he warns that some areas remaining dry may also soon flood.

    Nagin urges people to leave the city, but for many, especially the mostly black residents of the city's poor neighborhoods, getting out is impossible. Many of these people, thought to number close to 100,000, do not have cars, and no public or emergency transportation is available. Instead, they flee - sometimes trudging through miles of water - to the Superdome, where the population swells to more than 25,000.

    The situation at the hot and fetid Superdome is deteriorating rapidly. After a tour there, Gov. Blanco calls conditions "very, very desperate." The toilets have stopped working, and people are concerned for their safety, as there are some people at the Dome "who do not have any regard for others." Blanco urges an evacuation of the Dome, but outlines no plans for how or when such an evacuation will occur.

    One plan is to move people to Houston's Astrodome, but officials lack enough buses for the large-scale evacuation. Louisiana officials demand more buses from FEMA; FEMA grants the request. But for reasons that aren't yet clear, the buses don't come. "We'd call and say: 'Where are the buses?' " Col. Jeff Smith, of Louisiana's Homeland Security Department, will tell the Washington Post. "They have a tracking system and they'd say: 'We sent 349.' But we didn't see them."

    To accommodate people escaping their flooded homes and hotel rooms, city officials also open the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center and tell residents to collect there for shelter. But there appears to be little awareness among federal and state officials, or the news media, of this plan. No count of the population at the convention center is available, and it's unclear whether any plans exist to provide food, water, medical attention or buses to the center.

    A similar situation exists at an overpass of Interstate 10, where rescue helicopters have been dropping people they've collected from rooftops. The official plan for the convention center - whose plan it is to use the place as a designated shelter, and who is responsible for keeping it safe and secure - is, at this point, not known.

    On CNN, Nagin says his city is "actively working on a plan to relocate those individuals to a much better facility, but unfortunately in the city of New Orleans, with 80-plus percent of it under water, we don't have a lot of options locally." He estimates that people will remain at the Superdome for at least a week. Nagin also says that he wishes that the more than 3,000 Louisiana National Guard troops who are stationed in Iraq were available to help in his city.

    Wednesday, Aug. 31

    Morning: Gov. Blanco appears on several morning news shows to say that the most pressing matter for New Orleans is to find a way to move 20,000 people from the Superdome out of the city. Conditions at the Superdome have become, by this time, deplorable. The New York Times will report, "By Wednesday the stink was staggering. Heaps of rotting garbage in bulging white plastic bags baked under a blazing Louisiana sun on the main entry plaza, choking new arrivals as they made their way into the stadium after being plucked off rooftops and balconies. The odor billowing from toilets was even fouler. Trash spilled across corridors and aisles, slippery with smelly mud and scraps of food." The Los Angeles Times will note of conditions there: "At least two people, including a child, have been raped. At least three people have died, including one man who jumped 50 feet to his death, saying he had nothing left to live for."

    Blanco issues an emergency proclamation allowing the state to commandeer school buses to evacuate people (PDF). On CNN, she says state and federal officials are looking into various ways to clear the Dome - the government may use buses, boats or helicopters. Blanco says she does not know where the evacuees will be moved to. One idea is to house people on cruise ships docked around the Gulf. Another is to look for small shelters throughout the region. "This is something we have to work with FEMA on," she says. "You know, we don't have any answers right now on what we will do with folks once we stabilize the situation. We're in a crisis mode. And we simply have to move people and get them to safe ground. I think that's what we have to do right now."

    The Bush administration dispatches four Navy ships to the Gulf. The ships, which are docked in Virginia, are expected to arrive in the affected region by the weekend. The administration also decides to release oil from the strategic reserve in order to keep down gasoline prices.

    On his way back from Crawford, Bush surveys hurricane damage from the window of Air Force One. When he gets back to Washington, Blanco calls him and asks for more help: She wants 40,000 troops. The request sparks a discussion in the administration over the question of federalizing the effort. By law, active-duty troops aren't allowed to perform domestic law-and-order functions; they can only do so if Blanco signs over control of the effort to the federal government, or if Bush usurps her power by invoking the Insurrection Act.

    In Washington, Steven Blum, the chief of the National Guard, looks into ways to bring more Guard into the region. He holds a videoconference with Guard generals across the devastated region, and arranges for 3,000 troops to come into New Orleans over the next 24 hours, according to the Washington Post.

    8 a.m. Emergency generators at two New Orleans hospitals - Charity Hospital and University Hospital - run out of fuel. About 350 patients and 1,000 staff and others are holed up in the hospitals; it's unclear how or when they will leave the city, doctors say.

    10 a.m. FEMA and Blanco announce an evacuation plan for New Orleans. People at the Superdome and other shelters in the city will be bused in convoys to Houston's Astrodome, they say. About 475 buses have been secured for the evacuation. Officials give no indication of when the buses will arrive, but they estimate that the operation will take two days or less.

    Midday: Maj. Gen. Don Riley of the Corps of Engineers tells the Times-Picayune that water levels in the city and Lake Pontchartrain have equalized, causing floodwaters to level off in the city. New Orleans has essentially become a part of the lake. Water levels in the city will rise and fall with the tides, he says. The Corps is attempting to fix the 17th Street Canal levee by filling the breach with sandbags, but the Corps does not have enough slings - which hold sandbags in place while they're being transported by helicopters - to finish the job. At this point, though, the efforts aren't very urgent; even if the levees are fixed, officials are estimating that it will take months to pump the city free of water.

    4:11 p.m. After meeting with members of his Cabinet, President Bush makes his first public statement acknowledging the scale of the disaster. "The vast majority of New Orleans, Louisiana, is under water," he says. "Tens of thousands of homes and businesses are beyond repair. A lot of the Mississippi Gulf Coast has been completely destroyed. Mobile is flooded. We are dealing with one of the worst natural disasters in our nation's history." Bush says that buses are moving in to evacuate people from the Superdome. He spends a great deal of the speech listing resources the federal government has provided, including "400 trucks to move 1,000 truckloads containing 5.4 million meals ready to eat, or MREs, 13.4 million liters of water, 10,400 tarps, 3.4 million pounds of ice, 144 generators, 20 containers of pre-positioned disaster supplies, 135,000 blankets and 11,000 cots." Bush adds: "And we're just starting." It is unclear how many of these provisions are making it into affected areas.

    Late afternoon: Mayor Ray Nagin orders 1,500 city policemen - the bulk of the force - to abandon search-and-rescue efforts and instead fight the increasing lawlessness in the city. Looting in the city is widespread. At one Rite-Aid drugstore, a group uses a forklift to break open the place, allowing in "a steady stream of looters, many wheeling shopping carts, to stock up, primarily with food, candy, any soft drink or water or alcohol, and cigarettes," a Times-Picayune reporter writes. Such incidents are reported all over the city.

    The city's descent into disorder is epitomized by the scene at the convention center, which the news media begins reporting on late in the day. Reporters on scene estimate that more than 3,000 people are there, but more are coming in all the time, as officials around the city are telling people that the convention center has food and, importantly, buses to evacuate people.

    In fact, people at the center are stranded, starving, and seemingly forgotten about by the authorities. There is a dead body in a lawn chair outside the center - the body of Booker Harris, a 91-year-old man who was dropped off there with his wife Allie, 93.

    Booker's body is visible to all, including TV news correspondents, who flock to the place. "I mean, this convention center is right in the heart of downtown. I mean, picture any downtown where - any city you live, Main Street, wherever. The main building, there's a dead body that has been sitting out there for two days. They put a blanket over him," CNN correspondent Chris Lawrence reports. Lawrence also says, "These people are hungry. They're tired. They've got nowhere to go. They've got no answers, and they've got no communication whatsoever. And the officer said, when night comes - I'm watching the sun dip behind the buildings right now, he was very afraid - he said, 'I don't know which night it's going to break, but these people have a breaking point. And I'm scared to see what happens when they reach that point.'"

    Despite the televised scenes, there is no public response - from state, local or federal authorities - to the disaster there.

    7 p.m. After a day of shopping for pricey shoes, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice attends a performance of the Monty Python musical "Spamalot!" She is reportedly booed by some in the audience.

    Evening: FEMA director Michael Brown appears on a slate of news shows, declaring that contrary to what people have been seeing on TV, storm victims are being helped in New Orleans. Larry King asks Brown, "All of our correspondents, other people telling our correspondents that they're frustrated, they're angry, they're mad at the government, state, federal. They're not getting enough. And they're saying where is the help. So where is the help?"

    "Larry, the help is right there," Brown says. "And it's going to be moving in very, very rapidly. I'm going to ask the country to be patient ... And I must say this storm is much, much bigger than anyone expected." Moments later Brown appears to contradict himself when he says that his agency has long anticipated that a hurricane hitting New Orleans would be one of the worst possible disasters. "We planned for it two years ago. Last year, we exercised it. And unfortunately this year, we're implementing it."

    Brown promises that relief will arrive tomorrow. "That help is there. We have an agreement with [Defense] Secretary [Donald] Rumsfeld. the president has stepped in. We're going to have air-lifting commodities in. We're going to have those caravans moving tonight. So tomorrow you're going to see that relief." The claim will prove largely false.

    Thursday, Sept. 1

    7 a.m. In an interview with ABC's Diane Sawyer, President Bush says that the federal government's evacuation effort is well under way, and that a "major transportation lift" is already getting people out of the Superdome. He does not mention - nor is he asked about - evacuation plans for the New Orleans convention center, where more than 20,000 people are now stranded without food, water, medical attention or security.

    The New York Times will later report that Bush only learns that there are people at the convention center around the time of his interview with Sawyer. Bush finds out about the convention center in an unusual way - from a wire service news report that an aide hands to him. Aides will tell the Times that the report angers Bush, because Michael Chertoff, the secretary of Homeland Security, had not mentioned the convention center in a morning briefing to Bush. Neither Chertoff nor his subordinate, FEMA director Michael Brown, are aware of the situation there. Brown, responsible for all federal disaster relief, will later say that he does not learn that the convention center is being used as a shelter until sometime on Thursday, two days after the city first opened the center for evacuees, and a day after scenes from the convention center dominated TV news.

    In his chat with Sawyer, Bush suggests that federal government was surprised by the scope of the storm damage. "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees," he says. "They did anticipate a serious storm. These levees got breached, and as a result, much of New Orleans is flooded and now we're having to deal with it and will." In fact, long before the hurricane struck land, many experts and officials - including the Hurricane Center's Mayfield and Mayor Nagin - warned that the levees were vulnerable.

    Morning: Authorities suspend evacuations at the Superdome - evacuations that had only just begun - due to what they call increasing unrest outside the arena, including reports of weapons fire at rescue helicopters and fires deliberately set in the path of buses. Lawlessness in the city is hampering rescue efforts all over, officials say. More than 28,000 National Guard troops have been called up to the city, but there are far fewer actually in the area - between 8,000 and 13,000. Only a few hundred Guardsmen are present at the Superdome.

    Observing the situation at the Superdome, Terry Ebbert, who heads New Orleans' emergency operations, tells the Associated Press: "This is a national disgrace. FEMA has been here three days, yet there is no command and control. We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims, but we can't bail out the city of New Orleans. We have got a mayor who has been pushing and asking, but we're not getting supplies."

    Midday: President Bush has lunch with Federal Reserve chairman Alan Grenspan to discuss the economic impact of the storm. Later, he holds a press conference with two former presidents, his father and Bill Clinton, whom he has asked to lead an effort to raise private money for hurricane relief. At a press briefing, spokesman Scott McClellan is asked if Bush is satisfied with the government's response to the hurricane. "This is not a time to get into any finger pointing or politics or anything of that nature," McClellan says. "This is a time to make sure all our resources available are focused where they need to be, and that is on the people who have been displaced or the people who have been otherwise affected by this natural disaster. And that's exactly what we're doing."

    At a press conference, Homeland Security secretary Chertoff insists that his department has the situation in New Orleans under control. "The fact of the matter is, the Superdome is secure," he says. "Understandably, there are crowd-control issues. People are anxious, they're impatient, they're hot, they're tired, they want to get someplace else. That is more than understandable." Chertoff says people there are safe and their evacuation is imminent. In fact, conditions at the Superdome are described as chaotic and dangerous. Chertoff does not mention the convention center.

    At almost exactly the same time, Mayor Ray Nagin sends out "a desperate SOS" on CNN. "Right now we are out of resources at the convention center and don't anticipate enough buses," Nagin says. "We need buses. Currently the convention center is unsanitary and unsafe and we're running out of supplies."

    The network runs a montage of graphic scenes from the convention center, including pictures of several dead bodies. Chris Lawrence, a CNN correspondent, reports, "We spent the last few hours at the convention center, where there are thousands of people just laying in the street. They have nowhere to go. These are mothers. We saw mothers. We talked to mothers holding babies. I mean, some of these babies, 3, 4, 5 months old, living in these horrible conditions. Putrid food on the ground, sewage, their feet sitting in sewage. We saw feces on the ground. It is - these people are being forced to live like animals." People at the convention center tell Lawrence that National Guard troops have driven by and tossed small amounts of food to them. But most people are hungry and thirsty. " Lawrence says: "What these people are saying basically is, 'Give us some water, give us some food. Don't leave us here to die. Or get us out of here.' They're saying, "We're stuck here. We can't leave. They don't send the buses. They won't take us out of here. And yet they won't come in with truckloads of water and food to feed us.'"

    The American Red Cross will later explain to Salon that the convention center is not being serviced by the agency because, sometime during the week, the Louisiana Homeland Security Department - that is, the office under Gov. Blanco - tells the agency not to "come back into New Orleans following the hurricane." Louisana officials have not responded to Salon's request for an explanation of this order. According to the Red Cross, the Homeland Security Department had been worried that a Red Cross presence in the city would "keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city."

    Evening: On NPR, anchor Robert Siegel asks secretary Chertoff several times about reports that tens of thousands of people are starving at the convention center. Chertoff dismisses such reports. He says, "You know, the one thing about an episode like this is if you talk to someone and you get a rumor or you get someone's anecdotal version of something, I think it's dangerous to extrapolate it all over the place." Siegel insists that reporters from NPR and other organizations have personally witnessed the horrors at the convention center. But Chertoff refuses to believe Siegel.

    On NBC, Brian Williams asks FEMA director Michael Brown why FEMA isn't doing an airdrop of food and water to the convention center. " Brian, it's an absolutely fair question," Brown says. "The federal government just learned about those people today. And I've got to tell you, we are moving heaven and earth to get pallets of food and water to those people."

    Later on "Nightline," when Brown again says that the federal government only learned of the convention center on Thursday, Ted Koppel asks, "Don't you guys watch television? Don't you guys listen to the radio? Our reporters have been reporting about it for more than just today." Brown says, "We learned about it factually today that that's what existed."

    At a press conference, Gov. Blanco criticizes House Speaker Dennis Hastert, who earlier in the day said it might not make sense to rebuild New Orleans. It's "unthinkable," Blanco says, that Hastert would "kick us when we're down." Blanco also warns "hoodlums" in New Orleans: National Guard troops in the city, she says, "have M-16s and they are locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot to kill ... and I expect they will."

    Late Thursday night, in an interview with WWL-AM radio in New Orleans, Mayor Nagin sharply criticizes how state and federal officials have handled the hurricane response. Referring to Gov. Blanco's earlier press conference - in which the governor said 40,000 National Guard troops were heading in to help Louisiana - Nagin said: "I don't want to see anybody do anymore goddamn press conferences. Put a moratorium on press conferences. Don't do another press conference until the resources are in this city. And then come down to this city and stand with us when there are military trucks and troops that we can't even count. Don't tell me 40,000 people are coming here. They're not here. It's too doggone late. Now get off your asses and do something, and let's fix the biggest goddamn crisis in the history of this country."

    Friday, Sept. 2

    4:35 a.m. A series of explosions at a chemical storage facility shakes New Orleans. The blasts occur east of the French Quarter, near the Mississippi River, but vibrations can be felt all the way downtown. Witnesses say the explosions illuminate the predawn sky, and that a cloud of acrid black smoke hangs over the area. Officials emphasize that the smoke is not toxic, but nevertheless order that the surrounding area be evacuated.

    8:05 a.m. Taking reporters' questions on the south lawn of the White House, President Bush acknowledges that although "a lot of people are working hard to help those who have been affected" by Hurricane Katrina, "the results are not acceptable." He then leaves Washington for an approximately six-hour air tour of the devastated coastal areas of Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana. Bush's tour will make several stops, including one at the ongoing repair of the 17th Street Canal breach in New Orleans, but will bypass more troubled sites like the convention center, the Supderdome and the makeshift trauma center at the city's Louis Armstrong New Orleans International Airport. On the flight down to the Gulf Coast, Bush catches up on the catastrophe by watching a DVD of hurricane news coverage that presidential aide Dan Bartlett has compiled to help the reality sink in.

    Also around this time, commercial airlines begin assisting the evacuation effort by airlifting refugees from the New Orleans airport. Most major U.S. airlines participate, including American, Continental, Delta, JetBlue, Southwest and United. FEMA issues a statement saying it will oversee the evacuation; at least at first, evacuees will go to San Antonio's Lackland Air Force Base.

    10:35 a.m. Bush holds a press briefing at the Mobile Regional Airport in Mobile, Ala. In a four-minute speech, he praises the rescue and relief efforts of the Coast Guard, the governors of the affected states, and FEMA director Brown: "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job." Bush also says: "The good news is - and it's hard for some to see it now - that out of this chaos is going to come a fantastic Gulf Coast, like it was before. Out of the rubbles of Trent Lott's house - he's lost his entire house - there's going to be a fantastic house. And I'm looking forward to sitting on the porch."

    At another stop in Biloxi, Miss., Bush backs off a from his earlier statement that the results were "not acceptable": "I am satisfied with the response. I'm not satisfied with all the results," he clarifies.

    12:49 p.m. Congress passes an emergency measure providing $10.5 billion for Hurricane Katrina rescue and relief efforts, which the president promises to sign upon his return to Washington that evening. But Rep. Karen Carter, a Democrat whose district includes New Orleans' French Quarter, tells reporters the region needs transportation help more than it needs cash: "Don't give me your money. Don't send me $10 million today. Give me buses and gas. Buses and gas. Buses and gas. If you have to commandeer Greyhound, commandeer Greyhound ... If you don't get a bus, if we don't get them out of there, they will die."

    Midday: A convoy of National Guard troops arrives in the city, and a thousand troops are dispatched to the convention center to deliver food and water and provide much-needed security to an estimated 20,000 evacuees. Some people there cheer the arrival of supplies, while others are upset that the Guard lacks the one thing many people need - buses to leave.

    Evacuation of the Superdome resumes, with an estimated 8,000 to 10,000 people standing in 100-plus degree heat and wading through knee-deep trash to board buses. Seven hundred evacuees who have been staying at a neighboring Hyatt hotel are allowed to board the buses before Superdome evacuees, reportedly so that the Hyatt can be prepared to house emergency workers. Given that conditions in the Hyatt were less dangerous and more sanitary than those in the Superdome, National Guard Capt. John Pollard calls the decision to let the Hyatt evacuees go first "very poor."

    After being postponed due to gunshots on Thursday, evacuations of the beleaguered New Orleans Charity Hospital and Louisiana State University Hospital resume and are completed: more than 600 people, including 110 patients, are evacuated from University Hospital, and about 2,200 people, including 363 patients, are evacuated from Charity Hospital. Three terminally ill patients die during the Charity Hospital evacuation; flooding of its morgue hamper efforts to ascertain how many bodies are inside. Conditions at Charity, which has been without power since Monday and without water since Tuesday, are said to be desperate.

    Remaining staff and patients at Tulane University, Methodist and Kindred hospitals are also evacuated.

    In Houston, Mayor Bill White announces that, with 15,000 evacuees inside, the city's Astrodome is full. The city opens the Reliant Center, which will hold another 11,000 evacuees. A total of 22,000 evacuees have taken refuge in Houston so far. Meanwhile, First Lady Laura Bush tours another evacuation center, the Cajundome in Lafayette, La., where approximately 6,000 refugees are sheltered. During a press briefing, she remarks, "This doesn't really look like what we're seeing on television."

    President Bush, along with Sen. Mary Landrieu, visits the 17th Street Canal breach in New Orleans, where sheet piling has stopped the flooding into the city. For security reasons, all air traffic in the area is grounded until Bush departs; three tons of food intended for delivery by helicopter to evacuees in St. Bernard Parish and Algiers Point are delayed on the Crescent City Connection bridge until nightfall.

    Gov. Blanco takes several official actions on the relief effort. She sends Bush an open letter reiterating her previous requests for many things, including "an additional 40,000 troops; trailers of water, ice and food; commercial buses; base camps; staging areas; amphibious personnel carriers; deployable morgues; urban search and rescue teams; airlift; temporary housing; and communications systems." The letter additionally requests "the expeditious return of the Headquarters of the 256th Brigade Combat Team as they have completed their mission in the Iraqi theatre of operations and they are urgently needed here at home." Also on Blanco's list of requests: an operating base for relief efforts in Baton Rouge, additional radio frequencies and tower crews to help restore cellphone service and public safety communication throughout the state, aerial and ground firefighters, a fleet of military vehicles, 175 generators, and public-health and livestock assistance.

    Blanco emphasizes that state and local authorities cannot complete relief and rescue efforts without help: "Mr. President, only your personal involvement will ensure the immediate delivery of federal assets needed to save lives that are in jeopardy hour by hour."

    The Bush administration does not respond specifically to these requests, but in his meeting with Blanco later in the day, Bush is reported to promise more resources.

    In a press briefing, White House spokesman Scott McClellan says that bringing troops back from Iraq is not necessary because there are enough National Guard units at home to handle the situation.

    Blanco also issues an executive order declaring a state of public health emergency and suspending Louisiana medical licensing requirements for out-of-state doctors and medical personnel providing emergency treatment, provided that those doctors and personnel prove that they are licensed in their home states. Because practicing medicine without a license is a crime carrying severe penalties, out-of-state doctors have been barred from volunteering their services in the wake of the hurricane; this belated order finally allows volunteer doctors to begin providing treatment.

    Finally, Blanco issues a second executive order authorizing the state Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness to commandeer all school buses for evacuation purposes, replacing a similar but less comprehensive order she issued on Wednesday. The order suspends the requirement that bus drivers have commercial driver's licenses, apparently in response to reports that many licensed bus drivers are unwilling to drive into lawless parts of New Orleans.

    Members of the Congressional Black Caucus hold a news conference blasting the federal response and charging that it was due to indifference to New Orleans' poor population.

    5:01 p.m. Before departing the region for Washington, President Bush makes another statement to the press from the tarmac at the New Orleans airport. He thanks relief workers and reassures residents of several southern Louisiana parishes that "people are paying attention to them." He also reminisces about his party days in New Orleans, when he says he visited the city "to enjoy myself - occasionally too much."

    While still on the airport tarmac, Bush invites Louisiana Sen. Landrieu, Gov. Blanco, and New Orleans Mayor Nagin aboard for a meeting. If there are tensions between Bush and Nagin - given Nagin's candid radio interview from the previous night - neither man shows it. Bush invites Nagin to take his first shower in five days aboard the plane. Nagin says of meeting Bush, "He was brutally honest. He wanted to know the truth ... And we talked turkey. I think we're in a good spot now."

    On board, Bush also asks Blanco to request a federal takeover of Louisiana's National Guard forces. The move would allow the federal government to exert unified control over all of the forces in the state, both active duty as well as National Guard. Federal officials believe such unified control will improve the efficiency of the hurricane response operation. Some state officials are suspicious of this request, fearing that once the federal government takes over, Bush officials will be free to blame all previous problems on state mismanagement. Blanco asks Bush for some time to think about his request.

    Administration officials will later say that Bush lawyers determined that they could wrest the mission away from Blanco without her consent by invoking the Insurrection Act, but political worries prevented them from doing so. "Can you imagine how it would have been perceived if a president of the United States of one party had preemptively taken from the female governor of another party the command and control of her forces, unless the security situation made it completely clear that she was unable to effectively execute her command authority and that lawlessness was the inevitable result?" an unnamed aide rhetorically asks the New York Times.

    Late afternoon: A bus carrying an estimated 50 Superdome evacuees overturns on the highway 130 miles west of New Orleans, killing one passenger and injuring at least 17 others. Police say the crash was a result of a struggle between a passenger and the bus driver, but one of the bus's passengers says there was no struggle and that the driver just wasn't looking at the road. FEMA director Brown announces that, as of Friday afternoon, 7,000 people have been rescued from rooftops and flooded regions by Urban Search and Rescue forces and Coast Guard teams. Some 15,000 people have been evacuated from the Superdome to the Astrodome in Houston; evacuations to Kelly Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, continue. Additionally, Brown estimates that 2,000 patients have been evacuated from the trauma center at the New Orleans airport.

    At NBC's celebrity-studded Concert for Hurricane Relief Friday night, singer Kanye West expresses his outrage at the slow pace of the federal response, saying, "George Bush doesn't care about black people."

    Shortly before midnight: The White House sends Gov. Blanco a legal memorandum formalizing its proposal that she request a federal takeover of the mission to evacuate New Orleans.

    Saturday, Sept. 3

    Early morning: The Superdome is mostly evacuated. Lt. Kevin Cowan, of Louisiana's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness, estimates that 2,000 people remain in the Superdome, though a spokesperson for the Texas Air National Guard says the figure could be as high as 5,000. Air-conditioned buses are diverted to the convention center to begin evacuating the nearly 25,000 refugees housed there. The National Guard reports that it has served approximately 70,000 meals at the convention center already and has supplies to serve 130,000 more.

    9:06 a.m. President Bush reads his weekly radio address from the White House Rose Garden, an unusual spectacle. Bush says he is sending more than 7,000 active-duty troops to the region devastated by the hurricane in the next 72 hours. The active-duty troops - which will come from Army's 82nd Airborne from Fort Bragg, N.C., 1st Cavalry Division from Fort Hood, Texas, and the Marines' 1st and 2nd Expeditionary forces from Camp Pendleton, Calif., and Camp Lejeune, N.C. - will join 4,000 active-duty troops already in the region. The Pentagon announces that an additional 10,000 National Guard forces will be deployed to the region, bringing the number of Guard in the area to about 40,000.

    Throughout the day: Gov. Blanco declines Bush's offer of a federal takeover for Louisiana's National Guard. This leaves Blanco in charge of all Guard troops in the region and will prohibit active-duty troops from maintaining law and order. Instead, she hires James Lee Witt, who served as the head of FEMA under President Clinton and who has previously criticized the decision to have FEMA report to the Homeland Security Department, to help direct Louisiana's hurricane relief efforts.

    DHS secretary Chertoff, along with Bush aides Housing Secretary Alphonso Jackson and White House domestic policy advisor Claude Allen, holds a two-hour meeting with members of the Congressional Black Caucus to discuss the roles of race and poverty in the federal government's hurricane relief efforts. Also in attendance are NAACP president Bruce Gordon and National Urban League president Marc Morial, a former mayor of New Orleans.

    Evacuation of the Superdome resumes and is completed. Members of the Texas National Guard who have been supervising the evacuation cheer as the last evacuee, an elderly man in a Houston Rockets cap, boards the bus. Later, more evacuees arrive at the Superdome, and the evacuation effort continues.

    Col. John Smart, chief operations officer for Joint Task Force Katrina West, reports that, as of Saturday afternoon, 42,000 people have been evacuated from New Orleans by bus, air and Amtrak trains.

    FEMA director Brown warns that "hot spots" of crime remain in New Orleans. "Some of these kids think this is a game. They have a gun and they think it is a game they are playing," he said. Brown also says that any "idiots with a gun on a rooftop" would soon be meeting with force from active-duty troops. Brown declines to estimate how many stranded New Orleanians remain to be rescued: "There is no humanly possible way of knowing at this stage how many people like that still exist in this vast urban area," he says.

    The body of Sgt. Paul Accardo, a New Orleans police officer, is found in an unmarked patrol car in a downtown parking lot. The cause of death is suicide.

    Rosalie Guidry Daste, a 100-year-old woman who had been stuck in her flooded nursing home for four days, dies moments after she's rescued from the facility.

    At a press briefing in Washington, DHS secretary Chertoff expresses "full confidence" in FEMA director Brown. Chertoff also deflects responsibility for the disaster's handling, saying the reason federal support did not arrive more quickly was "because our constitutional system really places the primary authority in each state with the governor."

    New Orleans deputy police commander W.S. Riley counters with criticism of the federal response: "My biggest disappointment is with the federal government and the National Guard. The Guard arrived 48 hours after the hurricane with 40 trucks. They drove their trucks in and went to sleep. For 72 hours this police department and the fire department and handful of citizens were alone rescuing people. We have people who died while the National Guard sat and played cards. I understand why we are not winning the war in Iraq if this is what we have."

    Sunday, Sept. 4

    FEMA announces that "one hundred percent of evacuees housed in the New Orleans Superdome and Convention Center have been evacuated." FEMA anticipates that more evacuees will arrive at the Superdome and convention center, and that they will be relocated on a flow basis. Authorities in New Orleans will report that 24 people died in the convention center and 10 died at the Superdome, though causes of death are not yet known.

    Also in FEMA's progress report: All patients from New Orleans' top 12 hospitals have been evacuated; 563 shelters in 10 states are housing a total population of 151,409 evacuees; and cruise ships are being brought into the coastal areas to provide temporary housing to approximately 8,000 additional evacuees.

    Jefferson Parish, La., president Aaron Broussard appears on NBC's Meet the Press, along with DHS secretary Chertoff, and claims that FEMA prevented aid from reaching his parish. Broussard cries when telling the story of an elderly woman who was promised aid for days before drowning on Friday. "Bureaucracy has committed murder here in the greater New Orleans area, and bureaucracy has to stand trial before Congress now...," he says. "Nobody's coming to get us. The secretary has promised. Everybody's promised. They've had press conferences. I'm sick of the press conferences. For God sakes, shut up and send us somebody."

    The Times-Picayune of New Orleans runs an open letter to President Bush criticizing the federal response to the disaster saying, "Every official at the Federal Emergency Management Agency should be fired, Director Michael Brown especially."

    The Chicago Tribune reports that the massive Marine ship the USS Bataan, which has been in the region since the worst of the storm subsided, has offered its extensive hospital facility and supplies to the relief effort, but that so far federal authorities haven't made use of most of the ship's resources. Though helicopters from the Bataan's deck were involved in early rescue efforts in New Orleans, relief efforts have not made use of the ship's doctors, six operating rooms, 600 hospital beds, food and water supplies, or its ability to produce 100,000 gallons of clean, fresh water each day.

    New Orleans police shoot and kill at least five residents, after those residents open fire on a group of 14 government contractors traveling across the city's Danziger Bridge to make repairs.

    Monday, Sept. 5

    President Bush returns to Louisiana, visiting with evacuees at the Bethany World Prayer Center in Baton Rouge and at Pearl River Community College in Poplarville. Staff members in Gov. Blanco's office says the White House didn't notify them that Bush would be visiting, and that they found out he was coming by watching the news.

    Kellogg, Brown & Root Services, long criticized for its lucrative no-bid Iraq reconstruction contract, begins work on a $500 million U.S. Navy contract for emergency cleanup and repairs following Hurricane Katrina.

    The patching of New Orleans's 17th Street Canal breach with 300-pound sandbags and bags of rock is completed. The canal is reopened, so it can be used to pump water out of the city. Army engineers report that the breach in the London Avenue Canal is also closed.

    Former First Lady Barbara Bush, accompanying President George H.W. Bush on a tour of the evacuation center at Houston's Astrodome, opines that many of the Gulf Coast's evacuees are better off: "What I'm hearing, which is sort of scary, is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this - this [she chuckles slightly] is working very well for them."

    Tuesday, Sept. 6

    Mayor Nagin orders a forced evacuation of New Orleans. Police and National Guard forces go door-to-door to usher an estimated 10,000 holdouts into boats and helicopters.

    The Associated Press reports that hundreds of firefighters who have volunteered to assist in hurricane relief efforts "have instead been playing cards, taking classes on the history of the Federal Emergency Management Agency and lounging at an Atlanta airport hotel for days while they await orders. Some have been waiting for four days. FEMA's Tony Russell says only that the agency is trying to deploy the firefighters as quickly as possible but that it us unsure where to send them - FEMA "wants to make certain they are sent to the right places," he says. Meanwhile, the Salt Lake Tribune reports that approximately 1,000 firefighters, many of whom thought they had volunteered to be emergency workers, were instead being trained in Atlanta to be public relations officers for FEMA.

    FEMA denies journalists' requests to ride in rescue boats as they search for storm victims. An agency spokesperson tells newswire service Reuters, "We have requested that no photographs of the deceased be made by the media."

    With the Army Corps of Engineers pumping water out of the New Orleans via the 17th Street Canal, the floodwaters are beginning to drop. Mayor Nagin estimates that 60 percent of the city remains under water. "Even in areas where the water was as high as the rooftops, I started to see parts of the buildings," he says after taking an aerial tour. "I'm starting to see rays of light."

    Democratic Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barbara Mikulski call for FEMA director Brown to resign. They also introduce legislation that would separate FEMA from the Homeland Security Department, restoring it to being an independent Cabinet-level federal agency. Meanwhile, House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi tells President Bush she thinks Brown should be fired. According to Pelosi, Bush thanks her for her suggestion.

    Responding to criticism of the federal response to Hurricane Katrina, President Bush volunteers to lead an investigation into the relief effort. Bush also announces that Vice President Dick Cheney will tour the devastated region on Thursday - a week and a half after the hurricane struck.

    Wednesday, Sept. 7

    Centers for Disease Control and Prevention chief Dr. Julie Gerberding announces that sewage-related bacteria in the New Orleans floodwaters are at 10 times the maximum allowable level and warns those still in the city not to touch the water.

    The White House announces that it will request Congress to approve $51.8 billion in supplemental hurricane-relief funding, in addition to the $10.5 billion that went through the previous Friday. Press secretary Scott McClellan says $50 billion of the supplemental request will go to FEMA, $1.4 billion will go to the Defense Department, and $400 million will go to the Army Corps of Engineers.

    NBC's Brian Williams reports that he and his film crew have been prevented from filming members of the National Guard at work in New Orleans, and that a member of the local police aimed her gun at several members of the media who were reporting on the relief effort.

    Without consulting congressional Democrats, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist and House Speaker Dennis Hastert announce that a bipartisan joint congressional committee will investigate the hurricane relief effort. Republicans would have the majority on such a committee, allowing them to determine the focus and scope of the investigation.

    At the annual meeting of the National Baptist Convention of America in Miami, Democratic Party chairman Howard Dean says that race played a role in the government's hurricane response efforts: "We must ... come to terms with the ugly truth that skin color, age and economics played a deadly role in who survived and who did not."

    Thursday, Sept. 8

    President Bush, citing a national emergency, signs an executive order suspending the Davis-Bacon Act of 1931, effectively allowing reconstruction efforts in storm-ravaged areas to pay workers less than prevailing local wages.

    Time magazine raises questions about FEMA director Brown's resume, noting discrepancies in online profile and his official biography and suggesting that the Bush administration inflated his credentials.

    The state of Mississippi has recorded 201 deaths resulting from the storm, and Louisiana has recorded 83, bringing the total death toll near 290.

    Friday, Sept. 9

    The Bush administration removes FEMA director Brown from his role as the head of hurricane relief efforts. Brown is still head of FEMA, but the Coast Guard's chief of staff, Vice Adm. Thad Allen, will oversee the federal response to the storm. Of his immediate plans, Brown says, "I'm going to go home and walk my dog and hug my wife and, maybe get a good Mexican meal and a stiff margarita and a full night's sleep. And then I'm going to go right back to FEMA and continue to do all I can to help these victims."

    Officials in New Orleans announce a "zero access" media policy for New Orleans. The announcement is made by Army Lt. Gen. Russel Honore, who is overseeing the federal relief effort in the city, and Terry Ebbert, the city's homeland security director; Ebbert justifies the ban by saying that they consider photographing corpses to be improper.

    Vice President Cheney arrives in the Gulf Coast region. While the vice president is answering questions on live television, a local doctor who lost his home yells out, "Go f**k yourself, Mr. Cheney," a reference to the comment Cheney made to Sen. Patrick Leahy in 2004.

    Relief workers in Houston announce that they have contained a viral outbreak that leaves hundreds of evacuees reporting vomiting and diarrhea. An estimated 700 evacuees are treated for the symptoms, and 40 evacuees remain quarantined.

    In response to the zero-access media policy in New Orleans, CNN files suit against FEMA director Brown. CNN also files for a temporary restraining order against the policy, which U.S. District Court Judge Keith Ellison issues.

    Former Bush Secretary of State Colin Powell criticizes the hurricane relief effort during an interview with Barbara Walters for ABC's "20/20." "When you look at those who weren't able to get out, it should have been a blinding flash of the obvious to everybody that when you order a mandatory evacuation, you can't expect everybody to evacuate on their own. These are people who don't have credit cards; only one in 10 families at that economic level in New Orleans have a car. So it wasn't a racial thing - but poverty disproportionately affects African-Americans in this country. And it happened because they were poor," Powell says.

    Saturday, Sept. 10

    With CNN's lawsuit pending and Judge Ellison considering issuing a permanent injunction against the zero-access media policy in New Orleans, Joint Task Force Katrina spokesperson Col. Christian deGraff announces that it will not enforce the policy. The task force, deGraff says, "has no plans to bar, impede or prevent news media from their news gathering and reporting activities in connection with the deceased Hurricane Katrina victim recovery efforts."

    The total number of hurricane-related deaths climbs to 372, with 154 confirmed dead in the New Orleans area.

    The former associate dean at the University of Southern California Law School, donating her services to help people with emergency legal needs, arrives in Gulfport, Miss. She and other legal volunteers end up spending most of their time trying to track down a mobile kitchen and provide basic human needs. "It was day 13 after Katrina struck, and no one was coordinating the relief effort in one of the poorest communities along the coast. We never found a resident who had ever seen even one FEMA official," Karen A. Lash wrote later.

    Sunday, Sept. 11

    Rescue and recovery personnel find 45 bodies in the flooded Memorial Medical Center in New Orleans, bringing state's death toll near 280.

    Monday, Sept. 12

    Michael Brown resigns his directorship of FEMA. The White House appoints the head of FEMA's preparedness division, R. David Paulison, as Brown's interim successor.

    President Bush denies that race played a role in hurricane relief: "When those Coast Guard choppers, many of who were first on the scene, were pulling people off roofs, they didn't check the color of a person's skin ... The storm didn't discriminate, and neither did the recovery effort."

    Water levels in New Orleans drop substantially and the streets become visible in even the most flooded neighborhoods, which only two days before were under 6 to 8 feet of water. A Guard staff sergeant in the city's Lower 9th Ward says, "The water's gone down so fast, we can't keep up with it. It's like the whole place dried up overnight." But many of the city's buildings, particularly those made of wood, are ruined after being under water for days and will have to be destroyed.

    Rescue workers uncover four more bodies in Mississippi and 82 more in Louisiana, bringing the hurricane's total death toll to 513.

    Tuesday, Sept. 13

    10:35 a.m. At a press conference with Iraqi President Jalal Talabani in the White House's East Room, President Bush acknowledges some personal responsibility for the failures of the hurricane relief effort: "Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government. And to the extent that the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility. I want to know what went right and what went wrong."

    Local authorities arrest the owners of St. Rita's nursing home in St. Bernard Parish and charge them with 34 counts of negligent homicide for failing to evacuate their patients, 34 of whom perished in the flooding. Authorities offered to evacuate the facility's inhabitants before the storm, but the owners, Mable and Salvador Mangano, declined the offer.

    Louisiana's Department of Health announces that the state's official death toll has risen to 423, a marked increase from the previous day's tally of 279. The total number of hurricane-related deaths in Alabama, Florida, Louisiana and Mississippi is currently 657. Estimates of the total cost of the hurricane's damage range from slightly more than $100 billion to close to $200 billion.

    --------

    Farhad Manjoo is a Salon staff writer.

Oct 4, 2005 5:23 pm

[quote=menotellname][quote=mikebutler222][quote=menotellname][quote=inquisitive] [quote=menotellname]

indytwo,

Unfortunately you haven't been here long enough to understand the mentality of certain folks on this forum.

The good thing is that they tend to reveal themselves (as you can see).

[/quote]

All of those shooting stories have proven to be false.

http://www.reason.com/links/links090605.shtml

Hey, who's down in New Ohrleahns shooting at rescue helicopters?



They are shooting at the people coming to help them. 
[/quote]

[/quote]

I didn't see where the author took on the arrest we all read about for firing at a helicopter.

[/quote]

I never saw where your brief article said that somebody fired at a helicopter.  I seem to remember your article stating that apartment members "heard shots fired" and that a helipcopter was in the area.  Nobody "saw" the accused shooting at the helicopter.  Nor did the pilot(s) report being shot at.

[/quote]

It's obvious the press and local government officials went off the deep-end reporting rumors as fact, etc. That's not to say that some things didn't happen. OTOH, there may have been a completely innocent explination for the guy that was arrested firing shots.

Oct 4, 2005 5:29 pm

[quote=menotellname]

.    But if Blanco failed to cut through red tape, that still leaves the question why the red tape was there in the first place. In a disaster, provision should be made in advance for bypassing the jurisdictional issues and regulations that plagued the response to Katrina. [/quote]

Right, the Federal government has the legal authority to simply wish away "jurisdictional issues" (read: THE LAW REGARDING FEDERAL VERSUS LOCAL AUTHORITY). What a crock. Any doubt that the SAME AUTHORS would have a hissy-fit if the Feds were to march into an area and simply seize authority they have no legal right to? Hell, these are the same people that have ahissy-fit when the Feds exercise powers they have every right to.