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Oct 6, 2006 1:48 am

Indyone- you guys just don't get it, do you? You are talking about ticket charges, grid, payouy, blah, blah, blah- and you call that substance? Given the fact that you've posted 1241 times on this site, seems you might spend too much time in here. Okay stud, you want substance- let's go.

Substance is not twenty-something dollar ticket charges, 25 bps admin fees, 90% grids, or franchise fees, etc. Those are commodities- very close for each firm. Substance is going from an employee to independent successfully in which you understand your pricing model, your business structure, you overhead, and your overall fully allocated profitability.

Substance is knowing the risks and rewards of where to move and when because I am sure we are all looking for different things- some the cash flow, some the asset, some the tax advantages, and some, a better quality of life.

Substance is understanding WHY MS and UBS are offering the BIG upfront check when they are not in the business of charity. Substance is knowing the culture of ML and whether it will work for you or not. It's knowing what Tom James will do with his company in 5 years, or whether the venture capital firms at LPL will go IPO, sell-out, tighten up, etc. Substance is understanding the capabilities of Ed Jones and there limited offering but excellent training.

How about the ability to market effectively and with a unique value proposition, or how doing so in an RIA model may or may not pose risk if you are offering to advise clients on "most" of their assets, but not all, then get hammered for missing something THEY thought you were managing actively or overseeing.

I don't think you are as smart as you think you are- which is why you spend so much time reading blogs. You see, we understand that we can confidently have significant profit margins in ANY platform, but it is nice to talk to professionals who speak and understand what we are trying to do at our level and then show us HOW we can do it. So- if you want to know Wachovia's, or LPL, or Raymond James ticket charges, CALL THEN yourself.

Don't get me wrong- I find value in the forum here, but not from people who seem to think others need to prove something to them to make them legitimate- or is that how a NEWBIE  is broken in.

Oct 6, 2006 6:09 pm

Captain- I don't agree with all that you explained but I really appreciate your feedback and knowledge. We have talked to Schwab and the risk of this was an issue for us, as well as the fact that they did not offer any upfront capital to help, whereas LPL only offered a 10% working capital loan, and FiNet offered a 20% forgiveable and then a substantial working capital as well.

Basically, from what I'm hearing you describe, RIA is the way to go, but I have an issue with trying to manage money and being the compliance guy as well. FiNet explained to me that they take care of that just like where we are at now and I think I'm more apt to "spend the money" on letting them worry about it and not me or my staff. I thought Schwab would cover that portion but I now understand they don't. Anyway- thanks for the useful information.

Oct 7, 2006 4:47 am

[quote=WealthAdvisor]Indyone- you guys just don’t get it, do you? You are talking about ticket charges, grid, payouy, blah, blah, blah- and you call that substance? Given the fact that you’ve posted 1241 times on this site, seems you might spend too much time in here. Okay stud, you want substance- let’s go.  Yes, I get it.  You come on here and say “RAH, RAH WACHOVIA!!!” without giving us any real information about why you’re so high on the firm.  Why do you think I believe you to be a shill?  As far as whether or not I spend too much time here, that’s not your call, big boy…I don’t work for you, but given that I’ve posted less than 2.5 times a day, I’m comfortable with the amount of time I spend on here.

Substance is not twenty-something dollar ticket charges, 25 bps admin fees, 90% grids, or franchise fees, etc. Those are commodities- very close for each firm.  I don't think it's as close as you'd like us to believe, shill.  If it is, put your money where your mouth is and post Wachovia's numbers.  Substance is going from an employee to independent successfully in which you understand your pricing model, your business structure, you overhead, and your overall fully allocated profitability.  What a bunch of meaningless fluff.  You still haven't answered why Wachovia is best for you.  I'm not saying it's not...just telling you that the "RAH RAH" stuff is worthless for someone trying to make an informed decision.

Substance is knowing the risks and rewards of where to move and when because I am sure we are all looking for different things- some the cash flow, some the asset, some the tax advantages, and some, a better quality of life.  No kidding.

Substance is understanding WHY MS and UBS are offering the BIG upfront check when they are not in the business of charity. Substance is knowing the culture of ML and whether it will work for you or not. It's knowing what Tom James will do with his company in 5 years, or whether the venture capital firms at LPL will go IPO, sell-out, tighten up, etc. Substance is understanding the capabilities of Ed Jones and there limited offering but excellent training.  Don't know what Tom James intends to do, but it's likely he'll look to cash his chips at some point.  LPL has made no secret out of the fact that there will most likely be an IPO, perhaps as early as 2008.  The Edward Jones story is old news...and gee, I'm sure nothing adverse will happen at Wachovia over the next few years.

How about the ability to market effectively and with a unique value proposition, or how doing so in an RIA model may or may not pose risk if you are offering to advise clients on "most" of their assets, but not all, then get hammered for missing something THEY thought you were managing actively or overseeing.  You can argue that with Captain...I'm not an RIA.

I don't think you are as smart as you think you are- which is why you spend so much time reading blogs. You see, we understand that we can confidently have significant profit margins in ANY platform, but it is nice to talk to professionals who speak and understand what we are trying to do at our level and then show us HOW we can do it. So- if you want to know Wachovia's, or LPL, or Raymond James ticket charges, CALL THEN yourself.  You don't know how smart I am or how smart I think I am.  I'm smart enough to know that you always need to be learning in this business, so yes, I do like to read about what others are thinking...how's that any different than what you're doing, except for the fact that I started reading here a while before you did.  I personally don't give a rat's ass about the charges on any platform, but the one I'm on.  The day I become unhappy with that platform, then I'll start caring.  What I was trying to accomplish was to see if you'd post any real information on Wachovia that might be useful to someone here looking at the various firms.

Don't get me wrong- I find value in the forum here, but not from people who seem to think others need to prove something to them to make them legitimate- or is that how a NEWBIE  is broken in.  I find value here also...but not with "RAH, RAH, WACHOVIA!!!"  That tells a Wachovia prospect nothing, except that you might have a vested interest in driving recruits to Wachovia.[/quote]

Oct 7, 2006 6:07 am

[quote=WealthAdvisor]

Captain- I don’t agree with all that you explained but I really appreciate your feedback and knowledge. We have talked to Schwab and the risk of this was an issue for us, as well as the fact that they did not offer any upfront capital to help, whereas LPL only offered a 10% working capital loan, and FiNet offered a 20% forgiveable and then a substantial working capital as well.

Basically, from what I'm hearing you describe, RIA is the way to go, but I have an issue with trying to manage money and being the compliance guy as well. FiNet explained to me that they take care of that just like where we are at now and I think I'm more apt to "spend the money" on letting them worry about it and not me or my staff. I thought Schwab would cover that portion but I now understand they don't. Anyway- thanks for the useful information.

[/quote]

Hey smart guy....how about you apply a little common sense to the equation?  There is a REASON why FiNet is offering a 'transition package' that is twice as rich as LPL.  They have to do so to attract advisors.  Yet, despite this greater incentive, they still haven't been near as successful recruiting as LPL over the last 2-3 years.  Hmmmmm.  Wonder why?

FiNet means that you're working for management with a wirehouse mentality, but you have an indy cost structure.  With wirehouse compliance people.

FiNet offered me a 25% deal, part outright signing bonus part loan which was paid via a reduced payout.  I turned them down, and was happy for it.

Ask them how many times they've tweaked their comp structure in the last five years.  See if they give you an honest answer.
Oct 7, 2006 8:20 am

When a guy is doing 150 it's easy to decide to turn down a 25% transition package that mostly has to be repaid.

It's also easy to claim you were offered such a package, when in reality your production is not high enough to get an offer in the first place.

Oct 7, 2006 11:15 am

At Wachovia, if you’re not producing 250k gross minimum than your payout is reduced. Sounds like a bank or wirehouse to me, not an indy firm.

Oct 7, 2006 12:36 pm

IndyOne- looks like we're getting into heated debate here- but take a moment to look at my perspective, just for a minute.

I've been occassionally reading these forums for a couple of years- thinking most of it really provided me, moderate value a best, depending on the subject.

Once we started doing our due diligence, we started spending a lot of time (too much time in fact) on trying to find the best fit- and quite honestly, didn't necessarily think it was independence because leaving our big firm is a bit scary.

So, I took a call from a couple of recruiters, but felt we were being steered toward certain firms, so we decided to contact the firms ourselves. Of the several recruiters we talked to, I was impressed with one, and my point of the posting was to share that with other people looking to move- period. They maybe would have the same experience we did, maybe not- but it is a referral to them.

You were the first to response in what I consider an attack- by callling my post a "shill" for Wachovia. I didn't appreciate being basically called "bait" for Wachovia, at all. I especially did not appreciate it since over the last few months I've read many, many, many entries that could be perceived as such because they were books on the firm they were jumping up and down on. That's okay though- it's an open forum.

At the end of your comments you mentioned that you were looking for something else from my comment- some "meat" on Wachovia. Honestly, that was not the purpose of my comment. The purpose was a simple referral to someone. Contact them or not-

Now, if this is the place people want real hard facts- fine. Just don't read my posting- which seemingly became a debate, albeit I did learn quite a bit from "Captain"- though I still don't believe he knows Wachovia inside and out.

I have done enough due diligence that I have asked many questions in order to come to our teams decision- and that is to affiliate with Wachovia FiNet. Yes, the upfront had "something" to do for it, but it was clear that Wachovia is not looking to attract the lower producers. They offer no upfront in forgiveable dollars for under $250k FA, 5% for up to $300k, then it tiers up from there, and I don't know exactly how, just that at $800k, ours was 20% plus another 30% available- and they made it clear that it was to help us start our company and it vested by production and has 8 years to balloon, no penalty should we prepay, etc.

The grid is 90% on advisory and packaged products, 85% on transactional business with a $26 ticket charge and they made it clear that they make money from that by design- and told us that without our asking. They have administrative fees on their advisory accounts that ranger from 35bps to 2bps, but for our accounts which average $500k, we were looking at 25bps and they showed us an example of how to bill and gave us the calculators to play with so we can replicate our business to theirs.

They ran a pro-forma (which was a mirror of our business) and layed out all the expenses- and I have that and my LPL one and they are very similar- the LPL one lower ticket charges but looks like the administrative fees are higher. Wachovia has the highest technology charges but they have a Thomson One based tech system similar to what we have at ML and it seems very robust and user friendly- I can even move money without asking my assistant if need be.

Their regional teams are organized to not just recruit but be our contact to the resources of the bigger firm. I visited their office in Richmond (VA) and FiNet was clearly a separate entity with different ops, supervision, and management (and yes, I met John Peluso, and he impressed the heck out of us with his candor and open answering Q&A session with us).

I like that Wachovia is a recognized brand, although we are going to "brand" ourselves but telling our clients that their assets will be held with a big brokerage is comfortable. We did ask them whether they we dabbling in this busines or not and they reminded us that they own First Clearing which as over 150 broker dealer clients (Peluso helped build that I think I ready in the blog here), and they've been donig this for 5 years and seem to be successful.

I talked to 4 of their practices. I was reluctant to take the names they recommended, but they told me to just get on their office locator, and call ANY one of the practices, tell them what I was doing and ask if they minded asking some questions. I called 1 on the east coast, and 3 on the west and they all seemed pretty happy with their decision and with the regional team that supported them.

I was impressed with their investment planning software, their advisory folks (Michael Jones), and their approach to open architecture.

So- no, I am not a shill but I am quite sure that they are the best partners for us- not everyone, but us- and I do encourage those who are looking to look at them. After 6 months after we do this, I will post our contact information so you can ask me once the honeymoon is over, but for now- I stick to my first comment and if that is for some reason offensive to someone, skip over or slay away.

IndyOne- I just attempted to make "peace" with you by taking more time than I intended on a Saturday morning to provide some value to those looking and I hope this squares us up, not for any other reason that at the end of the day, we both do something very difficult- manage the financial life of often emotionally driven, sometime irrational clients- and to me, that deserves some respect unless you're a crook, and from reading many of your posting, I don't think you are at all.

TSA

Oct 7, 2006 12:41 pm

Excuse my typos, I was somewhat in a rush and did not go back and check my work, again.

Oct 7, 2006 1:25 pm

IndyOne- I just finished reading the comparison of LPL to RJ that you started May 2005. I have to ask- how did you find time to do your due diligence, move your book from a bank channel to independence, service your clients, and still have time to visit this site and post a message 1242 times? This truly amazes me and I've already spent more time than I should have in here, but I understand it was a great resource for my team in making a decision. Just an inquiry- you're not a shill for another B/D after all, are you??

Oct 7, 2006 1:30 pm

[quote=WealthAdvisor]

IndyOne- I just finished reading the comparison of LPL to RJ that you started May 2005. I have to ask- how did you find time to do your due diligence, move your book from a bank channel to independence, service your clients, and still have time to visit this site and post a message 1242 times? This truly amazes me and I've already spent more time than I should have in here, but I understand it was a great resource for my team in making a decision. Just an inquiry- you're not a shill for another B/D after all, are you??

[/quote]

Perhaps he's a very small producer?

Oct 7, 2006 3:42 pm

[quote=Soon 2 B Gone]

When a guy is doing 150 it’s easy to decide to turn down a 25% transition package that mostly has to be repaid.

It's also easy to claim you were offered such a package, when in reality your production is not high enough to get an offer in the first place.

[/quote]

Oh so now you know I was doing 150 at the time?  You just keep on thinking that, ok?

It really cracks me up how you are so obssessed with the details of my career and my business, and yet you still can't get them right.
Oct 8, 2006 2:33 am

[quote=WealthAdvisor]IndyOne- I just attempted to make “peace” with you by taking more time than I intended on a Saturday morning to provide some value to those looking and I hope this squares us up, not for any other reason that at the end of the day, we both do something very difficult- manage the financial life of often emotionally driven, sometime irrational clients- and to me, that deserves some respect unless you’re a crook, and from reading many of your posting, I don’t think you are at all.

TSA[/quote]

I redacted most of yourt post so as to not make this get too lengthy.  I'll start by saying that while you could be anyone, and theoretically could be a company shill, this post did not read like one and I no longer believe that you are.  This post had much of what the earlier ones did not...reasons why you liked Wachovia.  I respect your decision. and no, you don't owe anyone here an explanation, but to be honest, raving about a company without telling us why just sounded like a paid advertisement, and given that I've seen these time-wasting, disingenuous types on here before, I called it like I saw it.  Assuming you to be genuine, you have my respect for making a difficult decision to take the leap to independence and I wish you well.  If you have time as you make the transition, or after the dust settles, feel free to tell us how it went.  There's a lot of junk on here, but there's also valuable information posted by reps who've made a change for reps contemplating making a change, whether it's from one firm to another or one channel to another.

See, I'm not a bad guy if you're not trying to sell me something...

Oct 8, 2006 4:33 am

[quote=WealthAdvisor]IndyOne- I just finished reading the comparison of LPL to RJ that you started May 2005. I have to ask- how did you find time to do your due diligence, move your book from a bank channel to independence, service your clients, and still have time to visit this site and post a message 1242 times? This truly amazes me and I've already spent more time than I should have in here, but I understand it was a great resource for my team in making a decision. Just an inquiry- you're not a shill for another B/D after all, are you??[/quote]

...that depends upon your perspective, I suppose.  For the record, I am who I say I am, although I'll admit to varying my past production/AUM numbers on occasion to keep my old manager from finding me here when I was doing due diligence.  Again, keep in mind, I average 2-3 posts a day and as a chronic insomniac who averages about five hours of sleep, I have plenty of time to cover all my duties and contribute here.  I keep busy, but I like it that way.  I don't consider myself a shill, but I have defended my B/D from time to time and I think they do a fine job helping me run my practice.

Touche.

Oct 8, 2006 4:37 am
Soon 2 B Gone:

[quote=WealthAdvisor]IndyOne- I just finished reading the comparison of LPL to RJ that you started May 2005. I have to ask- how did you find time to do your due diligence, move your book from a bank channel to independence, service your clients, and still have time to visit this site and post a message 1242 times? This truly amazes me and I’ve already spent more time than I should have in here, but I understand it was a great resource for my team in making a decision. Just an inquiry- you’re not a shill for another B/D after all, are you??

Perhaps he's a very small producer?[/quote]

Spoken like a former Vice President of Paperclips after being downsized...

Oct 8, 2006 12:49 pm
Indyone:

[quote=Soon 2 B Gone][quote=WealthAdvisor]IndyOne- I just finished reading the comparison of LPL to RJ that you started May 2005. I have to ask- how did you find time to do your due diligence, move your book from a bank channel to independence, service your clients, and still have time to visit this site and post a message 1242 times? This truly amazes me and I’ve already spent more time than I should have in here, but I understand it was a great resource for my team in making a decision. Just an inquiry- you’re not a shill for another B/D after all, are you??

Perhaps he's a very small producer?[/quote]

Spoken like a former Vice President of Paperclips after being downsized...

[/quote]

You think they downsized the need for having an SVP head up branch office operations?

Oct 8, 2006 5:21 pm

IndyOne- so who did you affiliate with and why? Who did you look at? What did you like and not like about them?

Oct 8, 2006 8:46 pm

[quote=WealthAdvisor]IndyOne- so who did you affiliate with and why? Who did you look at? What did you like and not like about them?[/quote]

For those who don't know, I looked hard at Raymond James and LPL and ultimately affiliated with LPL.  Wachovia didn't really come up in my search, probably for a variety of reasons.  First, Wachovia is a bank-owned B/D, and I was having a pretty poor experience with a bank-owned operation at the time.  Two, my wholesalers all told me that RJ & LPL were the two big players when it came to indy B/Ds.  Third, a couple of friends told me that the Wachovia grid was a moving target based on production, and they really didn't have a true indy platform.

It's always possible that I didn't get good information on Wachovia (or perhaps I got good information that is now stale), and had I not found a comfortable fit on my first two due diligence trips, I would have looked at Commonwealth, which I subsequently heard good things about, and perhaps Wachovia.  As it was, I had a very tough time deciding between RJ and LPL and felt like I could have made it work with either one.  I chose LPL because I liked their tech platform and the choices under their fee-based system, among other things, but as I've said, it was a close decision.  If you want to see the whole story, it's under that gigantic "Raymond James vs. LPL" thread.

Now, a question for you and possibly others familiar with Wachovia...it's been said several times on here and elsewhere that Wachovia has a "pseudo-indy" platform.  Perhaps that is an unfair characterization, but fair or not, I'm now a bit curious as to what the difference between a "pseudo-indy" and an "indy" platform really is.  Any insight here?

Oct 8, 2006 9:54 pm

IndyOne- yes, I can answer that because I looked at it, and think this is where the confusion comes in.

Within its PCG (Private Client Group) platform (you know, big office, BOM, traditional model), is something referred to as Profit Formula. Profit Formula was dubbed pseudo-independent because it provided at one time, a stand alone office, a 75% grid, and a Schedule A list of expenses that the Profit Formula FA's paid a pro-rata portion of. As FiNet rolled out, and a separate B/D was created (WSFN), the WS b/d changed the deal on Profit Formula that it has to be a suite in an existing office (co-located with the BOM).

Those from the wirehouse (me included) thought this was independent, but you are still an employee of Wachovia Securities. You get a W-2, have benefits, etc. Reality of it is, you're not independent at all, but some BOM's sold it as that because of the independent structure of it. I found out that it is actually an enhanced payout structure under the traditional PCG model and though it does give an FA more control, it's not the world of independence as you know it, and I will. It is also confusing sometimes because John Peluso built Profit Formula but then took over FiNet.

FiNet is basically the creation of taking Wachovia Corps First Clearing model, and adding the Wachovia brand, sales supervision, and consulting firm to it. That is why I am not concerned at all about whether I will like WSFN or not- because I can go with a First Clearing b/d with the same products anyway- just wouldn't get the upfront money and a regional team supporting us, which I consider important.

So, FiNet (also known as WSFN) is truly independent in that they have the same structure (1099 to its owners), same overall payout options, as LPL, Raymond James, Commonwealth, etc. We too, looked at ALL of them, but that is where Craig went over some things that differentiate them and why we ultimately chose FiNet. I relied on him because he has a independent background and didn't talk like a corporate pawn (whom I also don't like- nor shillls, which is why I took such offense to your initial insult)- though I now think you're actually probably a really good guy (or gal?) and I'm over it.

Did you understand my explanation? I almost confused myself- but Profit Formula is an enhance pay package that is the employee model,and FiNet is a 1099 independent model. As I know it- Profit Formula has a $1 million per FA minimum, and FiNet $250k, but the FiNet model only becomes compelling around $350k to $400k as far as we could tell unless you are sharing space with someone else.

As usual, excuse my typos.

Oct 9, 2006 2:32 pm

That’s excellent information…and it looks like Wachovia has evolved some since I first heard about their indy program.  Thanks for contributing.

Oct 9, 2006 3:09 pm

[quote=Soon 2 B Gone][quote=WealthAdvisor]

IndyOne- I just finished reading the comparison of LPL to RJ that you started May 2005. I have to ask- how did you find time to do your due diligence, move your book from a bank channel to independence, service your clients, and still have time to visit this site and post a message 1242 times? This truly amazes me and I've already spent more time than I should have in here, but I understand it was a great resource for my team in making a decision. Just an inquiry- you're not a shill for another B/D after all, are you??

[/quote]


Better to be a small producer than dead weight!

Perhaps he's a very small producer?

[/quote]