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Feb 21, 2006 12:22 pm

Any thoughts or experiences with the Guardian....

Feb 21, 2006 12:50 pm

OK...I would imagine most of you have a portion (large or very small) of your book in insurance related products (life, DI, LTC, and annuities).  And I realize many of you are AUM guys but you still probably sell some insurance even if you hate the stuff. 


My question is this...how do you all feel about working for a company's whose foundation is whole life insurance.  Do any of you sell it despite the industry trend being to buy term insurance and invest the difference.  Explain most client and advisor responses to whole life insurance.


Feb 21, 2006 3:16 pm

I don't sell whole life...it's a waste of money.


If I want to sell permanent life, I'll sell UL (not VUL, I don't want this to be risky) with minimum cash accumulation (you're buying it for the insurance anyway, right?).


Anybody that sells Whole Life for an investment is in it for the commission only.   Not to mention by definition it's illegal (to sell as an investment).

Feb 21, 2006 5:27 pm
GOLFPRO:

Any thoughts or experiences with the Guardian....


They are highly rated by ALL the ratings houses.  They have excellent products...including Life, DI, LTCi...they are respected in the industry...they have a GA system and a brokerage arm along with it...


Go visit your local GA's office and discuss your product needs with him.  He can help you.  No one on this site can...for at least two reasons.  (1.)  They dont know anything about Insurance. (2.)  They have never been a Guardian Agent.


They CAN tell you all the reasons to hate Edward Jones however...(smile)



Feb 21, 2006 5:47 pm

Are you currently a Guardian FR?  Or have you been in the past?  And I agree with you....look at the comment above yours...I am sorry but that comment reflects pure ignorance and lack of knowledge regarding the insurance industry.


I realize that most on this site don't do much with insurance and are very AUM minded, but these same people tend to be very opinionated about certain topics (ie. insurance) and quite honestly they have not been properly educated on.


Feb 21, 2006 7:04 pm

I realize that most on this site don't do much with insurance and are very AUM minded, but these same people tend to be very opinionated about certain topics (ie. insurance) and quite honestly they have not been properly educated on.


I have been licensed in insurance longer than I have been in securities. Over 15 years.  Just because we don't beat a single drum or have more than one song in our songbook doesn't mean we don't sell insurance or know about it.   I agree with the above poster in not selling whole life at this time.  I use UL or sometimes VL when appropriate for permanent insurance.  Life insurance is good for estate planning purposes, non qualified plans, buy sell agreement funding, long term care and asset replacement strategies among other things.


Insurance has a lot of uses but using your personal life insurance as a replacement for an investment program is not one of them. 

Feb 21, 2006 7:15 pm

Apparently you didn't entirely read my post, because I too believe that an investment program is NEVER replaced by a whole life insurance policy.


What I am saying is that many advisors don't fully understand the benfefits and uses of the policy especially when coupled with a sound investment strategy.  The only reason someone would not or should not own a WL policy is due to high premiums.  However good planners can find ways to fund these policies.


You have made the extent and depth of your insurance knowledge pretty clear if you believe in selling VUL.  Yes, VUL's sometimes have their place in certain deferred comp or business planning circumstances.


Selling term insurance and UL is easy and especially VUL when you plug 12% ROR into the illustration.  Understanding the uses and benefits of whole life takes an in depth knowledge on how these policies work and how they work well in unison with your investment strategies...apparently this education hasn't made its way into your practice yet...

Feb 21, 2006 8:55 pm
GOLFPRO:

Are you currently a Guardian FR?  Or have you been in the past?  And I agree with you....look at the comment above yours...I am sorry but that comment reflects pure ignorance and lack of knowledge regarding the insurance industry.



No...and No.   I have a good friend who is a substantial producer with them however.


Feb 21, 2006 10:08 pm
GOLFPRO:

Apparently you didn't entirely read my post, because I too believe that an investment program is NEVER replaced by a whole life insurance policy.


What I am saying is that many advisors don't fully understand the benfefits and uses of the policy especially when coupled with a sound investment strategy.  The only reason someone would not or should not own a WL policy is due to high premiums.  However good planners can find ways to fund these policies.


You have made the extent and depth of your insurance knowledge pretty clear if you believe in selling VUL.  Yes, VUL's sometimes have their place in certain deferred comp or business planning circumstances.


Selling term insurance and UL is easy and especially VUL when you plug 12% ROR into the illustration.  Understanding the uses and benefits of whole life takes an in depth knowledge on how these policies work and how they work well in unison with your investment strategies...apparently this education hasn't made its way into your practice yet...



So educate us then.  Sharing is what this forum is supposed to be about.

Or would you simply prefer to just cast stones and walk away?

Feb 21, 2006 10:09 pm
BankFC:

I don't sell whole life...it's a waste of money.


If I want to sell permanent life, I'll sell UL (not VUL, I don't want this to be risky) with minimum cash accumulation (you're buying it for the insurance anyway, right?).


Anybody that sells Whole Life for an investment is in it for the commission only.   Not to mention by definition it's illegal (to sell as an investment).



Elaborate, please, why whole life is a waste of money.

From what I understand, whole life is the ONLY type of policy for which the cost of insurance is guaranteed for LIFE.  UL is tricky because-apparently-the insurance companies can mickey around with the cost of insurance and your client can end up getting the short straw.

Feb 22, 2006 10:27 am

Selling term insurance and UL is easy and especially VUL when you plug 12% ROR into the illustration.  Understanding the uses and benefits of whole life takes an in depth knowledge on how these policies work and how they work well in unison with your investment strategies...apparently this education hasn't made its way into your practice yet...


I know of no company that allows you to use a 12% projection for VL.  You are living in the past and it is obvious that you don't sell or are not licensed to sell VL.  The standard illustration is generally an 8% projection. 


The reason I don't sell whole life at this time is due to the extremely low interest rates used in the guarantes in the whole life product that make the premiums much too high as the internal cash accumulation the would normally offest the cost of insurance doesn't grow as it did in the past. 


From what I understand, whole life is the ONLY type of policy for which the cost of insurance is guaranteed for LIFE.  UL is tricky because-apparently-the insurance companies can mickey around with the cost of insurance and your client can end up getting the short straw.


Joe is right and that is why you as an agent need to be monitoring the cash value of UL policies and the client needs to be aware of the pitfalls in the variable interest rate possiblities and that they may/or may not have to increase their premiums at some point.


This is our JOB as agents.


I think Golfpro's job is an insurance wholesaler.

Feb 22, 2006 10:57 am

OK....First of all I am licensed to sell VUL, and my 12% example was to make a point......regardless if you use 6%,8% or whatever, the point is insurance is for insurance and investments are separate.  Who would ever "gamble" on their insurance being there in the future just so they can have a nice cash value build up.  Whatever I don't chose to argue about VUL, if you sell it fine...I don't and never would. 


Yes currently in Guardian policies the cash value grows internally at 4% and then the Guardian pays a dividend as well.....and they have every year for the last 140 years.  Currently it is at 6.5%.  It is obvious that you are looking at things as most do in a microeconomic was.  Crunching the numbers inside these policies is worthless, because as I said before, these are not sold for investment purposes, but rather for the freedom and flexibility it gives a client when used properly inside of a sound financial plan.


Joe, you hit the nail on the head about WL and UL.  There are very few mutual insurance companies left, therefore whole life is not a priority product for them to sell.  What is the number one goal of a stock company.......to increase shareholder value, increase earnings, produce results.  Well that is why they all sell boat loads of term insurance and UL.  Term insurance is a cash cow because statistically 1% of people die before 65 when most term policies expire.  So they are genius to sell a lot of term and push it heavily.  UL was their answer to WL and term combined, exactly what it is.  They hold the reigns to these policies.  They can increase premiums by making the cost of insurance higher.  Just about the only way to rest easy with a UL policy is to overfund the heck out of it.  You take money out.....you lose ALL the guarantees. 


Sure people buy UL and may be happy with it, especially some of these new Guaranteed No Lapse UL, but they are limiting themselves.  I can show people how you can pay into a Whole Life policy for 10 yrs or so and stop paying premiums for LIFE, while having a policy that grows continuously until you die.


There is no substitute for a dividend paying whole life policy.  Here is something to consider.  If you have two people, call them person A and B....and they both retire at 65 with 1,000,000 in assets.  But person A has term insurance that is now CANCELLED and person B has 1,000,000 of permanent life insurance in place and guaranteed to be there forever...........who can spend their assets more freely.  Which one has to live in FEAR of running out of money.   What options does person B have that A doesn't.  Strategies regarding whole life require someone to be an outside the box thinker, someone who understands creative strategies regarding estate planning, legacy planning, tax planning, pension maximization, and charitable giving.  As opposed to mainstream traditional "buy term invest the difference, or buy UL it is so much better."  Looney you don't sell it cause you don't know how, plain and simple.  If you did you not only would make more money (which should be your last reason) but you would have satisfied clients with much more security and options throughout the reats of their lives.  Think about it........curious to see your response.


And no I am not a wholesaler..........

Feb 22, 2006 12:09 pm

GOLFPRO,


congrats on throwing in depth planning terms like "understands creative strategies regarding estate planning, legacy planning, tax planning, pension maximization, and charitable giving". 


i dont know if anyone on this board can grasp those concepts. please do not come on here acting like nobody understands insurance.  i can only wish for the day when i learn to plug in only paying for 10 years into an insurance policy.  maybe if we can all learn to do that we can all get to your competency level. 


i bet i could kick you a$$ at golf and insurance illustrations, and neither of those statements are a joke. 

Feb 22, 2006 12:23 pm

Well I hope you are kidding about finding out a way to only pay 10 years into a policy.  10 years was simply a round number I used as an example.  Run an illustration for a whole life policy and choose the premium offset otption, and it will calculate in what year one can stop paying premiums into the policy and it will be guaranteed to stay in force for life.  It is rather simple.


And in reference to my "in depth planning term," if you read closely I referred to strategies REGARDING those terms, I wasn't introducing them to the forum as if they are groundbreaking concepts.


I am not on here to fight or argue, and I am surely not assuming nobody know anything about insurance, cause I am sure many of you do.  Somebody started this debate by saying they would never sell whole life and only sell UL or VUL and that my friend depicts ignorance.


Instead of lashing out at me with some weak comebacks, try to input something worthwhile to the topic of discussion.


And as for beating me in golf, that would be IMPOSSIBLE, and as for being able to kick my a$$ at insurance illustrations I could really care less.  Thanks...

Feb 22, 2006 12:59 pm

Unless you are Tiger Woods, it is far from impossible.

Feb 22, 2006 1:45 pm

impossible. can you really make that statment?  unless you are on the tour, i feel pretty confident that i can at minimum hang with almost anyone, and probably spank your A$$.  seriously, getting into a golf ego battle would be pointless here seeing as how we'll never face off on No.1 tee, you and i can both claim to be scratch golfers.  the comment was really trying to poke at you b/c i know how sensitive all of us golfers can be about our games.


my only feeling is that you are claiming to be a life guru and telling everyone else that "you don't know how, plain and simple".  that is simply false.  and you are showing your ignorance by saying you would never sell a VUL except for deferred comp or business planning.  talk about education not making it into your practice.  and dont for a second think that I think VUL makes sense everywhere or it is something i recommend to everyone.  but to simply not think it has much value or potential application is pure ignorance. 


some of my client who can not participate inside of a Roth IRA(for exceeding AGI phaseout limits),  have very little other way to receive preferable(taxfree) taxation on thier dollars. 


fortunately since the Roth 401(k) is now available with no income limitations and a much higher contribution limit, there will be ways available to them and i would highly encourage participation in that program, as long as they have enough time horizon to gain the tax benefit. 

Feb 22, 2006 4:31 pm
GOLFPRO:

OK....First of all I am licensed to sell VUL, and my 12% example was to make a point.....a point that isn't valid is hardly a point at all.


There is no substitute for a dividend paying whole life policy.  Here is something to consider.  If you have two people, call them person A and B....and they both retire at 65 with 1,000,000 in assets.  But person A has term insurance that is now CANCELLED and person B has 1,000,000 of permanent life insurance in place and guaranteed to be there forever...........who can spend their assets more freely.  Which one has to live in FEAR of running out of money.   What options does person B have that A doesn't. 


You just compared 2 people with CONSIDERABLY different cash outlays to get to that $1,000,000 in assets.  This is a very assinine example with little substance and no validity.  Unless you can make an example that is worth anything, don't waste our time.


If it were a decent example, one would analyze PAYING FOR the permanent insurance all those years (I'm assuming, since you did not, that the ins would be paid up at 65) VERSUS buying the term and investing the difference at an expected rate.  So if it were apples to apples the person owning term and investing the difference would have had MORE in assets than the person buying whole life.


This is why I despise insurance only guys.  When everything looks like a nail...


Why are you even posting here?  You're not asking questions about Guardian, because you're OBVIOUSLY already sold on them and what they sell. 


It's because you want VALIDATION for going into an industry that ranks right there with used car salesmen and pawn shop owners.  So you thought you'd post on a financial website and everybody would give you a big pat on the back.


Go somewhere else.  Some of us here (I do stress SOME) actually are professionals, and won't be impressed by your BS. 


P.S.  You might not be a wholesaler, but you should be.  You make examples just like they do. 


Feb 23, 2006 12:18 am

I think someone has too much time on their hands with all their cutting and pasting and BOLD letters.  You would be a good hire for an administrative position with your EXCEPTIONAL word processing skills..........I'll keep you in mind............ 

Feb 23, 2006 9:44 am

hacker

Feb 23, 2006 12:33 pm

Golfpro,


I suppose complete sentences and proper grammer are something you find impressive.


You keep dreaming buddy.  Good luck hitting MDRT (what a joke) this year ...what's the threshold now, like $70,000 in commission?


And that's TOP PRODUCERS!  


Piker.