BABs for IRAs

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Oct 24, 2009 10:30 pm

Anyone else loading up on these things in clients IRAs and utilizing the interest to DCA mutual funds? I'm seeing 5.5 - 7.25% A-AAA issues and can't find a reason why this is not great for the client. Plus, I get to annutize my business just a bit.



For example .. I did a 70k rollover today. Put 50k in 5 BAB issues and 20k into an asset allocation fund.



Easy, easy sell!

Oct 24, 2009 10:42 pm

I like it, except for the part where interest rates go up and the statement values of these long-term bonds go down. So, I am mixing in shoter duration bonds via UIT and mutual funds, plus TIPS or TIPS funds. (Thats just the fixed income part, so include the right mix of equities too).

Oct 24, 2009 10:55 pm

It's a government issue.  They can change the rules at any time.  I'd be very skeptical regardless of yields, liquidity, or rate of return. 

Oct 24, 2009 11:00 pm

The UITs you are selling right now do not include statement shock? Every UIT in my inventory is selling at a big premium, especially those in the short to intermediate range. What short duration bond fund do you use? I like Lord Abbot and GS.



I'm trying to solve for interest rates with the equity portion although know that's not absolutely effective - but since it's a moderate asset allocation fund it has some decent underlying bond funds.

Oct 24, 2009 11:01 pm
deekay:

It's a government issue. They can change the rules at any time. I'd be very skeptical regardless of yields, liquidity, or rate of return.





How can they change the terms? Do they do that with Muni bonds? Never heard of it.

Oct 24, 2009 11:19 pm
voltmoie:
deekay:

It's a government issue.  They can change the rules at any time.  I'd be very skeptical regardless of yields, liquidity, or rate of return. 



How can they change the terms? Do they do that with Muni bonds? Never heard of it.

 
Its a product that has zero history and is backed by the faith and credit of the federal government.  Forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical about outlier yields and 'safety'.
Oct 24, 2009 11:22 pm
deekay:


Its a product that has zero history and is backed by the faith and credit of the federal government. Forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical about outlier yields and 'safety'.





You are incorrect about it being backed by the federal government. These are taxable muni bonds backed by the issuer. The issuer get's a tax break from the feds to issue these bonds that are supposed to create jobs. There is a two year window and then they are no longer allowed to issue. I'm happy to send you a Jones fact sheet if you'd be interested in investing



http://online.barrons.com/article/SB124657310079888921.html

Oct 24, 2009 11:38 pm
voltmoie:

Anyone else loading up on these things in clients IRAs and utilizing the interest to DCA mutual funds? I'm seeing 5.5 - 7.25% A-AAA issues and can't find a reason why this is not great for the client. Plus, I get to annutize my business just a bit.

For example .. I did a 70k rollover today. Put 50k in 5 BAB issues and 20k into an asset allocation fund.

Easy, easy sell!


Annuitize what business, you don't even have an office.
Oct 24, 2009 11:38 pm
voltmoie:
deekay:
 

Its a product that has zero history and is backed by the faith and credit of the federal government.  Forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical about outlier yields and 'safety'.



You are incorrect about it being backed by the federal government. These are taxable muni bonds backed by the issuer. The issuer get's a tax break from the feds to issue these bonds that are supposed to create jobs. There is a two year window and then they are no longer allowed to issue. I'm happy to send you a Jones fact sheet if you'd be interested in investing

http://online.barrons.com/article/SB124657310079888921.html


 
I'm good, thanks.
 
"Nicknamed "BAB," these are taxable municipal bonds. States and municipalities like them because the federal government reimburses 35% of the interest cost when they borrow for essential public purposes like schools, infrastructure and transportation. "
 
I'm not saying they're bad, but doesn't the government have more pressing issues than paying 35% of the cost of repaving County Route 78 in the middle of BFE?
 
(no offense to those who live in BFE)
Oct 24, 2009 11:47 pm

We can argue with virtues projects the bonds support all day and I'll probably agree with you.



However, I think they are great investments in our current environment and those not utilizing them in IRAs should take a close look. I've lead with the following question and got more roll overs than I deserve.



"Given what we've seen in the last decade would you have been happy to get a 6 - 7% return?"



Um, yes



"If I could show you how to do just that going forward would you do it?"



Um, yes



sold...

Oct 24, 2009 11:55 pm
voltmoie:

We can argue with virtues projects the bonds support all day and I'll probably agree with you.

However, I think they are great investments in our current environment and those not utilizing them in IRAs should take a close look. I've lead with the following question and got more roll overs than I deserve.

"Given what we've seen in the last decade would you have been happy to get a 6 - 7% return?"

Um, yes

"If I could show you how to do just that going forward would you do it?"

Um, yes

sold...

 
I'm never gonna fault someone for trying to make a prospect a client, but the BAB's deserve a 2nd and 3rd look pre- and post-sale.
Oct 25, 2009 12:05 am

That's fair and good advice.

Oct 25, 2009 2:06 am

man, making $800 on a $70K rollover has to suck. 

Oct 25, 2009 9:36 am

I'll take it for 2 hours worth of work and he and his wifes much much larger 401ks a few years from now.

Oct 25, 2009 1:04 pm
voltmoie:

I'll take it for 2 hours worth of work and he and his wifes much much larger 401ks a few years from now.


That's if your still around!
Oct 25, 2009 1:13 pm
Mr.Blonde:
voltmoie:

I'll take it for 2 hours worth of work and he and his wifes much much larger 401ks a few years from now.



That's if your still around!




Prove you are.

Oct 25, 2009 4:45 pm

Yeah Volt, I think they're good stuff, especially to land new clients. As far as 'the government could change it, because they have to pay for other things first,' well, it's possible I guess. But I haven't seen anything like that happen historically. Read up on the Tennessee Valley Authority, or parts of the Interstate Highway system. Those have worked pretty good so far for 50 years. Just sayin'. Take it from a guy who has been around long enough to sell GMAC, Lehman, & CIT bonds, etc, only to come back & have to sell out of them. I think BAB's are good. Always keep in mind diversification and maturities.


Oct 25, 2009 7:22 pm

BABs are a great choice and they are much safer than corporates.

Oct 26, 2009 1:25 am

deekay, you don't have a clue.

 
A-rated muni's have literally 20 times less default risk than A-rated corps.  Second, all BAB's have an extrordinary call feature which allows the issuer to call the bond immediately if the Government fails to subsidize the interest payments.  Third, At around 100 basis points higher than comparable corporate bonds of the same maturity, there is an innefficiency you simply must take advantage of if you recommend individual bonds.  Fourth, BAB's can only be issued this year and next, meaning demand will remain high for these taxable rates long after supply is gone, lowering yields comparable to corporates long term.  Fifth, other than a 35% tax credit, these issues have nothing to do with the Federal Government.  They are simply backed by the underlying issuer.  And given the historic relative safety of municipals, especially central services and infrastructure bonds, these are an absolute no-brainer.
Oct 26, 2009 10:35 am

I don't like the idea of taking a 70K rollover and moving 50K into BAB's which are all long bonds and then 20K into an asset allocation fund. I would want to diversify the fixed income more than that.....