Extending unemployment

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Jul 3, 2010 8:43 am

Well said

Jul 3, 2010 9:42 am

Taxfree, I see that you are new here. Welcome! It's my hope that you will chime in on business related matters as well as social and political issues.

On the looking for a job issue - I'm trying to follow what you are saying. Are you saying that I'm stupid if i believe unemployed are looking for jobs? If that's what you are saying I have to ask; how is it stupid to believe the unemployed are looking for jobs when in my state you need to show proof of that search to claim benefits? Benefits are claimed every two weeks. No proof, no check.  No belief system needed.

On my causal attitude towards those gaming the system - an extreme minority who are not going to change. These people are also the people who are irresponsible in every walk of life and are always looking for ways to get over on others. Again, where i live this type of bum is in the extreme minority. I take it from your reaction that this type of lowlife is not in the minority in your neck of the woods? Thus your outrage? I guess i'd be frustrated to if i lived in your neighborhood. I don't like those kind of people any more than you do. I'm just glad i don't have to live around them or near them.

About my brother. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I ask, because you need to show me where i said my brother was fiscally irresponsible? What i said was he was losing his job. That's it!  Yet, you use your misreading of my comment to launch into your soapbox diatribe  about  misguided entitlement programs helping those not worthy. Your argument is no different that RW's. He makes the needy out be worthless vermin, you make them out as fiscally irresponsible. Both put those in need in the same place - not worth helping. Convenient!

Is six months unemployment enough? In a near depression not nearly.

Perhaps you see something in the unemployment numbers that i don't?

You are aware that those falling off the backend of unemployment, where benefits have run out, are no longer counted as unemployed? Any idea what the real number is?

How does unemployment help put people back to work? Again, where i live, not where you live, it keeps people actively looking for work. Unfortunately that work isn't coming until the economy turns.

ND - Apparently you know little of the high end job search field. Those engaged at this level are not sitting on their asses playing with their game systems at home. Most have offices, some with hired assistants. This team is scanning the world for placement opportunites. networking, technology, and very expensive employment search specialist are also put to task.

As i said my brother flew to europe last week for an interview. He's a top guy in his field with a wealth of experience. I assure you he's not sitting on his hands waiting for the day to bilk the government out of a whole $600 a week. Survey says he shouldn't settle for a job just to get a paycheck. It would take away from the effort to find the right job. Which aren't a dime a dozen. And under no circumstances should he take a job in the "Jobs easy to get" catagory. Just because you would take a job handing out fries at window #2 doesn't mean it's right for everyone. And in a world that is competitive as it is today, devaluing our most knowledgable and experienced employees is a serious mistake. (Additionally, a personal note,  when i fly I want to see some gray hair on the guy in the left front seat)

As a side note i've advised him to retire. He's got the dough. money isn't an issue. He's just a driven individual. Still, i told him to get his captain's license and work for a yacht company delivering boats. getting the license is a formality as he has years of experience piloting large boats. He loves boats, being on the water, it's a natural fit. He says he's not ready for the pasture.

Jul 3, 2010 1:53 pm

[quote=BondGuy]ND - Apparently you know little of the high end job search field. Those engaged at this level are not sitting on their asses playing with their game systems at home. Most have offices, some with hired assistants. This team is scanning the world for placement opportunities. networking, technology, and very expensive employment search specialist are also put to task.

As I said my brother flew to Europe last week for an interview. He's a top guy in his field with a wealth of experience. I assure you he's not sitting on his hands waiting for the day to bilk the government out of a whole $600 a week. Survey says he shouldn't settle for a job just to get a paycheck. It would take away from the effort to find the right job. Which aren't a dime a dozen. And under no circumstances should he take a job in the "Jobs easy to get" category. Just because you would take a job handing out fries at window #2 doesn't mean it's right for everyone. And in a world that is competitive as it is today, devaluing our most knowledgeable and experienced employees is a serious mistake. (Additionally, a personal note,  when i fly I want to see some gray hair on the guy in the left front seat)

[/quote] Are you talking about unemployment benefits or difficulties finding employment? I understand the difficulties finding a comparable job to the one you brother lost, since we are using him for an example. But he would be considered a professional middle to upper class white collar type of person and should have enough knowledge/experience to hedge his risks which would include losing his job. I would hope he had the since to live within his means too. If so he should have a substantial cash reserve. (just using him for an example no accusations implied)

Unemployment benefits were not designed for this type of professional. Unemployment benefits were designed for the middle to lower class blue collar worker hence the max of $300-$400 ish per week maximum income in my state. And if you think "proving" to search for a job is difficult let me assure you it is easy as any other scam.

My final and formal opinion of unemployment benefits are similar to the housing credit that just ended. I see the reason and understand the necessity to some point but it must end or you cannot define the line between hand ups and handouts. I would recommend a phase out or monthly reduction in the benefits. You see what happened to the housing market when the $8000 credit was ended. Why instead of extending that program did they not try to ratchet it down $1000 or $2000 per month until it reaches $0. That is what should have been placed in affect for unemployment because I guarantee you the majority of recipients will not look for work until the benefits either stop or they drop below a level where they cannot continue the lifestyle they choose to live.

Jul 3, 2010 3:45 pm

[quote=BondGuy]

Taxfree, I see that you are new here. Welcome! It's my hope that you will chime in on business related matters as well as social and political issues.

On the looking for a job issue - I'm trying to follow what you are saying. Are you saying that I'm stupid if i believe unemployed are looking for jobs? If that's what you are saying I have to ask; how is it stupid to believe the unemployed are looking for jobs when in my state you need to show proof of that search to claim benefits? Benefits are claimed every two weeks. No proof, no check.  No belief system needed.

On my causal attitude towards those gaming the system - an extreme minority who are not going to change. These people are also the people who are irresponsible in every walk of life and are always looking for ways to get over on others. Again, where i live this type of bum is in the extreme minority. I take it from your reaction that this type of lowlife is not in the minority in your neck of the woods? Thus your outrage? I guess i'd be frustrated to if i lived in your neighborhood. I don't like those kind of people any more than you do. I'm just glad i don't have to live around them or near them.

About my brother. Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I ask, because you need to show me where i said my brother was fiscally irresponsible? What i said was he was losing his job. That's it!  Yet, you use your misreading of my comment to launch into your soapbox diatribe  about  misguided entitlement programs helping those not worthy. Your argument is no different that RW's. He makes the needy out be worthless vermin, you make them out as fiscally irresponsible. Both put those in need in the same place - not worth helping. Convenient!

Is six months unemployment enough? In a near depression not nearly.

Perhaps you see something in the unemployment numbers that i don't?

You are aware that those falling off the backend of unemployment, where benefits have run out, are no longer counted as unemployed? Any idea what the real number is?

How does unemployment help put people back to work? Again, where i live, not where you live, it keeps people actively looking for work. Unfortunately that work isn't coming until the economy turns.

ND - Apparently you know little of the high end job search field. Those engaged at this level are not sitting on their asses playing with their game systems at home. Most have offices, some with hired assistants. This team is scanning the world for placement opportunites. networking, technology, and very expensive employment search specialist are also put to task.

As i said my brother flew to europe last week for an interview. He's a top guy in his field with a wealth of experience. I assure you he's not sitting on his hands waiting for the day to bilk the government out of a whole $600 a week. Survey says he shouldn't settle for a job just to get a paycheck. It would take away from the effort to find the right job. Which aren't a dime a dozen. And under no circumstances should he take a job in the "Jobs easy to get" catagory. Just because you would take a job handing out fries at window #2 doesn't mean it's right for everyone. And in a world that is competitive as it is today, devaluing our most knowledgable and experienced employees is a serious mistake. (Additionally, a personal note,  when i fly I want to see some gray hair on the guy in the left front seat)

As a side note i've advised him to retire. He's got the dough. money isn't an issue. He's just a driven individual. Still, i told him to get his captain's license and work for a yacht company delivering boats. getting the license is a formality as he has years of experience piloting large boats. He loves boats, being on the water, it's a natural fit. He says he's not ready for the pasture.

[/quote]

This is a mistake.  A little experience is needed yes.  But at some point, an aged pilot can actually increase your chances of a crash.

Your brother, of course, would not even need unemployment, so what is the problem?  Obviously, he is smart and hardworking.  He didn't get to be where he was by not being those things.

However, I would say the majority who remain on unemployment and out of the workforce are there because they are too lazy to find a job.  There is no incentive to get a decent paying job.

$1200 a month is better than no-hundred dollars a month and will allow you to eat. 

I think what we are trying to say is, if you have NO OTHER options, you get a job that pays the bills.  To do otherwise is weaksauce. 

I volunteer at homeless shelters and see it all of the time. 

Here is a good example.  My neighbor has been laid off for about five months.  On unemployment.  He is an IT guy.  An IT manager.  My home network wasn't working.  I went over asked him to look at it.  He came in, split the network, did some fancy smancy stuff and was in and out in less than thirty minutes.  Network works great.  I gave him $100 for his efforts.  Then asked him to come to the office.  Gave him another $150 (there were phones and other stuff to do too).  This was last week.

He now has 12 jobs booked.  Three are from businesses that are clients' of mine.  9 are from the neighborhood. 

Do you know what he's been doing the last five months?  Playing video games.  In fact, when I get home from WORK, he asks me to get online.  He doesn't realize that just because I come home at 4, doesn't mean I still don't have work to do.  I make dinner and then go back to the office.

Regardless, he knows his unemployment benefits will be ending soon.  And now he has a business.  Imagine that.

Jul 3, 2010 4:24 pm

The IT guy you referenced should have his unemployment benefits end already since he is working as an independent contractor.  This is what so many people do.  I know of several who milk out the unemployment and are working for cash. 

Jul 5, 2010 5:34 pm

[quote=N.D.]

[quote=BondGuy]ND - Apparently you know little of the high end job search field. Those engaged at this level are not sitting on their asses playing with their game systems at home. Most have offices, some with hired assistants. This team is scanning the world for placement opportunities. networking, technology, and very expensive employment search specialist are also put to task.

As I said my brother flew to Europe last week for an interview. He's a top guy in his field with a wealth of experience. I assure you he's not sitting on his hands waiting for the day to bilk the government out of a whole $600 a week. Survey says he shouldn't settle for a job just to get a paycheck. It would take away from the effort to find the right job. Which aren't a dime a dozen. And under no circumstances should he take a job in the "Jobs easy to get" category. Just because you would take a job handing out fries at window #2 doesn't mean it's right for everyone. And in a world that is competitive as it is today, devaluing our most knowledgeable and experienced employees is a serious mistake. (Additionally, a personal note,  when i fly I want to see some gray hair on the guy in the left front seat)

[/quote] Are you talking about unemployment benefits or difficulties finding employment? I understand the difficulties finding a comparable job to the one you brother lost, since we are using him for an example. But he would be considered a professional middle to upper class white collar type of person and should have enough knowledge/experience to hedge his risks which would include losing his job. I would hope he had the since to live within his means too. If so he should have a substantial cash reserve. (just using him for an example no accusations implied)

How long would you last (not you personally, but most high wage earners) if your income suddenly and unexpectedly went away? Went away forever? For most, there is a breaking point where something has to give. My point, it has nothing to do with fiscal responsibility. Those less responsible will reach that point sooner than those more fiscally responsible. But all will reach the breaking point. Making it about fiscal responsibilty gives the hard line anti entitlement crowd an out. It's a spin that allows them to turn their back on their neighbors in need.

Unemployment benefits were not designed for this type of professional. Unemployment benefits were designed for the middle to lower class blue collar worker hence the max of $300-$400 ish per week maximum income in my state. And if you think "proving" to search for a job is difficult let me assure you it is easy as any other scam.

Unemployment benefits are designed for everybody. But, I'll agree that the working wealthy could get by without it. The point is, it's not a living wage for anyone. At least it's not here in the Northeast. While there may be plenty of people gaming disability payments, playing around with unemployment isn't usually worth it. Why? The benefit is realtive to the previous income while employed. So, if the guy was making $500 a week before getting laid off, their benefit would be in the $150 - $175 a week range. Not enough to motivate someone to beat the system so they can stay home and play playstation. $800 a week gets you about $300 a week and so on. So, not a way to live the life of Riley.

As for scamming the system, Ok, tell me how?  A form has to be completed with names of firms contacted for employment. The form asks for phone number and dates of application. Lie about this and it's 3 to 5 years in the state pen. Don't complete the form, and no check that week. I'm not saying it's fool proof, just not enough money in this,  not worth doing 3 to 5 for trying it.

My final and formal opinion of unemployment benefits are similar to the housing credit that just ended. I see the reason and understand the necessity to some point but it must end or you cannot define the line between hand ups and handouts. I would recommend a phase out or monthly reduction in the benefits. You see what happened to the housing market when the $8000 credit was ended. Why instead of extending that program did they not try to ratchet it down $1000 or $2000 per month until it reaches $0. That is what should have been placed in affect for unemployment because I guarantee you the majority of recipients will not look for work until the benefits either stop or they drop below a level where they cannot continue the lifestyle they choose to live.

[/quote]

Jul 5, 2010 8:01 pm

[quote=Magician]

This is a mistake.  A little experience is needed yes.  But at some point, an aged pilot can actually increase your chances of a crash.

That you'll have to prove to me. The point isn't about old pilots. it was about devaluing some of our most valuable employees. The ones with the most experience. How old was Reagan when he was elected President? But, if you want to talk about old pilots, the story of United Flight 232 comes to mind. OK, no miracle on the Hudson. 111 of the 285 on board died. But that anyone lived was through the effort of the then one month shy of retirement Captain. A guy named Al Haynes who managed to get a mortally wounded  jumbo jet on the ground at an airport. The black boxes were recovered and the data programed into flight simulators. Airline pilots are required to undergo sim training on a regular basis. To date, few pilots who are exposed to this situation do more than create a giant smoking hole in the ground as the simuation rolls the plane over on its back, as it tried to do in real life, stopped by Capt Al, and then begins a death spiral. The few that get near the airport lose it and create the smoking hole there. None has done as well as Old Al Haynes did in real life. So, not so fast on devaluing an old experienced hand.

Your brother, of course, would not even need unemployment, so what is the problem?  Obviously, he is smart and hardworking.  He didn't get to be where he was by not being those things.

The spin from the hardcore anti entitlement crowd is that people are bilking unemployment. This spin gives them grounds to deny those in need a helping hand. I use my brother as an example of how no one in their right mind is out to bik unemployment because of the large gap between the working paycheck and the benefit.

My brother is a bad example, not because of the paycheck/benefit gap, but because he has means of support. Still, the argument holds up because the benefit recieved is relative to the working paycheck. A $25,000 a year worker doesn't recieve $25,000 in benefits. That worker would get at most $175 a week. Let's call it $8000 a year. Where is the incentive to lay back? Everything is relative, a 25k guy can't live on 8 or 10k anymore than a 150k guy can live on 30k and those amounts wouldn't be an incentive to do so.  That's the point.

 You guys act as if someone making 10k a year loses his job, kicks back and gets 20k in benefits.

However, I would say the majority who remain on unemployment and out of the workforce are there because they are too lazy to find a job.  There is no incentive to get a decent paying job.

Look at the numbers above. maybe not exact, but really close. Tell me someone with the wolf at the door has no incentive to replace their lost income. Are you serious? What you're doing is spinning it so that you don't have to extend a helping hand. By spinning the reality that these folks are innocent victims of the economic downturn into irresponsible bums too lazy to look for work you can turn your back. You can walk away without regret. After-all, they don't deserve any help! That about cover it from your POV?

$1200 a month is better than no-hundred dollars a month and will allow you to eat. 

Agree, which is the point of getting a benefit. But for a family of four it will do little more than provide basic food, and gas money. It's not going to replace an income.  Remember, the 25k guy doesn't even get that amount.

I think what we are trying to say is, if you have NO OTHER options, you get a job that pays the bills.  To do otherwise is weaksauce. 

Yes and no. If you lost your job would you take a a job a Wal- Mart for 8 bucks an hour? Not if it's going to cost you a chance of maintaining your current lifestyle.

I volunteer at homeless shelters and see it all of the time. 

Here is a good example.  My neighbor has been laid off for about five months.  On unemployment.  He is an IT guy.  An IT manager.  My home network wasn't working.  I went over asked him to look at it.  He came in, split the network, did some fancy smancy stuff and was in and out in less than thirty minutes.  Network works great.  I gave him $100 for his efforts.  Then asked him to come to the office.  Gave him another $150 (there were phones and other stuff to do too).  This was last week.

He now has 12 jobs booked.  Three are from businesses that are clients' of mine.  9 are from the neighborhood. 

Do you know what he's been doing the last five months?  Playing video games.  In fact, when I get home from WORK, he asks me to get online.  He doesn't realize that just because I come home at 4, doesn't mean I still don't have work to do.  I make dinner and then go back to the office.

Regardless, he knows his unemployment benefits will be ending soon.  And now he has a business.  Imagine that.

No, he doesn't have a business. He's using a skill to temporarily collect some  income. Most likely unreportable income. Unsustainable in the long run.

I'm not trying to be obtuse. I get it, desperation is the mother of invention. But using a skill to get some cash flow going is not a long term solution. It's unlikely that all he's doing is sitting around. If so, he is the exception, not the rule. In some fields getting one or two interviews a month is as good as it gets in this economy. Throw in a job fair or two, a few networking lunches, and maybe sometime taking online course to better his situation. No reason to sign up for Steven's Tranport to drive a chicken truck.

[/quote]

Jul 5, 2010 10:24 pm

Weekly unemployment benefits by state

State Maximum State Maximum

Alabama $255 Montana $407
Alaska $370 Nebraska $308
Arizona $240 Nevada $362
Arkansas $409 New Hampshire $427
California $450 New Jersey $584
Colorado $475 New Mexico $455
Connecticut $519 New York $405
Delaware $330 North Carolina $494
District of Columbia $359 North Dakota $385
Florida $275 Ohio $372
Georgia $330 Oklahoma $392
Hawaii $545 Oregon $482
Idaho $362 Pennsylvania $539
Illinois $385 Rhode Island $528
Indiana $390 South Carolina $326
Iowa $443 South Dakota $285
Kansas $423 Tennessee $275
Kentucky $415 Texas $378
Louisiana $284 Utah $444
Maine $496 Vermont $409
Maryland $380 Virginia $378
Massachusetts $628 Washington $541
Michigan $365 West Virginia $424
Minnesota $566 Wisconsin $363
Mississippi $230 Wyoming $387
Missouri $320

Jul 5, 2010 10:06 pm

Well you are being obtuse. Here is an example for you. One of my buddies, (as Kid Rock said, I slept in dumpsters and got high with Kings so I have friends of every size shape and color) that doesn’t like to work, lost his job just across the state line in KY. He applied for unemployment and receives the max which is about $400 a month. Every six weeks he submits online all of three places he submitted a resume to. That’s it next six weeks approved. TRUE STORY. I don't know what world you live in but in the real world the average income of a US citizen is $50,000 so at $400 per week unemployment will sustain the average worker for a while. And maximum benefits are attained below the average income range so unemployment benefits by design are not meant for above average income earners.

As for the question about what would I do if my income suddenly went to zero? I would adjust accordingly. What would you do if your income suddenly doubled? Go out and buy two of everything you have?

So let me get this right, you are saying it is ok for people to not have 6-12 months minimum cash reserve or are you saying we should feel sorry for them and subsidize their income since they do not? Neighbors in need should lean on charitable organizations and non-profits where I donate as a choice not through the government where I am forced to "donate"

I mean this in the nicest way BG when I say your comments lead me to believe you are totally out of touch with the real world.

Jul 6, 2010 10:13 am

If you can say "Welcome to McDonalds" you can get a job. 

Unemployment benefits are akin to welfare after 3 months.  People need to do what they have to do to survive.  If it involves taking a lower paying job, losing the house, the starbucks, and the fancy car so be it. 

Jul 6, 2010 11:25 am

Headline in today's local paper "Unemployment fraud on the rise."

I guess you guys are right, it's a huge problem. Not !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No fraud is good but taking the numbers apart here's how it breaksdown in my state:

Unemployment fraud is up 40% year to date. That looks bad, but  it is still below the 2008 level. 2008 was lower than the peak in 2006.

Most importantly, over the past five years less than 1% of benefits paid have been due to fraud. Fraud includes working while still collecting benefits, under the table income, and falsifying employment benefit forms. The state estimates that it recovers 2/3 of the benefits paid due to fraud. It also pursues those who defraud the state by filing criminal charges against them.

Ok, less than 1% of benefits paid are due to fraud - where's the problem?

Even if that number was doubled, is this a problem?

66 cents on every dollar lost to fraud is recovered.

Where's the problem?

There is no problem. Just a mean spirited group of people who want to deny help to those who need it.

ND - you are living on another planet if you honestly believe you would "adjust accordingly" if you lost your income. You really have no idea what that means. I find a comfortable naivety in your statements.  And about the six months reserve - you keep pounding that fiscally irresponsible button. That really gets you off the hook doesn't it? Ok, what happens after six months? Many of the long term unemployed are coming up on two years of unemployment. These people did everything right. Lived within their means, had six months reserve, now gone. What about them. Turn your back on them as well?

This isn't about feeling sorry for anyone. It's about helping your fellow man. Giving them a hand up. If you believe there is something wrong with that and it puts me out of touch, well then, so be it. I'm glad to be out of touch with the world of hate in which you live. And I mean that in the nicest way.

One aspect of this debate that i find fascinating is the roll of the Christian right. These people are Christians. Yet, as a group they are among first in line to deny entitlements. Apparently, they live compartmentalized lives where they don't see their actions of denial as juxtoposed to living the faith they profess. When i see one of these types with a bumper sticker that reads 'What would Jesus do?'" I have to think Jesus wouldn't turn his back on anyone in need, blowing them off as unworthy.

The truth is the entitlement debate is about politics. This confuses people. Gets them acting against their own best interest. In this case in a religious sense.

Jul 6, 2010 12:38 pm

I like Jesus, I just wish he'd hurry up and finish my taco!  I think it's cool he has a job and I doubt free loading idiots that suck off someone elses teet would stand up well in the view of the lord.

Jul 6, 2010 4:25 pm

How long should we give unemployment benefits?

How does extending unemployment benefits help get people back to work?

What happens if we don't extend unemployment past 4 months?

Jul 6, 2010 7:08 pm

That's it Navet aka BondGuy, blame it on the Christians. You know Jesus can create bread and fish so of course he would help the unfortunate out. But not me, I am just a poor sinner that lives WELL WITHIN my means. Trust me, if I can eat fucking beans and cornbread for years while I put myself through school, these lazy fuckers can collect aluminum cans or something. I know worst case scenario, my home and food is covered no matter what.

As for your state, who is really keeping up with the fraud numbers? The number of people on unemployment is overwhelming so no one has time to really investigate fraud.

I have a suggestion for you since I am in a giving mood tonight. How about unemployment benefits are exchanged for college credit hours or community service hours? Believe me when I say I am ALL about hand ups but not hand outs.

Apparently unlike you and your fancy ass boats, I am not leveraged at all! I can afford not to work another day, if i choose.

Jul 7, 2010 7:56 am

I bought a $120k house in a nice, safe neighborhood (it's worth about $180 now).  I drive a Compact, non-gas guzzling car.

We cook most of our meals, and we buy our groceries clipping coupons. 

I net over six figs.  I'll never have to worry about unemployment (of course, I'm self-employed). 

People like me did everything right. 

For the record, I'm guessing BG is not leveraged at all and probably pays cash for everything.  He's been in the business a long time and I'm guessing has been hitting seven figures for quite some time.

Regardless, I can disagree with him and others without making personal attacks.  Let's try and keep this civil.

Jul 7, 2010 8:58 am

ND - I wasn't trying to get under your skin. Just an observation that many Christians seem not to live their faith. How does one profess to be a follower of Jesus and then deny help to those in need? And, when you bring it up they get in your face about it. I readily admit to not being the world's best Christian. But even i know there are no qualifiers in the Bible. Regardless of your means you help people.

You have many ill concieved beliefs about the unemployed. Lazy Fuckers being one of them. And, your convinced that this group is lacking fiscal responsibility. Generally, not true. The unemployed are a cross section of american workers. Some are very hard working, some not so much, with the middle ground covering the average.

 I find it hard to believe that there is anyplace in this country where one could kick back on unemployment benefits and get a tan. From what you guys are saying, it's doable in your neck of the woods. No doable here in the high cost Northeast.

As for my leveraged fancy sailboat something you should know. In the best of times boat financing is a crap shoot. Even withh a plus 800 FICO, big stable income, and plenty of skin in the game(DP), the average person gets screwed when financing a boat. For that reason it's not advised under any circumstances.

When it comes to financing a bluewater sailboat it gets worse. The term bluewater means the boat is capable of ocean passage making. Thus an owner could weigh anchor and sail away from their responsibilities including the bank that holds the note.  For this reason obtaining financing on such a vessel is practically impossible. More so these days. The boat I'm trying to buy ( I thought it was a done deal but there's a hiccup on the seller's side) is just such a boat. That said, in this environment it's unlikely i could get financed for the boat. On bluewater sailboats in this price range it's pretty much cash is king. Most buyers are dreamers who have sold their homes  for a shot at living the dream.  They put that cash into the purchase. This reduces their cost to living/sailing expenses and puts the adventure withing range of a surprising number of average people. I'm sorry the boat bothers you so much.

RW - We need to get over the hump on the recovery. Creating an underclass of poor isn't going to do that. Unfortunately, if the economy doesn't pick up the answer is probably something like parts of an FDR like New Deal. Here's a fact - the infrastructure in this country is crumbling. Massive public works project to rebuild it ? Put millions to work and have something of great value to show for it.

About this thread - summer duldrums - I long for heated debate with Mikebutler222. Entertainment!!!

Jul 7, 2010 12:00 pm

Ignore ND, Bond Guy. He's just pissed because the first person he sees every day is his ugly cousin..er...wife...OK same thing. And I don't ever seeing the words "lazy fu-ker" in the bible. Keep preaching ND...btw...maybe you should consider sheep?

Jul 7, 2010 12:02 pm

Back to the Christians - My Bible tells me to help the widows and the orphans.  It tells me to help the poor and the needy.  It also says that if a man shall not work, neither shall he eat (2 Thessalonians 3:10).  I think this is where most Christians lose their giving spirit.  I can quote you all kinds of verses from Proverbs that talk about being lazy. 

BG - you're comment about the WWJD bumper stickers makes me think that Jesus would say get off your butt and go get a job.  There are way too many verses in the Bible that reference laziness, slothfulness, and work for me to think otherwise.  

Now, I also know that a lot of churches are willing to help those that come and ask for it.  I know my church has a fund, not a small one BTW, specifically designated for people who have lost their jobs and can't pay for the basics of life.  Every church I've ever been a part of has a similar fund.  In addition to that, most churches support some sort of shelter or food pantry to help people in need. 

I think there is a huge difference between the Biblical command to help the poor and needy and being OK with extending unemployment benefits. 

Jul 7, 2010 12:22 pm

Stupidity is by birth, ignorance is by choice. Right now, most (and I say the vast majority) of unemployed want to find work more than anything. What is available right now usually pays much less and has no benefits(can you say universal healthcare?). Most people either have been out of work in this economy or know several people who are struggling. To call these struggling people "lazy fu-kers" is not only untrue, it is profoundly stupid. As usual, republicans are on the wrong side of this issue. These unemployed, their friends and their family will vote accordingly. The good news is that it will lead to a progressive rennaisance, in my opinion long overdue. So keep calling these folks names, neocon nazis. Every time I hear you bornagins say "lazy fu-ker" I hear the word  "victory".

Jul 7, 2010 1:50 pm

I'll never understand political idealogues.

I like how both sides are using words like "vast majority" and "most".  How in the world do you know?

Do you work at an unemployment office?

If you have anectodotal experience, then fine.  But I would venture to guess most of us don't.  I simply have some examples of people I know (or who are clients). 

As for the comment, "most people want to work", I think this is false.  This, of course is my opinion.  But how many people have worked in a corporate environment?  How many of the people there actuallly WORK?

Not many.  In fact, I'm guessing 20% of the people do most of the work, like anywhere else. 

So, you are saying these people want to work, I think you are meaning to say that they want a "job".  And I think that most people can agree on that.