Those nasty non compete contracts

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Jun 2, 2006 10:15 am

Anyone had any recent successful experience getting out of a non compete with training cost reimbursement?  Seems like the non compete is a no issue, but they can go after you for the training cost.


any recent successes?

Jun 4, 2006 8:29 pm

I would consult with an attorney. If your attorney decides you're locked-in, then you could always negotiate the amount owed with your former B/D. Example: "Plead poverty and offer to settle for 25% of the amount owed in 180 monthly installments, interest free. Otherwise, you'll fight it." Who knows, they might accept it.


In the mid-90's, I successfully fought Dean Witter (DW) over training costs, when I revealed to their attorney that I wasn't made aware of the existence of an employment contract until I had quit my bank job, sold my house, moved across state, and showed up for work at DW the first day. By then, I was obligated to sign whatever DW threw in front of me. I alluded, to the DW attorney, that this smacked of fraud and DW backed off.


To this day, I remember the sick feeling I got when the DW branch manager said, "Oh yeah, sign this."

Jun 5, 2006 9:44 pm

I'm not an attorney, so please do not absolutely hold me to this, but I was a finance/pre-law for my Bachelors.  The precedent set is that no compete agreements are only binding if reasonable.  For example, if your no compete says you can not work for another bank, wirehouse, or financial institution for 10 years, this is unreasonable.  On the other hand, if your no compete says that you can not work for another wirehouse within 50 miles for 3 years, this is a little more reasonable.  The best thing to do is go to findlaw.com and try to find recent decisions in your state (or federal, though I doubt there are any instances where federal courts hear no compete cases).  You may be able to find a case similar to yours and it is very reasonable that your outcome will follow precedent.  After investigating on your own, if you feel like you want to get the no compete agreement thrown out THEN get an attorney.  Remember it is going to cost a few hundred dollars to even ask an attorney this question.  Good luck!

Jun 5, 2006 10:11 pm

maybeeeeee.


Whats going on???? I havent seen the rah rah rah Ray Jay posts from you lately... You thinking of jumping ship???

Jun 7, 2006 10:24 am

Good topic - I don't think a lot of people think about this when they 'sign away'.  If you choose to leave the company, who put you through the training, for another firm - It's always best to 'negotiate' with your new employer to have them pay that expense from your contract.  Otherwise - you're going to get stuck with the bill.

Jun 7, 2006 2:04 pm
doberman:

I would consult with an attorney. If your attorney decides you're locked-in, then you could always negotiate the amount owed with your former B/D. Example: "Plead poverty and offer to settle for 25% of the amount owed in 180 monthly installments, interest free. Otherwise, you'll fight it." Who knows, they might accept it.


In the mid-90's, I successfully fought Dean Witter (DW) over training costs, when I revealed to their attorney that I wasn't made aware of the existence of an employment contract until I had quit my bank job, sold my house, moved across state, and showed up for work at DW the first day. By then, I was obligated to sign whatever DW threw in front of me. I alluded, to the DW attorney, that this smacked of fraud and DW backed off.


To this day, I remember the sick feeling I got when the DW branch manager said, "Oh yeah, sign this."




Dobie, that is some dynamite sh**.  Love it.


Hey I will stop looking when I am dead.  But I know the grass always looks greener.

Jun 8, 2006 3:31 pm
blarmston:

maybeeeeee.

Whats going on???? I havent seen the rah rah rah Ray Jay posts from you lately... You thinking of jumping ship???


I was thinking the same when I saw this...and not to give mayeeeeeeee a hard time about it or anything...I'm just curious.  My guess is that as with most firms, the negatives don't usually manifest when you are a brand new hire, but perhaps mayeeeeeee is seeing some negatives that other new reps looking at her firm should know about.  I know that the RJ indies are upset about the changes in annuity payouts and inactivity fees, but I'm curious what might be afoot at the employee side of RJ...


Care to enlighten us yet, maybeeeeeeee?

Jun 8, 2006 11:23 pm

Is anyone familiar with the Ed Jones policy on reimbursement of training costs?  Does it have any effect if you quit before you earn your "can sell date"??????

Jun 10, 2006 9:10 am
stuckatjones:

Is anyone familiar with the Ed Jones policy on reimbursement of training costs?  Does it have any effect if you quit before you earn your "can sell date"??????



I used to be at Jones.  Find your contract and read it.  Or call Human Resources and request a copy "just for your records."  It lays it out very specifically.  It has to do with your registration date which I believe is your can-sell date.  Go to www.nasd.com and see if you are registered in their broker lookup.  If not, you are not registered yet.


Read

Jun 12, 2006 9:23 am

Really, I don't have more to say at this time.  Like I said, I will stop looking when I am dead.


My goal now remains the same as when I started.  I want to be at a company that lets me do the best for my customer.  I want to be able to offer them solutions from multiple providers.  AND, I want to build my business as quickly as possible.


So, wherever I can do that, I will.  I will NEVER do one thing for a client's portfolio that I would not do in my own.  Granted, their needs may be different than mine.  But, I believe in treating others as you would want to be treated.  NOTHING wrong with being hugely profitable, just so long as you can look yourself in the mirror at the end of the day.


It does not matter that "everyone does it".  What matters is what YOU do and how you treat people.


And, don't kid yourself, it does matter.

Jun 15, 2006 8:15 am

I'm not an attorney, but how's this for a scenario;

Wait until your firm is sued for trainee overtime. After they lose that suit, you are reclassified as a non-exempt employee. As a non-exempt employee of the company, especially in an employment-at-will state (if you are in one), it's not likely that you can be held liable for training costs.

Furthermore, once your employment classification changes, I kind of wonder if any of the initial agreements signed still hold water.

Anyone with a background in employment law care to speculate?

Jun 15, 2006 8:11 pm

josephus:I'm not an attorney, but how's this for a scenario;

Wait until your firm is sued for trainee overtime. After they lose that suit, you are reclassified as a non-exempt employee. As a non-exempt employee of the company, especially in an employment-at-will state (if you are in one), it's not likely that you can be held liable for training costs.

Furthermore, once your employment classification changes, I kind of wonder if any of the initial agreements signed still hold water. 

------------------------------------------


Sneaky, sneaky, sneaky...I like it! 

Jun 20, 2006 9:12 am
doberman:

josephus:I'm not an attorney, but how's this for a scenario;

Wait until your firm is sued for trainee overtime. After they lose that suit, you are reclassified as a non-exempt employee. As a non-exempt employee of the company, especially in an employment-at-will state (if you are in one), it's not likely that you can be held liable for training costs.

Furthermore, once your employment classification changes, I kind of wonder if any of the initial agreements signed still hold water. 

------------------------------------------


Sneaky, sneaky, sneaky...I like it! 



Me TOO!  You mean 8 am to 8 pm M-F and Tues night and Saturday mornings are not normal?  The dopes even put that in writing here.


Honestly, I don't want to leave, but like I said, I am always looking.

Jun 21, 2006 12:41 pm
maybeeeeeeee:

You mean 8 am to 8 pm M-F and Tues night and Saturday mornings are not normal?  The dopes even put that in writing here.

Honestly, I don't want to leave, but like I said, I am always looking.


I was in last night until 11, but I take Thursdays off in the summer.  I haven't seen a Saturday outside of tax season.  Yes, 70-hour weeks year-round are probably a bit out of the norm...

Jun 23, 2006 4:26 pm
maybeeeeeeee:
doberman:

josephus:I'm not an attorney, but how's this for a scenario;

Wait until your firm is sued for trainee overtime. After they lose that suit, you are reclassified as a non-exempt employee. As a non-exempt employee of the company, especially in an employment-at-will state (if you are in one), it's not likely that you can be held liable for training costs.

Furthermore, once your employment classification changes, I kind of wonder if any of the initial agreements signed still hold water. 

------------------------------------------


Sneaky, sneaky, sneaky...I like it! 



Me TOO!  You mean 8 am to 8 pm M-F and Tues night and Saturday mornings are not normal?  The dopes even put that in writing here.


Honestly, I don't want to leave, but like I said, I am always looking.



Does iit occur to you that the Ray Jay IT guys can tell managment exactly what workstations are being used to address what websites?


Using this forum to whine about your firm is asking for trouble, using it to explain that you're leaving is begging for it.


Do you suppose somebody at RJ watches what this girl is saying?


Why has the girlish enthusiasm turned to this so quickly?


Jul 5, 2006 3:20 pm

hey NASD dinosaur,


NASDR almost makes it a requirement for ALL firms to "supervise" their peoples activities. Just remember it's your firm's technology that is overloaded and can't provide email .... otherwise it crashes like it did around Thanksgiving '04 .... boy that must have been fun.

Jul 5, 2006 4:31 pm

I'm not an attorney either, but here's what I've seen from a recruiter's standpoint.

Firms rarely enforce this unless your departure is adversarial or you abuse the system.  Interpretations of this "line" very greatly, but in most cases it's a lot of trouble to enforce this kind of agreement.
If you go to another big firm, that firm will usually indemnify you against claims of this sort from your former brokerage.  This kind of agreement can be negotiated at all career levels.
Laws vary from state to state.  Some states are stricter than others.  And the case law in some states is very vague.  This is why it's important to get your own legal counsel from an attorney who actually works in the industry.  There are a couple of them on this board if you're interested...
The hiring branch manager can be a great source of information regarding what techniques are effective when transitioning clients, but that is not a substitute for your own lawyer.




Jul 5, 2006 7:00 pm
Indyone:
maybeeeeeeee:

You mean 8 am to 8 pm M-F and Tues night and Saturday mornings are not normal?  The dopes even put that in writing here.

Honestly, I don't want to leave, but like I said, I am always looking.


I was in last night until 11, but I take Thursdays off in the summer.  I haven't seen a Saturday outside of tax season.  Yes, 70-hour weeks year-round are probably a bit out of the norm...



For a vet yes, but not for a rookie, Indy.  She's not even a year out of the  box yet.  Gotta put in the time in the beginning!

Jul 5, 2006 11:56 pm

I'll count myself lucky, then, Joe, as I was never asked to put in those kind of hours.  I probably averaged 55 hours a week with a little more during busy season and less during the summer. That could be a bank difference, I suppose, but the kind of hours May-B described seems a little excessive when it's expected year-round...