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Jul 10, 2008 9:00 pm

I’ll add one more thing.  All firms should accept other firms paperwork for withdrawl or if they insist on “their forms”, those withdrawl/surrender forms be available on the internet.

Jul 10, 2008 9:05 pm

[quote=theironhorse]i love the insurance agents who drop a 300,000 ticket into a VA one year and then take the 10% each year after that and go to another VA or A share funds, all under the guise of diversification.

also love the ROTH VA's i see with monthly auto contributions by a 28 year old single guy. or the 150,000 VUL being funded at $50-$75/month. when i joined my prior b/d i inherited roughly 50-100 annuity contracts all sold by the previous agent.  slowly but surely i saw most of these contracts being moved away, all usually taking 3-8% cdsc's.  most were invested in af subaccounts, but were being moved due to "poor performance" according to current policyholders.  always killed me how policyholders would accept a cdsc after being promised greener pastures elsewhere.[/quote]

You've just proven yourself to be a liar. We don't "see these contracts being moved away." They are in our book of business one day and gone the next. We can't see whether or not it was surrendered or if the client only did an agent change.
Jul 10, 2008 9:20 pm

[quote=anonymous]

8.  ANYTHING that has ANY ties on rate/surrender/etc. to the stock market (read EIA's) is a security.

By this definition, is a bond no longer a security?  I assume that you don't mean that.  In reality, based upon this definition, virtually everything is a security.   What determines the rates on fixed insurance products?  The general account of the insurance company.  This general account invests in securities.  Where does money that get invested in fixed annuities go?  Primarily the general account of the insurance company.  Where does the money for an EIA go?  Primarily the general account of the insurance company.   The same can be said for CD's, etc.   An EIA is a fixed annuity.  It simply has a different crediting method than other fixed products.  If an EIA is a security, all fixed products are securities.   Maybe I am slightly overstating it, but if you product goes up or down based on whether the stock market goes up or down, it should be regulated as a security.  EIA's came into existence in order to allow know-nothing insurance agents to sell something to their victims -err clients, without proper license or regulation.  They are getting by on a technical loophole, and it should be closed.   9.  Prohibit 100% upfront commission on annuities.  It doesn't have to be like a C share mutual fund, but if one of the payout options is 8% upfront and then no trail, guess who gets no service?  Give the broker some incentive for providing continuing advice.  I see these people all the time, their broker sold them a $200,000 annuity, and now won't return their call.  Even the $200 provided by a .1 trail would help, I would be ok with a .25 trail like on mutual funds.   What kind of incentive does the broker have to give continuing advice if there is a trail?  He gets paid regardless.  The commissions are for selling the product.  The broker doesn't get paid to give advice.  The last thing that we need is more rules.  Rules don't stop crooks.  They just hurt the honest people.    The incentive to service is that if I don't service the account, someone else will take it over and get paid to do so.  I guess this leads to #10, commissions must be transferrable on insurance products to the servicing agent, as they are on security products.    BIGGEST problem with all annuities (specifically EIA's and income riders) are that almost every client/prospect/friend, etc that I talk to ... The last time that I checked, annuities don't speak.  The problem isn't with the product.  The problem is with those who are selling them and those who are buying them without understanding what they are buying.   Many of the worst examples are EIA slingers who don't even have a securities license.  This wouldn't solve all problems, but it would certainly help.   [/quote]
Jul 10, 2008 9:39 pm

[quote=EDJ4now][quote=anonymous]

8.  ANYTHING that has ANY ties on rate/surrender/etc. to the stock market (read EIA's) is a security.

By this definition, is a bond no longer a security?  I assume that you don't mean that.  In reality, based upon this definition, virtually everything is a security.   What determines the rates on fixed insurance products?  The general account of the insurance company.  This general account invests in securities.  Where does money that get invested in fixed annuities go?  Primarily the general account of the insurance company.  Where does the money for an EIA go?  Primarily the general account of the insurance company.   The same can be said for CD's, etc.   An EIA is a fixed annuity.  It simply has a different crediting method than other fixed products.  If an EIA is a security, all fixed products are securities.   Maybe I am slightly overstating it, but if you product goes up or down based on whether the stock market goes up or down, it should be regulated as a security.  EIA's came into existence in order to allow know-nothing insurance agents to sell something to their victims -err clients, without proper license or regulation.  They are getting by on a technical loophole, and it should be closed.   9.  Prohibit 100% upfront commission on annuities.  It doesn't have to be like a C share mutual fund, but if one of the payout options is 8% upfront and then no trail, guess who gets no service?  Give the broker some incentive for providing continuing advice.  I see these people all the time, their broker sold them a $200,000 annuity, and now won't return their call.  Even the $200 provided by a .1 trail would help, I would be ok with a .25 trail like on mutual funds.   What kind of incentive does the broker have to give continuing advice if there is a trail?  He gets paid regardless.  The commissions are for selling the product.  The broker doesn't get paid to give advice.  The last thing that we need is more rules.  Rules don't stop crooks.  They just hurt the honest people.    The incentive to service is that if I don't service the account, someone else will take it over and get paid to do so.  I guess this leads to #10, commissions must be transferrable on insurance products to the servicing agent, as they are on security products.    BIGGEST problem with all annuities (specifically EIA's and income riders) are that almost every client/prospect/friend, etc that I talk to ... The last time that I checked, annuities don't speak.  The problem isn't with the product.  The problem is with those who are selling them and those who are buying them without understanding what they are buying.   Many of the worst examples are EIA slingers who don't even have a securities license.  This wouldn't solve all problems, but it would certainly help.   [/quote] [/quote]

Whoever wrote the blue part is dumb.
Jul 10, 2008 9:57 pm

Maybe I am slightly overstating it, but if you product goes up or down based on whether the stock market goes up or down, it should be regulated as a security.

  I'd agree with this.  What you are writing doesn't describe an EIA or any fixed product.  Fixed products go up in value.  Securities go up and down in value.  There is not investment risk in fixed products.  There is not investment risk in EIA's.   EIA's came into existence in order to allow know-nothing insurance agents to sell something to their victims -err clients, without proper license or regulation.  They are getting by on a technical loophole, and it should be closed.   There is nothing technical about this.  The client's money is not in the market.  It's not an investment.   The incentive to service is that if I don't service the account, someone else will take it over and get paid to do so.  I guess this leads to #10, commissions must be transferrable on insurance products to the servicing agent, as they are on security products.    I'm a free market kind of guy.  We don't need regulation that says how people should be paid.   Many of the worst examples are EIA slingers who don't even have a securities license.  This wouldn't solve all problems, but it would certainly help.    So, the answer is to punish honest people who sell these products?     
Jul 11, 2008 4:50 am

[quote=Philo Kvetch] [quote=not_applicable]

Wow.  I didn't even know that you could charge for a house visit...

[/quote]

If we could, Edward D. Jones would already be doing it. (Of course, the brokers wouldn't see a dime of it.)[/quote]   How much per door knock???  What if I knock more than three times???  YESS!!!
Jul 11, 2008 7:04 am

deekay posted:

1.  Disclose, in bold font, commission paid to brokers on annuities that a client must sing off on.  Does your supermarket tell you their mark up and profit on the stuff they sell?  No, supermarkets don't.  But you also don't hold an ear of corn for 7 years with CDSC's if you don't.  There is a direct correlation of the level of commissions to returns on investment long term.  The client should know what the commission is when agents say, "You don't pay me anything Mr and Mrs client, the insurance company pays me for finding them business." 3.  Disclose, in bold font, the probability that a fixed annuity bought from a bank or insurance agent with a great rate the first year will drop near the floor the next year and have the client sign off on it.  So, you are suggesting insurance companies predict what future interest rates will be?  Are you retarded?  Please name an annuity that has not dropped substantially from the initial teaser rate?  I would love to know of one, because I have seen a hundred that dropped, and NONE that have stayed the same or were raised. 6.  Reduce the surrender period on all annuities to 5 years or less and reduce the CDSC.  Why is liquidity a good thing for everybody?  You give more liquidity, you lose guarantees.  Simple as that.  Your client already pays for these riders by tacking on BIP's to the overall contract cost.  How would guarantees be effected if the client is already paying for them?  If you are concerned with a client switching out of this annuity short term, maybe it isn't the best investment for them at the time you sell it to them? 7.  Outlaw all "Senior Designations" as well as "scare tactic" seminars.  Emotion gets a client to act.  Logic does not.  As far as designations go, there is no guarantee a CFP will be any more or less honest than one who has, say, a CSA.  Nice try.   Wow, if this is how you sell these products, maybe you need an ethics refresher course.  If you are using emotion to get a client to purchase an investment, you will have even more success using information about the investment that is objective, show the client how it fits in their overall portfolio, and describe the benefits of the investment while pointing out there are a some weaknesses.  Managing a clients expectations will always provide you with a much better long term client.  Taking a weekend course to get a Senior designation so you can put it on a business card is very dishonest.  Even though there is no guarantee of honesty, at least with the CFP there is substantial coursework, a 2-day supervised test, a background check, and CE. For someone who seems to have been in the business for a while, you have no clue how it really works.  Not that I'm shocked at all about it, but this boilerplate complaining has no real basis for discussion.  If you still think I have no clue, read a few of my previous posts.  It's obvious to me, as well as most of the participants on this forum that annuity slinging is your primary occupation.  Just a suggestion, get your series 7 and study up on some different sales tactics.
Jul 11, 2008 1:12 pm

Rankstocks, are you messing with us? Noone can be as stupid as you present yourself to be. 

Jul 11, 2008 2:18 pm

One nice thing I am seeing with these teaser rate annuities at least in Wisconsin anyway, is that if the insurance co decides to lower the fixed rate, the client has a  30 day window to get rid of the contract free of surrender.  The only problem with this is the client and most brokers don’t know about this because its usually buried in the back of the prospectus.

Jul 11, 2008 3:56 pm

[quote=Hobby Bull] [quote=theironhorse]i love the insurance agents who drop a 300,000 ticket into a VA one year and then take the 10% each year after that and go to another VA or A share funds, all under the guise of diversification.

also love the ROTH VA's i see with monthly auto contributions by a 28 year old single guy. or the 150,000 VUL being funded at $50-$75/month. when i joined my prior b/d i inherited roughly 50-100 annuity contracts all sold by the previous agent.  slowly but surely i saw most of these contracts being moved away, all usually taking 3-8% cdsc's.  most were invested in af subaccounts, but were being moved due to "poor performance" according to current policyholders.  always killed me how policyholders would accept a cdsc after being promised greener pastures elsewhere.[/quote]

You've just proven yourself to be a liar. We don't "see these contracts being moved away." They are in our book of business one day and gone the next. We can't see whether or not it was surrendered or if the client only did an agent change.
[/quote]   you are a complete idiot or jackass, whichever you prefer.  if someone was replacing a variable annuity on my books, i was notified via email, asked whether I wanted to try to "save" it by taking the allowed time frame to process, which was 30 days I believe, and I knew well in advance if an annuity was leaving.  But nice try.  It might work differently for annuities sold via wirehouse, where a change of agent (as you call it, but is actually a change of b/d) can be done, but when sold through an agency, such as met, ny life, nml, etc you cannot do an agent change, so someone gets notification.  Try to change agent on an NML VA (which you cannot do anyway), or simply replace it, and see if your client gets a call from the NML agent trying to keep it on the books.  Maybe you've just proven yourself to have no experience and willing to speak out his/her ass on topics they don't understand.
Jul 11, 2008 4:00 pm

And seriously, if someone moved an annuity away from you, taking a surrender charge in the process, you never received a final statement showing this?  The CDSC shows up right on the statement.

Jul 11, 2008 4:25 pm

Well so much for this thread!

  It was going ok untill people started putting others down!    
Jul 11, 2008 4:31 pm

Sorry greenbacks, never had words with anyone on this board, but figured when someone comes right out and calls me a liar and has no idea what they are talking about I need to clarify.  I do apologize for carrying on.

Jul 11, 2008 5:34 pm

[quote=theironhorse][quote=Hobby Bull] [quote=theironhorse]i love the insurance agents who drop a 300,000 ticket into a VA one year and then take the 10% each year after that and go to another VA or A share funds, all under the guise of diversification.

also love the ROTH VA's i see with monthly auto contributions by a 28 year old single guy. or the 150,000 VUL being funded at $50-$75/month. when i joined my prior b/d i inherited roughly 50-100 annuity contracts all sold by the previous agent.  slowly but surely i saw most of these contracts being moved away, all usually taking 3-8% cdsc's.  most were invested in af subaccounts, but were being moved due to "poor performance" according to current policyholders.  always killed me how policyholders would accept a cdsc after being promised greener pastures elsewhere.[/quote]

You've just proven yourself to be a liar. We don't "see these contracts being moved away." They are in our book of business one day and gone the next. We can't see whether or not it was surrendered or if the client only did an agent change.
[/quote]   you are a complete idiot or jackass, whichever you prefer.  if someone was replacing a variable annuity on my books, i was notified via email, asked whether I wanted to try to "save" it by taking the allowed time frame to process, which was 30 days I believe, and I knew well in advance if an annuity was leaving.  But nice try.  It might work differently for annuities sold via wirehouse, where a change of agent (as you call it, but is actually a change of b/d) can be done, but when sold through an agency, such as met, ny life, nml, etc you cannot do an agent change, so someone gets notification.  Try to change agent on an NML VA (which you cannot do anyway), or simply replace it, and see if your client gets a call from the NML agent trying to keep it on the books.  Maybe you've just proven yourself to have no experience and willing to speak out his/her ass on topics they don't understand.[/quote]

You are a liar. You don't have an insurance license. People who don't have the license don't inherit annuity clients.

Jackass will be fine.
Jul 11, 2008 5:35 pm

[quote=theironhorse]Sorry greenbacks, never had words with anyone on this board, but figured when someone comes right out and calls me a liar and has no idea what they are talking about I need to clarify.  I do apologize for carrying on.[/quote]

I accept your apology.

Jul 11, 2008 6:13 pm

[quote=rankstocks]deekay posted:

1.  Disclose, in bold font, commission paid to brokers on annuities that a client must sing off on.  Does your supermarket tell you their mark up and profit on the stuff they sell?  No, supermarkets don't.  But you also don't hold an ear of corn for 7 years with CDSC's if you don't.  There is a direct correlation of the level of commissions to returns on investment long term.  The client should know what the commission is when agents say, "You don't pay me anything Mr and Mrs client, the insurance company pays me for finding them business."   If the client doesn't see it, and the vehicle is appropriate and has all the pros and cons disclosed, what does it matter?  In fact, I have had my fair share of clients say to me, "Are you sure you're making money on this deal?  I want to make sure you're well-compensated."  Why?  Because I do that good of a job for them.   3.  Disclose, in bold font, the probability that a fixed annuity bought from a bank or insurance agent with a great rate the first year will drop near the floor the next year and have the client sign off on it.  So, you are suggesting insurance companies predict what future interest rates will be?  Are you retarded?  Please name an annuity that has not dropped substantially from the initial teaser rate?  I would love to know of one, because I have seen a hundred that dropped, and NONE that have stayed the same or were raised.   Current Yield Annuities.  NEXT!   6.  Reduce the surrender period on all annuities to 5 years or less and reduce the CDSC.  Why is liquidity a good thing for everybody?  You give more liquidity, you lose guarantees.  Simple as that.  Your client already pays for these riders by tacking on BIP's to the overall contract cost.  How would guarantees be effected if the client is already paying for them?  If you are concerned with a client switching out of this annuity short term, maybe it isn't the best investment for them at the time you sell it to them?   The longer the surrender period, the more certainty the insurance company has.  As a result, they can offer stronger guarantees to a policy holder.  How hard a concept is that?   7.  Outlaw all "Senior Designations" as well as "scare tactic" seminars.  Emotion gets a client to act.  Logic does not.  As far as designations go, there is no guarantee a CFP will be any more or less honest than one who has, say, a CSA.  Nice try.   Wow, if this is how you sell these products, maybe you need an ethics refresher course.  If you are using emotion to get a client to purchase an investment, you will have even more success using information about the investment that is objective, show the client how it fits in their overall portfolio, and describe the benefits of the investment while pointing out there are a some weaknesses.  Managing a clients expectations will always provide you with a much better long term client.  Taking a weekend course to get a Senior designation so you can put it on a business card is very dishonest.  Even though there is no guarantee of honesty, at least with the CFP there is substantial coursework, a 2-day supervised test, a background check, and CE.   FTR, I am not a CSA.  Nor a CFP.  I don't have alpabet soup after my name.  That is by choice.  I stand by my body of work, not some initials on my business card.  I get my clients to take action on ideas and concepts that make sense for them and me.  I don't take "Let me think about it" from my clients.  And I don't need some 50-page report that most CFP's use for me to convince a client to take action.   For someone who seems to have been in the business for a while, you have no clue how it really works.  Not that I'm shocked at all about it, but this boilerplate complaining has no real basis for discussion.  If you still think I have no clue, read a few of my previous posts.  It's obvious to me, as well as most of the participants on this forum that annuity slinging is your primary occupation.  Just a suggestion, get your series 7 and study up on some different sales tactics.   Oh really?  I just looked at my book of business.  Guess what?  5% of my book is annuity (mostly VA).  And I have my Series 7.  And 66.  And life/health/variable annuity license.  Strike three, buck-o.  My sales tactics are ethical in every way.  Just because you can't sell yourself out of a wet paper bag doesn't give you the right to point accusatory fingers at those of us who can sell.  By the way, since when is having the 7 the end-all be-all in this business?  The 7 is a joke.    [/quote]
Jul 11, 2008 7:42 pm

Nice work D, nice work.

Jul 11, 2008 8:22 pm

OK, what is (beyond the obvious) a currient yield annuity.  I thought I'd heard just about every term imaginable with annuities, but that's a new one.  

Jul 11, 2008 9:31 pm

Sounds like rate for term like the Hartford CRC.

Jul 11, 2008 10:28 pm

[quote=Spaceman Spiff]

OK, what is (beyond the obvious) a currient yield annuity.  I thought I'd heard just about every term imaginable with annuities, but that's a new one.  

[/quote]   It's a fixed annuity who's rates are tied to overall interest rates.