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Apr 19, 2006 3:06 pm

anyone start working at an independent company
or
start working with one or two established guys who went independent

(i dont think there are any more situations of people STARTING off as independents, because it is nearly impossible to go "solo" indepentent)

how did you like it, would you of chosen a different path from the beginning.. etc (basically I want the life story )
------------------------------------------------------------ ------
Anyone went from a big wire house (ML SB MS) to an independent COMPANY?
is there a big difference in return, since you are still working for a company(someone else) or is it mainly for stress relief and just a lil bit more money

Apr 19, 2006 3:50 pm

Brotha...we (my rep and I) are from Edward Jones and left the Stepford community about 6 months ago. It's been a great transition, the only thing is, you HAVE to be prepared for the work it involves.


The initial leap is stressful, there's this sense of urgency that if you don't hurry and transfer all your clients right now, you'll loose them. You're working on/with a system you're not familiar with, and you feel out of your element. You don't know how much support you can count on from your new b/d.  Add the stess of having a "do not compete" clause hanging over your head, and worrying about coloring outside of the lines there.


A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.

Apr 19, 2006 6:36 pm

Nicole, that might have been the best analogy I've ever heard for the difference between working for the man or being him (or her). :)


brothaK, keep in mind that you can join an existing independent office where you'll negotiate an override with the existing branch manager, but the clients you develop would be yours to keep when you finally are able to qualify to be your own branch manager, whether you stuck with the same B/D or decided a different one would be a better fit for you.


One of the big differences is that you're not working FOR the broker/dealer as an independent.  You are your own company.  You're basically giving them 10% (or whatever) of your commissions to support your practice.  Just like any alliance either one of you can terminate the relationship at any time, however the CLIENTS are yours, and the B/D isn't going to fight you for them (as opposed to Ed Jones, Merrill, etc where the clients are theirs).


If you'd like to start as an independent (granted, someone else would still have to be your Office of Supervisory Jurisdiction), make sure you find an OSJ that's willing to take the time to train you.  Many B/D's would be able to steer you to offices in your area that are looking to train new reps.


GOOD LUCK!

Apr 20, 2006 9:17 am
Devoted SA:

A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.



I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Apr 20, 2006 9:23 am

FreedomLvr:

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />


One of the big differences is that you're not working FOR the broker/dealer as an independent.  You are your own company.  You're basically giving them 10% (or whatever) of your commissions to support your practice. 



Let's see how long that relationship lasts. In this compliance environment B/Ds are going to be willing for long to be eligible for big “failure to supervise” fines for the actions of “indys” they have OSJ responsibility for while trying to have a “hands off” attitude about business practices within the indy. This is a conflict that’s been a non-issue in the past, but will be one very, very soon.


 

FreedomLvr:

Just like any alliance either one of you can terminate the relationship at any time, however the CLIENTS are yours, and the B/D isn't going to fight you for them (as opposed to Ed Jones, Merrill, etc where the clients are theirs).



That’s a significant difference, except the clients don’t “belong” to Merrill, or SB or MS, as the courts have pointed out, but they do have the right to contest you for them should you leave.


Apr 20, 2006 10:25 am
mikebutler222:
Devoted SA:

A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.

I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them.


I thought it was a fine analogy.  Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent.  Heck I can even use the one good Morgan Stanley fund I've found in my SAM platfom. 


I'm sure you've got some products and strategies that my clients are clamoring for...that's why I lose so many to Morgan Stanley...

Apr 20, 2006 11:07 am

Let's see how long that relationship lasts. In this compliance environment B/Ds are going to be willing for long to be eligible for big “failure to supervise” fines for the actions of “indys” they have OSJ responsibility for while trying to have a “hands off” attitude about business practices within the indy. This is a conflict that’s been a non-issue in the past, but will be one very, very soon.


Mike has a point here.  I understand that there is a rule proposed or actually in place to get rid of our ability to do bulk transfers if we would move from one B/D to another.  It also seems that every day there are more and more compliance procedures that take up more and more of our time.  My OSJ has told me of more changes coming down the pipe in the office inspections and mandatory compliance meetings. 

Apr 20, 2006 11:11 am

Indyone:
mikebutler222:
Devoted SA:

A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />


I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them.


I thought it was a fine analogy.  Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent.  Heck I can even use the one good Morgan Stanley fund I've found in my SAM platfom. 



I’ve done extensive research the past few years into indy platforms as I consider going that route. As for finding one that gives me everything a better wirehouse can give, there isn’t one. Someday there may be and the closest one I’ve seen currently is Wachovia’s. I’m not interested in a wizzing-contest, and anyone who wants to know more about SAM can find it here;


http://strategiccorp.com/wealthmanagement_sam_features.asp


The SAM and SAM II platform provides us with access to over 4,600 no-load/load-waived mutual funds*, stocks, bonds, conservative option strategies, UITs and a no-load, multi-manager variable annuity. All of these assets – as well as certain investments that our clients may have previously purchased – are consolidated onto a quarterly performance report, making it easy for our clients to monitor their customized portfolios.


When SAM allows you to access (just to name a few missing items off the top of my head) thousands of SMA managers, exchange funds, hedge funds and other alternative investments, managed commodity futures, sophisticated estate planning tools, cost-free collars, methodologies for handling restricted stock,   business and individual debt financing, etc., etc., etc. we can talk. There’s a reason many, many people well informed about the biz look at the playing field and stay with wirehouses, and I can assure you it’s not because they lack an entrepreneurial spirit.   


Indyone:

I'm sure you've got some products and strategies that my clients are clamoring for...that's why I lose so many to Morgan Stanley...<?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shape id=x0000t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"> @0 1 0">@1">@2 1 2">@3 21600 pixelWidth">@3 21600 pixelHeight">@0 0 1">@6 1 2">@7 21600 pixelWidth">@8 21600 0">@7 21600 pixelHeight">@10 21600 0"><v:shape id=x0000i1025 style="WIDTH: 12.75pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt" alt="" ="#x0000t75">



If you want to believe that indys don't lose accounts to warehouses, that's fine by me.


 


Apr 20, 2006 12:08 pm

Mike,


A lot of what you list as missing are available here.   Two exceptions you are dead on are 1.  Individual Hedge Funds - we can only mingle in fund of hedge funds and can do inside SAM 2.  Financing is also limited here - there are somethings we can do but where we fall short v MS is collateralized loans. 


In terms of the other things - they're here now.  A good friend I have come to know and has helped me on some financial planning business is guy by the name of Greg Powell - who was the top financial planning advisor at MS and actually went nationwide teaching this business to MS advisors.  I can tell you, he would contradict you in every way and is living proof now at the benefits of independence at LPL (at least) v his career at MS.  For what that worth I guess, hey it's not for all people, and I think you're right, typically it isn't due to lack of spirit v lack of desire to take on ownership.


Apr 20, 2006 12:12 pm
mikebutler222:

Indyone:
mikebutler222:
Devoted SA:

A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />


I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them.


I thought it was a fine analogy.  Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent.  Heck I can even use the one good Morgan Stanley fund I've found in my SAM platfom. 



I’ve done extensive research the past few years into indy platforms as I consider going that route. As for finding one that gives me everything a better wirehouse can give, there isn’t one. Someday there may be and the closest one I’ve seen currently is Wachovia’s. I’m not interested in a wizzing-contest, and anyone who wants to know more about SAM can find it here;


http://strategiccorp.com/wealthmanagement_sam_features.asp


The SAM and SAM II platform provides us with access to over 4,600 no-load/load-waived mutual funds*, stocks, bonds, conservative option strategies, UITs and a no-load, multi-manager variable annuity. All of these assets – as well as certain investments that our clients may have previously purchased – are consolidated onto a quarterly performance report, making it easy for our clients to monitor their customized portfolios.


When SAM allows you to access (just to name a few missing items off the top of my head) thousands of SMA managers, exchange funds, hedge funds and other alternative investments, managed commodity futures, sophisticated estate planning tools, cost-free collars, methodologies for handling restricted stock,   business and individual debt financing, etc., etc., etc. we can talk. There’s a reason many, many people well informed about the biz look at the playing field and stay with wirehouses, and I can assure you it’s not because they lack an entrepreneurial spirit.   


First of all, your SAM information is dated and incomplete.  This comes right off the advisor website:


"Over 5,300 funds from 350 fund families; individual stocks/bonds; options; UITs; funds of hedge funds; managed futures; variable annuity with 54 sub-accounts"


That's a little different than what you're representing as fact.


In addition, SAM is not the only platform at LPL...it just happens to be the platfom I use most often.  There is the Manager Select platform (SMA's) and Integrated Advisory Services (which combines the SAM and Manager Select platfom).


I can do exchange funds also...no problem there.  As far as other alternative investments go, I can do hedge funds, managed futures, equipment leasing, non-traded REITS. other real estate, and oil & gas.


There are avenues for providing collars and handling restricted stock available here also.


I tell you all of this while telling you that I have very little use for all these exotic products in my practice, and I was only modestly interested in their availability when I made my move.  They sound very sexy, but by the time you look at the expense structures, and real after-expenses-after-tax returns, there's not a lot of application for them among the general population.  At the same time, they are there, and people with much larger books than you and I do very well on the LPL platfom, so I'm confident that it would be adequate for you and your client base.  Before you look down your nose at me, you might want to make sure your research is thorough and up-to-date.


...and yes, I do believe that many folks at wirehouses decide to stay there due to the fear of the unknown, i.e., concern of dealing with non-competes, new platfom, the administration duties of running your own show, and yes, the lack of an entrepreneurial spirit.


[quote=Indyone]


I'm sure you've got some products and strategies that my clients are clamoring for...that's why I lose so many to Morgan Stanley...<?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><V:SHAPE id=x0000t75 coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> @0 1 0">@1">@2 1 2">@3 21600 pixelWidth">@3 21600 pixelHeight">@0 0 1">@6 1 2">@7 21600 pixelWidth">@8 21600 0">@7 21600 pixelHeight">@10 21600 0"><V:SHAPE id=x0000i1025 style="WIDTH: 12.75pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt" ="#x0000t75" alt="">


[/quote]


If you want to believe that indys don't lose accounts to warehouses, that's fine by me.


It sounds like you are assuming that all indys have the same platforms and skill sets.  Sure, some indys may not possess the skills or platfom to attract and maintain desireable clients, but I haven't lost the first account to a warehouse, or even a wirehouse since I went independent.  I only lost one account to a wirehouse in my years at the bank, and even that wasn't due to a superior investment strategy ( I saw what he sold...it was some SMA's that were mediocre at best)...the guy just happened to be a good golf prostitute, which is not a bad strategy for some folks.


On the other hand, I HAVE taken several accounts from wirehouses, including SM, ML and MS.  I have a Merrill statement on my desk right now.  Admittedly, it's small enough by Merrill standards ($250K) that they are probably not giving it the attention it needs, but I can make a living all day on those kinds of accounts.


I may lose an account to a wirehouse (heck, I may even lose an account to a warehouse for that matter!), but I'm confident that I'll gain more than I lose because of what I bring to the table.


These long diatribes just wear me out, but I felt I neede to correct some misconceptions and defend a B/D that has been nothing but excellent to work with.  Now it's been fun, but I must go...mama needs a new pair of shoes!!!

Apr 20, 2006 12:17 pm
mikebutler222:
Devoted SA:

A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.



I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />



Mike, what I meant was...at alot of the wirehouses (Merrill, SB etc) they have proprietary prodcuts the reps are "encouraged" (wink wink, nudge nudge) to sell. Wouldn't you say that's like ordering from a menu? Aren't there "recommended" portfolio strategies at your place?


Are you telling me that working at SB, Merrill etc there are no limitations on what you can offer, sell, hold etc? None whatsoever? If not, then I'd have to say the most compelling reason to go independent would be so you would be able to earn your full potential.

Apr 21, 2006 10:52 pm
Devoted SA:
mikebutler222:
Devoted SA:

A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.



I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />



Mike, what I meant was...at alot of the wirehouses (Merrill, SB etc) they have proprietary prodcuts the reps are "encouraged" (wink wink, nudge nudge) to sell. Wouldn't you say that's like ordering from a menu? Aren't there "recommended" portfolio strategies at your place?


Are you telling me that working at SB, Merrill etc there are no limitations on what you can offer, sell, hold etc? None whatsoever? If not, then I'd have to say the most compelling reason to go independent would be so you would be able to earn your full potential.




I think you might want to actually work at a wirehouse before you buy into the dated stereotypes of "wink, wink" proprietary products. I just ain't so. Not only would I say there are no limitations on what you can buy, sell and hold (aside perhaps in some firms a prohibition on soliciting stocks with prices under $5) I'd say the menu available to wirehouse guys is larger and broader than what's available to you.


At a wirehouse you're given the widest possible array of products and services possible. You're free to pick and choose which you'll employ and what sort of business you'll do. Wanna be a stock jocky? Fine. Want to work only with SMAs? Fine. Want to work just with large 401k plans? Not a problem. Do the business, do it clean and you'll free to do what you like.

Apr 21, 2006 11:04 pm
Indyone:
mikebutler222:

Indyone:
mikebutler222:
Devoted SA:

A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />


I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them.


I thought it was a fine analogy.  Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent.  Heck I can even use the one good Morgan Stanley fund I've found in my SAM platfom. 



I’ve done extensive research the past few years into indy platforms as I consider going that route. As for finding one that gives me everything a better wirehouse can give, there isn’t one. Someday there may be and the closest one I’ve seen currently is Wachovia’s. I’m not interested in a wizzing-contest, and anyone who wants to know more about SAM can find it here;


http://strategiccorp.com/wealthmanagement_sam_features.asp


The SAM and SAM II platform provides us with access to over 4,600 no-load/load-waived mutual funds*, stocks, bonds, conservative option strategies, UITs and a no-load, multi-manager variable annuity. All of these assets – as well as certain investments that our clients may have previously purchased – are consolidated onto a quarterly performance report, making it easy for our clients to monitor their customized portfolios.


When SAM allows you to access (just to name a few missing items off the top of my head) thousands of SMA managers, exchange funds, hedge funds and other alternative investments, managed commodity futures, sophisticated estate planning tools, cost-free collars, methodologies for handling restricted stock,   business and individual debt financing, etc., etc., etc. we can talk. There’s a reason many, many people well informed about the biz look at the playing field and stay with wirehouses, and I can assure you it’s not because they lack an entrepreneurial spirit.   


First of all, your SAM information is dated and incomplete.  This comes right off the advisor website:


"Over 5,300 funds from 350 fund families; individual stocks/bonds; options; UITs; funds of hedge funds; managed futures; variable annuity with 54 sub-accounts"


That's a little different than what you're representing as fact.


All I did was go to LPL's website. quote it and provide the link. If it's dated or incomplete, it's LPL's fault. Notice there's no mention of exchange funds, individual hedge funds, SMAs, just as I said.


 


In addition, SAM is not the only platform at LPL...it just happens to be the platfom I use most often.  There is the Manager Select platform (SMA's) and Integrated Advisory Services (which combines the SAM and Manager Select platfom).


Again, you asked about YOUR SAM and I went to YOUR SAM's website. You asked what was  available at a wirehouse that wasn't at SAM, and I gave you the details.


 


I can do exchange funds also...no problem there.  As far as other alternative investments go, I can do hedge funds, managed futures, equipment leasing, non-traded REITS. other real estate, and oil & gas.


There are avenues for providing collars and handling restricted stock available here also.


And where are they all on your SAM?


I tell you all of this while telling you that I have very little use for all these exotic products in my practice, and I was only modestly interested in their availability when I made my move. 


That's fine, but the fact that you don't use them doesn't change the fact that you asked what wirehouse guys have that your SAM doesn't.


 They sound very sexy, but by the time you look at the expense structures, and real after-expenses-after-tax returns, there's not a lot of application for them among the general population. 


I don't deal with the general population, and again, you asked.


 


 At the same time, they are there, and people with much larger books than you and I do very well on the LPL platfom, so I'm confident that it would be adequate for you and your client base.  Before you look down your nose at me, you might want to make sure your research is thorough and up-to-date.


It's as up to date as your website. The next time you claim to have everything on your SAM that wirehouse guys have, you might want to consider what you're going to get as an accurate answer.


...and yes, I do believe that many folks at wirehouses decide to stay there due to the fear of the unknown, i.e., concern of dealing with non-competes, new platfom, the administration duties of running your own show, and yes, the lack of an entrepreneurial spirit.


Well,  you're free to be as confused as you like about why people more experienced than you, with bigger books (which they put together with the entrepreneurial spirit you think they lack) and bigger production look at what they pay to be at a wirehouse and find the deal worthwhile. In fact, they probably prefer that you underestimate them.


[quote=Indyone]


I'm sure you've got some products and strategies that my clients are clamoring for...that's why I lose so many to Morgan Stanley...<?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><V:SHAPE id=x0000t75 coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> @0 1 0">@1">@2 1 2">@3 21600 pixelWidth">@3 21600 pixelHeight">@0 0 1">@6 1 2">@7 21600 pixelWidth">@8 21600 0">@7 21600 pixelHeight">@10 21600 0"><V:SHAPE id=x0000i1025 style="WIDTH: 12.75pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt" ="#x0000t75" alt="">


[/quote]


If you want to believe that indys don't lose accounts to warehouses, that's fine by me.


It sounds like you are assuming that all indys have the same platforms and skill sets.  Sure, some indys may not possess the skills or platfom to attract and maintain desireable clients, but I haven't lost the first account to a warehouse, or even a wirehouse since I went independent. 


Like I said, if you want to believe you can't lose accounts to guys at wirehouses, feel free. I can assure you they have their arguments about the lack of due diligence, supervision, reliablity and succession planning down pat for prospects they meet that have their accounts at a RIA down the street.


 That street runs two ways....


Apr 22, 2006 10:53 pm
mikebutler222:
Indyone:
mikebutler222:

Indyone:
mikebutler222:
Devoted SA:

A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />


I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them.


I thought it was a fine analogy.  Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent.  Heck I can even use the one good Morgan Stanley fund I've found in my SAM platfom. 



I’ve done extensive research the past few years into indy platforms as I consider going that route. As for finding one that gives me everything a better wirehouse can give, there isn’t one. Someday there may be and the closest one I’ve seen currently is Wachovia’s. I’m not interested in a wizzing-contest, and anyone who wants to know more about SAM can find it here;


http://strategiccorp.com/wealthmanagement_sam_features.asp


The SAM and SAM II platform provides us with access to over 4,600 no-load/load-waived mutual funds*, stocks, bonds, conservative option strategies, UITs and a no-load, multi-manager variable annuity. All of these assets – as well as certain investments that our clients may have previously purchased – are consolidated onto a quarterly performance report, making it easy for our clients to monitor their customized portfolios.


When SAM allows you to access (just to name a few missing items off the top of my head) thousands of SMA managers, exchange funds, hedge funds and other alternative investments, managed commodity futures, sophisticated estate planning tools, cost-free collars, methodologies for handling restricted stock,   business and individual debt financing, etc., etc., etc. we can talk. There’s a reason many, many people well informed about the biz look at the playing field and stay with wirehouses, and I can assure you it’s not because they lack an entrepreneurial spirit.   


First of all, your SAM information is dated and incomplete.  This comes right off the advisor website:


"Over 5,300 funds from 350 fund families; individual stocks/bonds; options; UITs; funds of hedge funds; managed futures; variable annuity with 54 sub-accounts"


That's a little different than what you're representing as fact.


All I did was go to LPL's website. quote it and provide the link. If it's dated or incomplete, it's LPL's fault. Notice there's no mention of exchange funds, individual hedge funds, SMAs, just as I said.


 


In addition, SAM is not the only platform at LPL...it just happens to be the platfom I use most often.  There is the Manager Select platform (SMA's) and Integrated Advisory Services (which combines the SAM and Manager Select platfom).


Again, you asked about YOUR SAM and I went to YOUR SAM's website. You asked what was  available at a wirehouse that wasn't at SAM, and I gave you the details.


No, that's NOT what I said...what I said was "Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent." Frankly, your reading comprehension sucks.


I can do exchange funds also...no problem there.  As far as other alternative investments go, I can do hedge funds, managed futures, equipment leasing, non-traded REITS. other real estate, and oil & gas.


There are avenues for providing collars and handling restricted stock available here also.


And where are they all on your SAM?  Again, you mental midget, there is more to my platform than SAM.  SAM just happens to be what I use most often.


I tell you all of this while telling you that I have very little use for all these exotic products in my practice, and I was only modestly interested in their availability when I made my move. 


That's fine, but the fact that you don't use them doesn't change the fact that you asked what wirehouse guys have that your SAM doesn't.   Again, that's not what I asked, no matter how many times you repeat it.  I asked what you have at MS that I don't as an independent, and you gave me virtually NOTHING that I don't have access to.


 They sound very sexy, but by the time you look at the expense structures, and real after-expenses-after-tax returns, there's not a lot of application for them among the general population. 


I don't deal with the general population, and again, you asked.  Nice...could you sound a bit more condescending?  It's interesting...MS guys in this area sure do...they're just not very successful at taking them away from me.


 


 At the same time, they are there, and people with much larger books than you and I do very well on the LPL platfom, so I'm confident that it would be adequate for you and your client base.  Before you look down your nose at me, you might want to make sure your research is thorough and up-to-date.


It's as up to date as your website. The next time you claim to have everything on your SAM that wirehouse guys have, you might want to consider what you're going to get as an accurate answer.  You know, if you'd read the question carefully, you could have avoided this whole diatribe.  Again, tell us what you can get at Morgan Stanley that I can't get as an INDEPENDENT!


...and yes, I do believe that many folks at wirehouses decide to stay there due to the fear of the unknown, i.e., concern of dealing with non-competes, new platfom, the administration duties of running your own show, and yes, the lack of an entrepreneurial spirit.


Well,  you're free to be as confused as you like about why people more experienced than you, with bigger books (which they put together with the entrepreneurial spirit you think they lack) and bigger production look at what they pay to be at a wirehouse and find the deal worthwhile. In fact, they probably prefer that you underestimate them.


It doesn't matter if I underestimate or overestimate them.  My client relationships are such that they're simply not going to take any of my accounts that I don't want to lose.  I don't think I'm the least bit confused about why most folks stay in a wirehouse setting.


[quote=Indyone]


I'm sure you've got some products and strategies that my clients are clamoring for...that's why I lose so many to Morgan Stanley...<?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><V:SHAPE id=x0000t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"> @0 1 0">@1">@2 1 2">@3 21600 pixelWidth">@3 21600 pixelHeight">@0 0 1">@6 1 2">@7 21600 pixelWidth">@8 21600 0">@7 21600 pixelHeight">@10 21600 0"><V:SHAPE id=x0000i1025 style="WIDTH: 12.75pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt" ="#x0000t75" alt="">


[/quote]


If you want to believe that indys don't lose accounts to warehouses, that's fine by me.


It sounds like you are assuming that all indys have the same platforms and skill sets.  Sure, some indys may not possess the skills or platfom to attract and maintain desireable clients, but I haven't lost the first account to a warehouse, or even a wirehouse since I went independent. 


Like I said, if you want to believe you can't lose accounts to guys at wirehouses, feel free. I can assure you they have their arguments about the lack of due diligence, supervision, reliablity and succession planning down pat for prospects they meet that have their accounts at a RIA down the street.


You're assuming a lot about my business that you know nothing about.  I went head to head with a Morgan Stanley team last year for a seven figure account, and they were as smug and condescending as you are.  I signed the account up and the guy told me that the MS guys were "all smoke and mirrors".  Sounds like your boys did a bang-up job.


 That street runs two ways....


It may in the big city, but there are a lot of one-way streets in my town.


I'm done on this one.  It's just gotten too long and time consuming for me.  Feel free to respond and continue to argue your superiority.  I'll respect your opinions for the most part, but when you start sneering down your nose at us poor little indys, don't be surprised if I decide to defend myself.

Apr 23, 2006 5:17 pm
Indyone:
mikebutler222:
Indyone:
mikebutler222:

Indyone:
mikebutler222:
Devoted SA:

A fellow ex-Jones rep said this about going indy: At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.

<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />


I can't speak for Jones, but you have to be kidding if you think that's what it's like at a wirehouse. To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them.


I thought it was a fine analogy.  Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent.  Heck I can even use the one good Morgan Stanley fund I've found in my SAM platfom. 



I’ve done extensive research the past few years into indy platforms as I consider going that route. As for finding one that gives me everything a better wirehouse can give, there isn’t one. Someday there may be and the closest one I’ve seen currently is Wachovia’s. I’m not interested in a wizzing-contest, and anyone who wants to know more about SAM can find it here;


http://strategiccorp.com/wealthmanagement_sam_features.asp


The SAM and SAM II platform provides us with access to over 4,600 no-load/load-waived mutual funds*, stocks, bonds, conservative option strategies, UITs and a no-load, multi-manager variable annuity. All of these assets – as well as certain investments that our clients may have previously purchased – are consolidated onto a quarterly performance report, making it easy for our clients to monitor their customized portfolios.


When SAM allows you to access (just to name a few missing items off the top of my head) thousands of SMA managers, exchange funds, hedge funds and other alternative investments, managed commodity futures, sophisticated estate planning tools, cost-free collars, methodologies for handling restricted stock,   business and individual debt financing, etc., etc., etc. we can talk. There’s a reason many, many people well informed about the biz look at the playing field and stay with wirehouses, and I can assure you it’s not because they lack an entrepreneurial spirit.   


First of all, your SAM information is dated and incomplete.  This comes right off the advisor website:


"Over 5,300 funds from 350 fund families; individual stocks/bonds; options; UITs; funds of hedge funds; managed futures; variable annuity with 54 sub-accounts"


That's a little different than what you're representing as fact.


All I did was go to LPL's website. quote it and provide the link. If it's dated or incomplete, it's LPL's fault. Notice there's no mention of exchange funds, individual hedge funds, SMAs, just as I said.


 


In addition, SAM is not the only platform at LPL...it just happens to be the platfom I use most often.  There is the Manager Select platform (SMA's) and Integrated Advisory Services (which combines the SAM and Manager Select platfom).


Again, you asked about YOUR SAM and I went to YOUR SAM's website. You asked what was  available at a wirehouse that wasn't at SAM, and I gave you the details.


No, that's NOT what I said...what I said was "Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent." Frankly, your reading comprehension sucks.


Itwas you that brougt up your SAM system, not me, remember?


I can do exchange funds also...no problem there.  As far as other alternative investments go, I can do hedge funds, managed futures, equipment leasing, non-traded REITS. other real estate, and oil & gas.


There are avenues for providing collars and handling restricted stock available here also.


And where are they all on your SAM?  Again, you mental midget, there is more to my platform than SAM.  SAM just happens to be what I use most often.


Now that the shortcomings of SAM are pointed to you, you now mention "another system" and you get testy about it.....


I tell you all of this while telling you that I have very little use for all these exotic products in my practice, and I was only modestly interested in their availability when I made my move. 


That's fine, but the fact that you don't use them doesn't change the fact that you asked what wirehouse guys have that your SAM doesn't.   Again, that's not what I asked, no matter how many times you repeat it.  I asked what you have at MS that I don't as an independent, and you gave me virtually NOTHING that I don't have access to.


Who was it that brought up SAM? Now that same is shown to be lacking, you have "other sources". Fine....


 They sound very sexy, but by the time you look at the expense structures, and real after-expenses-after-tax returns, there's not a lot of application for them among the general population. 


I don't deal with the general population, and again, you asked.  Nice...could you sound a bit more condescending?  It's interesting...MS guys in this area sure do...they're just not very successful at taking them away from me.


Sounds like a nerve has been hit....btw, seems to me you started with the condescending tone... I simply wanted to open your eyes...


 At the same time, they are there, and people with much larger books than you and I do very well on the LPL platfom, so I'm confident that it would be adequate for you and your client base.  Before you look down your nose at me, you might want to make sure your research is thorough and up-to-date.


It's as up to date as your website. The next time you claim to have everything on your SAM that wirehouse guys have, you might want to consider what you're going to get as an accurate answer.  You know, if you'd read the question carefully, you could have avoided this whole diatribe.  Again, tell us what you can get at Morgan Stanley that I can't get as an INDEPENDENT!


Yeah, once again, you mentioned SAM, complained when I quoted the website and now you have another system. BTW, where are those financial planning tools and the debt relationed information?


 


...and yes, I do believe that many folks at wirehouses decide to stay there due to the fear of the unknown, i.e., concern of dealing with non-competes, new platfom, the administration duties of running your own show, and yes, the lack of an entrepreneurial spirit.


Well,  you're free to be as confused as you like about why people more experienced than you, with bigger books (which they put together with the entrepreneurial spirit you think they lack) and bigger production look at what they pay to be at a wirehouse and find the deal worthwhile. In fact, they probably prefer that you underestimate them.


It doesn't matter if I underestimate or overestimate them.  My client relationships are such that they're simply not going to take any of my accounts that I don't want to lose.  I don't think I'm the least bit confused about why most folks stay in a wirehouse setting.


Clearly you are confused, and very defensive at the same time. Interesting....


[quote=Indyone]


I'm sure you've got some products and strategies that my clients are clamoring for...that's why I lose so many to Morgan Stanley...<?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><V:SHAPE id=x0000t75 coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> @0 1 0">@1">@2 1 2">@3 21600 pixelWidth">@3 21600 pixelHeight">@0 0 1">@6 1 2">@7 21600 pixelWidth">@8 21600 0">@7 21600 pixelHeight">@10 21600 0"><V:SHAPE id=x0000i1025 style="WIDTH: 12.75pt; HEIGHT: 12.75pt" ="#x0000t75" alt="">


[/quote]


If you want to believe that indys don't lose accounts to warehouses, that's fine by me.


It sounds like you are assuming that all indys have the same platforms and skill sets.  Sure, some indys may not possess the skills or platfom to attract and maintain desireable clients, but I haven't lost the first account to a warehouse, or even a wirehouse since I went independent. 


Like I said, if you want to believe you can't lose accounts to guys at wirehouses, feel free. I can assure you they have their arguments about the lack of due diligence, supervision, reliablity and succession planning down pat for prospects they meet that have their accounts at a RIA down the street.


You're assuming a lot about my business that you know nothing about.  I went head to head with a Morgan Stanley team last year for a seven figure account, and they were as smug and condescending as you are.  I signed the account up and the guy told me that the MS guys were "all smoke and mirrors".  Sounds like your boys did a bang-up job.


Yawn... you opened this up with a condescending attitutde, got your closk cleaned about what your SAM can do, then told us you have another, unnamed system that can provide everything you never even mentioned before. Funny how that worked out.


I never meant to hurt your little feelings, simply to awaken you from your delusion about the "eating from thm menu" fantasy you agreed to in an earlier post. People should work in the channel that suits them and I respect whatever decision they make, until they spout nonsense like you did about the other channels.


Get yourself some counselling, there's no reason someone should have to live feeling so inferior. I wish you all the best.


 That street runs two ways....


It may in the big city, but there are a lot of one-way streets in my town.


I suspect you're stuck on one.


I'm done on this one.  It's just gotten too long and time consuming for me.  Feel free to respond and continue to argue your superiority.  I'll respect your opinions for the most part, but when you start sneering down your nose at us poor little indys, don't be surprised if I decide to defend myself.


LOL, pretty funny attitude given that this thread took off with you yapping about how  "limited" wirehouse guys were with what they have to work with and how they stay where they are because they just lack the courage and "spirit" you have.

Apr 23, 2006 10:51 pm

Mike, I said I wouldn't respond, but being that it's still Sunday night and you apparently can't let it go, I'll give it one more shot.  You evoke such responses with your arrogant, superior attitude.  It is obvious that you feel superior to the rest of us folks due to your superior intellect (which I would debate...us country bumpkins aren't as stupid as you think) and your platform at Morgan Stanley.  I've met your type and yes, it my smaller, rural market, I win much more than I lose to reps like you.  Your business model probably works better in large metro areas like the one you work in, but people (and yes, people with a lot of money) around here don't relate well to "city slickers" with an inflated vocabulary and sense of self-worth, pretty little foreign cars and sophisticated, but hard to understand investment strategies.


Yes, I mentioned the LPL SAM platform.  Nowhere did I indicate that it was the only platform I had available through LPL...that was your bad assumption.  I said "Please tell me what you can get as a Morgan Stanley rep that I can't get as an independent (that's INPEPENDENT, NOT solely the SAM platform).  Heck I can even use the one good Morgan Stanley fund I've found in my SAM platfom."  I never said that SAM was all I used...only that I could get your B/D's funds through the SAM platform.


You were into this thread before I was (even though I'm an independent and you aren't) and I think YOU started the condescending tone with "To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to. There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them."  It's sh*t like that that pisses this independent off.  I don't buy that sh*t at all, and I think with the exception of a couple of very minor issues, which don't really impact any of my clients (my hedge funds are fund of funds, and I don't do commercial lending, only mortgages), you didn't list a damn thing that I can't get, so get over your corner grocery vs. supermarket fantasy.  Sounds like you're overdosing on mother Morgan's Kool-Aid.


Never once did I "yap about how  "limited" wirehouse guys were with what they have to work with and how they stay where they are because they just lack the courage and "spirit" I have." You are manufacturing positions that I have not articulated.  I do think that SOME stay in the wirehouse because they lack an entrepreneurial spirit.  Another example (among others) I used for staying was lack of desire to deal with admin tasks relating to running your own business.  I have no clue where you manufactured the position that I believe wirehouse guys are "limited".  I just don't believe that your platform is far superior as you seem to believe it is.


As far as "getting your closk cleaned", I'll leave that to other forum members to determine.  I'm not buying it at all.  I'm sure the Morgan boys thought they cleaned my closk last year after their presentation...interesting...the TWO of them lost the account to little ole me.  You didn't hurt my feelings...you pissed me off by insinuating that your platform was far superior to indy platforms.  I've stayed out of most of your fights and let you blow.  Heck, I was supportive of you when you were outed, and other than your firm, I've maintained your anonymity.  I even feel like you're entitled to your opinion, but don't even start with that corner grocery sh*t.  If you weren't so drunk on Kool-Aid, you wouldn't believe it either.


Don't take my lack of response to you on this subject as an acknowledgement of getting my closk cleaned.  I'm simply tired of your bluster and ready to move on to more constructive topics.  At the same time, don't think for a minute that I won't defend myself if you continue to misquote me or assert your imagined superiority.


When you have some experience as an independent, please feel free to tell us about how independent platforms work.  You could have avoided all of this if you hadn't been so intent on hijacking a thread that was asking INPEDENDENTS a question.

Apr 24, 2006 8:35 am

Mike, I said I wouldn't respond, but being that it's still Sunday night and you apparently can't let it go, ..."


Let's see... you said you wouldn't respond, but you did... now who "can't let it go"?


You evoke such responses with your arrogant, superior attitude.


Once again, my ultra-defensive friend, it was you who started this conversation by agreeing to the laughable "eating from the menu" post. And who was it who said the wirehouse guys stay where they are because they lack the spirit and courage you have?


It is obvious that you feel superior to the rest of us folks...


Yawn... see above about how this thread began. You really should speak to someone about that inferiority thing...


I've met your type and yes, it my smaller, rural market, I win much more than I lose to reps like you.


Of course you do.....


Yes, I mentioned the LPL SAM platform. Nowhere did I indicate that it was the only platform I had available through LPL..


Still smarting about that one? Well, you mentioned SAM, I quoted their website (you claimed I lied when I quoted them directly AND provided a link) and now, after the error of your ways has been pointed out to you, you claim you have "another" yet unnamed system.


Right, sure you do...


... and I think YOU started the condescending tone with "To use your analogy, you're shopping at the corner grocery store and most wirehouse guys are shopping at a huge supermarket that feature things you have no access to.


Yeah, that's the ticket... someone made a foolish and obviously condescending analogy about "limitations" at wirehouses, I correct the error, and I started it.


There are plenty of compelling reasons to consider going independent, but your example isn’t one of them." It's sh*t like that that pisses this independent off.


Then be pissed off, that doesn't give you license to just make things up.


I don't buy that sh*t at all, and I think with the exception of a couple of very minor issues, which don't really impact any of my clients (my hedge funds are fund of funds, and I don't do commercial lending, only mortgages), you didn't list a damn thing that I can't get, so get over your corner grocery vs. supermarket fantasy.


Sounds like the fact that you're limited makes you hyper-sensitive.


Never once did I "yap about how "limited" wirehouse guys were with what they have to work with and how they stay where they are because they just lack the courage and "spirit" I have."


The "supermarket analogy was about wirehouse guys being limited in product and services. As to your secons claim, that you "never", is this you talking? "...and yes, I do believe that many folks at wirehouses decide to stay there due to the fear of the unknown, i.e., concern of dealing with non-competes, new platfom, the administration duties of running your own show, and yes, the lack of an entrepreneurial spirit."


Now, what was it again you never said again?


You are manufacturing positions that I have not articulated.


I quoted you.


I do think that SOME stay in the wirehouse because they lack an entrepreneurial spirit.


Oh, "some" makes the difference. Isn’t a sham those poor guys can’t measure up to you?



I have no clue where you manufactured the position that I believe wirehouse guys are "limited".


I suggest you read the supermarket analogy that you chimed in to agree with, again.


As far as "getting your closk cleaned", I'll leave that to other forum members to determine.


I would suggest you do just that.


Don't take my lack of response to you on this subject as an acknowledgement of getting my closk cleaned.


The fact that you felt the need to comment again is pretty good proof....


I'm simply tired of your bluster and ready to move on to more constructive topics.


ROFLMAO, yeah, that's what it is.


At the same time, don't think for a minute that I won't defend myself if you continue to misquote me or assert your imagined superiority.


And the supermarket analogy wasn't intended as a slight to wirehouse guys and a tail of the superiority of indies?


When you have some experience as an independent, please feel free to tell us about how independent platforms work.


Ahem... if you recall, the conversation I entered was one where an indy who have never worked at a wirehouse compared the two platforms. Givenn the research I’ve done I’m more qualified than you (and the original writer, for that matter) on the differences in the two.


You could have avoided all of this if you hadn't been so intent on hijacking a thread that was asking INPEDENDENTS a question.


I can see how you're so easily confused. I suggest you read again the comment YOU agreed to and the comment that caused me to enter the thread. It was about wirehouses. In case it’s slipped your memory, here it is again;


At Edward Jones (or Merrill, or Dean Weaner you fill in the blank) it's like going out to eat at a restaurant. They have a menu for you to choose from, and they'll cook you a nice meal - which you'll pay for. When you're indy you're in the grocery store with your cart looking for items to cook YOURSELF a meal. If you just stand there and wait for someone to put things in your cart you'l starve.


There’s just nothing about that reference to warehouses that’s true.

Apr 24, 2006 10:47 am

Without getting in the middle of this, I am wondering if either of your firms have a platform where I can hold SMA's and MF's in the same account?  Or is there a way to hold different SMA's (not multi-discipline portfolios) all in one account?


Thanks for your help.

Apr 24, 2006 11:24 am
RepResource:

Without getting in the middle of this,



Don't sweat it, it's done. It's a shame too because it could have been a dicussion of the strengths and weaknesses of both platforms, but it's become a insecurity thing...


BTW, my apologies in advance if you weren't asking about a wirehouse platform.


RepResource:

I am wondering if either of your firms have a platform where I can hold SMA's and MF's in the same account? 



MS does have an account where you can combine SMAs with a (currently) limited menu of MFs. If you want to hold different MFs you'd be better off with a flat fee (or advisory, which is next to happen) account.


RepResource:

Or is there a way to hold different SMA's (not multi-discipline portfolios) all in one account?



Again, MS has a account where you can hold up to 6 different SMAs in the same account number (same type as mentioned above). I'm curious why you say not an MDA, since we call the account I'm talking about (Personal Portfolio) an MDA. What's the dif?

Apr 24, 2006 11:27 am

RR, sorry this got lost in the shuffle...


"In addition, SAM is not the only platform at LPL...it just happens to be the platfom I use most often.  There is the Manager Select platform (SMA's) and Integrated Advisory Services (which combines the SAM and Manager Select platfom)."


Yes, Integrated Advisory Services allows multiple disciplines of both SMA's and mutual funds.