Meanwwhile back at the NOLA bus depot

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Jul 24, 2007 5:24 pm

On this worst market day in seven years I thought we could clear up our left/right disengage over Nagin's not using the buses to evacuate NOLA.


What really amazes me is how this issue has become so politicized. The reason, of course is,  if Nagin did his job right then the blame for the Katrina fiasco belongs elsewhere. That elsewhere being squarely on the shoulders of the Bush admin. If he screwed up then he gets to shoulder the blame.


The answer, as usual, isn't black and white. No pun intended as some have suggested that the issue is about black and white. 


NOLA did have a plan to evacuate the city. They had several plans. Some things they did right, some wrong. And some that worked could have been done better. When it comes to government there is nothing new there. How many things does your local government get exactly right? However, regardless of which political side you play for the fact is NOLA's city govrnmt evacuated 80% of the city's residents. A record not only for NOLA but for any large american city where 60% is considered a success. Nagin and his evacuation planners figured that an effective evacuation would leave about 100,000 people in the city. Fed gov't estimates after the storm put the number at 97,000. So, in Nagin's mind the evacuation had worked about as planned. And it had. Still, the Monday morning quarterbacking started immediately and was intensified by the extremely high voltage politcal nature of the issues at hand. The stakes to place blame were high.


Criticizm centered on Nagin's decision to not use the city's school bus and public transit bus fleet to evacuate the city's carless. His response to this charge seemed to change from interview to interview. The reactions of an extremely tired and stressed man put on the spot for what look like a failure? Maybe. Nagin's a first class BSer so who knows what he's really thinking. However, the point is the plan wasn't a failure. It worked and got most of the city's residents to safety. Could it have been done better, without a doubt. Hindsight is always 20-20.


The controversy though, still swirls. Centered on the unused buses. We all remember seeing the pictures of all the school buses sitting idle in the flood waters while a mile away thousands suffered in the Dome. We were appalled and shocked. The right wing then pushed into action with a campaign to discredit Nagin with those school buses. It started with a column written by Wesly Pruden, editor and chief of the Washington Times. Wesley pointed right at the 2000 unused buses and blamed Nagin. The right wing blogs picked this up. From there FOX news did it's usual hatchet job. Sean Hannity used the 2000 buses to club Nagin and vindicate Bush. Gingrich jumped on board. And we all know if it's said on FOX it must be true. Nagin's public lynching was on. It went well. People, even well educated people who should know better bought in. Nagin was the bad guy.


The problem with all this is that Pruden, in his rush to impeach Nagin, had grossly mistated the number of buses available. Estimates by evacuation experts, mostly civil engineers, put the number of buses needed for an evacuation on the scale needed by NOLA at 2000 as a minimum. The fact is NOLA had, at last count, about 600 buses available. 324 school buses, most of which were part of the televised submarine fleet, and 364 public transit buses. Of the 324 school buses owned by the city approximately 70 we inoperable. Using every bus in the city's fleet, school and transit to evacuate would have been hopeless. Not even half good enough to get the job done. Nagin, regardless of what bullsh*t answer he was giving on what day was right not to attempt to use them.


Today, these facts are well known and as I've shown, easily found. Yet, to this day the right refuses to back down on the bus issue. This probably relates to the fact that Katrina could be an 08 campaign issue.


Perhaps the lesson is don't believe everything you hear, regardless of the source.


After Charley FEMA was in my county the next day handing out water,and food as well as providing shelter. What went wrong in NOLA and along the Gulf Coast?  There is no answer that won't dissolve into a political food fight.


OK, that was a nice break from a tough day in the market.




Jul 24, 2007 5:53 pm

My brain hurts- I am going to the beach...

Jul 24, 2007 5:58 pm
blarmston:

My brain hurts- I am going to the beach...


Lucky dawg.

Jul 24, 2007 7:08 pm

You have to "go" to get to the beach? Poor sap.

Jul 24, 2007 7:46 pm

It isn't the administrations fault. Bush said that Brownie was doing a good job. That Bush said it, is good enough for...hey, wait! What happened to Brownie??? Hmm...



Okay, on the Iraq War, Bush said that Rumsfeld was doing a good job. Well, if Bush said it, it is good enough for....hey, wait! What happened to Rumsfeld??? Hmm...



I'm sure the reason for both of them being gone rests on Nagin's shoulders. He is the one responsible...I heard in on Fox! Ha, ha, ha!

Jul 24, 2007 8:07 pm
BondGuy:

After Charley FEMA was in my county the next day handing out water,and food as well as providing shelter. What went wrong in NOLA and along the Gulf Coast?  There is no answer that won't dissolve into a political food fight.



Your county (which wasn't hit directly) wasn't below sea level and cut off due to flooded roads and downed bridges. That's what "went wrong". After the hurricane I went through FEMA wasn't in my neighborhood for three days due to downed trees and a bridge being out.


Nagin not only didn't give the order to evacuate early enough, and didn't provide transportation for those who didn't have any, he stuffed a massive amount of people into the Superdome without sufficient food, water, medical attention or security. Those issues were his responsibility.


It's amazing to me that the "20/20 hindsight" excuse is dragged out for Nagin, the guy who caused the situation to be so dire to begin with, yet we bring out the hangman's noose for Bush, when the worst that can be said of FEMA is that they should have been there 24 hours earlier and that they erred in counting on information from Nagin/Blanco instead of turning on CNN.

Jul 24, 2007 9:19 pm
mikebutler222:
BondGuy:

After Charley FEMA was in my county the next day handing out water,and food as well as providing shelter. What went wrong in NOLA and along the Gulf Coast?  There is no answer that won't dissolve into a political food fight.



Your county (which wasn't hit directly) wasn't below sea level and cut off due to flooded roads and downed bridges. That's what "went wrong". After the hurricane I went through FEMA wasn't in my neighborhood for three days due to downed trees and a bridge being out.


Nagin not only didn't give the order to evacuate early enough, and didn't provide transportation for those who didn't have any, he stuffed a massive amount of people into the Superdome without sufficient food, water, medical attention or security. Those issues were his responsibility.


It's amazing to me that the "20/20 hindsight" excuse is dragged out for Nagin, the guy who caused the situation to be so dire to begin with, yet we bring out the hangman's noose for Bush, when the worst that can be said of FEMA is that they should have been there 24 hours earlier and that they erred in counting on information from Nagin/Blanco instead of turning on CNN.



My county took more of a hit from Charley than any place along the Mississippi coast took from Katrina.


I was a big FEMA fan. they put things right in Fl and again in my Jersey neighborhood after some big time rains broke a series of dams causing massive flooding. FEMA, good people, johnny on the spot! But Katrina? Hmm... maybe it was a race thing?


As for the rest of your post, an 80% evacuation rate speaks for itself. That's better than good, it's excellent. Show me one thing the Bush admin has done in 6 years that has been as succesful? Just one thing. And please don't come back with the lame we've not been attacked again rebuttal. Bush has no control over Al-Qaeda's time table. And as recent reports have shown, the terrorist are here. We are no safer today than we were six years ago.


Just one thing that's worked? 


Nagin's no angel and he's nobodies bargain but he wasn't the one who caused FEMA not to respond.


Now my head hurts I need to go to the beach.

Jul 24, 2007 10:27 pm
BondGuy:
mikebutler222:
BondGuy:

After Charley FEMA was in my county the next day handing out water,and food as well as providing shelter. What went wrong in NOLA and along the Gulf Coast?  There is no answer that won't dissolve into a political food fight.



Your county (which wasn't hit directly) wasn't below sea level and cut off due to flooded roads and downed bridges. That's what "went wrong". After the hurricane I went through FEMA wasn't in my neighborhood for three days due to downed trees and a bridge being out.


Nagin not only didn't give the order to evacuate early enough, and didn't provide transportation for those who didn't have any, he stuffed a massive amount of people into the Superdome without sufficient food, water, medical attention or security. Those issues were his responsibility.


It's amazing to me that the "20/20 hindsight" excuse is dragged out for Nagin, the guy who caused the situation to be so dire to begin with, yet we bring out the hangman's noose for Bush, when the worst that can be said of FEMA is that they should have been there 24 hours earlier and that they erred in counting on information from Nagin/Blanco instead of turning on CNN.



My county took more of a hit from Charley than any place along the Mississippi coast took from Katrina.


Funny you didn't say harder than New Orleans...because there are places along the Mississippi Gulf coast that got hit HARDER than New Orleans.  Where is all the press for them?  Could it be that it showing poor white folks trying to make it after a disaster just doesn't make for nearly as good TV as showing poor BLACK folks and making it a racial issue???


Anyone who talks about a "chocolate city" is a racist and an idiot.


I was a big FEMA fan. they put things right in Fl and again in my Jersey neighborhood after some big time rains broke a series of dams causing massive flooding. FEMA, good people, johnny on the spot! But Katrina? Hmm... maybe it was a race thing?



Did anyone else just hear the loud thud?  It was Bondguy's credibility...it just fell over and died.


Yes Bondguy, our government hates black people, that's it.  Actually, you probably believe Spike Lee's theory, that Bush sent Frogmen down in Helicopters during the storm and BLEW the levies... 


Jul 25, 2007 1:52 am
BondGuy:
mikebutler222:
BondGuy:

After Charley FEMA was in my county the next day handing out water,and food as well as providing shelter. What went wrong in NOLA and along the Gulf Coast? There is no answer that won't dissolve into a political food fight.


Your county (which wasn't hit directly) wasn't below sea level and cut off due to flooded roads and downed bridges. That's what "went wrong". After the hurricane I went through FEMA wasn't in my neighborhood for three days due to downed trees and a bridge being out.


Nagin not only didn't give the order to evacuate early enough, and didn't provide transportation for those who didn't have any, he stuffed a massive amount of people into the Superdome without sufficient food, water, medical attention or security. Those issues were his responsibility.


It's amazing to me that the "20/20 hindsight" excuse is dragged out for Nagin, the guy who caused the situation to be so dire to begin with, yet we bring out the hangman's noose for Bush, when the worst that can be said of FEMA is that they should have been there 24 hours earlier and that they erred in counting on information from Nagin/Blanco instead of turning on CNN.



My county took more of a hit from Charley than any place along the Mississippi coast took from Katrina.


The Mississippi coast didn’t have a delay in seeing FEMA, NOLA did.


BondGuy:

I was a big FEMA fan. they put things right in Fl and again in my Jersey neighborhood after some big time rains broke a series of dams causing massive flooding. FEMA, good people, johnny on the spot! But Katrina? Hmm... maybe it was a race thing?


Again with the incredibly foolish race card. The situation was completely different. Your place in Florida didn’t take the hit and get the flooding NOLA got. It’s like saying you had a bruise and got good treatment at the ER, but the guy behind you that had been thrown a 100 ft in a bike crash was abused by the ER staff.


You really don’t want to hear about FEMA and Hugo or Bertha.


BondGuy:

As for the rest of your post, an 80% evacuation rate speaks for itself.


Spare me (and who knows where this “80%“ number comes from). It wasn’t just that Nagin didn’t evacuate in time, or that he didn’t provide transportation, it is the fact, which you keep ignoring, that he didn’t have in place in the Superdome what he should have. No food, no water, no medical assistance, no security.


You’re making BS excuses for the disaster he (and Blanco) created there and hammering FEMA on ludicrous grounds, and all for transparent partisan considerations. Had the Superdome not been the unmitigated disaster that he’d made it, those people wouldn’t have been suffering, and FEMA’s 24 hour delay wouldn’t have been as critical. As I pointed out, FEMA didn’t get to my neighborhood for three days, but it wasn’t a CNN worthy situation because we, as a community, had plans in place to take care of ourselves until help could arrive.



Jul 25, 2007 11:02 am
mikebutler222:


Your county (which wasn't hit directly) wasn't below sea level and cut off due to flooded roads and downed bridges. That's what "went wrong". After the hurricane I went through FEMA wasn't in my neighborhood for three days due to downed trees and a bridge being out.


Nagin not only didn't give the order to evacuate early enough, and didn't provide transportation for those who didn't have any, he stuffed a massive amount of people into the Superdome without sufficient food, water, medical attention or security. Those issues were his responsibility.


It's amazing to me that the "20/20 hindsight" excuse is dragged out for Nagin, the guy who caused the situation to be so dire to begin with, yet we bring out the hangman's noose for Bush, when the worst that can be said of FEMA is that they should have been there 24 hours earlier and that they erred in counting on information from Nagin/Blanco instead of turning on CNN.



My county took more of a hit from Charley than any place along the Mississippi coast took from Katrina. [/quote]


The Mississippi coast didn’t have a delay in seeing FEMA, NOLA did.


Wrong. FEMA delayed getting into MS as well as NOLA. More so, it's still a mess today, and that' all FEMA incompetence. Most of the casinos are back, up and running. Go just a few blocks in from the coast along the entire coast of MS and it's block after block of ruined houses. As of July 12,2007 24,000 FEMA trailers still house over 65,000 MS residents. FEMA finds one reason after another to withold resources to these cities.


BondGuy:

I was a big FEMA fan. they put things right in Fl and again in my Jersey neighborhood after some big time rains broke a series of dams causing massive flooding. FEMA, good people, johnny on the spot! But Katrina? Hmm... maybe it was a race thing?


Again with the incredibly foolish race card. The situation was completely different. Your place in Florida didn’t take the hit and get the flooding NOLA got. It’s like saying you had a bruise and got good treatment at the ER, but the guy behind you that had been thrown a 100 ft in a bike crash was abused by the ER staff.


Relax, I'm not playing the race card. I offer race as a reason for lack of any credible reason why this agency would show such massive incompetence in one area, primarily black, while being an model of effeciency in another area, wealthy white. I can see why social pundants raise the question. My own believe is that the response had nothing to do with race. That said, just because I personally believe that race wasn't a factor doesn't mean it wasn't. To fully understand what happened we must be open to all possibilities. In the end with katrina, the social outcome, it may be the perception that matters more than the reality. And the perception points to race being a factor. Unfortunately.


You really don’t want to hear about FEMA and Hugo or Bertha.


BondGuy:

As for the rest of your post, an 80% evacuation rate speaks for itself.


Spare me (and who knows where this “80%“ number comes from).


The 80% number comes from NOAA. The put the number as double the expected rate.


You’re making BS excuses for the disaster he (and Blanco) created there and hammering FEMA on ludicrous grounds, and all for transparent partisan considerations. Had the Superdome not been the unmitigated disaster that he’d made it, those people wouldn’t have been suffering, and FEMA’s 24 hour delay wouldn’t have been as critical. As I pointed out, FEMA didn’t get to my neighborhood for three days, but it wasn’t a CNN worthy situation because we, as a community, had plans in place to take care of ourselves until help could arrive.


Nagin didn't create the disaster. That would be mother nature. There is some evidence linking Hurricane formation to solar flares. Still, Within the NOLA emergency disaster plan the Superdome was a refuge of last resort.


Nagin managed to pull of the the most massive evacution in U.S. history. You point the finger at him for failures only because the only other alternative is pointing it at your boy Bush.




[/quote]


The questionstands:


Name just one Bush success?

Jul 25, 2007 11:20 am
BankFC:
BondGuy:
mikebutler222:
BondGuy:

After Charley FEMA was in my county the next day handing out water,and food as well as providing shelter. What went wrong in NOLA and along the Gulf Coast?  There is no answer that won't dissolve into a political food fight.



Your county (which wasn't hit directly) wasn't below sea level and cut off due to flooded roads and downed bridges. That's what "went wrong". After the hurricane I went through FEMA wasn't in my neighborhood for three days due to downed trees and a bridge being out.


Nagin not only didn't give the order to evacuate early enough, and didn't provide transportation for those who didn't have any, he stuffed a massive amount of people into the Superdome without sufficient food, water, medical attention or security. Those issues were his responsibility.


It's amazing to me that the "20/20 hindsight" excuse is dragged out for Nagin, the guy who caused the situation to be so dire to begin with, yet we bring out the hangman's noose for Bush, when the worst that can be said of FEMA is that they should have been there 24 hours earlier and that they erred in counting on information from Nagin/Blanco instead of turning on CNN.



My county took more of a hit from Charley than any place along the Mississippi coast took from Katrina.


Funny you didn't say harder than New Orleans...because there are places along the Mississippi Gulf coast that got hit HARDER than New Orleans.  Where is all the press for them?  Could it be that it showing poor white folks trying to make it after a disaster just doesn't make for nearly as good TV as showing poor BLACK folks and making it a racial issue???


Anyone who talks about a "chocolate city" is a racist and an idiot.


I was a big FEMA fan. they put things right in Fl and again in my Jersey neighborhood after some big time rains broke a series of dams causing massive flooding. FEMA, good people, johnny on the spot! But Katrina? Hmm... maybe it was a race thing?



Did anyone else just hear the loud thud?  It was Bondguy's credibility...it just fell over and died.


Yes Bondguy, our government hates black people, that's it.  Actually, you probably believe Spike Lee's theory, that Bush sent Frogmen down in Helicopters during the storm and BLEW the levies... 




So let's see, FEMA shows up in my wealthy white neighborhood like johnny on the spot handing out bottles of Evian. The do this not once but four times spread over two different states 1000 miles apart. But this same FEMA is nowhere to be found when the victims are poor black people?


I don't believe for a minute that race played a part in the Katrina response. Yet, I can understand the perception that it did. I believe the Katrina response was botched by  arrogant bureacrats running departments staffed with legions of christian college degree mill incompetents. Take a shot at me for that.


What's interesting is that by my just posing race as a possiblity has gotten your white boy racist short and curlys so twisted that you feel a need to take a swing at me.


That said, you might want to do a little reseach into just how well our government has treated black men. From using them as unwitting lab rats in medical experiments to the getto army of Nam, not pretty.


If you really don't like people asking questions of their leaders you are living in the wrong country.


Jul 25, 2007 11:28 am

Wrong. FEMA delayed getting into MS as well as NOLA.


No, it wasn't. People in MS were never in the dire straights that Nagin left the people of NOLA in.


More so, it's still a mess today, and that' all FEMA incompetence.


Wrong, yet again. FEMA doesn't rebuild communities, they didn't rebuild mine. They provide emergency relief. They provide temporary housing. They don't and can't make homeowners come back and take advantage of the programs to help them rebuild. You've talked out your 4th point of contact on a number of parts of this issue, but on this one you're really blowing smoke. After Hugo it took parts of Charleston better than five years to be rebuilt, and that wasn't FEMA's fault. That's not their mandate. People refuse to return, some end up in lawsuits before they can rebuild, others sell their property as is, and the new owners don't rebuild immediatly. You already heard about Nagin and the junk car removal, that's not a FEMA issue either.



BondGuy:

I was a big FEMA fan. they put things right in Fl and again in my Jersey neighborhood after some big time rains broke a series of dams causing massive flooding.


Your minor weather issue is nothing, nothing compared to the damage caused by a Cat V hurricane and it's simply foolish to pretend the complexity level is anywhere near the same. Again, I've lived through this, you haven't. Two weeks without power, and it wasn't FEMA's fault. Please don't bring up your tiny experience with high water and a distant hurricane when the subject is the full fury and destruction of a CAT V hurricane, much less a levy collapse.




BondGuy:

FEMA, good people, johnny on the spot! But Katrina? Hmm... maybe it was a race thing?


Again with the incredibly foolish race card. The situation was completely different. Your place in Florida didn’t take the hit and get the flooding NOLA got. It’s like saying you had a bruise and got good treatment at the ER, but the guy behind you that had been thrown a 100 ft in a bike crash was abused by the ER staff.


Relax, I'm not playing the race card. I offer race as a reason ...


You played the race card, and it's becoming a habit.



You really don’t want to hear about FEMA and Hugo or Bertha.


BondGuy:

As for the rest of your post, an 80% evacuation rate speaks for itself.


Spare me (and who knows where this “80%“ number comes from).


The 80% number comes from NOAA. The put the number as double the expected rate.


Do cite the source, and while you're patting Nagin on the back, do explain how he managed to put all those people in the Superdome without food, water, medical care and security. You're simply spewing partisan garbage here.


You’re making BS excuses for the disaster he (and Blanco) created there and hammering FEMA on ludicrous grounds, and all for transparent partisan considerations. Had the Superdome not been the unmitigated disaster that he’d made it, those people wouldn’t have been suffering, and FEMA’s 24 hour delay wouldn’t have been as critical. As I pointed out, FEMA didn’t get to my neighborhood for three days, but it wasn’t a CNN worthy situation because we, as a community, had plans in place to take care of ourselves until help could arrive.


Nagin didn't create the disaster. That would be mother nature.


Nagin called for evacuation late, he created the disaster at the Superdome, the complete collapse of the NOLA government, to include the police, is on him. Had he handled ANY of those issues correctly FEMA's 24 hour delay in getting there wouldn't have raised an eyebrow.

Jul 25, 2007 11:33 am
BondGuy:

So let's see, FEMA shows up in my wealthy white neighborhood like johnny on the spot handing out bottles of Evian. The do this not once but four times spread over two different states 1000 miles apart. But this same FEMA is nowhere to be found when the victims are poor black people?


Again pretending that the situation YOU were in and the CAT V hurricane and levy collapse NOLA was in are even remotely the same thing. Stunning, simply stunning. I can assure you FEMA wasn't "johnny on the spot" despite their best efforts after Hugo, and they didn't have to contend with the flooded city and downed bridges they faced in their efforts to relieve a city under sea level.


Just not worthy of futher response. You're really embarrassed yourself on this one...

Jul 25, 2007 2:45 pm
mikebutler222:
BondGuy:

So let's see, FEMA shows up in my wealthy white neighborhood like johnny on the spot handing out bottles of Evian. The do this not once but four times spread over two different states 1000 miles apart. But this same FEMA is nowhere to be found when the victims are poor black people?


Again pretending that the situation YOU were in and the CAT V hurricane and levy collapse NOLA was in are even remotely the same thing. Stunning, simply stunning. I can assure you FEMA wasn't "johnny on the spot" despite their best efforts after Hugo, and they didn't have to contend with the flooded city and downed bridges they faced in their efforts to relieve a city under sea level.


Just not worthy of futher response. You're really embarrassed yourself on this one...



Mike I'm going to make a bet with you. Here's the deal;


Get on a bus or whatever type of transport you can afford and get yourself to Punta Gorda Florida. Once there, go up to every person you can find and tell them to stop whining over the minor league weather event they experienced.


The bet is that the first person over 12 years old that you dump that on puts you on the ground.


By the way, Punta Gorda, ground zero for H. Charley, 21 miles north of my house. Which puts me closer to ground zero of a major hurricane than any of the devestated MS towns.


And could you at least get your facts straight. Katrina was only a Cat 3 storm when it made landfall with 125mph sustained winds. Meanwhile my minor league by comparision weather event, Charley, made landfall with 150mph sustained winds. But don't let the facts get in the way of a good diatribe. You look to indict my statements without knowing what your talking about. I know you aren't embarrassed but you should be.


As for a link to NOAA, if you won't take the one minute it takes to find the NOLA info why should i waste my time giving you the link? you won't believe what you read anyway, because it vindicates Nagin.


Mikey, there is nothing wrong with disliking Nagin. i don't like him either. But disputing known facts casts you in a poor light.


Get back to me and let me know how it goes in Punta Gorda. That is after you pick up your teeth.


Jul 25, 2007 3:25 pm
BondGuy:
mikebutler222:
BondGuy:

So let's see, FEMA shows up in my wealthy white neighborhood like johnny on the spot handing out bottles of Evian. The do this not once but four times spread over two different states 1000 miles apart. But this same FEMA is nowhere to be found when the victims are poor black people?


Again pretending that the situation YOU were in and the CAT V hurricane and levy collapse NOLA was in are even remotely the same thing. Stunning, simply stunning. I can assure you FEMA wasn't "johnny on the spot" despite their best efforts after Hugo, and they didn't have to contend with the flooded city and downed bridges they faced in their efforts to relieve a city under sea level.


Just not worthy of futher response. You're really embarrassed yourself on this one...



Mike I'm going to make a bet with you. Here's the deal;


Get on a bus or whatever type of transport you can afford and get yourself to Punta Gorda Florida. Once there, go up to every person you can find and tell them to stop whining over the minor league weather event they experienced.



<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 







Charley, 25 deaths in the <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />US.



Katrina, 1700+ deaths in the US



http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/pix622/h.html



“I never saw a FEMA help center in My AREA for six days after Hurricane Charley - THE NEAREST FREE WATER WAS MILES AWAY –“


 


BTW, Bondguy, you do realize the FEMA you praise in Florida and the FEMA you diss in NOLA were both run by Micheal Brown, the infamous "Brownie", right?


Now, what could be the differences between the "fine" FEMA in Florida and the horribel one in NOLA?


Let's see, Florida had a CAT IV landing, no levy breaks, city above sea level. NOLA had a CAT V landing, heavy flooding, broken levies, down bridges and a city below sea level.


Florida had  competent leadership at the state and local level, NOLA had the keystone cops.



Yep, obvious Bush failed....

Jul 25, 2007 4:19 pm
mikebutler222:
BondGuy:
mikebutler222:
BondGuy:

So let's see, FEMA shows up in my wealthy white neighborhood like johnny on the spot handing out bottles of Evian. The do this not once but four times spread over two different states 1000 miles apart. But this same FEMA is nowhere to be found when the victims are poor black people?


Again pretending that the situation YOU were in and the CAT V hurricane and levy collapse NOLA was in are even remotely the same thing. Stunning, simply stunning. I can assure you FEMA wasn't "johnny on the spot" despite their best efforts after Hugo, and they didn't have to contend with the flooded city and downed bridges they faced in their efforts to relieve a city under sea level.


Just not worthy of futher response. You're really embarrassed yourself on this one...



Mike I'm going to make a bet with you. Here's the deal;


Get on a bus or whatever type of transport you can afford and get yourself to Punta Gorda Florida. Once there, go up to every person you can find and tell them to stop whining over the minor league weather event they experienced.



<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 







Charley, 25 deaths in the <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />US.



Katrina, 1700+ deaths in the US



http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/pix622/h.html



“I never saw a FEMA help center in My AREA for six days after Hurricane Charley - THE NEAREST FREE WATER WAS MILES AWAY –“



BTW, Bondguy, you do realize the FEMA you praise in Florida and the FEMA you diss in NOLA were both run by Micheal Brown, the infamous "Brownie", right?


Now, what could be the differences between the "fine" FEMA in Florida and the horribel one in NOLA?


Let's see, Florida had a CAT IV landing, no levy breaks, city above sea level. NOLA had a CAT V landing, heavy flooding, broken levies, down bridges and a city below sea level.


Florida had  competent leadership at the state and local level, NOLA had the keystone cops.



Yep, obvious Bush failed....



Mike, LOL, try cat 3 for NOLA. At least get that right. but just to be clear Katrina cat 3, Charley cat 4. Now, for the uninformed, katrina was at one point a cat 5. Which is good stuff for those like to exagerate. However, at landfall, the only time that counts, Katrina was a weak Cat 3.


For crying out loud, give it up, your pinned.


I let you get away with misstating the facts about Katrina in post after post and when I finally call you on your use of misinformation you change debate from storm strength to storm dollar losses. That's funny.


If Charley had hit NOLA instead of, by NOLA standards, relatively unpopulated Punta Gorda the NOLA numbers would have been worse.


Charley, the non weather event in your eyes, was a far stronger storm.


You really need to stop.


Have you booked a ticket to SW Florida yet?


Still waiting for the Bush success stories.

Jul 25, 2007 4:23 pm

However, at landfall, the only time that counts, Katrina was a weak Cat 3.


Cat 1, Cat 2, Cat 3, Cat 10,000.  Who cares?  Isn't it the damage done what counts?

Jul 25, 2007 4:26 pm
BondGuy:
mikebutler222:
BondGuy:
mikebutler222:
BondGuy:

So let's see, FEMA shows up in my wealthy white neighborhood like johnny on the spot handing out bottles of Evian. The do this not once but four times spread over two different states 1000 miles apart. But this same FEMA is nowhere to be found when the victims are poor black people?


Again pretending that the situation YOU were in and the CAT V hurricane and levy collapse NOLA was in are even remotely the same thing. Stunning, simply stunning. I can assure you FEMA wasn't "johnny on the spot" despite their best efforts after Hugo, and they didn't have to contend with the flooded city and downed bridges they faced in their efforts to relieve a city under sea level.


Just not worthy of futher response. You're really embarrassed yourself on this one...



Mike I'm going to make a bet with you. Here's the deal;


Get on a bus or whatever type of transport you can afford and get yourself to Punta Gorda Florida. Once there, go up to every person you can find and tell them to stop whining over the minor league weather event they experienced.



<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 







Charley, 25 deaths in the <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />US.



Katrina, 1700+ deaths in the US



http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/pix622/h.html



“I never saw a FEMA help center in My AREA for six days after Hurricane Charley - THE NEAREST FREE WATER WAS MILES AWAY –“



BTW, Bondguy, you do realize the FEMA you praise in Florida and the FEMA you diss in NOLA were both run by Micheal Brown, the infamous "Brownie", right?


Now, what could be the differences between the "fine" FEMA in Florida and the horribel one in NOLA?


Let's see, Florida had a CAT IV landing, no levy breaks, city above sea level. NOLA had a CAT V landing, heavy flooding, broken levies, down bridges and a city below sea level.


Florida had  competent leadership at the state and local level, NOLA had the keystone cops.



Yep, obvious Bush failed....



Mike, LOL, try cat 3 for NOLA. At least get that right. but just to be clear Katrina cat 3, Charley cat 4. Now, for the uninformed, katrina was at one point a cat 5. Which is good stuff for those like to exagerate. However, at landfall, the only time that counts, Katrina was a weak Cat 3.


For crying out loud, give it up, your pinned.


I let you get away with misstating the facts about Katrina in post after post and when I finally call you on your use of misinformation you change debate from storm strength to storm dollar losses. That's funny.


If Charley had hit NOLA instead of, by NOLA standards, relatively unpopulated Punta Gorda the NOLA numbers would have been worse.


Charley, the non weather event in your eyes, was a far stronger storm.


You really need to stop.


Have you booked a ticket to SW Florida yet?


Still waiting for the Bush success stories.




Wow, BG, that's a pretty long post just to find a way to dodge the question about how FEMA was "johnny on the spot" (your characterization) under Brownie in Florida and an unmitigated disaster in NOLA, again, under Brownie....

Jul 25, 2007 4:32 pm
anonymous:

However, at landfall, the only time that counts, Katrina was a weak Cat 3.


Cat 1, Cat 2, Cat 3, Cat 10,000.  Who cares?  Isn't it the damage done what counts?




Of course that's all that matters. Look at the dollar figures and the death counts. NOLA had biblical flooding due to Katrina and the levy break. Had NOLA NOT been under sea level it would have been a different story.


However, let's not for get the key issue here, BG himself has nothing for praise for the Brownie led FEMA in Florida (you know he had to be unaware about the Brownie led angle). It's only when FEMA operated in a more difficult enviroment and with a keystone cop Mayor/Gov. combination that FEMA became a disaster. Gee, and Brownie and Bush are still to blame?

Jul 25, 2007 4:35 pm

"I let you get away with misstating the facts about Katrina ..."


That's partially true, Katrina wasn't a CAT V when it hit (Hugo was, MY hurricane), then again, it wasn't the actual hurricane that caused the biggest problems in below-sea level NOLA, that was flooding.