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Nov 14, 2008 9:35 pm

Bonus bracket number one! Aren't we special!?

Nov 16, 2008 10:31 pm

The rest of the industry is cutting jobs. Edward Jones is still in the bonus bracket. Is there really anything to cry about?

Nov 17, 2008 10:19 am

good point bk, lets keep things in perspective.  The market sucks, the industry sucks, the jobless claims suck, the global economy sucks, our new president sucks, the weather sucks, the bears/packers game sucked, our current president sucks.... but we're still in a bonus bracket... keep perspective.

Nov 17, 2008 8:57 pm

mrjones147,
Based on your previous posts you are years away from a bonus if you are even really w/Jones.  Repeated questions about salary, etc.  Is your point just to stir up crap?  You insult all of us at all firms.  Go out and earn the right to bitch.  Don't just come here and do it for free.  Plenty of things to complain about without you making up your bs.

Nov 17, 2008 11:57 pm

If you really want to participate in the Jones bonus bracket, I can help you. Just send me $10, and I'll send back $1.  If you're lucky, I'll put you in a "higher" bracket, and send you back $2! 


Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Nov 18, 2008 9:53 am
now_indy:

If you really want to participate in the Jones bonus bracket, I can help you. Just send me $10, and I'll send back $1.  If you're lucky, I'll put you in a "higher" bracket, and send you back $2! 


Sorry, I couldn't resist.
 
Huh?
Nov 18, 2008 10:41 am

I was referring to the bonus bracket "funnel."  It could take thousands in "profit" generated by the rep, and squeeze it down to a few hundred bucks in actual bonus. 

 
In my example above, I used 10 or 20%, but I don't think it was even that much.  If a rep generates $1000 in profit, I don't think he would see $100 on his paycheck (especially in the lower bonus brackets).
 
Basically, the rep generates enough commission to pay himself 40%, cover his location (assistant, rent, etc.), cover his share of the green machine (home office expenses, etc.). Anything above that is "profit."  So, basically Jones is saying thanks for generating $1000 profit, here's less than $100 back.  I understand that the $1,000,000 producers may get more than that, but the mid-size guys ($200k - $500k) don't see much of that profit.
Nov 18, 2008 6:54 pm

I've heard it all now.  A negative post because a firm DOES share profit.  Can't you come up with a legitimate complaint?  By the way your "facts" are wrong too.  In 2007 a $600,000-$750,000 producer who did not have ridiculous expenses would have had a six figure profit payout.  That is $xxx,xxx.  That is not seeing much?  Also, a $200k producer is not mid-sized.  How is a mid-sized $200k producer gonna cover "his location (assistant, rent, etc.), cover his share of the green machine (home office expenses, etc.)." and have a paycheck no matter what his payout is?  You must have an axe to grind.

Nov 18, 2008 8:59 pm

ytrewq, I'll tell you why.  Because half the "indy's" (the half that are mostly the whiners on this board) that leave Jones were doing 200K or less, so that's their baseline.  What they seem to forget is the thousands of FA's doing serious amounts of business.  The guy I trained under, about 10 years in the business, has 85mm AUM give or take (this was 3 years ago).  He had given away 15mm in a GK, so he had been at about 100mm previously.  The guy "works" 3 days a week (if you can call it working), and he nets about 215K.  I know, I know, he has to pay taxes, which somehow, most indies claim they don't have to pay.  And he has to buy that damn toilet paper.  So he barely works, grosses about 500K, and nets about 245K (not including his profit sharing, which last year was about 10K).  So profit sharing + commission/bonus was about 50% payout.  And he didn't pay for his BOA, his rent, his utilities, his employer FICA, etc., etc., etc., and they provide benefits.  He also doesn't spend squat on advertising, seminars, etc.  SO he has almost no "office" expenses to speak of.

 
Compared to many indies, after expenses, that is not too far off.  Now, Indy is right, if you were only producing 200K, you get no bonus, your profit sharing is lower, and chances are you are spending more money on useless marketing stuff.  SO a 200K producer will be FAR better off indy than at Jones (or any wirehouse).
 
I think I just opened a can o' worms.
Nov 19, 2008 1:31 am
B24:

ytrewq, I'll tell you why.  Because half the "indy's" (the half that are mostly the whiners on this board) that leave Jones were doing 200K or less, so that's their baseline.  What they seem to forget is the thousands of FA's doing serious amounts of business.  The guy I trained under, about 10 years in the business, has 85mm AUM give or take (this was 3 years ago).  He had given away 15mm in a GK, so he had been at about 100mm previously.  The guy "works" 3 days a week (if you can call it working), and he nets about 215K.  I know, I know, he has to pay taxes, which somehow, most indies claim they don't have to pay.  And he has to buy that damn toilet paper.  So he barely works, grosses about 500K, and nets about 245K (not including his profit sharing, which last year was about 10K).  So profit sharing + commission/bonus was about 50% payout.  And he didn't pay for his BOA, his rent, his utilities, his employer FICA, etc., etc., etc., and they provide benefits.  He also doesn't spend squat on advertising, seminars, etc.  SO he has almost no "office" expenses to speak of.

 
Compared to many indies, after expenses, that is not too far off.  Now, Indy is right, if you were only producing 200K, you get no bonus, your profit sharing is lower, and chances are you are spending more money on useless marketing stuff.  SO a 200K producer will be FAR better off indy than at Jones (or any wirehouse).
 
I think I just opened a can o' worms.
My trailing 12 at Jones was 250K and I realize that doesn't make me a big producer but c'mon man, saying 50% of the people that went indy were doing less than 200K doesn't make you look like the smart guy that I know you to be. My net is 70% and I believe that is better than any LP out there......  At jones what you have to realize is that the people doing 300K or less are by far the majority... In my old region of 39 brokers only 6 brokers were exceeding 350K on a trailing 12, I know because I was on the leadership group. If you look around the country you will see many repeats of this in different regions with the exception of certain more affluent areas. At jones to have a 100M book you have to hve a huge nr of housholds and you can't possibly service them, you are compelled to have the GK to take care of that problem. The optimum nr of households that 1 broker can service properly is somewhere around 400. The average mature Jones person have 1000-1200 households. Why not have a 400 household book with 250K average size giving you 100M AUM?
Nov 19, 2008 7:25 am

noggin,
To point out a couple of conflicting statements in your post:
"At jones what you have to realize is that the people doing 300K or less are by far the majority..."  Yet you then say "saying 50% of the people that went indy were doing less than 200K
doesn't make you look like the smart guy that I know you to be."
It cannot be both.  The math does not work.  If the majority are low producers, the majority leaving must be low producers.  Unless you are suggesting only bigger producers leave and we both know that is factually wrong.
"The average mature Jones person have 1000-1200 households."  Come on.  Accounts maybe, households no way.  That is crazy.  I am beyond average and mature and have 1/2 that number of households.
"Why not have a 400 household book with 250K average size giving you 100M AUM? "
Duh.  Why did Jones not think of this?  So.....if the accounts are larger, we need less of them to have more assets under management.  Are you suggesting we did not realize this, we turn down larger accounts, or what?  I am going to call all of my clients and tell them I want them to have more money.  That way I will have more assets without more accounts.  That was easy.
I am not here defending Jones but I am defending facts and accuracy. 
There are plenty of faults at Jones and other companies for that
matter.  No need to make up faulty logic and shaky facts.
B

24 I agree completely with "SO a 200K producer will be FAR better off indy than at Jones (or any wirehouse)."  I am just suggesting FAR better off isn't going to be very good compared to what we expect in this industry.  A lot of $ will come out of that $200,000 before the rep sees the paycheck. 

Nov 19, 2008 8:42 am
noggin:
B24:

ytrewq, I'll tell you why. Because half the "indy's" (the half that are mostly the whiners on this board) that leave Jones were doing 200K or less, so that's their baseline. What they seem to forget is the thousands of FA's doing serious amounts of business. The guy I trained under, about 10 years in the business, has 85mm AUM give or take (this was 3 years ago). He had given away 15mm in a GK, so he had been at about 100mm previously. The guy "works" 3 days a week (if you can call it working), and he nets about 215K. I know, I know, he has to pay taxes, which somehow, most indies claim they don't have to pay. And he has to buy that damn toilet paper. So he barely works, grosses about 500K, and nets about 245K (not including his profit sharing, which last year was about 10K). So profit sharing + commission/bonus was about 50% payout. And he didn't pay for his BOA, his rent, his utilities, his employer FICA, etc., etc., etc., and they provide benefits. He also doesn't spend squat on advertising, seminars, etc. SO he has almost no "office" expenses to speak of.



Compared to many indies, after expenses, that is not too far off. Now, Indy is right, if you were only producing 200K, you get no bonus, your profit sharing is lower, and chances are you are spending more money on useless marketing stuff. SO a 200K producer will be FAR better off indy than at Jones (or any wirehouse).



I think I just opened a can o' worms.
My trailing 12 at Jones was 250K and I realize that doesn't make me a big producer but c'mon man, saying 50% of the people that went indy were doing less than 200K doesn't make you look like the smart guy that I know you to be. My net is 70% and I believe that is better than any LP out there...... At jones what you have to realize is that the people doing 300K or less are by far the majority... In my old region of 39 brokers only 6 brokers were exceeding 350K on a trailing 12, I know because I was on the leadership group. If you look around the country you will see many repeats of this in different regions with the exception of certain more affluent areas. At jones to have a 100M book you have to hve a huge nr of housholds and you can't possibly service them, you are compelled to have the GK to take care of that problem. The optimum nr of households that 1 broker can service properly is somewhere around 400. The average mature Jones person have 1000-1200 households. Why not have a 400 household book with 250K average size giving you 100M AUM?





Nogg,

I don't disagree with you. A vast number of Jones FA's have huge numbers of clients. I don't necessarily agree with the philosophy, but I'm not building my book that way, either. For the record, I also don't lump all indy's together in the same category either. You alos have to consider the area you work/live. In my area, where Jones has little presence, I think the first office in our 3-state area opened like 16 years ago. So there are very few big producers. And of those, most have the 1000 HH's you are referring to. But when you look around the country, there are many FA's that have much more tenure, much more assets, and often fewer households (or more). I was not trying to point out our business model, I was really just talking about the bonus/payout structure. And I agree, most indy's are going to net more than most Jones FA's (or any wirehouse FA's). But when you look at someone doing 500K gross, who nets 50%, but also has all the overhead paid for, it would be very competitive with some indy offices. If you can do $1mm at Jones, and still keep your overhead low, you could be netting 55-60%, plus all those expenses paid. When you exceed a certain production number, the indy model vs. regional/wire model is not as big a difference. But my other point was that the perspective of most former Jones FA's on this board (not all) is from someone doing 100-250K gross, so naturally you will net much more being indy. To be honest, if I find a few years down the road that I somehow plateau at 250-350K, and can't/won't work to increase it, I would most likely look at indy options. But right now it's easier to focus on business building than running the business.

Nov 19, 2008 10:01 am

ICE, you are probably right, although most of the indy offices I have seen or read about doing 1mm in production have several support staff, a nice sized office, etc.  I would guess the typical 1mm indy has 3-5 support staff.  Whether people want to agree or not, there are a lot of things you get from Jones or the wires as far as home-office support that you cannot get as an independant (without paying for).  A typical 1mm producer at Jones has two or three admins fully paid for (though it reduce your profitablilty/bonus).  In a million-dollar practice, you are probably going to buy a all the best software, have a great office, have good planning/support staff, admin staff, probably advisors beneath you taking a cut of that $1mm.  No, it's not EVERY case.  But as I read different case studies about this industry, it certainly seems to me that most large indy offices tend to have much more support staff than the regionals or wires - and usualyl it's because they can provide more unique and personalized service.  And I am not saying that's bad.  I actually think that's a great thing.  But you are not going to find a little one-man show with a part-time secretary in a one-room office doing a $1mm in revenue.

Nov 19, 2008 10:02 am

I won't write a long post here, but I can say that it IS easier being an INDY than Jones, hands down.  When you have a great month, you get paid like it was a great month.  Even when you have a bad month (I've had a couple here recently) you STILL net a better payout than at Jones. Thats it...this whole...I don't want to worry about paying rent or payroll..blah blah blah is..well..bullshit.  I spend 20 minutes every two weeks to print off the paychecks, a few minutes on the 14th of every month to pay Fed taxes, online.  I spend a few minutes in the  morning paying any bills that need paid..you know rent/mortgage, phone, advertising bill.  I STILL time block to make calls, I still have appts, I still f off on this site.  I just get paid better...Its not better to be Indy vs Jones or Wirehouse overall, its just if you have the nuts to build something for yourself. If you need the name behind you...then that is the best route..if you're good at what you do and mature enough to do it..then putting your name on the door is ok.

Nov 19, 2008 12:42 pm
B24:

ytrewq, I'll tell you why.  Because half the "indy's" (the half that are mostly the whiners on this board) that leave Jones were doing 200K or less, so that's their baseline.  What they seem to forget is the thousands of FA's doing serious amounts of business.  The guy I trained under, about 10 years in the business, has 85mm AUM give or take (this was 3 years ago).  He had given away 15mm in a GK, so he had been at about 100mm previously.  The guy "works" 3 days a week (if you can call it working), and he nets about 215K.  I know, I know, he has to pay taxes, which somehow, most indies claim they don't have to pay.  And he has to buy that damn toilet paper.  So he barely works, grosses about 500K, and nets about 245K (not including his profit sharing, which last year was about 10K).  So profit sharing + commission/bonus was about 50% payout.  And he didn't pay for his BOA, his rent, his utilities, his employer FICA, etc., etc., etc., and they provide benefits.  He also doesn't spend squat on advertising, seminars, etc.  SO he has almost no "office" expenses to speak of.

 
Compared to many indies, after expenses, that is not too far off.  Now, Indy is right, if you were only producing 200K, you get no bonus, your profit sharing is lower, and chances are you are spending more money on useless marketing stuff.  SO a 200K producer will be FAR better off indy than at Jones (or any wirehouse).
 
I think I just opened a can o' worms.
 
I'm sure his clients would be thrilled to hear all about how little time he puts in on their behalf. 
 
Ah...the beauty of big commissions and asset allocation funds. We don't even have to engage our brains anymore. Is there not something sickening about this picture?
 
I'm embarrassed to be a part of this racket.
Nov 19, 2008 12:56 pm

Borker, I never said he didn't service his clients. But does someone with 400 clients need to work 40 hours per week analyzing their investments? It's not like you call every client every month. Yes, you talk to your better clients every month. But I would guess that his better clients are about 150-200 of those. Once you are done with the prospecting and adding new clients time in your career, the service side takes a lot less time than you think.



And you know NOTHING about this guy, nothing about how he manages money, NOTHING about his service to his clients. He happens to be very well-respected in his commmunity, focuses on estate-planning, generally does NOT use asset allocation funds, has mostly retired clients, uses a lot of muni bonds, individual stocks and SMA's (as well as funds of course), and is very conservative in his investment philosophy. He generally only takes new clients by referral (from 3 estate planning attorneys in his city), as he does not want to outgrow his ability service his clients. He also works three days a week, because he had a massive heart attack a few years ago, and needs to go to physical therapy, as well as take care of himself. But you wouldn't know that, would you. You just assume he's another Jones American Funds schlepp that doesn't know what he's doing. So tell me, what part of that setup is a "racket"?

Nov 19, 2008 1:27 pm

When you first stated he was a Jones broker.....

Nov 19, 2008 1:46 pm
bspears:

When you first stated he was a Jones broker.....

 

 
I must say Spears, you do have a knack for the obvious and humorous.
 

 
Nov 19, 2008 2:10 pm
 [/quote]
 
I'm sure his clients would be thrilled to hear all about how little time he puts in on their behalf. 
 [/quote]
 
That guy probably spends 95 percent of his time on existing clients. ... Now, I'm sure MY clients would be thrilled to hear that I (or any other new broker) devote about 5 percent of my time to existing clients and the rest of it to chasing prospects.
 
 
 
 
Nov 19, 2008 3:53 pm

In defense of Borkers comments, I started having those same thoughts while at Jones.  I just felt sleazy in the way I was trained and the way the vets were telling me how they do business.  I made the change and man has my attitude toward the industry changed.  Do yourself a favor and move on Borker...move on...You will be one happy m fker when you do...you will come back here and be bspears2...