MS Syndicate Changes

[quote=fritz]

Brokers under 300K trailing 12 soon to be blocked from doing syndicate business.  Also to correct and earlier post where I said "brokers under 350-375K to be cut," new number being seriously discussed is 300K.  300K either going to be getting 20% payout or told to hit the bricks in November.  Butler may dispute this, but the syndicate blocking is a way for guys in the high 200's to drop off in production and get a nudge out the door.

[/quote]

So the new date is November? What happened to August? 

I do not know what does into their decisions.  I could have never imagined the Syndicate issue would come up.  Do you think cutting off access to syndicate for guys doing 275K is a good sign for their job future with MS?

Cant wait for the next cuts to go down... I have about 60 MS prospects in a separate folder in my Outlook.... Ready to go.... Come on Gorman, make a move big guy....

Mikey B- I am just doing a public service to make sure the clients are being cared for....

[quote=fritz]

I do not know what does into their decisions.  I could have never imagined the Syndicate issue would come up.  Do you think cutting off access to syndicate for guys doing 275K is a good sign for their job future with MS?

[/quote]

I don't think it's true, fritz. There is a points system of some sort for equities, has been for a while. I have to admit I'm not familiar with it, but I doubt they'd incorporate production. The current "penalty box" limit is pretty low, under 250k, I think. So I wouldn't be shocked if it were to increase, but that's another issue.

The problem (being serious with you for a second, not yanking your chain) with these theories is 1) they sound like the typical rumor-mongering that's a part of every firm 2) they don't make much financial sense given production averages in the business 3) we've heard these over and over again and Gorman has explicitly denied them.

On #2, we've talked about it before, but if you dropped everyone below $300k over, say LOS 5 (I think I'm getting your earlier numbers right, if not feel free to correct me) even with a production average of $570k for the firm, you'd be cutting a massive number of brokers. You have to look not just at average production, but how that average is distributed.

BTW, fritz, seriously, who’s including you in high level talks? 

 I know the MS office in our town is down to a three person team. I have never seen there office with out a rookie or two onboard to bring in new business for the team.  &n bsp;    

  They are in a very high rent location in town I cannot see them making a profit from that location much longer. There clients are so easy to bring over all you have to do is talk to them.

Happy to be INDY!

[quote=Greenbacks]

 I know the MS office in our town is down to a three person team. I have never seen there office with out a rookie or two onboard to bring in new business for the team.  &a mp;n bsp;    

  They are in a very high rent location in town I cannot see them making a profit from that location much longer. There clients are so easy to bring over all you have to do is talk to them.

Happy to be INDY!

[/quote]

I'd stick to talking to them if I were you. You sure wouldn't want to send them anything in a written form. 

Good luck to you.

The syndicate is change is set(as of Dec production)…There was a conferance call the other day. Mike B you could have listened to the call, no secrets. Brokers under 300K have no access to IPO’s or secondaries going forward.  If you think that is a good sign for guys doing under 300K, that is up to you. 

Let's keep kicking our brokers like dirt, that'll improve retention.

Quite frankly, I'm pretty sick of syndicate.  I fight with my BM all the time because my team isn't pushing the deal of the month.  He posts the list of brokers and how much business they are doing.  He pushes for 100% participation and puts out emails when some one "takes the lead."

[quote=fritz]

300K either going to be getting 20% payout or told to hit the bricks in November. 

[/quote]

I could see them raising the penalty box from 200k up to 250 or 300 this november, since that is when all the compensation changes are usually announced.  This won't be a mass firing, it will just be a way of pushing more brokers away.

[quote=fritz]The syndicate is change is set(as of Dec production)..There was a conferance call the other day. Mike B you could have listened to the call, no secrets. Brokers under 300K have no access to IPO's or secondaries going forward.  If you think that is a good sign for guys doing under 300K, that is up to you.  [/quote]

No access to secondaries? No way. I'd have to hear this one for myself.

[quote=iconsult100][quote=fritz]

300K either going to be getting 20% payout or told to hit the bricks in November. 

[/quote]

I could see them raising the penalty box from 200k up to 250 or 300 this november, since that is when all the compensation changes are usually announced.  This won't be a mass firing, it will just be a way of pushing more brokers away.

[/quote]

I think the penalty box will be raised, in fact, I'd bet on it. However, the math just doesn't hold up for all the threats to 300k producers. That would just affect too many.

Mike the no access to deals has been announced,  IPO's AND secondaries...Very easy for you to confirm, the announcement was cut and dry.  Next thing no preferred's (just kidding on that, all you can shovel there).

Call syndicate they will confirm it for you...Brokers under 300K as of Dec production. 

My bet is for 300K and penalty box for 8+ 20% payout. 

[quote=fritz]

Mike the no access to deals has been announced,  IPO's AND secondaries...Very easy for you to confirm, the announcement was cut and dry.  Next thing no preferred's (just kidding on that, all you can shovel there).

Call syndicate they will confirm it for you...Brokers under 300K as of Dec production. 

My bet is for 300K and penalty box for 8+ 20% payout. 

[/quote]

Were you on the call? Have you seen this memo? I have to tell you, that's a major change, I was with district management just today and there wasn't a mention of it.

You also seem to not understand how large a number brokers under 300K over eight is. The cut of 1,000 was a much lower bar of 225k over 8. I can see the box being raised, the rest I don't buy.

[quote=iconsult100][quote=fritz]

300K either going to be getting 20% payout or told to hit the bricks in November. 

[/quote]

I could see them raising the penalty box from 200k up to 250 or 300 this november, since that is when all the compensation changes are usually announced.  This won't be a mass firing, it will just be a way of pushing more brokers away.

[/quote]

iconsult, have you heard any of this syndicate stuff fritz is talking about? The "hit the bricks" stuff is just an update of the Feb, mar, apr may, jun and july deadline stuff we've been hearing since last year, imho.

[quote=mikebutler222]iconsult, have you heard any of this syndicate stuff fritz is talking about? The "hit the bricks" stuff is just an update of the Feb, mar, apr may, jun and july deadline stuff we've been hearing since last year, imho.[/quote]

I havent' heard of that, I'm going to have to hear it for myself.  I never even heard about this conference call.

Again, I think it's probable that the penalty box goes up, but I think any other firings will be 225k producers, or people in offices that are being closed, or support staff.  Nothing big enough to warrant media attention.

One other "at risk" group might be smaller brokers who do not get the growth bonus.

The deal is that if T12 is below 300k then your syndicate index drops to zero. So it is true that you could be shut out of all IPOs and secondaries. Pretty bad deal, considering it takes some time and effort to build up a decent index number.

I can also understand the penalty box being raised. But for advisors working on ramping up production over 300k why take away business.

What’s next, no computer unless 300k.

I don’t think Gorman will make cuts because he doesn’t want to rock the boat since he has stated many times he wasn’t going to cut. Notice how when most of the trainees were let go, it was okay because they weren’t actually FAs.

[quote=Lewis]The deal is that if T12 is below 300k then your syndicate index drops to zero. So it is true that you could be shut out of all IPOs and secondaries. .[/quote]

That makes a little more sense. When was the last time you saw something on the equity syndicate calendar that people couldn't get access to due to a low index, that is something over-subcribed. That wouldn't have affected, say, BWC or HCF, the sort of thing most people are doing.

I think, 1) penalty box (recruits excluded) will raise to 300, for los 8+, 2) the tier 1 and tier 2 will merge into one grid, 3) they will allign team gross to reflect aggregate gross so if 3 guys that each do 250 get together, they do 750 and are entitled to the benefits of a 750 producer (this is a maybe).

I don't know why people are do upset...realistically, if you are doing this job over 8 years and deal with everything we deal with and are not making AT LEAST 100k annually, you should see a psych! Who could live in America in a HH making under 100k and still live comfortably and save for retirement and college for kids.

Mike…every share in our office is hotly contested…does not matter if is an IPO or a secondary…Bottom line is this is a big change and disadvantage for many many people…Lewis said it well, by saying why penalize a guy trying to make it…This place is sending a clear message that we don’t give a damn if guys around 300K leave or stay.  Leave if you want, or stay here and take it up the ass.

[quote=fritz]Mike...every share in our office is hotly contested...does not matter if is an IPO or a secondary...Bottom line is this is a big change and disadvantage for many many people...Lewis said it well, by saying why penalize a guy trying to make it...This place is sending a clear message that we don't give a damn if guys around 300K leave or stay.  Leave if you want, or stay here and take it up the ass.[/quote]

I think the message is be over 300k if you're LOS 8 or greater. Frankly, that's not a surprise, is it? It isn't as if there's anther round of firing, as you've been saying. Consider it an incentive, and you have almost 1/2 this year left to make sure you hit that minimal $300k so it doesn't even affect you next year. Seriously, please do explain to me, as a shareholder, why I want to employ chronic underachievers, who also, btw, turn out to be the bigest legal liabilities?

And, it's the INDEX, it's not the same as saying you can't get any IPOs, much less any secondaries. The only time it will matter is when something is subscribed to the point that the index is used to place people. That means the big production items like BWC and others shouldn't be affected, but you won't get the next Google. Then again, IPO production has always been part of the index, so how much Google did people under $300k get to begin with? It's not the same thing as saying under $300k and you get no IPOs or secondaries.

I think SB and others already have a high quoto for their brokers 8+ LOS…

Mike being it is friday I would not bother writing unless your statement way off, which it is on allocation of shares.  Our Branch has an index of .30 which is a rank in the region.  Each broker has their own index.  My index .20 meaning for instance on the valero deal last night, of the 3000 shares the branch got, I get 600 shares.  Every share in our branch is spoken for, if your index entitles you to less than 100 shares you get nothing.  An index of 0 means "0."  You usually have some decent insite, but you obviously are guessing on this one.  20 guys on our office put in for every deal, good or bad. 

As for you comment of 300K should take a hint...in 2001 when some guys got cut at 150K, the comment was they deserved it.  In 2005 when 225 got cut the comment was they deserved it...Now at 300K starting to hear the same thing...Where does it stop?

I remember in 2000 my 3rd year in the business did 215K, region management came and shook my hand for reaching AVP status and a handed me a certificate.  Now a few years later 300K and your a piece of crap.  Hard to be too confident about the future for guys doing 300-500K, my trailing 12 is at 302,000 and I am not confident.  Do not know if 375K would make me feel too confident either.

I apologize for the long winded response.

fritz:

I remember in 2000 my 3rd year in the business did 215K, region management came and shook my hand for reaching AVP status and a handed me a certificate. 

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Gee, when I was with Dean Witter, in the early '90's, you had to hit $250k to receive the AVP status.

200K in 2000…Can’t remember if it was still Dean Witter at the time…With all the abuse (pay cuts, convert your book to online trading 29.95, the fund of the month, the 6 managers in 8 years, the 4 region managers, the office taking the 2nd floor for more brokers, then immediately subleasing it out to a janitorial co., no payout on accts 35K and under, x-mas party going from fancy hotels to the managers backyard, 9 sales assistants) over the last 8 years i’m kind of brain dead.

You do the cold deals to get some of the hot deals.

With a zero index you may as well forget about the allocated part of syndicate business.

But hey, do more New Issue Closed End funds, just be ready to explain why they hold up for 45 days and then drop 10%(Mark up + average discount to NAV).

fritz:

200K in 2000..Can't remember if it was still Dean Witter at the time...With all the abuse (pay cuts, convert your book to online trading 29.95, the fund of the month, the 6 managers in 8 years, the 4 region managers, the office taking the 2nd floor for more brokers, then immediately subleasing it out to a janitorial co., no payout on accts 35K and under, x-mas party going from fancy hotels to the managers backyard, 9 sales assistants) over the last 8 years i'm kind of brain dead.

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 Yeah, I know what you mean. My first year at Dean Witter, the Xmas party was at the Savannah Yacht Club. Sounds fancy, till you realize all DW provided was a DJ, finger food, and beer. The second year Xmas party was at the home of one of the brokers. Then, it was all down hill from there.

One year, DW coughed-up some bucks for us to attend a broker conference in Orlando. The main speaker was a DW broker who made it big time, by becomimg the "go-to" broker for retirees from Motorola. All his clients were in DW mutual funds. The airline, booked by DW to fly us down to Orlando, went bankrupt, stranding us there. We had to rent a car to drive back home.... Yeah, top shelf organization!

[quote=fritz]

Mike being it is friday I would not bother writing unless your statement way off, which it is on allocation of shares.  Our Branch has an index of .30 which is a rank in the region.  Each broker has their own index.  My index .20 meaning for instance on the valero deal last night, of the 3000 shares the branch got, I get 600 shares.  Every share in our branch is spoken for, if your index entitles you to less than 100 shares you get nothing.  An index of 0 means "0."  You usually have some decent insite, but you obviously are guessing on this one.  20 guys on our office put in for every deal, good or bad. 

And not getting that 600 shares of the Valero deal would be the end of your career at MS (but, being over $300k, you're not at danger on that)?  How big a part of your business is IPO to begin with?

As for you comment of 300K should take a hint...in 2001 when some guys got cut at 150K, the comment was they deserved it.  In 2005 when 225 got cut the comment was they deserved it...Now at 300K starting to hear the same thing...Where does it stop?

It doesn't, ever.

BTW, notice that you're mixing guys getting cut ($150 and then $225 LOS >8) with things like being excluded from hot syndicate items. If you're still trying to claim there will be a cut of everyone under $300k, I'm still here to disagree with you. If you've changed to the subject to MS trying hard to push people over $300k or push them away, I'm in total agreement with you.

I remember in 2000 my 3rd year in the business did 215K, region management came and shook my hand for reaching AVP status and a handed me a certificate.  Now a few years later 300K and your a piece of crap. 

"Piece of crap"? A tad of an exaggeration there, eh? I mean, you could still qualify for the productivity bonus, couldn't you?

Hard to be too confident about the future for guys doing 300-500K, my trailing 12 is at 302,000 and I am not confident.  Do not know if 375K would make me feel too confident either.

IMHO, and not to be cruel, but you're taken to not feeling "confident" as your string of posts on this subject shows. You really mark that doubtful future range to run as high as $500k? You do realize that's like 60% or more of the firm, right?

OTOH, Gorman's made it pretty clear there will be no room for low producers, and fairly recently "low producer" was defined as >LOS 8, under $225 in production. If you plan is to settle in for life at some production level like $300k is your goal, MS or any other wirehouse, for that matter, just isn't the place. If you want to be >LOS 8 and doing $300k, you'll be happier at a regional or maybe indy. Give it serious consideration, and I don't say that just to give you crap.

I apologize for the long winded response.

Not a problem. At least we've moved you off the everybody-under-$300k-is-getting-the-ax stuff.

[quote=doberman]

fritz:

200K in 2000..Can't remember if it was still Dean Witter at the time...With all the abuse (pay cuts, convert your book to online trading 29.95, the fund of the month, the 6 managers in 8 years, the 4 region managers, the office taking the 2nd floor for more brokers, then immediately subleasing it out to a janitorial co., no payout on accts 35K and under, x-mas party going from fancy hotels to the managers backyard, 9 sales assistants) over the last 8 years i'm kind of brain dead.

------------------------------

 Yeah, I know what you mean. My first year at Dean Witter, the Xmas party was at the Savannah Yacht Club. Sounds fancy, till you realize all DW provided was a DJ, finger food, and beer. The second year Xmas party was at the home of one of the brokers. Then, it was all down hill from there.

One year, DW coughed-up some bucks for us to attend a broker conference in Orlando. The main speaker was a DW broker who made it big time, by becomimg the "go-to" broker for retirees from Motorola. All his clients were in DW mutual funds. The airline, booked by DW to fly us down to Orlando, went bankrupt, stranding us there. We had to rent a car to drive back home.... Yeah, top shelf organization!

[/quote]

DW was never more than 3rd tier. Scrubbing out that last bit (mostly hanger-on B-share loving old DW dinosaurs) of DW is Gorman's only real goal. 

Mike the ax stuff is info I have been told by people who supposedly have been in meetings.  I have no idea about it's accuracy..My feeling about 300k not safe is an opinion based on actions taking place.

What is the "exaggeration about the avp at 200K"? that happened and it happened exactly as I wrote, so wtf are you talking about?  Mike Noble who was the region puppet who came to hand out the awards and pronounce to all that "they are the future of the firm" then he got canned less than a year later. 

and as for the 600 valero, that was an IPO, some secondaries can allocate 1500-2000 shares on good sized deals.  The business is one of the last lucrative pieces of business for brokers to get paid well...In a good market 10-12 deals a month...you obviously don't do the business which shows from your comments which are not informed.  Genworth deal last year had a 15,000 allocation (9K gross).

I guess I should get my business from 300 to the 400/500 range, but I think anyone who spends too much time on this career which splits 65/35 with the house is an idiot...(me included) and I can't muster up the energy to work the extra 2 hours a day.  Maybe I'll start ramping it up tomorrow, but I doubt it. I'll sell you my book when I finally grab my balls and walk out the backdoor.

[quote=fritz]

Mike the ax stuff is info I have been told by people who supposedly have been in meetings. 

I'd stop listening to them, given how manyt times they've given you bad deadlines in the past. Simply look at the number of people that would be affected by a cut at $300k and ask yourself if that number sounds resonable. (Hint: it isn't)

 I have no idea about it's accuracy..My feeling about 300k not safe is an opinion based on actions taking place.

I say again, count how many would be affected by a cut @ $300k. It ain't gonna happen.

What is the "exaggeration about the avp at 200K"?

That's not what I said. Read the post again. "exaggeration" was in reference to your "piece of crap" comment.

and as for the 600 valero, that was an IPO, some secondaries can allocate 1500-2000 shares on good sized deals. 

1) You're not getting cut if you production is above $300k as you've said. 2) It isn't in effect now. 3) If access to 600 shares is the difference between success and failure, I agree, you should be worried.

 The business is one of the last lucrative pieces of business for brokers to get paid well...In a good market 10-12 deals a month...you obviously don't do the business which shows from your comments which are not informed.  Genworth deal last year had a 15,000 allocation (9K gross).

"10 -12 deals a month"? When was that, 2000?

I guess I should get my business from 300 to the 400/500 range, but I think anyone who spends too much time on this career which splits 65/35 with the house is an idiot...(me included) and I can't muster up the energy to work the extra 2 hours a day. 

At least you're honest with yourself. I'd go indy if I were you, but somehow I doubt you'll avoid that extra two hours a day if you become responsible for the entire operation of the office.

Maybe I'll start ramping it up tomorrow, but I doubt it. 

In all fairness, what it sounds like is you're not happy in the biz and you're looking for a reason to leave. Life's too short and this job's too hard to do it if you're unhappy. Seriously, consider doing something that will make you happy.

I'll sell you my book when I finally grab my balls and walk out the backdoor.

Sounds good to me.