Jones Secrets Revealed, Part 6

Sure.  That is standard in most Bank insurance platforms as well.  The trails and any ongoing commissions from insurance premiums are assigned to the insurance agency.  I image that somewhere in the contract you signed with Jones are similar provisions.

As an independent, I made sure the agencies that I have contracted with do not have that provision.  The up-line from me does still take a small rake off of the commission but my pay out is still 100% to me and not overridden by the B/D.

Even thought they still get the trails, you can have the client sign a letter that they want you to be the servicing agent.  That way the statements will no longer go to Jones or the guy who took over your office. You may not be getting the trails, but your client will perceive YOU as the agent and they will have dropped off of the B/D radar.

Wow, this one is news to me. I never delivered a LTC policy at EJ. I guess now I have been made into a liar when I told clients anything they bought or invested in with me at EJ could be taken to any other firm. This stinks for the big ltc producer gone indy. Better educate the greatest salesforce to not tell their clients the same thing I did for many years.

I had a Hartford Leaders contract purchased 5-6 years ago and was amazed to find out that somehow Jones was named as the owner. In order to transfer to my new b/d, or me to become broker of record, an ownership change had to happen from Jones back to the client. Until I figured it out. I know the contract was qualified so I am betting that's what triggered the unique ownership?

Now I may have done something wrong originally, but is this common where some b/d retain ownership of the contract? Another indy had the same problem, so I am assuming that this was standard at Jones.

Take a stab at who kept the trails when I left?  Curious if anyone else experienced the same.

Yes. Jones is named as the owner on qualified contracts and the client has to request to have ownership transfered back to themselves if/when you leave.  I found this out the hard way when a client I had transfered an IRA VA to Jones and who then followed me when I went independent was no longer the owner of their own annuity contract.  He was pretty irritated to discover that the mere fact of transfering the annuity contract to me when at Jones caused him to lose owership.  Big pain in the butt.

Also. Jones does not keep mutual fund cost basis information that can be transfered to other firms.  All the funds in a family (American, Franklin etc) are held in a bulk holding of Jones as far as the fund families are concerned.  They cannot go back and find out cost basis information of funds at Jones. They have no history.  So......the moral of that story is keep track somehow yourself so if/when you leave Jones you can help your clients with cost basis. 

My former firm kept the cost basis, but refused to provide it to clients…even with a written request from the client.  Nice, huh?

[quote=babbling looney]

Also. Jones does not keep mutual fund cost
basis information that can be transfered to other firms.  All the
funds in a family (American, Franklin etc) are held in a bulk holding
of Jones as far as the fund families are concerned.  They cannot
go back and find out cost basis information of funds at Jones. They
have no history.  So…the moral of that story is keep track
somehow yourself so if/when you leave Jones you can help your clients
with cost basis. 

[quote=Indyone]My former firm kept the cost basis, but refused to provide it to clients…even with a written request from the client.  Nice, huh?[/quote]

Unbelieveable, and certainly not in the clients’ best interest.  One could suggest this is pretty unethical.  I wonder if it would help to drop a dime to the NASD…

Regardless it is petty behavior like that which gives us all a black eye with the public.

[quote=joedabrkr] [quote=Indyone]My former firm kept the cost basis,
but refused to provide it to clients…even with a written request from
the client.  Nice, huh?[/quote]

Unbelieveable,
and certainly not in the clients’ best interest.  One could
suggest this is pretty unethical.  I wonder if it would help to
drop a dime to the NASD…

Regardless it is petty behavior like that which gives us all a black eye with the public.
[/quote]



I agree, if nothing else this firm will create major problems with the
IRS for clients. No way that you can “lose” this information with all
the NASD data retention requirements.

Babs-

Thanks for the confirmation. Cost basis has been a nightmare. I now have clients signing letter requesting their info and then my assistant continues to follow up. Two wI eeks ago we received a letter from Jones refusing to disclose cost basis for a retirement account. They felt it wasn't necessary since any income taken would only be subject to ordinary income taxes not capital gains.

I was amazed when I  read that the greatest company in the world would treat any client, former or current, in this manner. After all doesn't a client have the right to know how much they have paid for their investments, including div's reinvested in any account?

Note. I was in a meeting several years ago in SL when someone asked the multi-millionaire GP MIS director, Rich Malone,  why we didn't participate in the national cost basis ACAT system. He said the assistants at the branches did a better job of keeping track. BS. Again.

OK Spiffy. Tell us why it doesn't matter. Defend your company. We are all waiting.

Is the GP pay(home office GP’s that is)  public info…Like Jim Weddle, John Bachman, and Kevin Alm?

If so where do you find it?

[quote=AllREIT] [quote=babbling looney]

Also. Jones does not keep mutual fund cost basis information that can be transfered to other firms.  All the funds in a family (American, Franklin etc) are held in a bulk holding of Jones as far as the fund families are concerned.  They cannot go back and find out cost basis information of funds at Jones. They have no history.  So......the moral of that story is keep track somehow yourself so if/when you leave Jones you can help your clients with cost basis. 

[/quote]

This seems wierd, how do EDJ clients calculate their schedule D's then?[/quote]

While at Jones the company keeps all that information and the client's get their regular 1099's.  The issue would arise when the clients moved their accounts elsewhere.  Unless they (or I) kept manual records of mutual funds interest and dividends reinvested and additional purchases into the funds, when they transferred out Jones would not give up that information without a fight and the Fund Company didn't have that info either.  The mutual fund companies didn't have record of individual accounts just that there were eventykabilion dollars in Captial Income Builder as a bulk account. 

Actually servicing the customer's account and providing detailed tax information beyond the selling point was not a very big priority in the Jones "playbook".  It was so simplistic.  Here is what you invested  and here is the value today with no breakout of what was reinvested or what what capital growth.

Maybe it is different now, but the biggest nightmare was cost basis on the systematic buying of stocks.  Jones has/had a system where people could buy $100 min a month of a stock for a small fee ($4.00 I think it was?).  The money was pooled among many clients and the stock bought as a block and then distributed to each account.  Actually, pretty nice for the smaller investor to accumulate stock without going directly to a drip program at the transfer agent.

In my practice now, I keep track of all purchases on a spread sheet for each client so that when it comes time to sell, we can decide which shares for them to declare on their tax returns for gains and hopefully not loses .   The cost basis system on the B/D platform also allows us to designate blocks of stock and funds with different cost basis figures.  This really helps me with my larger stock holding accounts with multiple cost figures (some inherited, some bought all at different times.)

OK, I'll bite.  What's up with the personal attack?  I haven't even chimed in yet and you're already dragging me in? 

Actually, as far as the cost basis info goes, I agree with you.  I think it's stupid that info like that doesn't transfer from firm to firm.  Not just from Jones to somewhere else, but everywhere. 

Maybe I'm stepping on a land mine, but I really don't know why you need cost basis on a qualified account.  Amount invested for tracking investment returns I understand, but not cost basis.  I actually called American Funds this morning and asked about a client's IRA held there.  They don't have cost basis for her IRA.  They don't keep it.  They were happy to provide copies of statements so we can build her account history.  Why don't you ask the client to bring in their EDJ statements and you can have your assistant figure it out.  I can't imagine American Funds is the only vendor that doesn't track it.  Why don't you explain to me, no teach me, foot, why you need "cost basis" for an IRA account.   

I don't think the former employer Indyone was talking about is Jones, so it's not just our problem.  

I figured the "Jones Secret" the original poster revealed about the LTC thing was pretty common knowledge.  Guess not.  I love how this place turns an industry practice into a Jones secret in a heartbeat.  

[quote=footsoldier]Babs-

Thanks for the confirmation. Cost basis has been a nightmare. I now have clients signing letter requesting their info and then my assistant continues to follow up. Two wI eeks ago we received a letter from Jones refusing to disclose cost basis for a retirement account. They felt it wasn't necessary since any income taken would only be subject to ordinary income taxes not capital gains.

I was amazed when I  read that the greatest company in the world would treat any client, former or current, in this manner. After all doesn't a client have the right to know how much they have paid for their investments, including div's reinvested in any account?

Note. I was in a meeting several years ago in SL when someone asked the multi-millionaire GP MIS director, Rich Malone,  why we didn't participate in the national cost basis ACAT system. He said the assistants at the branches did a better job of keeping track. BS. Again.

OK Spiffy. Tell us why it doesn't matter. Defend your company. We are all waiting.[/quote]

While not ideal, I didn't spend much time getting cost basis on IRAs.  If it was easy to get, I put it in.  Otherwise, I just use performance reports to evaluate client holdings and report to the client.

It's been some work, but I'm down to just a handful of non-IRA clients that I need to finish up cost basis reconstruction.  After some hard lessons, I make it a priority to have the client get cost basis information prior to the move.  Sure, it usually raises a flag with the current advisor, but it eliminates a lot of headaches going forward.

For the record, I think it's petty, juvenile and ridiculous not to help departing clients transfer cost basis information and LPL makes it very easy for clients transferring out...sending it electronically to those firms which can receive it that way, and giving good information on client statements if they can't receive it electronically.  I never refused anyone who asked asked.  I know of at least one large (7-figure) banking relationship that my former employer is losing as a result of refusal to cooperate...how stupid is that?!!!

Why don't you explain to me, no teach me, foot, why you need "cost basis" for an IRA account

Because inquiring minds want to know?  Seriously the client probably would like to know the breakdown between invested amount, reinvested cap gains and dividends and the actual underlying growth in the account to determine exactly where the growth is coming from.  I would want to know.  Why shouldn't the client have that information available to them?  It isn't just qualified accounts from Jones that lack this information.

Why don't you ask the client to bring in their EDJ statements and you can have your assistant figure it out.

Yeah...that'll be fun.  Let's take 4  to 6 years of statements (if the client still has them) and hand calculate the reinvested dividends and capital gains AND get the purchase price of every systematic investment into the fund or stock.  Very effective use of time.

Of course that is the method to the madness.  Make it so hard and inconvenient for the client to leave Jones, that some will just say never mind and stay put.

As I prepare to move, I’ve changed all client statements to in-depth over that last couple months.  As I’m looking at one it seems to have all the info I need.  Therefore, client brings in most recent statement to my new office and bingo?  Is there anything I’m missing?  With time to prepare it would be great to know ahead.

[quote=babbling looney]

Yes. Jones is named as the owner on qualified contracts and the client has to request to have ownership transfered back to themselves if/when you leave.  I found this out the hard way when a client I had transfered an IRA VA to Jones and who then followed me when I went independent was no longer the owner of their own annuity contract.  He was pretty irritated to discover that the mere fact of transfering the annuity contract to me when at Jones caused him to lose owership.  Big pain in the butt.

[/quote]

Same thing happened to me. We had to have JONES sign the paperwork to bring it to me.  It was a qualified Hartford VA that I bought electronically over the Jones system, and was setup with Jones as the owner/custodian.  Jones eventually signed the forms, but not before we had to get Hartford involved.  They had to call Jones at least twice to see what the holdup was. Yes, big pain in the butt.

It just seems wong to have a B/D be the OWNER of a contract…If I were a client, I’d have a hard time understanding that…heck as an advisor, I have a hard time understanding that…

[quote=Indyone]It just seems wong to have a B/D be the OWNER of a contract…If I were a client, I’d have a hard time understanding that…heck as an advisor, I have a hard time understanding that…[/quote]

The b/d is the “legal owner” as trustee for a qualified plan.  That’s what they’re talking about.  That would be the case at ANY b/d with a contract owned by a trustee in a QP.

Think back to your CFP exam and the definition of a trust and especially a trustee.  Technically the definition of the trustee includes the concept that they take legal title of an asset for benefit of the “beneficiaries”.

aw, JoedaCFP2B…I don’t remember all that crap…you learn it for the exam, then POOF…what you don’t use everyday is gone!  At any rate, thanks for clearing that up…

SPIKED-

It's not just LTC Trails- don't expect to ever see Life Insurance trails either.  I did several nice large ILIT's - EDJ Trust Company of course- and EDJ does not have to release these fees.

The Edward Jones Insurance Company funnels the money through first and dispenses it back out to GP's.

Pretty good racket, actually.

[quote=babbling looney]

Why don't you explain to me, no teach me, foot, why you need "cost basis" for an IRA account

Because inquiring minds want to know?  Seriously the client probably would like to know the breakdown between invested amount, reinvested cap gains and dividends and the actual underlying growth in the account to determine exactly where the growth is coming from.  I would want to know.  Why shouldn't the client have that information available to them?  It isn't just qualified accounts from Jones that lack this information.

[/quote]

I have to admit something.  This forum actually taught me something.  I was reviewing a client's SEP this morning looking at her Franklin Global Smaller Co's seeing some decent growth.  Then I looked at her Cost Basis/Unrealized G/L and saw a red number denoting a loss.  We invested $8777 10/05 took out $396 last year for her RMD and today its worth $10,777. 

Bab's comment rung in my head like my third grade teacher telling me to stop slouching.  I realized that she is right.  I don't have any way to tell (without digging out old statements) what was growth, dividends, or Cap Gains. 

With that said, the client doesn't care.  She's up 27.5% in 16 months.  That's what she cares about.  But this inquiring mind would like to know and understand.  Guess I'll wire a GP and see if I can get a straight answer.   

Time to move her to AGTHX.  

Bab's comment rung in my head like my third grade teacher telling me to stop slouching

My work here is done....

[quote=munytalks]

SPIKED-

It's not just LTC Trails- don't expect to ever see Life Insurance trails either.  I did several nice large ILIT's - EDJ Trust Company of course- and EDJ does not have to release these fees.

The Edward Jones Insurance Company funnels the money through first and dispenses it back out to GP's.

Pretty good racket, actually.

[/quote]

My staff handled the specifics, so I don't know them, but we were able to do a block transfer of residual commissions on my Hartford policies after the agent change was done. We needed an EJ sign-off, but if it is bigger dollars, go to the trouble. I am fairly sure it can be done.

Even on my own term policy with Protective I was able to transfer to myself as broker of record. But Jones still gets paid on the trails and the new agent at Jones is listed as broker of interest.

[quote=babbling looney]

Why don't you ask the client to bring in their EDJ statements and you can have your assistant figure it out.

Yeah...that'll be fun.  Let's take 4  to 6 years of statements (if the client still has them) and hand calculate the reinvested dividends and capital gains AND get the purchase price of every systematic investment into the fund or stock.  Very effective use of time.

[/quote]

Do you really have other pressing things to do?

You somehow find the time to spend the majority of every day on this forum.  

Thanks EXED-

All of my LTC policies were written with GENWORTH.  All of my Life Policies with Hartford.  I appreciate the heads up.  I will have my assistant get right on it.

You aren’t continuing to place everything with one company, are you?

Mr. Anonymous,

When it comes to LTC in California I don't see anything better than Genworth.  I know the product inside and out.  I feel very comfortable selling just one product when it comes to LTC.  I do have access to other providers but I choose to give my clients the best.

Then you don't sell much LTCi.  Genworth is the best sometimes.  Sometimes, it isn't.  LTCi is very much dependent on the circumstances of the individual client.  

It's great that you know the product inside and out.  If you are going to sell the product, it's important that you also understand their competition's product inside and out.

I'll give you an example of when Genworth doesn't do the trick.   Client owns a business set up as a sole proprietor.  His wife works for him.  The business can buy a policy on the employee (his wife) and she can put him (the business owner) on the policy as a joint insured.  The premium is 100% deductable and it doesn't have to be included as income.   Genworth can't do this because their joint policies are two separate contracts.

Here are some other reasons why Genworth might not be the best for a client.

1)Different companies have different sweet spots based upon age of the insured.  Different combinations of benefits cause different companies to be better values.  For example: John Hancock won't give Ultra Preferred Rates with life time benefits.

2)Different companies underwrite differently.  A specific condition may cause someone to be standard with Genworth and ultra preferred with someone else.

3)Since LTC carriers don't guarantee rates, this needs to be a concern.  Genworth's long history of not raising rates is used as a selling point.  It actually scares the heck out of me.  All the carriers that have lots of old business on the books can expect to have major claims.  The policies in the past were way underpriced.  Most of the big mutual companies stayed out of the business because they knew that it could not be priced at a profitable level.  I would also argue that their long history of not raising prices does not have meaning know that they are no longer owned by GE.  From a price increase standpoint, one should feel much safer with a big Mutual company like Northwestern Mutual, New York Life, or MassMutual.

My only point with this is that if you are going to do the best for your client with LTCi, your cases need to be shopped.  Sometimes Genworth will be the best.

I just came across this table and thought it interesting.



Legal Actions Against Retail Brokerage Firms Between 2001 and 2002



Complaints per Million Retail Accounts*

------------------------------------------------

1.5        Fidelity Brokerage Services

2.6        Credit Suisse First Boston

4.8        Edward D. Jones & Co.

6.1        Charles Schwab

6.5        American Express Financial Advisors

7.2        TD Waterhouse Investor Services

7.3        E*Trade Securities

8.4        Salomon Smith Barney

8.9        Quick & Reilly

9.8        UBS PaineWebber

10.6        Raymond James & Associates

11.5        A.G. Edwards

11.9        Ameritrade

12.1        Merrill Lynch

14.9        Wachovia Securities

20.2        Morgan Stanley

27.5        Prudential Securities

63.3        U.S. Bancorp Piper Jaffray



*Source data: http://www.financial-planning.com/pubs/fpi/

20030701102.html





Deduce from it what you will…

That is very interesting… I’d bet that the average has dropped substantially in the last couple of years.

This chart as many statistics are skewed.  Jones has way more accounts than any of the other's mentioned.  When you are investing $100/month it's hard to sue somebody!

Mr. Anon,

I'm glad you mentioned those other providers.  I do believe that the CARE Coordinator is the most valuable part of the Genworth policy.

[quote=Incredible Hulk] [COLOR=GREEN]That is very interesting… I’d bet

that the average has dropped substantially in the last couple of years. [/

COLOR][/quote]



You could be right. People don’t complain when they’re making money.



Still, I wonder what Fidelity does so right, and Piper Jaffrey does so wrong!

I wonder where all the bank and independent broker dealers are…if anything, you’d think that bank brokers would have higher complaint rates because of all the “confusion” caused by bank-sold non-FDIC investments…at least that’s what the regulators thought when banks got into the biz…

[quote=Philo Kvetch]I just came across this table and thought it interesting.



Legal Actions Against Retail Brokerage Firms Between 2001 and 2002



Complaints per Million Retail Accounts*

------------------------------------------------

1.5        Fidelity Brokerage Services

2.6        Credit Suisse First Boston

4.8        Edward D. Jones & Co.

6.1        Charles Schwab

6.5        American Express Financial Advisors

7.2        TD Waterhouse Investor Services

7.3        E*Trade Securities

8.4        Salomon Smith Barney

8.9        Quick & Reilly

9.8        UBS PaineWebber

10.6        Raymond James & Associates

11.5        A.G. Edwards

11.9        Ameritrade

12.1        Merrill Lynch

14.9        Wachovia Securities

20.2        Morgan Stanley

27.5        Prudential Securities

63.3        U.S. Bancorp Piper Jaffray



*Source data: http://www.financial-planning.com/pubs/fpi/

20030701102.html





Deduce from it what you will…[/quote]

LPL is not on the list at all…wonder why?

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//–>Hey, just wanted to let you all know that what was said about not being able to transfer LTC or Life Insurance policies sold at EDJ to your new B/D is incorrect.  When I first left Jones in '04, I was told the same thing, but I still tried.  I was told that I was allowed to become a servicing agent but commisions could not follow me.  I was very aggravated and gave up.  Two years later (last year) I decided to try again and it worked. 

This is what I found out.  First of course, be appointed with the company.  What you need to do then is find out if the ins co. has their own LOA to do this or is one put together by the client (you) OK.  Genworth does not, but Hancock and Hartford do as I recall.  Have the client sign the LOA and then you sign it as well.  The client’s part should basically say that they want you to become the agent of record and to receive all future commissions on the policy (yes the client will have to know this).  Your part says that you accept the policy.

Next, believe it or not, you have to forward this LOA to the Insurance Department at EDJ and have a GP sign off on it!  I thought for sure that this where I would hit the brick wall, but to my huge surprise the GP did sign them - and it was about 30 policies!  That part of the LOA will basically say that EDJ releases this policy including all future commissions to the new agency.  Just so you know, all the ins. companies accepted faxes, so I faxed all these up to EDJ and they faxed it back to me within a few days with a couple of follow up calls. 

After you get them back, then forward them to the ins. company.  I will tell you, Genworth will not make this process easy.  They consistently said that they would not do this.  I had to have someone in my back office deal with a contact they had at Genworth to get it done.  Hartford and Hancock were easy.

All in all it was a bit of work, but I think well worth it.  It’s nice to see those trails hitting once again!  I do have to give EDJ alot of credit with this.  They were not going to handcuff the client if they didn’t want to stay there. 

Good Luck and I hope it works for you like it did for me.
[/quote]

This sounds like the process we went through I was trying to describe earlier in the thread and it was successful. I too was surprised EJ signed off on it.

[quote=joedabrkr] [quote=Philo Kvetch]I just came across this table and thought it interesting.

Legal Actions Against Retail Brokerage Firms Between 2001 and 2002

Complaints per Million Retail Accounts*
------------------------------------------------
1.5        Fidelity Brokerage Services
2.6        Credit Suisse First Boston
4.8        Edward D. Jones & Co.
6.1        Charles Schwab
6.5        ***American Express Financial Advisors***
7.2        TD Waterhouse Investor Services
7.3        E*Trade Securities
8.4        Salomon Smith Barney
8.9        Quick & Reilly
9.8        UBS PaineWebber
10.6        Raymond James & Associates
11.5        A.G. Edwards
11.9        Ameritrade
12.1        Merrill Lynch
14.9        Wachovia Securities
20.2        Morgan Stanley
27.5        Prudential Securities
63.3        U.S. Bancorp Piper Jaffray

*Source data: http://www.financial-planning.com/pubs/fpi/
20030701102.html


Deduce from it what you will........[/quote]

LPL is not on the list at all....wonder why?
[/quote]

Maybe they couldn't find enough clients to satisfy their polling minimums.

Spiff,

    That's quite a shot from a Jone's guy who's always saying 'why can't you just leave Edward Jones alone.'  Not that the LPL guys din't have it coming, but let the war of words begin.

[quote=Spaceman Spiff]

[quote=joedabrkr] [quote=Philo Kvetch]I just came across this table and thought it interesting.

Legal Actions Against Retail Brokerage Firms Between 2001 and 2002

Complaints per Million Retail Accounts*
------------------------------------------------
1.5        Fidelity Brokerage Services
2.6        Credit Suisse First Boston
4.8        Edward D. Jones & Co.
6.1        Charles Schwab
6.5        ***American Express Financial Advisors***
7.2        TD Waterhouse Investor Services
7.3        E*Trade Securities
8.4        Salomon Smith Barney
8.9        Quick & Reilly
9.8        UBS PaineWebber
10.6        Raymond James & Associates
11.5        A.G. Edwards
11.9        Ameritrade
12.1        Merrill Lynch
14.9        Wachovia Securities
20.2        Morgan Stanley
27.5        Prudential Securities
63.3        U.S. Bancorp Piper Jaffray

*Source data: http://www.financial-planning.com/pubs/fpi/
20030701102.html


Deduce from it what you will........[/quote]

LPL is not on the list at all....wonder why?
[/quote]

Maybe they couldn't find enough clients to satisfy their polling minimums.

[/quote]

Or more likely it's that this list doesn't include any of the independent B/D's. 

[quote=FreeFromJones]

Spiff,

    That's quite a shot from a Jone's guy who's always saying 'why can't you just leave Edward Jones alone.'  Not that the LPL guys din't have it coming, but let the war of words begin.

I’ve been on my own for a few weeks now and have in transit 66 household accts.  I came in early this AM to look over the rest of my households I haven’t touched base with.  I rated them as potental client, dead money, small acct or little potential to benefit from my services. I realized what a crappy book I had.  Yes, we don’t need the $4100  IRA from a 61 year old school cook anymore.  She would be better served staying in the office and work with the new guy churning her from 1 mutual fund to another.  SHe will then notice how little she has made and move it to the local bank and buy a cd.  EDJ’s talks about the assets they keep, well in my case, it will be a majority I don’t care to have.  And to all you current Jonesers…I start off by telling my appts "Jones is a great firm, BUT…

bspears,

How's that shaved head workin' out for ya'?

[quote=doberman]

bspears,

How's that shaved head workin' out for ya'?

[quote=FreeFromJones]

Spiff,

    That's quite a shot from a Jone's guy who's always saying 'why can't you just leave Edward Jones alone.'  Not that the LPL guys din't have it coming, but let the war of words begin.

[/quote]

I guess you left your sense of humor at home today.  Just trying to have a little fun.