Jones Secrets Revealed

There are very few conflicts of interest--and none even close to hypocracy you experienced at Jones--that exist at a well run indy firm.

Just did a million dollar IRA ticket two weeks ago.  (Actually it was 960k)  Used 7 fund familes, 3-4 s/t bonds, a couple of preferreds, etc.  Difference is--I used a FEE BASED ACCOUNT.  It will take me a full year before I even earn the 1% the client is paying.  I know that my client has the flexibility to make changes and is not tied to an antiquated method of buying 2-3 families in A shares and paying 20-25k in upfront commissions. 

Welcome to the indy world--you will be MUCH HAPPIER here.

I am a much better financial advisor by working through Fee-Based because I’m not worried about how to miss breakpoints. 

Intentionally missing breakpoint sales???

Not at the firm in question as that is major no-no just ask Mr. Michelman ( I met him when he was articling and now he's a GP???)

Here's another Jones Secret Revealed: On a previous thread where a Jones Drone  quipped "What about Purcell paying his private secretary $1.9 mil a year for life..." How much did it cost that great and glorious

Long Time Managing Partner of the Most Ethical Firm on Wall Street to quietly divorce his wife of many years so he could marry his private secretary? Yep - look it up.... alot more than $1.9Mil

Mr. Michaelman doesn’t have a clue.  There are so many IR’s that are intentionally missing breakpoints (under the disguise of diversification)!  He is fool who has yet to believe that IR’s actually do this and they don’t have the systems in place to catch it.  Just before I left they were starting to put in place annuity systems that would catch breakpoints.  Now brokers are trying to sell annuities that are different than the mutual funds that people own just so they won’t hit breakpoints. 

Very well said.  Face it.  EDJ is limited in what they can do for clients.

Congrats.  Best Wishes to you.

Spiked- You are right. No one still at Jones will admit it, but it is done. I did my first Million Dollar client at NAV- What a kick in the gut to see $4000 pay out for that. Then my Mentor taught me how to play… and another bonus for ‘diversifying the client’ was the spread of points on the almight Div Trip contest, so not only did you get paid but you get sent to the Bahamas…Now when I have conversations with my clients, we really talk about their money- and I am not thinking of what I need to make this month.

Great subject…it just shows that the long term interest of the client and advisor seem to be better served in a fee-based arrangement.  It may cost more vs. buying holding the same funds (bought at best possible breakpoints) forever, but that model really doesn’t seem to exist, despite the claims of EJ.  While I’m not indy just yet, I have felt the difference in using fee-based accounts that zacko mentions…you get almost NO “pop” when you initiate the account or invest the $, so you are even MORE cognizant that you need to take care of this client for a long time.  I think I did a good job of that in a transaction based world, but human nature being what it is, you still had that “high” when the revnue hit on the initial investment. 

Spiked...you are right there on the annuity bkpts. When we left Metlife offered Lord Abbett and American Funds, Lord would allow funds held outside annuity to count for bkpt, but American Funds wouldn't allow. While SunAmerica offered bkpt for any of the preferred fund family.

But now we're indy and snoopy pays 6 milk bones to the client, and 7 WHOLE beeps to us. Talk about conflict...get someone from Jones insurance services to tell what commission REALLY is on annuities.

I tried to get a straight answer from the Insurance Services Dept and they put up the smoke and mirrors in regards to why the payout on a B-Share was 4.75%.  It was a long winded answer that actually made sense at the time.  In regards, to the Diversification Trips.  I made every one and I started new/new.  I built my office to $54 million in 7 years from scratch.  I did $540,000 gross when I left.  The whole time I was there I had IR's calling me asking, "I've got this client and I need to figure out a way to get paid."  I would tell them, just like my Mentor taught me, "Three fund families, some 3 pt bonds, and 5 to 7 stocks."  I'll bet you that if Jones went down the list of their top clients who aren't in the MAP program they would find that they have multiple fund families and 3 pt bonds and 5 to 7 stocks.    It's amazing, now I get a $1,000,000 client come in the door and I just say it's 1% for everything there is no discussion or anything.  I'm so glad I went Indy. 

One more thing,  Jones' field supervision has no backbone to stand up to this kind of foul play that is going on.  They pay their FS so little that their is no incentive for them to stay.  They just sign off on trades and move on to the next one.

We had this discussion many times on the ol payout argument.  Jonsers say when I add everything in, I am at 56% or whatever to your 65% indy.

And those of us who saw the light always would say 56% of what.  That's right ed jones double dips on annuity biz and insurance biz; a lot of wirehouse firms do this too.  It's nice to know I get 90% of what the vendor pays the b/d and sometimes I even get 100% on insurance business. 

I just now met with an indy recruiting rep.  Her biggest area for recruiting is Jones.  She said, at least in her multistate area, Jones is bleeding good reps badly.  They'er seeing the light over there!

Anyone who really cares about what is in the clients best interest who handles even moderately wealthy money knows it is time to leave!

As far as me, "Wirehouse," I am beginning my due diligence!  My contract is over and this will be the last move of my career.

Malcolm...I know the month we left in our region alone 3 Sr Vets with AUM ranging from $45 mill - $120 mill, and took their BOAs with.

CSMelnix... we didn't know about the "double dipping" until our Metlife wholesaler let it slip how much was really paid. Had a client who had Met bonus product and wanted to put more in. Call Met, they say you get 7, call Jones they say "Who told you that, it's 5 you get paid 5".

[quote=munytalks]Spiked- You are right. No one still at Jones will admit it, but it is done. I did my first Million Dollar client at NAV- What a kick in the gut to see $4000 pay out for that. Then my Mentor taught me how to play... .[/quote]

Are you honestly suggesting that a million dollar account should all be placed in one fund family?

[/quote]and another bonus for 'diversifying the client' was the spread of points on the almight Div Trip contest, so not only did you get paid but you get sent to the Bahamas[/quote]

Sorry, but this statement is just plain false.  The Diversification Trip categories are based on investment type (e.g. Growth, G&I, Taxable and Non-Taxable Income, etc.).  You could put everything in one fund family and still make the trip.

You remind a lot of "The Truth."  Come to think of it, we haven't seen him in awhile. 

No I'm not suggesting putting $1,000,000 with one family, but this is Jones' argument for not using WRAP and Fee-Based Programs.  They say that paying the upfront commish is in the best interest of the client, and I'm saying that Jones Top Producers are realizing that they can get away with 3 fund families. 

I almost forgot, I was in the top 10 at Jones for Unit Investment Trusts because their was no breakpoints.  So you could put $500,000k into several UIT's (fixed) and get paid 4 to 4.5.  An example of what I was taught at Jones is if someone comes in with $100,000.  Put $85,000 into Funds and buy a $15,000 UIT and that way you don't hit the 100k bkpt. 

As for the truth Newbie, the truth is a lot of people that need to earn a category would put money into a fixed income investment (to earn the Div Points) then DCA out of the fixed income investment into the proper portfolio just to win the trip. 

I will expose more of Jones secrets in future posts!

There are breakpoints with UIT’s. Thanks for playing.

Not Secondary Fixed income UIT’s Noggin  Pull your head out! On your antiquated technology it’s  Inv,Mut,st=CA!  No breakpoints.  $500,000 tax free at 4.5.  22,000 gross commission.  Versus 1.25 % on a fee based account.  It would take 5 years to get to that point.

I find it amazing that there are no EDJ reps in this forum suggesting that I'm saying something that is not true.  In regions all over the country people are teaching IR's how to, "get paid." 

Here's another one.  If you have $250,000 to invest you can justify to the Field Supervisor to buy two separate a-share annuities at $85,000 each.  Then you put the other $80,000 in a fund family that is not represented in the VA's.  Basically you tell the Field Supervisor that you are using the living benefit with Hartford or American and then you use Protective (because they are the low cost provider) for tax deffered growth.  The field supervisor just likes the fact that you are using the a-share.

Many secrets soon to be revealed....stay tuned!

spikedkoolaid,

     Congratulations! I'm glad you made the change.  Sounds like you'll be happier.  But which is it, 7 or 8 years at Jones?  540k gross off 54 million?  That's a 100bp turn on your book.  Wow! You must have been a churning machine. Independent will be a much better fit.

    Now you can turn even higher ratios on your book.  Indexed annuities at 12%, variable annuities as high as 8%, wrap accounts at 1.5%, managed money at 2.5%, junk bonds at 5%.  I'm sure you'll do the right thing for the you...er, I mean the client......or maybe that's why you're independent now.

    Too many FSPENDS, no wonder you left.  You have done some of the most unethical sales practices I can imaging on unsuspecting people, I'm guessing when you change firms and have even more free reign you will stop?  No, probably not.  I'm sorry your region had some unethical brokers, just make sure you take them with you when you move the LPL. 

    Let me know how those indexed annuities work out for your clients

I have been watching and having a good time. Glad to see an insider admit

that the ethics of this firm are something to laugh about.

Spiked has made some very interesting comments. Let’s hear some more.   I

noticed Hartford contributed more towards revenue sharing last year. I

would like for Spiked to comment on anyone that he knows that moved their

entire book of business over to Hartford.

[quote=spikedkoolaid]

I find it amazing that there are no EDJ reps in this forum suggesting that I'm saying something that is not true. 

[/quote]

Um, I just called you a liar, don't you remember?  It's right up there.

All you have done is admit that you have no ethics and allege that everyone else at Jones must be the same way. 

[quote=The Truth] I
would like for Spiked to comment on anyone that he knows that moved their
entire book of business over to Hartford. [/quote]

Why wait for spiked to make it up, just say you know of someone who did.  Kind of like that conversation you had with the imaginary client about the free switch (months before the letter actually went out, though.)

[quote=spikedkoolaid]

I find it amazing that there are no EDJ reps in this forum suggesting that I’m saying something that is not true.  In regions all over the country people are teaching IR’s how to, “get paid.” 

Here's another one.  If you have $250,000 to invest you can justify to the Field Supervisor to buy two separate a-share annuities at $85,000 each.  Then you put the other $80,000 in a fund family that is not represented in the VA's.  Basically you tell the Field Supervisor that you are using the living benefit with Hartford or American and then you use Protective (because they are the low cost provider) for tax deffered growth.  The field supervisor just likes the fact that you are using the a-share.

Many secrets soon to be revealed....stay tuned!

Yup. This is true. For instance if your sub accounts are in American Funds, they count toward other American Fund breakpoint purchases

JonesNewbie,

Please remember the point I am trying to make.  I'm not suggesting that every Jones IR does what I did.  What I'm suggesting is the Top Producers are doing it.  Jones rewards mediocrity.  The Top Producers have figured out in order to, "get paid" they have to be a little creative.  I'm not even suggesting that I hurt my clients by doing this.  What I'm saying is it's common practice to skirt around breakpoints so you can receive a higher payout.  Now that I'm at an Indy firm I don't have to worry about the payout because I'm getting a 90% split. 

Let's do the math:

$100,000 Mutual Fund Trade

3500 to the concession, times 40% is $1200.

If you do $85,000 at 4.5 you get $1530 plus

$15,000 into a Municipal Unit Trust 4.5 you get $225.  Total $1755.

At an Indy firm I make $3500 commission - 10% to the firm. $3150 to me.  I don't have to play these games.  I'm always doing what's right for the client.  It's easier to do what's right for the client when you are earning a 90% payout.

If you work the numbers as they get bigger the spreads get bigger.  Believe me fellas/ladies, this is a learned skilled not taught at Jones but learned at Div Trips over a couple of beers or through your mentor when they wink at you.

I just thought of another one we used to do.  Lord Abbett Bond Debenture (lbndx) fund pays 4% dealer concession up to $100,000.  So let’s say you had a $175,000 rollover and the client needed some income, you would put $85,000k in LBNDX and then put the other $90,000 in another fund family.  This way you didn’t have to hit the 100k bkpt.  You could explain it to your field supervisor that the Lord Abbett folks have this great(not so) bond fund and I want to use them for income and then the other fund family I would use for growth of the portfolio.  There will be more to come as I think about them…

As for people changing their whole book to Hartford.  I do remember that when Hartford first hit the Jones system, guys were getting paid 2% up front in C-Shares with a 1% trail.  They made Hartford cut this program out because “so much money was flowing to Hartford in C-Shares Jones didn’t like it.” I heard that comment straight from Uncle Tom Miltenberger while we were waiting for a plane on our way back from Tahiti. They want people to use A-Shares.  I also remember Top Producers using Hartford strictly because it helped their P and L.  I think the new way Jones credits their Revenue Sharing, IR’s will be less likely to sell a fund family because it doesn’t matter in regards to helping their P&L.

[quote=rankstocks]

spikedkoolaid,

     Congratulations! I'm glad you made the change.  Sounds like you'll be happier.  But which is it, 7 or 8 years at Jones?  540k gross off 54 million?  That's a 100bp turn on your book.  Wow! You must have been a churning machine. Independent will be a much better fit.

    Now you can turn even higher ratios on your book.  Indexed annuities at 12%, variable annuities as high as 8%, wrap accounts at 1.5%, managed money at 2.5%, junk bonds at 5%.  I'm sure you'll do the right thing for the you...er, I mean the client......or maybe that's why you're independent now.

    Too many FSPENDS, no wonder you left.  You have done some of the most unethical sales practices I can imaging on unsuspecting people, I'm guessing when you change firms and have even more free reign you will stop?  No, probably not.  I'm sorry your region had some unethical brokers, just make sure you take them with you when you move the LPL. 

    Let me know how those indexed annuities work out for your clients

[/quote]

Let me respond RankStocks!  During my audits, my auditer used to ask me the same thing about $54,000,000 and $540,000 Gross.  I have told you that I was in the top 10 in the firm in fixed income UIT's.  That's 4 to 4.5% no breakpoints.  I was in the top 10 in the company at selling Long Term Care Insurance.  I was on conference calls teaching others how to sell LTC.  I was also in the top 30 for the Managed Account Program.  So my book was well diversified and my annuity business was only 2% of my entire book when I left.  I think you are so upset at me because I am exposing some small ethical things that are taught by Jones Top Producers. 

I have a suggestion, next time you are at a Div trip or at a Regional Meeting, Ask a Top Producer in your region this question, "If a $1,000,000 rollover came in to the office how would you place the money."  I will wait for your answer this summer after the regional meetings. 

[quote=spikedkoolaid]

At an Indy firm I make $3500 commission - 10% to the firm. $3150 to me.  I don't have to play these games.  I'm always doing what's right for the client.  It's easier to do what's right for the client when you are earning a 90% payout.

[/quote]

How is this unique to Jones?  Every B/D takes there cut.  Are you trying to say that only the indies have ethics?

It will depend on that cut, though.  Some charge more, some charge less.  Jones has historically been fairly consistent (from my understanding) with wirehouses.  They are behind the 8-ball when it comes to regionals and independents, especially. 

You Jones people haven't heard the point I am trying to make.  Maybe I'm not a very good writer.  What I am trying to say is the fee based program allows an advisor to not have to skate around breakpoints in order to make money.  The reason it is unique to Jones is because there are IR's out there that know how to work the system/FieldSupervision/Jeremy Michaelman so that they don't have to hit breakpoints in order to make more commissions because they don't have a fee based program that is available to the IR's. 

I'll bet that if Jones offered a fee based program other than MAP, they would not have productive IR's leaving.  It sounds like you are new to Jones.  Jones is a great place to start, but once you start building your business you will see the light and stop drinking the koolaid. 

[quote=joedabrkr] [quote=spikedkoolaid]

I find it amazing that there are no EDJ reps in this forum suggesting that I'm saying something that is not true.  In regions all over the country people are teaching IR's how to, "get paid." 

Here's another one.  If you have $250,000 to invest you can justify to the Field Supervisor to buy two separate a-share annuities at $85,000 each.  Then you put the other $80,000 in a fund family that is not represented in the VA's.  Basically you tell the Field Supervisor that you are using the living benefit with Hartford or American and then you use Protective (because they are the low cost provider) for tax deffered growth.  The field supervisor just likes the fact that you are using the a-share.

Many secrets soon to be revealed....stay tuned!

[/quote]

I've seen several references to the fact that apparently at Jones VA subaccounts are counted as assets towards breakpoints with mutual funds purchases.  Maybe I've just missed something, but over 14 years with three wirehouses, and now indy, I've never seen anything like this.

Is this a practice that is unique to Jones?  A new development in the industry that I just plain missed?  Please fill me in here folks!
[/quote]

Joe - It's my understanding it's because Jones offers the 'A' Share annuity. Something my rep sold alot of. I doubt if this is industry wide, just Jones specific. However, different insurance companies allow specific funds to count towards breakpoint on the A share annuity and vice versa. I know Lord Abbett was very liberal in allowing funds inside annuities to count towards breakpoint (or at least they were in our case 90% of the time) American Funds? not so much.

[quote=rankstocks]

spikedkoolaid,

     Congratulations! I'm glad you made the change.  Sounds like you'll be happier.  But which is it, 7 or 8 years at Jones?  540k gross off 54 million?  That's a 100bp turn on your book.  Wow! You must have been a churning machine. Independent will be a much better fit.

    Now you can turn even higher ratios on your book.  Indexed annuities at 12%, variable annuities as high as 8%, wrap accounts at 1.5%, managed money at 2.5%, junk bonds at 5%.  I'm sure you'll do the right thing for the you...er, I mean the client......or maybe that's why you're independent now.

    Too many FSPENDS, no wonder you left.  You have done some of the most unethical sales practices I can imaging on unsuspecting people, I'm guessing when you change firms and have even more free reign you will stop?  No, probably not.  I'm sorry your region had some unethical brokers, just make sure you take them with you when you move the LPL. 

    Let me know how those indexed annuities work out for your clients

[/quote]

Rank,

I object to the absolute piety of your statements. Challenging one person's ethics is one thing, however you are insinuating that everyone who doesn't work for Jones has poor ethics and is commission driven. (coincidental considering Jones only offers the MAP program and all other investments offered are on commission basis only)

If anything, as an independent one is more cautious in what one does knowing if any issue should arrise he/she has to stand on her own feet and defend his/her actions. Being independent does not mean running wild in the streets - there are rules to adhere to just like you have at Jones. Working as independent Spiked either has obtained a 24 to supervise himself, or works closely under an OSJ with a 24.

Your implication that only Edward Jones IR's have their clients best interests at heart is a true example of the arrogance that lingers at Jones, and is what's causing Senior Vets to leave in droves.

[quote=Devoted SA][quote=rankstocks]

spikedkoolaid,

     Congratulations! I'm glad you made the change.  Sounds like you'll be happier.  But which is it, 7 or 8 years at Jones?  540k gross off 54 million?  That's a 100bp turn on your book.  Wow! You must have been a churning machine. Independent will be a much better fit.

    Now you can turn even higher ratios on your book.  Indexed annuities at 12%, variable annuities as high as 8%, wrap accounts at 1.5%, managed money at 2.5%, junk bonds at 5%.  I'm sure you'll do the right thing for the you...er, I mean the client......or maybe that's why you're independent now.

    Too many FSPENDS, no wonder you left.  You have done some of the most unethical sales practices I can imaging on unsuspecting people, I'm guessing when you change firms and have even more free reign you will stop?  No, probably not.  I'm sorry your region had some unethical brokers, just make sure you take them with you when you move the LPL. 

    Let me know how those indexed annuities work out for your clients

[/quote]

Rank,

I object to the absolute piety of your statements. Challenging one person's ethics is one thing, however you are insinuating that everyone who doesn't work for Jones has poor ethics and is commission driven. (coincidental considering Jones only offers the MAP program and all other investments offered are on commission basis only)

If anything, as an independent one is more cautious in what one does knowing if any issue should arrise he/she has to stand on her own feet and defend his/her actions. Being independent does not mean running wild in the streets - there are rules to adhere to just like you have at Jones. Working as independent Spiked either has obtained a 24 to supervise himself, or works closely under an OSJ with a 24.

Your implication that only Edward Jones IR's have their clients best interests at heart is a true example of the arrogance that lingers at Jones, and is what's causing Senior Vets to leave in droves.

[/quote]

Looks to me like Rank was attacking Spiked and wasn't insuating anything else.  Mostly based on what he has written here.  Seems like your a little touchy on this one.

correction insinuating

How is this unique to Jones?  Every B/D takes there cut.  Are you trying to say that only the indies have ethics?

Of course they do, otherwise we would have no back office support, research etc.  The difference is that as an independent receiving 90% of the commission AND not having a monkey on our back (St Louis and GPs) to produce an arbitrary amount each day, the independent can be more able to consider the client first.  The revenue will follow.  This isn't to say that all independents are ethical and don't consider their own pocket first or that reps at EDJ are not ethical.  It is that in the system of commission targets or you are canned versus fee based or independent with a higher pay out, one tends to reward the rep for churning and structuring the trades to get more revenue not in the best interest of the client.

As an independent, obviously I need to make money or I can't eat.  The fact that in my first year out from Jones I more than doubled my NET with less activity in my clients accounts is telling. 

You Jones people haven't heard the point I am trying to make.  Maybe I'm not a very good writer.  What I am trying to say is the fee based program allows an advisor to not have to skate around breakpoints in order to make money. 

You are writing very clearly. The Jones people have severe reading comprehension problems.  Probably from wearing those blinders.

Joe - It's my understanding it's because Jones offers the 'A' Share annuity. Something my rep sold alot of. I doubt if this is industry wide, just Jones specific. However, different insurance companies allow specific funds to count towards breakpoint on the A share annuity and vice versa. I know Lord Abbett was very liberal in allowing funds inside annuities to count towards breakpoint (or at least they were in our case 90% of the time) American Funds? not so much.

[/quote]

What has happened w/ your A share annuities since going Indy? Can you add more client money? Any client issues w/ these? I presume you can not still offer them?

CIB

I forgot to mention on my last post that before I left I didn't receive an FSPEND (for none jonesies that's a term used by Jones that requires the broker to give an explanation of a trade that was made) for 6 months.  Because I had over $12,000,000 in the Managed Account Program I never received an FSPEND.  BTW when the whole Revenue Sharing thing was on the front page of the WSJ and the LaTimes I could go to my best clients who were in the Seperately Managed Accounts and say their was no conflict of interest.  It was tough trying to explain to my mutual fund clients why I had used only preferred vendors.  I'm so glad I used the MAP (fee-based program) at Jones while I was there because of the $12,000,000 I had at Jones $10,000,000 has transferred in 9 weeks.  The other $2,000,000 will be coming in the next two weeks.  100% of the MAP clients are coming with me.  I'm so Happy!

Max, I based my comments on his remark about "having more free reign" and "sorry your region had some unethical brokers just take them with you when you move to LPL" and "hope your clients like those EIA's." That's some pretty deep sarcasm and I guess I did kind of take it personally. (not because we run an unethical practice or sell EIA'sbut because we DO work @ LPL and we DID leave Jones)

Jones bills themselves as "the most ethical firm on Wall Street" right? I think alot of that thinking extends down to the IR's..."If I work for the most ethical firm on Wall Street, I must be the most ethical guy around." I dunno, maybe I took it too literal.

[quote=CIBforeveryone]

Joe - It's my understanding it's because Jones offers the 'A' Share annuity. Something my rep sold alot of. I doubt if this is industry wide, just Jones specific. However, different insurance companies allow specific funds to count towards breakpoint on the A share annuity and vice versa. I know Lord Abbett was very liberal in allowing funds inside annuities to count towards breakpoint (or at least they were in our case 90% of the time) American Funds? not so much.

[/quote]

What has happened w/ your A share annuities since going Indy? Can you add more client money? Any client issues w/ these? I presume you can not still offer them?

CIB

[/quote]

We can hold them, be b/d. Clts can add to them if they want, but most clients choose the XC bonus product Snoopy offers. (b/c Snoopy pays 6 milk bones to Mr. Client ) While at Jones we always heard only Jones offers A share, but now know that's not true. We can sell A share on the outside, but also know that other products can be beneficial to client. Like L share 4 yr surrender, internal expenses same as A share, less upfront cost to client.

Forgot to mention payout on XC is same as A share, just in case anyone is wondering.

My B/D doesn’t allow additions to the A share annuities ( I sold a lot of Hartford Leaders Edge)  but we can still hold them as the agent and service the account.

BTW: Hartford has a pretty nice 4 yr surrender VA.

I can hold the A-Share Product and add to it! 

I wish I could  :-(  I asked why and they didn’t have a very good answer just that they were not contracted with Hartford for that particular product.  They said it was a Jones proprietary VA.

I was grossing about 700k from 68 million back in 2001.  We brought in quite a bit of new money, but the market kept declining so our asset base grew only a few million that year. 

Funny now that I'm indy I do about 750k off of 110 million.  So that disproves Ranks theory on indies.  Ranks knows about as much about the investment business as a 4th year Jones broker...WAIT!!!  he is a 4th year Jones broker! LOL.

Now at 50% of my revenue from fee based/C share & annuity trails.  Can you imagine how much in A shares I would have had to accumulate at Jones to get to 350 gross?  close to 150 million in A shares alone!!!! 

[quote=Devoted SA][quote=CIBforeveryone]

Joe - It's my understanding it's because Jones offers the 'A' Share annuity. Something my rep sold alot of. I doubt if this is industry wide, just Jones specific. However, different insurance companies allow specific funds to count towards breakpoint on the A share annuity and vice versa. I know Lord Abbett was very liberal in allowing funds inside annuities to count towards breakpoint (or at least they were in our case 90% of the time) American Funds? not so much.

[/quote]

What has happened w/ your A share annuities since going Indy? Can you add more client money? Any client issues w/ these? I presume you can not still offer them?

CIB

[/quote]

We can hold them, be b/d. Clts can add to them if they want, but most clients choose the XC bonus product Snoopy offers. (b/c Snoopy pays 6 milk bones to Mr. Client ) While at Jones we always heard only Jones offers A share, but now know that's not true. We can sell A share on the outside, but also know that other products can be beneficial to client. Like L share 4 yr surrender, internal expenses same as A share, less upfront cost to client.

[/quote]

Nicole,

The L share has considerably more expenses than the A share. I would think that you know better than that. The L share has a 4 yr surrender the A share is totally liquid for a client 59 1/2 or older. The L share does have a lower upfront cost, however.

I left Jones earlier in the spring and my own experience is one of a client that transferred their account to my office.  Lets just say 150,000 between Federated, Am Fds, & Hartford.

I don't think this just comes from IRs in the feild.  I went to two training programs after advancing to a new segment, and through the programs, the trainers actually gave us hints as to make more for yourself (the firm).  With 30 yr bond rates being low, Jones wasn't making as much on them as they were in the touchdown days (7 pts on a bond).  The trainer guided us towards UITs where we could get paid 3.5-4 pts rather than 1.75 to 2 pts on the structured notes.

Moving to indy has been the best thing to happen to me and my family.  I work under an OSJ so my production requirements are making sure my daughter can eat and my wife can buy shoes.  Even though Jones says it is impossible, I make more doing less, my accountant says that AMT won't be an issue, I have control over my business expenses, it really isn't that difficult to cut a check to my assistant (who came with me and ol Jimmy boy replied to a rep that it is much easier to let Jones handle that for you), and there is no such thing as a segment or needing to make 25 real contacts per day or opening 10 accts per month.  My mentor at Jones always told me that his goal was to still make 30 sales calls per day and open 10 accts per month after 12 yrs in the business.  I can only imagine that the clients who trusted him were getting his undivided attention with their best interest at heart, after all he now needs to make Seg 5 (Jones won't carry him forever you know). 

Everything that Spike koolaid wrote can happen at any firm including Jones. I call people like him a crook no matter which firm the work for. He will make more money in the fee based platforms than in missing 100k breakpoints over time…much more. That is why he made the move. Someone that constantly looks to screw his clients into paying gobs more money never makes career choices based on what will be better for his clients. I find more screwballs are independent that at wire houses and banks because they can really get paid.

[quote=peanutbroker]Everything that Spike koolaid wrote can happen at any firm including Jones. I call people like him a crook no matter which firm the work for. He will make more money in the fee based platforms than in missing 100k breakpoints over time...much more. That is why he made the move. Someone that constantly looks to screw his clients into paying gobs more money never makes career choices based on what will be better for his clients. I find more screwballs are independent that at wire houses and banks because they can really get paid.[/quote]

I'm sorry Peanut that you think I'm a crook.  I wouldn't classify myself as a crook.  I didn't put my clients in Indexed Annuities/Limited Partnerships/etc.  I worked the Jones system.  I put my clients in good solid Mutual Funds and UIT's.  I also had them buy bonds and a couple of stocks.  What I'm trying to reveal is that Jones does not have systems in place to manage their "ethical firm on Wall Street" claim.  There are flaws in their supervision and I am trying to expose them.  Jones wants to be an A++ firm but I would give them a C on really cracking down on the top producers way of making a living.  

I got to a point at Jones that I realized I couldn't work any harder or get paid anymore.  I was kind of stuck in a rut.  Going Indy presented new challenges and new opportunities.  I'm so happy! 

Peanut-



I don’t believe you have ever worked at Jones. What Spike is preaching is the

truth. Follow the line or you will be derailed at this company. The GP status

is the nugget that is dangled in front of you. Everyone hopes by playing by

"the rules" that they will get a piece of this nugget. Nice info Spiked, again!

Here's another one...

About 3 or 4 years ago Jones came up with this Aggregration Rule.  It basically states that if you put more than $100,000 into individual bonds in 30 days you would have to discount the commission on anything over $100,000.  The way IR's got around this was two fold.

First, you could put it into three different CMO's, Muni's, and UIT's and avoid the aggregration rule.  Second, You could also buy a bond fund (LBNDX-preferred revenue sharing) and then the bonds.  

I remember getting calls from newer Edward Jones Reps and them being so upset.  They had just sold their client on putting $250,000 into a laddered portfolio of bonds and they thought they were going to get paid X and then they ended up seeing their commission was cut in half.  They would then ask me how do you get around this aggregation rule.  I would teach them just like my mentor taught me. 

The koolaid has been spiked for a long time...more to come! 

[quote=noggin][quote=Devoted SA][quote=CIBforeveryone]

Joe - It's my understanding it's because Jones offers the 'A' Share annuity. Something my rep sold alot of. I doubt if this is industry wide, just Jones specific. However, different insurance companies allow specific funds to count towards breakpoint on the A share annuity and vice versa. I know Lord Abbett was very liberal in allowing funds inside annuities to count towards breakpoint (or at least they were in our case 90% of the time) American Funds? not so much.

[/quote]

What has happened w/ your A share annuities since going Indy? Can you add more client money? Any client issues w/ these? I presume you can not still offer them?

CIB

[/quote]

We can hold them, be b/d. Clts can add to them if they want, but most clients choose the XC bonus product Snoopy offers. (b/c Snoopy pays 6 milk bones to Mr. Client ) While at Jones we always heard only Jones offers A share, but now know that's not true. We can sell A share on the outside, but also know that other products can be beneficial to client. Like L share 4 yr surrender, internal expenses same as A share, less upfront cost to client.

[/quote]

Nicole,

The L share has considerably more expenses than the A share. I would think that you know better than that. The L share has a 4 yr surrender the A share is totally liquid for a client 59 1/2 or older. The L share does have a lower upfront cost, however.

Bahh pushed wrong button.

Noggin - You're right..I wasn't paying attention to what I was looking at.

WOW- I took a couple days off and look at all this noise.

For all you Brokers out there who have never worked for Jones- what you are missing here that is going on between Current and Ex-Jonesers is this: When you are hired at Jones you take a vow of poverty. Every morning when a Jones IR comes into their office they are to face St. Louis and bow reciting the Five Critical Activities of a New IR.  They eat a strict and regimented diet of sliced fresh fruit, stale muffins and coffee. The gladly volunteer their time to recruit, train and mentor other converts to the Jones Faith. Just before graduating to go out on their own-which literally means door knocking- they must be able to correctly sell a Mutual Fund using a Cake Mix box and sell stock using a brick. When Brokers fail the test of Poverty -they are called Unethical. When they leave Jones - they become infidels. And when they speak the truth- they become Morons.  If a Broker can somehow manage to navigate this system of Judgmentalism , walk the halls of St. Louis viewing all the portraits of the St. Jones brokers before them and sell his soul for the firm- he becomes a ...... General Partner

[quote=Devoted SA][quote=CIBforeveryone]

Joe - It's my understanding it's because Jones offers the 'A' Share annuity. Something my rep sold alot of. I doubt if this is industry wide, just Jones specific. However, different insurance companies allow specific funds to count towards breakpoint on the A share annuity and vice versa. I know Lord Abbett was very liberal in allowing funds inside annuities to count towards breakpoint (or at least they were in our case 90% of the time) American Funds? not so much.

[/quote]

What has happened w/ your A share annuities since going Indy? Can you add more client money? Any client issues w/ these? I presume you can not still offer them?

CIB

[/quote]

We can hold them, be b/d. Clts can add to them if they want, but most clients choose the XC bonus product Snoopy offers. (b/c Snoopy pays 6 milk bones to Mr. Client ) While at Jones we always heard only Jones offers A share, but now know that's not true. We can sell A share on the outside, but also know that other products can be beneficial to client. Like L share 4 yr surrender, internal expenses same as A share, less upfront cost to client.

Joe- What’s a Sur-ren-dur?

One of my favorites things that Jones did before I left was in the Fall of 2005.  They ran a contest and the main prize was a picture of Doug Hill with one of his "sayings" on it.  Just what I want in my office - a picture of 3mil Hill!  After winning all the other contests up to that, I was actually glad not to win that one!

[quote=munytalks]

WOW- I took a couple days off and look at all this noise.

For all you Brokers out there who have never worked for Jones- what you are missing here that is going on between Current and Ex-Jonesers is this: When you are hired at Jones you take a vow of poverty. Every morning when a Jones IR comes into their office they are to face St. Louis and bow reciting the Five Critical Activities of a New IR.  They eat a strict and regimented diet of sliced fresh fruit, stale muffins and coffee. The gladly volunteer their time to recruit, train and mentor other converts to the Jones Faith. Just before graduating to go out on their own-which literally means door knocking- they must be able to correctly sell a Mutual Fund using a Cake Mix box and sell stock using a brick. When Brokers fail the test of Poverty -they are called Unethical. When they leave Jones - they become infidels. And when they speak the truth- they become Morons.  If a Broker can somehow manage to navigate this system of Judgmentalism , walk the halls of St. Louis viewing all the portraits of the St. Jones brokers before them and sell his soul for the firm- he becomes a ...... General Partner

One of my favorites things that Jones did before I left was in the Fall of 2005.  They ran a contest and the main prize was a picture of Doug Hill with one of his "sayings" on it. 

What was second place's prize? Two pictures of Doug?

I actually won that picture of Doug “3mil” Hill and I would never have put that up in my office.  It could possibly go down as the worst photograph I have ever seen of an executive.  My former BOA and I couldn’t believe that this was given out as a prize.

I hope you kept the frame- I kept all of mine- pop the St. Jones pictures out and they can be recycled quite nicely. Best Prize we ever got were those smoked turkeys. Looked forward to those every year,- at least I knew since I had taken a vow of Poverty to work at Jones, my family had Thanksgiving dinner provided.

You have to be kidding Spike! The WORST prize ever was that colored pencil drawing of John Bachmann! He looked like Toad from American Graffitti. That one NEVER made it on the wall.

Muny...lol we did the same thing with our frames too - but I want to know does everyone have their "crystal ball" still?

I always enjoyed the recruiting contests.  First there was "Recruit for a Suit".  If you gave the name of a recruit your name went into a hat and one lucky winner received a business suit (value not likely to exceed $200).  Once the GP's realized that it was too expensive to run such a contest in each region it quickly became "Recruit for a fruit".  That's right folks...get a recruit hired and you are given a friggin fruit basket.  I am not making this stuff up! 

Muny…lol we did the same thing with our frames too - but I want to know does everyone have their “crystal ball” still?

Me too.  They were nice frames.   Don't have a crystal ball on my desk but I do have a "Magic 8 Ball".  I use it when clients ask me what the market etc is going to do. 

Me:  Hmmmm, let me get my analytical tool and see what the market is going to be like. 

They get a big laugh out of that.

Gone Indy:

Once the GP's realized that it was too expensive to run such a contest in each region it quickly became "Recruit for a fruit". 

------------------------------

I'm sure that went over real well in San Francisco!

Devoted SA,

    I've seen two Jones brokers that were below standard move to LPL the last few years.  One is still working from home, yes, over three years from his house.  Wonder if LPL would let him move in with his parents to save even more? That's why the average gross production at LPL is less than 150k.....yes, that is truly a joke.

    The last person I know that went to LPL was at Jones 7 years ago, then moved to Paine (now UBS) then Bank of America and finally a step down to LPL.  over 10 years in the business and less than 25 million in assets.  I can't make this stuff up.

   No wonder there are questionable sales practices on indexed annuities, fixed annuities, VUL's, LIRPS, etc.  Is it the appropriateness of the product or is it trying to find the highest yield to broker?

    There are good advisors everywhere, but anyone that brags about their payouts over and over is grossing less than 200k, doesn't have an assistant, goes to the local free health care office, and sits on the site all day trying to sound superior.  By the way, hit the gym, because as sensitive as your are, I can tell you are either morbidly obese or olive oil skinny.

[quote=rankstocks]

Devoted SA,

    I've seen two Jones brokers that were below standard move to LPL the last few years.  One is still working from home, yes, over three years from his house.  Wonder if LPL would let him move in with his parents to save even more? That's why the average gross production at LPL is less than 150k.....yes, that is truly a joke.

    The last person I know that went to LPL was at Jones 7 years ago, then moved to Paine (now UBS) then Bank of America and finally a step down to LPL.  over 10 years in the business and less than 25 million in assets.  I can't make this stuff up.

   No wonder there are questionable sales practices on indexed annuities, fixed annuities, VUL's, LIRPS, etc.  Is it the appropriateness of the product or is it trying to find the highest yield to broker?

    There are good advisors everywhere, but anyone that brags about their payouts over and over is grossing less than 200k, doesn't have an assistant, goes to the local free health care office, and sits on the site all day trying to sound superior.  By the way, hit the gym, because as sensitive as your are, I can tell you are either morbidly obese or olive oil skinny.

First: There are questionable sales practices on Indexed Annuities because you don't have to have a license to sell them and until recently you could sell them from your home in your underwear and not run them through a b/d. (my FAVORITE ad in California Insurance Commissioner newsletter shows guy lounging in boxer shorts on the phone and ad boasts..."Give yourself a raise")

Second: In the 7+ years I have worked with my rep I can can count on ONE hand (that would be five fingers) the number of times we've used FA's, ILIT's, Life Insurance Policies.

Third: Your retort about my needing to hit the gym? Best comeback I've EVER seen since the third grade, was so precise and totally relevant! FTR, I'm in fine shape and could probably teach you a few things about the "gym".

Rank: It’s Olive Oyl, not Olive Oil. Now go back to filling out your WCOM claim forms.

[quote=munytalks]

WOW- I took a couple days off and look at all this noise.

For all you Brokers out there who have never worked for Jones- what you are missing here that is going on between Current and Ex-Jonesers is this: When you are hired at Jones you take a vow of poverty. Every morning when a Jones IR comes into their office they are to face St. Louis and bow reciting the Five Critical Activities of a New IR.  They eat a strict and regimented diet of sliced fresh fruit, stale muffins and coffee. The gladly volunteer their time to recruit, train and mentor other converts to the Jones Faith. Just before graduating to go out on their own-which literally means door knocking- they must be able to correctly sell a Mutual Fund using a Cake Mix box and sell stock using a brick. When Brokers fail the test of Poverty -they are called Unethical. When they leave Jones - they become infidels. And when they speak the truth- they become Morons.  If a Broker can somehow manage to navigate this system of Judgmentalism , walk the halls of St. Louis viewing all the portraits of the St. Jones brokers before them and sell his soul for the firm- he becomes a ...... General Partner

[/quote]

Muny,

What's the difference between a large pepperoni pizza and a new Jones broker?...

The large pepperoni pizza can feed a family of four.     

What about the larger producing EDJ reps that move to LPL, RJ, SB, etc.?  Every firm has their "rejects" that bounce around to avoid being let go or are simply job-hopping.  Each firm also has their great recruits who move from a platform that they and their clients have outgrown and spend the rest of their career at firm #2. 

BrokerRecruit, what are the stats on a broker moving only once in their career? My experience is that those that make a move are highly likely to do it again. Unfortunately, I do not always feel it is for the “right platform for their clients” but what is in the brokers best interest. I have seen a few of my friends make a move in the last 10 years (all grossing over 500k), many times (ok most) for money, and the majority of them have moved again and one came back. Are there any stats out there on this? 

Not that I've looked for.  As I go through our database and update miscellaneous dates from the NASD, I've seen at least half that have moved once and not again.  Many reps saw how difficult it would be and didn't want to go through it again.

Others took a great deal of time to research where they wanted to go, what the pain was at the current BD, how it would be remedied at the others and is the pain of staying greater than the pain it is to make a move. 

I'm sure stats are out there, but I try to not worry about that as much as I try to look at each situation differently and specific to that rep and their clients as opposed to an "everyone else is doing it" approach.

[quote=peanutbroker]Everything that Spike koolaid wrote can happen at any firm including Jones. I call people like him a crook no matter which firm the work for. He will make more money in the fee based platforms than in missing 100k breakpoints over time...much more. That is why he made the move. Someone that constantly looks to screw his clients into paying gobs more money never makes career choices based on what will be better for his clients. I find more screwballs are independent that at wire houses and banks because they can really get paid.[/quote]

Spoken like an idiot who has no clue what other products exist outside the Jones system.  A fee based business is not an easy business to build or maintain.  You get virtually nothing up front, and have to actually service the accounts quarterly.  If you want to really make money you can sell L share annuities with up to 5% up front and 1.25% trails.  You are trained by Jones that fees are evil because they cost more over time, which in a static portfolio for 20yrs is true.  But if that is your business you can have it.  Just realize that Jones has you selling a shares so they can hire 200 idiots like you every month and try to open 15000 more offices in the next few years. They need that up front payout to fund growth, and having you start at 0 each month keeps you hungry and gathering more assets for their machine.  They get plenty of recurring revenue from revenue sharing that they wont have to share with you until you are grossing near 300k.  Even at that level your share of the recurring revenue is nothing to get excited about.  So go ahead repeat the mantra like the rest of the drones who have yet to see the light. 

RJFS attrition is about 3% if memory serves.  Where you gonna go if your already at a decent indy firm? 

I've seen reps from LPL and RJ (can't touch RJ since we do some work for them) that have moved to boutigue/smaller independents for a handful of reasons.  They'll range from higher payouts to different fee structures that will more positively impact their specific situation.  You don't see a lot of it, but it happens every once in a while.  We had a $750k LPL rep move to one of my smaller indy BDs last year, for example, but that's the only LPL rep they've brought on in the last five years.

I'm sorry, but as a client, if my rep wants to charge me 4% on a fee-based account and is netting me higher increases than the proportional fees/increases associated with funds, I'm all for it.  It's about what's best for each specific client and not the masses, you American Funds schlocking boob.

You are right, though, peanut.  It happens everywhere.  Keep in mind, though, that not all independents or wirehouse reps are 100% fee-based and most charge, at most 1-1.5% of assets under management.  Most of the fee-based reps I know don’t even charge 1%.  They will still have their clients that like being in funds, stocks, bonds, etc.