EDJ: Selling UK Operations
Apparently being sold to an English firm. Canada remains firmly within our future.
Wow. Good for them.
Good. I’m tired of carrying those limey pikers.
One more positive step by Weddle.
It was interesting to see that the firm that bought them is strictly fee-based.Where did you guys see this? I’d like to read about it.
Volt, as I’m sure you know by now, it’s on Joneslink and under Alerts.
Can’t you just Joogle it volt?
Check your alerts tab on Joneslink.
Wow. Didn't see that one coming. I agree with B24 that Weddle, et al made a good decision.I’ll take this opportunity to eat a little crow. I have been an EJ basher in the past, and still can’t stomach certain things about the firm (Alan Skrainka, regional nepotism, etc.). That said, the firm is a far better place than I left.
While I’m certainly a lot happier where I am and what I’m doing, I’m impressed as Weddle continues to flex his executive muscles (not easy to do when you are technically first among equals).
Bravo Mr. Weddle.
Thank you EDJ #1I’ll take this opportunity to eat a little crow. I have been an EJ basher in the past, and still can’t stomach certain things about the firm (Alan Skrainka, regional nepotism, etc.). That said, the firm is a far better place than I left.
While I’m certainly a lot happier where I am and what I’m doing, I’m impressed as Weddle continues to flex his executive muscles (not easy to do when you are technically first among equals).
Bravo Mr. Weddle.
[quote=BigCheese]
Jones FA's- This ought to be a wakeup call for all US FA's. Weddle isn't messing around anymore, he clearly has the firm in his control. Kudos to him, that couldn't have been easy to get the old guard to see his vision. Expectations are going up, you can bet on it. If I were a Canada rep, I would be very concerned about the future at EDJ. Bleeding will stop one way or another. Canada has to produce and its been at least 15 years since the move north. Sooner or later Weddle will sell it off if it isn't profitabale. And so far, according to the 10K, it has never been and may never be profitable. Spiff- It is not rocket science. If you lose money and don't have a prospect to be profitable you are going to be sold or fired. Weddle is exactly what you guys need to survive. [/quote] Why do you still waste your time reading our 10-K? I don't believe our survival was ever in question, no matter who was at the helm. Folks like you like to throw that around, but it just wasn't a reality. It still isn't. As for right now, Canada is still part of the long term picture from what we've been told. In fact, the letter Weddle sent out to the firm this morning implied that Canada has a much rosier future than the UK ever did. Feel free to check out the 10-K in your spare time. Perhaps one day in the near future you'll see a black number for Canada in place of a red one.[quote=Spaceman Spiff]
[/quote]
Perhaps one day he’ll get a life and spend his free time banging his wife of 23 years rather than reading our 10-k. Go gett’em BigCheese.
Here we go…
At this rate, maybe he’ll take on nepotism within the firm in 2010…
Oh, and can someone get John Bachmann a towel, please. The egg isn’t just on his face. It’s on his chest, his back, his abdomen, and probably up his a-hole as well. I’ve said it many, many times. I’ll say it again. JB was no genius. The further EDJ moves away from him, the more all of you will figure out how wrong he was on so many initiatives at the firm. And, the talent drain under his and Hill’s leadership was beyond measure.
I can understand why they would prolong Canada. They have invested heavily. Sooner or later accounting 101 comes into play. They have to make money there. 15 years into it, a substantial amount of time to test the waters, don’t you think?
Actually, it's like most big businesses. Usually each leader can take a firm only so far. JB did a great job of growing the company and bringing it anational presence, but he was not the right guy to bring them into the 21st century (nor was Dougie Fresh). Jim Weddle is much more of a current-day leader. I just think Weddle "gets it". Bachman was old-school.Oh, and can someone get John Bachmann a towel, please. The egg isn’t just on his face. It’s on his chest, his back, his abdomen, and probably up his a-hole as well. I’ve said it many, many times. I’ll say it again. JB was no genius. The further EDJ moves away from him, the more all of you will figure out how wrong he was on so many initiatives at the firm. And, the talent drain under his and Hill’s leadership was beyond measure.
So, it’s wrong to make an attempt to grow the firm in different way? See, I just don’t understand that. It’s a business. Sometimes you make a decision to try something and despite your best efforts to make it work, it just doesn’t. So, you have to make a choice to either keep sinking money into it until it does work, or cut your losses and move on. With the UK operation, the decision was made to move on. That doesn’t mean that Bachmann was a bad leader for making the decision.
Where do you think Jones would be today without the vision and leadership of a guy like Bachmann? Would we be one of the largest brokerage firms in the business? Or would be be a mid sized regional like Stifel or AGE? My guess would be we'd be much smaller than we are right now, if we even existed at all. When Bachmann took over as MP in 1980, there were only a couple of hundred offices. When he stepped down we were around 9500. It was his vision alone that grew the firm at that pace. I think Bachmann was a great leader for the direction the firm needed to go at the time. But, I'll agree with B24 that we needed a different man at the wheel to move forward. There will undoubtedly come a time when Weddle has grown the firm past what he can handle and someone else will take over. I just hope I can do as good a job as Bachmann and Weddle did before me.There will undoubtedly come a time when Weddle has grown the firm past what he can handle and someone else will take over. I just hope I can do as good a job as Bachmann and Weddle did before me.
Nice one!
Windy, get the heck off Spiffs computer.There will undoubtedly come a time when Weddle has grown the firm past what he can handle and someone else will take over. I just hope I can do as good a job as Bachmann and Weddle did before me.
It was down to Reamey or Weddle, I heard. Good choice.
ok. this is a one off. waving hello from the UK.
First and foremost, whatever level you are at in EJ in the US, would you spare ONE thought for those who who have worked their socks off for the past years, trying to make the EJ "culture" and business "model" work in this country? No, somehow I don't think so. So, all is good now. Relax in your comfy chair, one threat is gone. As one of those who have thrived, struggled and persevered to build a viable business in a Country, where everyone says to you at the door"Jones, who?", I can tell you that quite frankly, your snarling remarks are a very good reason why it never worked here. But Hey, as they said today, the model would have not work here....so get comfier in your chair. No harm to you, but, as my Clients have said time and time and again, we don't know them, but we know you. We don't trust them, but we trust you. In a position where my Clients, in less than 6 months, would have to be told, sorry, but your portfolio will have to be changed to choice A, B, or C.....and still expected to get new Clients with the same outcome over the next few months... are you for real? As if! One question for you then? When do you start caring for other than yourself? See I strongly believe that we, here, were very intent in doing what was right for our Clients. I would would dearly want to see the same happening where you are.... Reading those boards over the past year, has taught me something entirely different. to finish you are the very best at looking after number one, YOU. Best of luck. I don't envy you.broce - as someone who is not at Jones anymore, I have to say - you guys were a mistake to begin with. And a drag on profitability. Maybe if you had encouraged your fellow FAs to perform, it wouldn’t have happened.
Trust me, fee-based is the way to go.
You are better set up to run your own firm now.
Cheers.
Moraen,
I guess it is hard to see how unsuccessful, the "knock at doors" business has been here, but believe me I know very few who would have been there to"use" Jones for their own purpose. In truth,those few were all gone after a few months, as they would have been in the US. As for building my own, you are right. Chamber of Commerce dinner tonight, and told, make your own and we'll follow you. In this world, either you have integrity from day 0, or you don't. Despite intense pressure put on me over the past few months, to get commissions, no matter how, I have kept my way, and that is the right way, as shown in the dinner. So, really, I am not the looser here. I just get seriously frustrated when dismissed, as some have been so kind to do today. I guess, "who the hell do you think you are?"is my point. So, yes, my country actually does not need you, EJ, and neither do I. Bear in mind, that if you don't grow, you die......plenty of time yet, but I know your turn will come EJ US. As for the Canadians, from today, they know what to do. and they will.Broce,
Wish you nothing but the best moving forward! I used to work for EJ Canada and can relate to the issues you went through. "EJ who" "They're an American company aren't they" Canada has gotten a wake-up call, too often we were told "EJ will never sell. We are a privately held company and don't have the same pressures as a publicly traded firm. We are here for the long term." Best of luck to you moving forward. God Save the Queen. I wasn't serious about the last part.Quit being a wanker, Broce. I think maybe your an Indian Englishman?
Good luck to you, know the transition has got to be tough.
Voltmoie, my friend, leave our Indian friends out of it.
You are talking to an Irish man, who knows what a wanker is.... and it is not me.Volt, are you a racist too?Quit being a wanker, Broce. I think maybe your an Indian Englishman?
Good luck to you, know the transition has got to be tough.
[quote=broce]Voltmoie, my friend, leave our Indian friends out of it.
You are talking to an Irish man, who knows what a wanker is.... and it is not me.[/quote]Seriously, I wish you the best .. tough going through transitions. I suspect you'll be much better off in the end.
Volt, are you a racist too?[/quote][quote=voltmoie]Quit being a wanker, Broce. I think maybe your an Indian Englishman?
Good luck to you, know the transition has got to be tough.
Yes
Thanks Voltmoie. not knowing where I am going just yet, but relieved indeed.
ps. relieved also that I am not working along racists anymore. End of posting.
[quote=broce] Moraen,
I guess it is hard to see how unsuccessful, the “knock at doors” business has been here, but believe me I know very few who would have been there to"use" Jones for their own purpose. In truth,those few were all gone after a few months, as they would have been in the US.
As for building my own, you are right. Chamber of Commerce dinner tonight, and told, make your own and we’ll follow you.
In this world, either you have integrity from day 0, or you don’t. Despite intense pressure put on me over the past few months, to get commissions, no matter how, I have kept my way, and that is the right way, as shown in the dinner.
So, really, I am not the looser here. I just get seriously frustrated when dismissed, as some have been so kind to do today. I guess, "who the hell do you think you are?"is my point.
So, yes, my country actually does not need you, EJ, and neither do I.
Bear in mind, that if you don’t grow, you die…plenty of time yet, but I know your turn will come EJ US. As for the Canadians, from today, they know what to do. and they will.[/quote]
Broce - grow or you die is a myth. My business is perfectly sustainable right now if I didn’t want to grow it. Fee-based and fee only is the way to go.
I think Jones is learning that.
I’m sorry that the effort you put into a company has come to nothing. You bet on them, and they left you hanging.
Sorry brother.
The Jones model didn’t work in the UK largely the same way the model does not work in US urban areas. Please save all the St. Louis, Kansas City, blah, blah blah. Since '98, '99, '00, has it worked in LA, SF, Philly, Boston, NY, DC? What’s your market share there? Occasionally, you can make a hire where a guy has enough of a natural or professional network to get something going. But, the knock on doors, get to the know the pharmacist at the local corner drug store crap doesn’t work. And with rents at $24-40 sq/ft/nnn, the idea that you can have a business up and running in a year or two is a fairy tale.
The Jones model didn’t work in the UK largely the same way the model does not work in US urban areas. Please save all the St. Louis, Kansas City, blah, blah blah. Since '98, '99, '00, has it worked in LA, SF, Philly, Boston, NY, DC? What’s your market share there? Occasionally, you can make a hire where a guy has enough of a natural or professional network to get something going. But, the knock on doors, get to the know the pharmacist at the local corner drug store crap doesn’t work. And with rents at $24-40 sq/ft/nnn, the idea that you can have a business up and running in a year or two is a fairy tale.
It's more the rents than the prospecting method. People are people no matter where you live. I'd also imagine there are plenty of companies that like to poach 2-4 yr out advisors out of metros which makes retention a bit tougher.
Jones has addressed this and has a plan in progress. I think we'll see much more traction in years to come. NEXT
Sooth-
Haven't you heard? They are going to multiple reps while they are training before they get an office. Isn't that automatic that they will be successful in major metro areas? You claimed a couple of months ago Weddle wouldn't change anything until Bachman was pushing daisies (we have an owner of a football team out here we'd love to go that way too) and it appears Weddle hasn't been reading these forums because changes are definitely occuring. Anyone care to speculate how long Weddle will put up with continued losses in Canada? I'll wager 2 years. If no profit. Bye-bye.Mayor McCheese--I always admit when I'm wrong on here, but am more frequently proven correct--thus the moniker. I missed that one. I thought there would be more deference shown to Bachmann since the whole UK thing was his original bad idea. He owned it. And, he thought he was going to be such a genius in the long run. But, I'm with you on this. EJ Canada, the hourglass just got turned over on you!
The funniest part about all of this is that Juck Phones questioned EJ’s money losing international operations less than 60 days ago in these forums. Spiffy said that Jones was committed to those two countries, “no matter what.” He got the usual pile-on from the Jones’ zealot including Volt. Phones gets it. Money down that hole has a negative impact on the company during an industry wide downturn when there is only so much capital to go around.
I just wish some of the rest of you could step outside your pathetic little Jones world for a minute to see what a truly low-rent, third-class, control the message, pseudo-cult, quasi-multi-level-marketing, run by a bunch of greedy former pitchman goons your "firm" truy is. Phones asked a legitimate question--the kind I used to ask when I was there. Can you imagine the reaction in the room when the question at the summer regional was, "Any idea how much longer we're going to shovel money into the black holes known as Canada and the UK?" You were a pariah for even thinking such a thought, let alone wondering it out loud. John knew best. Doug knew best. Not for you to worry about. Now, go back to your office and sell some American Funds 3-pack and a 30-year muni. Pathetic. It was crap all along, and many of us knew it 10 years ago.5000 offices in the Uk and 2500 in Canada was the long term vision we were told, 2 years ago at my last regional. We always knew we (Canada) were losing money but kept being reassured that we were in the long term growth plans. “We are a partnership, we make our own plans, we don’t have the same pressures as a publicly traded company”. I don’t know how growth and profit is going to be any easier moving forward as those who were thinking about leaving but didn’t because of the markets will have a major incentive now, especially when Raymond James dangles a bit fat cheque.
Spiff tells us constantly how the GP’s know what they are doing and they’ll keep the non-US operations until they deem it necessary to sell.
Guess what Sir Spiffster- It became necessary for them to sell the UK and it will more than likely be necessary for them to get rid of another non-performing asset...Canada. Then the next step will be to change the model to DECREASE expenses and INCREASE revenue in the US. You know what that means...less correspondence on these forums (I notice that Spiff only responds during the business day) and more production. And don't be suprised if they come up with a new compensation plan to INCENT the Vets to produce more and those that are on the bottome rungs of the ladder (who are sitting back on their laurels)will either be let go or forced to leave because their comp will drop or both. Jones will have to adopt the more cut-throat techniques of the wires to survive. It won't be fun anymore to sing kumbayah around the fireplace with a shop on every corner the competitiion (in the future) between reps will be fierce. And all the great hand-holding that the new reps get from vets will have to be done by home office because the FA's will finally see the light...that they have been taken advantage of for far too long without any benefit other than keeping their jobs. Of course there is always the greatest incentive for non-producers to stay the coveted LP. Sooth...the further I am removed from Jones (now in my fourth year of independence) the more I realize what a joke it was for me to remain as long as I did. What was I thinking...if it walks, talks, and smells, it is what it is. So Sir Spifster...a great place to learn the biz, and as soon as it's possible, get out of dodge to save your career and reputation.Why is my career and reputation in jeapordy? See, I came to the office this morning thinking I was doing just fine and now I find out I have to go look at monster.com.
I can only imagine the warm fuzzy feeling you got, foot, when you heard that Jones was selling the UK division. You probably had to change your panties, you got so excited. I do post during business hours, because that's when I think about business. See, I have this thing that you might want to consider getting for yourself...a life. When I walk out of my office on Friday afternoon, I try not to think about the office, EDJ, RR, or anything else work related. You, however, evidently don't have anything better to do on a Sunday afternoon that to come on here and pontificate about the future of EDJ. As to your pontifications - who knows what will happen at Jones in the future. Jones will be saving $5 million a month when the UK division is gone. That will certainly make an impact on the budget. Canada is a bigger question mark today than it was last week, that's for sure. Jones is going to have to do some hand holding up there in an effort to retain as many good folks as possible. They're making a point to make sure we are told that as of right now, the business model will work in Canada better than in the UK, so they're committed to growing there. I hope that's true. Time will tell.[quote=Soothsayer]The funniest part about all of this is that Juck Phones questioned EJ’s money losing international operations less than 60 days ago in these forums. Spiffy said that Jones was committed to those two countries, “no matter what.” He got the usual pile-on from the Jones’ zealot including Volt. Phones gets it. Money down that hole has a negative impact on the company during an industry wide downturn when there is only so much capital to go around.
I just wish some of the rest of you could step outside your pathetic little Jones world for a minute to see what a truly low-rent, third-class, control the message, pseudo-cult, quasi-multi-level-marketing, run by a bunch of greedy former pitchman goons your "firm" truy is. Phones asked a legitimate question--the kind I used to ask when I was there. Can you imagine the reaction in the room when the question at the summer regional was, "Any idea how much longer we're going to shovel money into the black holes known as Canada and the UK?" You were a pariah for even thinking such a thought, let alone wondering it out loud. John knew best. Doug knew best. Not for you to worry about. Now, go back to your office and sell some American Funds 3-pack and a 30-year muni. Pathetic. It was crap all along, and many of us knew it 10 years ago. [/quote] Sooth, you might try de-caffeinated once in a while. This whole thread is sort of funny. We are talking about two tiny operations that are a fraction of our revenue and a drag on our profits. Personally, I could care less what happens to the UK or Canada. I DO care what happens to the associates, as I don't like employees at ANY firm to be forced through a transition. It has to be tough. But I think they will all land on their feet with the new firm(s). As far as Canada, regardless of what Jones has to say publicly, I am sure they have been going through the same DD process for several years, just like in the UK. Most likely, UK was tough to unload because of our model and the money-losing nature of the operation (although I think the assets are valuable, Jones simply had too much overhead). So the decision to unload the UK was probably made years ago. I assume the same decision has been made already in Canada (to either keep or sell).Foot, me thinks you is right. Weddle has not even tried to HIDE the fact that he wants more production of the seg 2/3/4 producers (or basically those people out more than 3-5 years that are just treading water). And I don’t blame him for it. I look around our region and it is pathetic how poor the production is. We have handfuls of guys out over 10 years that can barely hit 10K months. I mean, seriously. That’s awful. When you contrast that with the guys doing 30-40K/month out the same amount of time (from scratch, mind you), there is no reason Jones should not expect at least in the low 20’s. Personally (and I know these people), I think most of the underperformers have just been coasting on trails and maturing bonds, and work SO LITTLE it’s pathetic. I’m not saying you need to be working 50 hour weeks and opening 10 accounts a month after a decade. But it’s not too much to ask that you put in SOME effort. After 10 years, you must have at LEAST 5-8K in trails per month, and a few grand worth of recurring deposits, maturing bonds, etc., so most of the production is jsut happening on its own. If you simply picked up the phone and proactively called 100 clients per month, I guarantee you would uncover some new assets. I KNOW these guys are just lazy sh!ts. And they are just taking up shelf space where we could put productive people.
Talk to a friend of mine today who is at Jones still… 159 account ytd, end of year production will be around $525K. But he dialed his ass off the first 3 years.
But then when i asked him what his household average was "$156K"... That is what I hate about Jones.. too many small accounts.[quote=Squash1]Talk to a friend of mine today who is at Jones still… 159 account ytd, end of year production will be around $525K. But he dialed his ass off the first 3 years.
But then when i asked him what his household average was "$156K"... That is what I hate about Jones.. too many small accounts. [/quote] Very true. Trouble is, he probably scored a lot of gross from opening tons of small accounts, so in some cases, the 80/20 principle doesn't work at Jones. If he stopped opening small accounts, and got rid of his small accounts, he may kill his production. However, if he is opening that many accounts, and has a 150K average HH, chances are he has quite a few large accounts. He should convert his best clients to advisory fees and get rid of his small accounts, then stop taking small accounts. He would most likley have an average HH of around 350K if he did that. Of course, I could be way off.[quote=Squash1]Talk to a friend of mine today who is at Jones still… 159 account ytd, end of year production will be around $525K. But he dialed his ass off the first 3 years.
But then when i asked him what his household average was "$156K"... That is what I hate about Jones.. too many small accounts. [/quote] You must have meant that is what you hate about your friend. He or she is the one that opened "too many small accounts". If you are trying to convince us that Jones REQUIRED him/her to open small accounts you are either a bigger idiot than I suspected or you give everyone here far too much credit for being stupid. I know this post is guns blazing but this same old tired crap just gets old. You don't need a reason to hate Jones. Spare yourself the embarrassment of making up a lame one.[quote=Squash1]Talk to a friend of mine today who is at Jones still… 159 account ytd, end of year production will be around $525K. But he dialed his ass off the first 3 years.
But then when i asked him what his household average was "$156K"... That is what I hate about Jones.. too many small accounts. [/quote] You say he opened 159 accounts ytd like it's a bad thing. Those 159 accounts represent probably 40-50 households that used to be with another advisor. So, that's 40-50 additional opportunities for life insurance reviews, rollovers, referrals, etc. If each of those households makes just one $5000 IRA contribution, that's an extra $250K ($7500 -$10K gross) over the course of a year. Not a bad little pop to your T12. At some point your friend can decide that he works with enough people and start doing GKN plans. He can give away $5 MM of his pain in the butt clients or those small accounts that don't benefit him anymore and you'll see that $156K jump up quickly. And it won't kill his production. It will more than likely go up. Jones is full of vets who have been out for 10+ years who are whittling their books down just like your friend will someday.Spiff, It’s just two different ways of doing business. It’s not right or wrong. You’re both right. I think the point is that msot independant advisors can afford to take on fewer, larger clients, because they don’t need the pop this month to meet some arbitrary target. Yeah, it’s great to open 150 accounts in a year, but that takes a hell of a lot of effort. Personally, I would prefer working with fewer clients, and perfect my client service and investment processes so that MORE of my clients are “wowed” by their experience. If you open 150 accounts in one year (other than your first few years maybe), it is impossible to give every client in your book first class treatment. Based on the original comment, I am assuming this guy is out at least 5 or 6 years (or more). SO he probably has 750+ accounts (maybe 400 households?), and is adding new accounts at like one a day. So there is NO WAY he is giving service to everyone at that pace. Some people jsut don’t want to do the high-volume thing. But there are indies that still follow that model. I have wirehouse friends with thousands of accounts (maybe 1500 households). So it is not jsut Jones. There are Jones guys doing it the other way too. Guys like Jim McKenzie (350 housholds and $170mm AUM). But then there are the Wann Robinsons (1300/$275mm) and Jim Phillips (1400/$360mm) of the world. Would you want to be ONE GUY managing 1400 households?? Sure he makes a bundle of cash (nets over $1mm a year himself), but talk about workload.
I agree. Squash's comment was that he hates Jones because we open a lot of small accounts. The reality is that the size of the accounts and the number of households an advisor wants to handle is completely up to him. I'd love to have 100 clients with $1 mil in some sort of advisory account. Jim McKenzie's business model only works for him because he's been in the business since 1966. I'd bet if you back up and look at what kind of households he managed back in the 70's and 80's it wasn't 350. It was probably double or triple that.
I don't know that I'd want to try to manage 1500 households. Service is important to me and I assume it's important to most people. I don't want to be the guy in town with the reputation of being to big to take care of people.
The reality also is that in the Indy world you can have it both ways, and Jones’ limitations just don’t allow for that. The owner can work with the top 150 clients, and can hire registered reps to work with everyone else. As soon as Rep #2 gets 250 or so, they hire another person to take the bottom 100 and so on.
All the revenue goes to the owner’s rep #, he/she pays the RR about 30-40% of gross, and keeps the other 40-50% for himself.
The client is taken care of, the newer RR has an easier start in the business, and everyone is getting paid.
That's a helluva override! Are indies really charging their reps that much? I would think the payout would be more like 60-65% to the rep. Although you are just handing them a book.The reality also is that in the Indy world you can have it both ways, and Jones’ limitations just don’t allow for that. The owner can work with the top 150 clients, and can hire registered reps to work with everyone else. As soon as Rep #2 gets 250 or so, they hire another person to take the bottom 100 and so on.
All the revenue goes to the owner’s rep #, he/she pays the RR about 30-40% of gross, and keeps the other 40-50% for himself.
The client is taken care of, the newer RR has an easier start in the business, and everyone is getting paid.
Right–if you are a newbie, 30 or 40% on stuff handed to you beats 40% on pounding the pavement for every little morsel. If you have an exisiting book and therefore some options, 60-65% is more like it.
B24-Exactly, they are getting this business handed to them. No work required. The sad truth is that most often I see Indy firms bringing in Newbs with no real experience and getting this type of situation handed to them, and they have no appreciation for what went into it.
Also the 30-40% I refer to may not come in the form of commission, but a base salary, which often times makes it even sadder.
Amazing how someone adds a little fact to the discussion and everything goes silent. What happened to this thread?
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