The really scary stuff
I don’t know if prior posters believe in his comments or follow him but to me Pat Robertson is a PYSCHO. This stuff is scary
Haiti, the devil and Pat RobertsonBy David Waters
Pat Robertson is at it again. The purported Christian minister who suggested assassinating Venezuela leader Hugo Chavez and nuking the U.S. State Department, the reputed follower of Jesus who blamed the 9/11 terrorist attacks and Hurricane Katrina on pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays and lesbians, is now attributing the Haitian earthquake to Haiti's "pact to the devil."
"Something happened a long time ago in Haiti and people might not want to talk about," Robertson said Tuesday on his 700 Club show. "They were under the heel of the French, you know Napoleon the third and whatever. And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said 'We will serve you if you will get us free from the prince.' True story. And so the devil said, 'Ok it's a deal.' And they kicked the French out. The Haitians revolted and got something themselves free. But ever since they have been cursed by one thing after another."
One can only assume that Robertson is alluding to the fact that a majority of Haitians believe in and practice some forms of voodoo. Perhaps he's also referring to the fact that Roman Catholicism is the official religion of Haiti. It's also possible Robertson doesn't know what he's talking about.
Michael Lindsay, a Rice University sociologist and author of the book "Faith in the Halls of Power: How Evangelicals Joined the American Elite," suggests that Robertson does indeed know what he's talking about, and why: "Pat Robertson continues to distinguish himself as American evangelicalism's most flamboyant spokesperson. When tragedies strike, people naturally ask questions about why bad things happen to the innocent, and millions of Americans see the hand of God or the devil at work in natural calamities," Lindsay said. "But few religious leaders today draw the kinds of explicit connection as Pat Robertson has done with the Haitian earthquake. Robertson's comments reflect as much his rhetorical flourish and skill as a ratings booster as they do his theology."
Years ago I wrote a column saying that we should pay attention to the crazy things Robertson says because his thinking reflects the thinking of millions of fundamentalist Christians, many of whom support his multi-million-dollar "Christian" media empire and the political views he espouses. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe the time has come to stop paying attention to Pat Robertson. Surely the time has come for Robertson to stop making such shameful comments. Considering the massive death, destruction and misery in Haiti, it is shameful for anyone -- but especially a so-called minister of the gospel -- to suggest that God or the poor people of Haiti had anything to do with it.
Do you agree?
Robertson is like the white stuff at the corners of your mouth. He’s an idiot.
Although the suggestion to assassinate Chavez has merits.
I think Pat Robinson is off his medication.
I agree. The man is an idiot. I have an uncle who listens to Pat Robertson. He calls me every so often and frets about his accounts because Pat says the world is ending or a major catastrophe is going to happen. The man is nothing short of a God-Pimp. Unfortunately the folks like him are the most visible because of their TV programs. However, the Bible is full of warnings against false teachers and false prophets.
In my opinion the only thing the Haitians are guilty of is shoddy building codes, or lack thereof.I think he is closer to the brown stuff at the corners of the opposite hole, or is that crossing the line ? There are plenty of Christian Ministries in Haiti that are funded by groups in the states that have been making a difference for years in a land that is extremely dangerous and often times corrupt. I wonder if that clown thinks those people "deserved" this. The most ridiculous part of this entire thing is when 3,000 people die on 9/11 and 3,000 people die on Katrina , American's were opening their wallets to help. 100k plus are probably dead from this and I am willing to bet the donations will be less. Makes me sick.Robertson is like the white stuff at the corners of your mouth. He’s an idiot.
Although the suggestion to assassinate Chavez has merits.
[quote=Ron 14]
The most ridiculous part of this entire thing is when 3,000 people Americans die on 9/11 and 3,000 people Americans die on Katrina , American's were opening their wallets to help. 100k plus are probably dead from this and I am willing to bet the donations will be less. Makes me sick. [/quote] Fixed.Are you f***ing kidding me ? So you were ripping Spiff for not wanting to embrace people who had a lifestyle he didn't agree with, but you think it is fair that American's are more likely to help a tragedy in their own country then one on a much larger scale elsewhere ?
[quote=Ron 14]
Are you f***ing kidding me ? So you were ripping Spiff for not wanting to embrace people who had a lifestyle he didn't agree with, but you think it is fair that American's are more likely to help a tragedy in their own country then one on a much larger scale elsewhere ?
[/quote] Fair has nothing to do with it. If we're attacked by terrorists and our soul has been ripped out like on 9/11 then of course we're going to rally around each other more than we would if an earthquake happened in another land. The bottom line is we are at the end of a recession of epic proportions and the resources that many people would use for donations or help a few years ago just aren't available today.Lock EDJ - “My belief comes from some simple truths - Love your neighbor as yourself”
Unless they aren't American's ? 3rd- Fair has plenty to do with it. 9/11 was in the middle of an economic downturn also. Yes, you have a point because we were attacked, but what about Katrina ? Should we not send any aid to Haiti because of the economic downturn. You mean people can't spare a few hundred bucks or even $5 ? I am looking out the bank window now, plenty of clowns in the Starbucks drive thru. $5 goes a long way in Haiti.After just checking out these articles I think its safe to say that Americans, at least our government, is doing its best to do our part:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/13/spearheads-global-response-haiti-earthquake/ http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/14/clinton-early-estimate-number-casualties-haiti/ We'll see what happens with the public donations, I guess. Twitter and Facebook are evidently helping a lot as well: http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1953379_1953494_1953528,00.htmlI am definitely referring to public donations.
Ripping? I bit overstated. I did disagree. And I'm not sure how you draw the comparison between one's perception of others, and the act of charitable giving. Are you suggesting the scale of the devastation dictates where my charitable giving should go? How do I handle Rwanda? What about the Indonisian Tsunami? I feel for Haitians. Their lives are no more valuable to the world - and no less - than the stock brokers on the 105th floor of the WTC. But giving starts at home, even while loving thy neighbor as thyself. At the end of the day, resources are limited.Are you f***ing kidding me ? So you were ripping Spiff for not wanting to embrace people who had a lifestyle he didn’t agree with, but you think it is fair that American’s are more likely to help a tragedy in their own country then one on a much larger scale elsewhere ?
Don't change your tagline on account of me. I chuckle every time I see it.One of your more intelligent posts. I was scared you liked this guy… I might even change my tagline now.
[quote=Ron 14]Lock EDJ - “My belief comes from some simple truths - Love your neighbor as yourself”
Unless they aren't American's ?... Should we not send any aid to Haiti because of the economic downturn. ...[/quote] Ron ... fair has nothing to do with anything. My comment was simply a response to your bombastic, antagonistic approach to Americans in saying we'd give more to other Americans than to foriegners. Meanwhile, we have the reputation of being the most generous nation on the face of the earth - not only as a nation, but as individuals. You're dead wrong on this issue. Dead wrong.You changed my initial post. In doing so you made the inference that it makes sense for American's to give a higher dollar amount of charitable funds to an American tragedy than an international tragedy that is 30 times more devastating. If that makes sense to you then you need help. If we are to love our neighbor as yourself, which I also believe, then in my world I should give $1500 to the red cross for the Haiti disaster if I gave $500 to the red cross for Katrina.
I think there's a big problem when a group of people (In this case, the American public) suddenly become expected to shell out dollars after a catastrophe in another country. Donations, fundamentally are dollars/goods given to others out of the goodness of your heart. I have a problem when suddenly I feel an obligation to give to all kinds of groups/causes and have a feeling of guilt if I don't. One week its the firefighters standing at the stop lights w/their donation boots, the next week we have the food drive going through our office building, the next week its the Girl Scouts selling cookies, the next week its a co-worker raising money for a Walk-a-Thon, etc.. When I give to these causes I'd like to think that the person receiving them genuinely appreciates it rather than expects it. I'm not saying that giving to Haiti isn't a good cause. I'm saying that if I don't give my $5 I don't want someone climbing my ass telling me to do my part because there are 50,000 other causes out there. If Obama is giving $100 million to Haiti and $0 to the American Cancer Association, and I have a father that has died of cancer, then I'll give you one guess as to where my priorities lie.I am definitely referring to public donations.
Yes. Exactly. And if that's the case, you believe as I questioned, that you should give based on the severity of the calamity. That because more people died somewhere, you see the need is greater. And hence, the value of their lives is greater. So it must be, if I have only $2000 to give I and chosen to give $1500 to the Haitians. Don't make the mistake of suggesting your decision makes a value judgement of people's lives any more so or less so than mine. You are "loving" the Haitian more than the Nolan. Do you not see this? And by the way, I could (easily) argue that Katrina devastated a far, far larger population than the tragedy in Haiti. Perhaps not to the same extent, but at the end of the day, Port au Prince was home to hundreds of thousands. The greater New Orleans area alone comprised millions.You changed my initial post. In doing so you made the inference that it makes sense for American’s to give a higher dollar amount of charitable funds to an American tragedy than an international tragedy that is 30 times more devastating. If that makes sense to you then you need help. If we are to love our neighbor as yourself, which I also believe, then in my world I should give $1500 to the red cross for the Haiti disaster if I gave $500 to the red cross for Katrina.
3rd- I have to admit, that is a solid argument. I do believe the media has a huge influence on where funds are directed because the more coverage the more people feel their heart strings pulled. I guess my anger, as usual, is directed at the media. They covered Katrina like it was the end of the world and one week from now Haiti will be an afterthought, but you will definitely know the local 7 eleven was robbed.
Lock - How am I placing a value on one life over another ? I am donating the same as a ratio of lives lost. It is a hypothetical. I would say an event that killed 100,000 people would generate a greater need for assistance than an event that killed 3,000 people. Also, New Orleans is in the USA where systems are in place to help. Haiti is not a stable area and there is no chance to rebuild without help from elsewhere.Yes. Exactly. And if that's the case, you believe as I questioned, that you should give based on the severity of the calamity. That because more people died somewhere, you see the need is greater. And hence, the value of their lives is greater. So it must be, if I have only $2000 to give I and chosen to give $1500 to the Haitians. Don't make the mistake of suggesting your decision makes a value judgement of people's lives any more so or less so than mine. You are "loving" the Haitian more than the Nolan. Do you not see this? And by the way, I could (easily) argue that Katrina devastated a far, far larger population than the tragedy in Haiti. Perhaps not to the same extent, but at the end of the day, Port au Prince was home to hundreds of thousands. The greater New Orleans area alone comprised millions.[/quote] Please do !!! New Orleans Metro area as of 2000 Census was 1.3million. Port Au Prince metro area 1.7million.[quote=Ron 14]You changed my initial post. In doing so you made the inference that it makes sense for American’s to give a higher dollar amount of charitable funds to an American tragedy than an international tragedy that is 30 times more devastating. If that makes sense to you then you need help. If we are to love our neighbor as yourself, which I also believe, then in my world I should give $1500 to the red cross for the Haiti disaster if I gave $500 to the red cross for Katrina.
I think this argument is not needed. Americans, as always, will lead the way in this tragedy. With their wallets, with our soldiers, with our backs.
It is the way of things. People may call our country selfish, but we give more than any other nation.
Update: Speaking of - our Rotary club has already raised $100,000 since yesterday (mainly from members). In addition, those who didn’t give monetarily, gave clothes and food. The firehouse in town is half full. I’m sure we’re not the only one.
[quote=Ron 14]
Lock - How am I placing a value on one life over another ? I am donating the same as a ratio of lives lost. [/quote] By definition when dealing with a limited resource, you must make a value decision. Even giving proportionately by way of the extent of the tragedy remains a value decision. I don't know how more plainly I can put it than that. That said, this is my last post on the issue. I'll side with Morean's last post. Perhaps I can find another juicy BAB to sell ...[quote=LockEDJ][quote=Ron 14]
Lock - How am I placing a value on one life over another ? I am donating the same as a ratio of lives lost. [/quote] By definition when dealing with a limited resource, you must make a value decision. Even giving proportionately by way of the extent of the tragedy remains a value decision. I don't know how more plainly I can put it than that. That said, this is my last post on the issue. I'll side with Morean's last post. Perhaps I can find another juicy BAB to sell ...[/quote] This is true. That's why I give all my money to the girls over at the local Gentelman's club. I feel really, REALLY bad for them.Let me get this straight:
The Obama administration continues to bash the Bush administration for Katrina, yet is reaching out to George W. Bush to go to Haiti?!?! WTF?!
Him speak with forked tongue. - You have to read this in your best Tonto voice.
Maybe he's hoping that GW gets down there and they have another aftershock that kills some more people. That way he can blame Haiti on GW too. We didn't even talk about Haiti in my Rotary today. I was kind of suprised. Didn't even get an email encouraging to give to the foundation for help.[quote=Spaceman Spiff]Him speak with forked tongue. - You have to read this in your best Tonto voice.
Maybe he's hoping that GW gets down there and they have another aftershock that kills some more people. That way he can blame Haiti on GW too. We didn't even talk about Haiti in my Rotary today. I was kind of suprised. Didn't even get an email encouraging to give to the foundation for help. [/quote]That's a little shocking. But then again, one of the focuses of our particular Rotary group is Haitian education.
LOL - They probably will find a way to blame this on W. The guy spends all kinds of money on Katrina trying to give the locals work, but they want the National Guard to do everything for them.
If I were him, I'd give Obama a big finger and say, "I'm done with this sh!t. You deal with it!".
“The president believed that the partnership that President George W. Bush created between his dad and former President Clinton was obviously a highly effective way of ensuring that after this phase of the operation … obviously there is still going to be a tremendous need, and there will probably be a tremendous need for many, many months to come – that that’s the best vehicle and the most effective vehicle for setting that up,” Gibbs said.
"President Obama will keep the broken promises to rebuild New Orleans and the Gulf Coast," the White House Web site says to this day in a brief section on Katrina. Politicians, including the current administration and f***ing a$$holes. Robert Gibbs is just as much of a clown as the people that he's speaking on behalf of.[quote=Spaceman Spiff]Him speak with forked tongue. - You have to read this in your best Tonto voice.
Maybe he's hoping that GW gets down there and they have another aftershock that kills some more people. That way he can blame Haiti on GW too. We didn't even talk about Haiti in my Rotary today. I was kind of suprised. Didn't even get an email encouraging to give to the foundation for help. [/quote] I was kind of hoping that U.S. government aid to Haiti this week would increase the ROI on my paid 2009 estimated taxes.[quote=LockEDJ][quote=Ron 14]
The most ridiculous part of this entire thing is when 3,000 people Americans die on 9/11 and 3,000 people Americans die on Katrina , American's were opening their wallets to help. 100k plus are probably dead from this and I am willing to bet the donations will be less. Makes me sick. [/quote] Fixed.[/quote] By replacing people with Americans you are placing the value of an American above those from other countries. There would be no other reason for your reply in that way. I don't know how I can explain your own words to you any better. Your "fixed" statement says it is more important for American's to send aid after a tragedy that killed 3,000 Americans than to send aid after a tragedy that killed 100,000 Haitian's. I am still waiting for your argument regarding Katrina devastating more people than this earthquake.[quote=Spaceman Spiff]Him speak with forked tongue. - You have to read this in your best Tonto voice.
Maybe he's hoping that GW gets down there and they have another aftershock that kills some more people. That way he can blame Haiti on GW too. We didn't even talk about Haiti in my Rotary today. I was kind of suprised. Didn't even get an email encouraging to give to the foundation for help. [/quote] This is my entire point.WSJ home page says Americans, through the federal government, will be providing $100 million of (borrowed) money to help. Maybe they should put more money on their credit cards.
We should at least pray (seriously) for the dead and suffering, and for the efficient administration of 100m. As in, "please minimize corruption associated with aid". If you want to moralize or rail against others for not taking human misery seriously, don't stop at the border of your own mind.[quote=SometimesNowhere][quote=LockEDJ][quote=Ron 14]
Lock - How am I placing a value on one life over another ? I am donating the same as a ratio of lives lost. [/quote] By definition when dealing with a limited resource, you must make a value decision. Even giving proportionately by way of the extent of the tragedy remains a value decision. I don't know how more plainly I can put it than that. That said, this is my last post on the issue. I'll side with Morean's last post. Perhaps I can find another juicy BAB to sell ...[/quote] This is true. That's why I give all my money to the girls over at the local Gentelman's club. I feel really, REALLY bad for them.[/quote] I like to support single mothers as well.[quote=mlgone]I don’t know if prior posters believe in his comments or follow him but to me Pat Robertson is a PYSCHO. This stuff is scary
Haiti, the devil and Pat RobertsonBy David Waters
Pat Robertson is at it again. The purported Christian minister who suggested assassinating Venezuela leader Hugo Chavez and nuking the U.S. State Department, the reputed follower of Jesus who blamed the 9/11 terrorist attacks and Hurricane Katrina on pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays and lesbians, is now attributing the Haitian earthquake to Haiti's "pact to the devil."
"Something happened a long time ago in Haiti and people might not want to talk about," Robertson said Tuesday on his 700 Club show. "They were under the heel of the French, you know Napoleon the third and whatever. And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said 'We will serve you if you will get us free from the prince.' True story. And so the devil said, 'Ok it's a deal.' And they kicked the French out. The Haitians revolted and got something themselves free. But ever since they have been cursed by one thing after another."
One can only assume that Robertson is alluding to the fact that a majority of Haitians believe in and practice some forms of voodoo. Perhaps he's also referring to the fact that Roman Catholicism is the official religion of Haiti. It's also possible Robertson doesn't know what he's talking about.
Michael Lindsay, a Rice University sociologist and author of the book "Faith in the Halls of Power: How Evangelicals Joined the American Elite," suggests that Robertson does indeed know what he's talking about, and why: "Pat Robertson continues to distinguish himself as American evangelicalism's most flamboyant spokesperson. When tragedies strike, people naturally ask questions about why bad things happen to the innocent, and millions of Americans see the hand of God or the devil at work in natural calamities," Lindsay said. "But few religious leaders today draw the kinds of explicit connection as Pat Robertson has done with the Haitian earthquake. Robertson's comments reflect as much his rhetorical flourish and skill as a ratings booster as they do his theology."
Years ago I wrote a column saying that we should pay attention to the crazy things Robertson says because his thinking reflects the thinking of millions of fundamentalist Christians, many of whom support his multi-million-dollar "Christian" media empire and the political views he espouses. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe the time has come to stop paying attention to Pat Robertson. Surely the time has come for Robertson to stop making such shameful comments. Considering the massive death, destruction and misery in Haiti, it is shameful for anyone -- but especially a so-called minister of the gospel -- to suggest that God or the poor people of Haiti had anything to do with it.
Do you agree?
[/quote] For sure, from an ontological point of view, all we can say for certainty is, " it's a mystery". The possibility exists. Spend a few hours with the Old Testament before making up your mind.Robertson’s comments reflect as much his rhetorical flourish and skill as a ratings booster as they do his theology."
Obviously, anyone who tries to profit from this crisis is messed up. Who speaks for Pat Robertson? He speaks for himself. Do you really know his motive? Is God real? If you had to go to prison for ten years, and could only take one book, would that book be the Bible? If it was, and if you did, would you answer for certainty that the God of the Old Testament could not or would not wreak havoc on any people, like he punished to Jews? Now consider that Judaism, Islam and Christianity all share and revere the Old Testament. The logic goes, either you put yourself in a group of people who are open to God, and the Bible (as our prehistory, much of it written down from the oral prehistory of storytellers) - or you are in the group that negates all of that. If you are in the former group, some things are better left unsaid. We live in interesting times. If at some point, a vague or explicit realization hits you, that comes, not from your own logic, it may be that God is talking to you. It happens. As for Haiti, who are we to say? My understanding of Judaism and Christianity is that God has punished people who know better. Sound familiar? Why do agnostics attack that point with cynicism? Nip it in the bud. These days, folks are searching in new ways. As for real change, I think the last election shows it's not "out there". It begins with a few people, in the now. Interesting what feeling comes out of a few people in a small place talking about real stuff. Some agnostic now can make some comment and dispel the feeling, but it was here. If you're fully human, you have to at least entertain all possibilities, including the possibility that the Haitans are merely random victims of nature. But in the context of ontological history, even the opportunity to put ten bucks on your charge card to help the Haitans may be an opportunity (blessing) to make yourself a better person. It may have nothing to do with your ten bucks helping to pay for digging a rotting corpse out of the rubble. We don't know for sure. But be vigilant of people who would short circuit your thinking and feelings on the matter. Or speak on behalf of others, in this case, use Pat Robertson as a penny in the fuse box.[quote=Ron 14]By replacing people with Americans you are placing the value of an American above those from other countries.[/quote]
Yep. As I stated multiple times and you've failed to address, by using a limited resource a value decision of some sort must be made. I don't argue that I've made a value decision. You fail to see that you've made one as well. That's too bad. [quote=Ron 14]I am still waiting for your argument regarding Katrina devastating more people than this earthquake. [/quote] Apparently I overstated the equivilant population of NOLA; I also thought I had seen that P-a-P population was at 800K. However, I did say "Katrina devastated a far, far larger population than the tragedy in Haiti" ... and I think I can stand by this, when considering the entire coastal population of the the Gulf states. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: The destruction of Katrina cost the US an estimated 100 to 150 billion dollars. The GDC of Haiti is 7 Billion. In other terms, if you gave each and every resident of Port au Prince $10000 - which is approximately 37 years worth of income - you would have an equivilant economic disaster. If the WSJ suggests the Americans alone are sending $100,000,000 ... I think we have a pretty good response in order. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::I’m not sure what the exchange rate is for the dollar to Haiti (or even what currency they use), but I’m quite certain that $100MM will go considerably farther in Haiti than it will in NYC. Heck, that may be more than their GDP for all I know.
—
Okay, I did some research. GDP according to wikipedia is $11B. More interesting to me is that the IMF, the World Bank and of course the good ol’ USA forgave Haiti just last year of $1.2 Billion in outstanding debt and we the taxpayer were kind enough to kick in $20 Million to pay the interest on their debt until they settled up. I have compassion and sympathy for the Haitian people, but why in the heck is this the US taxpayers responsiblity?
Hulk … what’s 4BL between friends?
I don’t know if prior posters believe in his comments or follow him but to me Pat Robertson is a PYSCHO. This stuff is scary
Haiti, the devil and Pat RobertsonBy David Waters
You know what is scary to me? When your average mortal states things with unequivocal certainty.
We live in an age of "facts". Remember the clarity and transparency that Obama was going to bring to the political process? What we have now is corruption, everywhere. And yet we have folks clinging to that corruption, defending the status quo, even being cynical - not about the absolute fact of an earthquake - but about another human's interpretation of that fact. Meanwhile, we have the absolute fact of the corruption of government and big business. I wonder if we are getting further off track, as humans. I wonder if logic will be used - up to the bitter end - to deny the potential - the more open minded possibility - that human consciousness is not the greatest consciousness, and that the purpose of human consciousness is greater than eating, sleeping, and multiplying. Celebrate your humanity, but beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. Who are you to judge anyone? Even with your logic, if you ever elevate your mind to eight miles high, that patterns that you see may be very different than the view from here.You guys are right. Let them all crawl out by themselves. Why should we even waste $100 million to help out? That $100 million could go towards the college educations of all the kids who had a parent die on 9/11 or during Katrina. I donated during 9/11 and Katrina, but these people aren’t worth it. They aren’t Americans and Obama is sending money anyways. Off to Starbucks I go…
I really don’t think there’s gonna be an issue with getting people to contribute money. Facebook, Twitter, etc. is pushing the Haiti thing, and now this:
http://views.washingtonpost.com/theleague/nflnewsfeed/2010/01/nfl-to-promote-relief-efforts-in-haiti.html?referrer=emaillink[quote=Milyunair]WSJ home page says Americans, through the federal government, will be providing $100 million of (borrowed) money to help. Maybe they should put more money on their credit cards.
We should at least pray (seriously) for the dead and suffering, and for the efficient administration of 100m. As in, "please minimize corruption associated with aid". If you want to moralize or rail against others for not taking human misery seriously, don't stop at the border of your own mind. [/quote] Focus your prayers on the living. Let the dead take care of themselves.Bill Clinton is there helping manage things.
Can't stand the guy (any more), but I think it's great for the victims to have a leader leading. He's pitching for money. He can redeem himself a little more. Life is good. Maybe he'll be asking hard questions.Tsunami - US Private Donations 200 million: 230,000 deaths
9/11 - US Private Donations 1.88 billion: 2752 deaths Katrina - US Private Donations 3.27 Billion: 1815 deaths / 702 missing[quote=Spaceman Spiff][quote=Milyunair]WSJ home page says Americans, through the federal government, will be providing $100 million of (borrowed) money to help. Maybe they should put more money on their credit cards.
We should at least pray (seriously) for the dead and suffering, and for the efficient administration of 100m. As in, "please minimize corruption associated with aid". If you want to moralize or rail against others for not taking human misery seriously, don't stop at the border of your own mind. [/quote] Focus your prayers on the living. Let the dead take care of themselves. [/quote] We also pray for the souls of the newly departed. 40 days. The Protestants rejected this practice. Doesn't make it a fact. Kind of gives new (old) meaning to life - and death. Jesus isn't rolling in his grave, though. I wonder is the New York Times will do a series on Voodoo, and Shamanism, and if there will be a resurgence on interest in these topics. Ironically, the earthquake could help revitalize tourism in New Orleans. Kind of like - blogging on RR is more fun than doing (spiritual) work. Guilty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_for_the_deadI don’t want to get into a philosophical debate with you, so if you want to pray for those newly departed souls for the next 40 days, more power to you.
How about this - the Catholics, Orthodoxes (what's the pluran of orthodox?), and the Jewish folks can pray for the dead. The Protestants can pray for the living. That way there's enough praying going on to make everyone happy. Moraen - Rotary Foundation has established a Haiti Earthquake fund. Thought you might like to know.I think we should pray for all the young Hatian girls who are being made to give blowies to Slick Willie!
[quote=Spaceman Spiff]I don’t want to get into a philosophical debate with you, so if you want to pray for those newly departed souls for the next 40 days, more power to you.
How about this - the Catholics, Orthodoxes (what's the pluran of orthodox?), and the Jewish folks can pray for the dead. The Protestants can pray for the living. That way there's enough praying going on to make everyone happy. Moraen - Rotary Foundation has established a Haiti Earthquake fund. Thought you might like to know. [/quote] I used to be Protestant, I married into the Orthodox and converted. When overwhelmed, or underwhelmed, by the long liturgies and incense and eating and drinking afterward, I fall back on my Protesant root, which I profess to be golf during liturgy. I think it's funny that people who believe in nothing believe in attacking the outrageous beliefs of people who believe in something. Even insurance polices call earthquakes, "Acts of God". How quickly some forget.That is a sick thought. What is Slick Willie has preferences that run like the one fellow in Sopranos who kept his head down. We would probably eventually hear about it.I think we should pray for all the young Hatian girls who are being made to give blowies to Slick Willie!
[quote=Ron 14]Tsunami - US Private Donations 200 million: 230,000 deaths
9/11 - US Private Donations 1.88 billion: 2752 deaths Katrina - US Private Donations 3.27 Billion: 1815 deaths / 702 missing [/quote]Yes, the Tsunami donations were kind of small.
As for Katrina - it's even worse than that when you count all of the money that was flushed to DHS, but never spent, because the losers in NO didn't want to work to help rebuild their own city.
To be perfectly honest, I never give proportionally either. It's a flat rate.
The $3.27B given to Katrina was not an accumulation of 3,270,000,000 $10 donations. There were several gigantic donations given by people who had much to gain politically. Giving huge sums to the tsunami is not going to get people political gain, but giving huge sums to the right people in the wake of 9/11 or Katrina will get someone HUGE political gain. Same goes with Haiti. There won't be much to gain there. I'm sure the $5 and $10 donations from the Bill Niceguy's of the world will be similar, but the $10,000,000 donations and the $5,000,000 won't be as prevalent. Its a reality of the world. Suck it up, thats the way our nation works. I've got no problems.
On a related note, here's a $3,000,000 donation by Tiger Woods. You think his sorry ass is giving this money because he feels for the desolate grade school teacher who just lost everything, or because he's trying to weasel his way back into America's good conscience? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/abraham/detail?blogid=95&entry_id=55338[quote=3rdyrp2]
The $3.27B given to Katrina was not an accumulation of 3,270,000,000 $10 donations. There were several gigantic donations given by people who had much to gain politically. Giving huge sums to the tsunami is not going to get people political gain, but giving huge sums to the right people in the wake of 9/11 or Katrina will get someone HUGE political gain. Same goes with Haiti. There won’t be much to gain there. I’m sure the $5 and $10 donations from the Bill Niceguy’s of the world will be similar, but the $10,000,000 donations and the $5,000,000 won’t be as prevalent. Its a reality of the world. Suck it up, thats the way our nation works. I’ve got no problems.
On a related note, here's a $3,000,000 donation by Tiger Woods. You think his sorry ass is giving this money because he feels for the desolate grade school teacher who just lost everything, or because he's trying to weasel his way back into America's good conscience? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/abraham/detail?blogid=95&entry_id=55338[/quote]Or because he's trying to get someone there to voodoo his wife back home and voodoo his sponsors who dropped him.
[quote=3rdyrp2]
The $3.27B given to Katrina was not an accumulation of 3,270,000,000 $10 donations. There were several gigantic donations given by people who had much to gain politically. Giving huge sums to the tsunami is not going to get people political gain, but giving huge sums to the right people in the wake of 9/11 or Katrina will get someone HUGE political gain. Same goes with Haiti. There won't be much to gain there. I'm sure the $5 and $10 donations from the Bill Niceguy's of the world will be similar, but the $10,000,000 donations and the $5,000,000 won't be as prevalent. Its a reality of the world. Suck it up, thats the way our nation works. I've got no problems.
On a related note, here's a $3,000,000 donation by Tiger Woods. You think his sorry ass is giving this money because he feels for the desolate grade school teacher who just lost everything, or because he's trying to weasel his way back into America's good conscience? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/abraham/detail?blogid=95&entry_id=55338[/quote] Really ? So when you see something that you believe to be wrong or unfair you just keep your mouth shut and suck it up because that is how our nation works ? No thanks. You have no problems with people who make charitable donations to erase previous wrongs or to gain politically ? That is pitiful. I can't believe that I am the only one who sees the inequity in the donations related to each event.[quote=Ron 14][quote=3rdyrp2]
The $3.27B given to Katrina was not an accumulation of 3,270,000,000 $10 donations. There were several gigantic donations given by people who had much to gain politically. Giving huge sums to the tsunami is not going to get people political gain, but giving huge sums to the right people in the wake of 9/11 or Katrina will get someone HUGE political gain. Same goes with Haiti. There won't be much to gain there. I'm sure the $5 and $10 donations from the Bill Niceguy's of the world will be similar, but the $10,000,000 donations and the $5,000,000 won't be as prevalent. Its a reality of the world. Suck it up, thats the way our nation works. I've got no problems.
On a related note, here's a $3,000,000 donation by Tiger Woods. You think his sorry ass is giving this money because he feels for the desolate grade school teacher who just lost everything, or because he's trying to weasel his way back into America's good conscience? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/abraham/detail?blogid=95&entry_id=55338[/quote] Really ? So when you see something that you believe to be wrong or unfair you just keep your mouth shut and suck it up because that is how our nation works ? No thanks. You have no problems with people who make charitable donations to erase previous wrongs or to gain politically ? That is pitiful. I can't believe that I am the only one who sees the inequity in the donations related to each event. [/quote]I see it Ron. But what will you do? We give aid to Haiti every year. Not just in times of crisis. What have they done with it. 50% unemployment?
My issue is this. I am tired of the world talking about our country as if we are the worst thing in the world. We are evil, we are what's wrong with the world. But then beg for our help when they can't take care of themselves.
It is like a kid who tells his parents that they are stupid, and that he is all grown up and their ways are backward and they need to change, but when that kid can't afford to live in his house and loses his granola-chewing job, he goes and lives with his parents at 40 and doesn't want to help around the house.
I'm sick of it. I will give my money to this cause. But I feel as though I'm throwing money down a hole. So why do I give? Because it's right to try and help people.
It's an institutional problem and there's nothing you or me can do about it. You can call the moral police and scold the billionaires if you'd like but the odds that they give a damn is very small. The general public can do our part all we want and we are, but anything we decide to give will pale in comparison to what the Buffett's of the world can do, and they aren't going to change. If they can give to one cause and gain nothing, or give to another cause and gain a lot personally, they will ALWAYS choose the one where they gain as well. Whether its wrong or not, there's no use in me losing sleep over it because its never going to change. If you just signed on a client that can roll over $500,000 to you, and you have a friend over at Wachovia who just signed on a $500,000 and asks for your help on how to sell the client on rolling the money over, which one would you spend more time on? Making sure your client rolls over their money, or making sure your friend succeeds in getting their rollover? Each client deserves quality service and the best investments, so really you should be giving it equal weight. But you have a job to do and you want to keep your job so you will spend more time on your own client. I doubt that philosophy would ever change.
The rollover analogy is a bit of a stretch, but I see what you guys are saying. I am also tired of how the rest of the world views us as evil. I am also tired of the fact that people who receive help usually f*ck it up anyway. I also see that there is not a damn thing I can do about it. The thing I am most tired of is the meatheads of society who if you pulled them to the side and asked them a simple question like, “Which tragedy killed more people Hurricane Katrina or the Tsunami ?” You would find a LARGE number who would say Katrina. People are idiots and whatever is talked more about in the media they will flock to. That is why we have President Barry, but that is an entirely different story. The meatheads won’t donate because in a few weeks Haiti will be forgotten and if the media isn’t talking about it the meatheads don’t see the relevance. This creates the inequity, MEATHEADS.
[quote=Moraen]
[quote=Ron 14][quote=3rdyrp2]
The $3.27B given to Katrina was not an accumulation of 3,270,000,000 $10 donations. There were several gigantic donations given by people who had much to gain politically. Giving huge sums to the tsunami is not going to get people political gain, but giving huge sums to the right people in the wake of 9/11 or Katrina will get someone HUGE political gain. Same goes with Haiti. There won't be much to gain there. I'm sure the $5 and $10 donations from the Bill Niceguy's of the world will be similar, but the $10,000,000 donations and the $5,000,000 won't be as prevalent. Its a reality of the world. Suck it up, thats the way our nation works. I've got no problems.
On a related note, here's a $3,000,000 donation by Tiger Woods. You think his sorry ass is giving this money because he feels for the desolate grade school teacher who just lost everything, or because he's trying to weasel his way back into America's good conscience? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/abraham/detail?blogid=95&entry_id=55338[/quote] Really ? So when you see something that you believe to be wrong or unfair you just keep your mouth shut and suck it up because that is how our nation works ? No thanks. You have no problems with people who make charitable donations to erase previous wrongs or to gain politically ? That is pitiful. I can't believe that I am the only one who sees the inequity in the donations related to each event. [/quote]I see it Ron. But what will you do? We give aid to Haiti every year. Not just in times of crisis. What have they done with it. 50% unemployment?
My issue is this. I am tired of the world talking about our country as if we are the worst thing in the world. We are evil, we are what's wrong with the world. But then beg for our help when they can't take care of themselves.
It is like a kid who tells his parents that they are stupid, and that he is all grown up and their ways are backward and they need to change, but when that kid can't afford to live in his house and loses his granola-chewing job, he goes and lives with his parents at 40 and doesn't want to help around the house.
I'm sick of it. I will give my money to this cause. But I feel as though I'm throwing money down a hole. So why do I give? Because it's right to try and help people.
[/quote]
Along this train of thought, I guess the looting has begun. Personally I thought it would have at least taken a few more days, but I guess not.
No. And the complaints that aid is coming slow has already started happening.
That stuff was happening the first day. People were running through parks where people were sleeping yelling "flood." Everyone would jump up and start running, leaving items behind and the thieves would come and scoop things up.
If your wife or son or daughter had a broken leg and/or your family didn't have food you guys would be doing whatever it took to help them. I know I would.[quote=Ron 14]
That stuff was happening the first day. People were running through parks where people were sleeping yelling “flood.” Everyone would jump up and start running, leaving items behind and the thieves would come and scoop things up.
If your wife or son or daughter had a broken leg and/or your family didn't have food you guys would be doing whatever it took to help them. I know I would. [/quote]I could be wrong, but I don't think all the looting was for food/etc. Even if it was, stealing food/aid from someone else doesn't make you noble, it makes you an animal.
No, those were two separate comments. The looting early on was just flat out stealing, but I am sure both are happening now. You can call it being an animal or whatever, but if stores are collapsed, I can't get into my own home, I can't get help in anyway I am not going to stand by and watch my family in pain. If a store has collapsed and things are laying there with no ability to purchase them and your family is in need I don't think theft would describe that action.
My two cents:
I will always give priority to disasters on US soil over any other countries. So, 9/11, Katrina have hit me harder than Haiti. However, given that there are many americans dead or missing in this recent disaster, I do want to help them (the americans) as well. Now, this doesn't mean I don't care about others, but I will always put my fellow americans first! Any yes, I have traveled to many countries and I have donated to Haiti and the Tsunami (when that happened).[quote=Milyunair]Bill Clinton is there helping manage things.
Can't stand the guy (any more), but I think it's great for the victims to have a leader leading. He's pitching for money. He can redeem himself a little more. Life is good. Maybe he'll be asking hard questions. [/quote] Nope, Bill is in MA canpaigning for Martha Coakley. Apparently, her senate run (for Ted Kennedy's vacant seat) is much more important than the Haitians. She was way ahead, but Scott Brown is now leading the polls, a disaster for Obama's health care bill prospects.God's will be done in MA. If people are swayed to vote for a Democrat by Clinton in MA, they will get what they deserve.
I just want to be clear here that I don't agree with or support Pat Robertson. I believe that the wisdom of the Church would say something like, " don't speculate about these things ". When you start speculating about these things, or start speculating about the speculator, you simple turn off the path. The simple definition of sin is, " to miss the mark ". What is the mark? Light. We are all guilty, at times, of turning away from the light. I do believe that good and evil are real. If you believe that good and evil are real, and you believe in heading toward the light, you are probably in the majority. America was built on a majority of people who believe in truth and fairness. What is happening in America right now is this: a certain number of folks are confused about saving the world and saving themselves. They delegated their trust to a leadership that is corrupt. If you don't believe this, look at the lack of transparency in the political process. Special interests are still prevailing. Unfortunately, at the same time, perhaps a majority of folks find it is in their economic interest to go along with this corruption. For example, if you have not save enough for retirement and you are now paying zero taxes, or if you work for a union, it's okay to fudge the morality a little bit. Like, don't hold leaders accountable who said during the election that there would be transparency. Or, don't worry if taxes, government and big business kill individual motivation and incentives to take risk and work hard. This is a moral dilemma for all Americans. We'll see how the story works out. Ironically and comparatively, after all of the suffering in Haiti, maybe it will become a better place. Less corruption, more order in Paradise.[quote=Milyunair]
God’s will be done in MA. If people are swayed to vote for a Democrat by Clinton in MA, they will get what they deserve.
I just want to be clear here that I don't agree with or support Pat Robertson. I believe that the wisdom of the Church would say something like, " don't speculate about these things ". I do believe that good and evil are real. After all of the suffering in Haiti, maybe it will become a better place. Less corruption, more order in Paradise. [/quote]Obama is heading to MA now. Brown doesn't have a chance. Oh, well. Would have loved to see that vote swing the other way.
[quote=Moraen]
[quote=Milyunair]
God’s will be done in MA. If people are swayed to vote for a Democrat by Clinton in MA, they will get what they deserve.
I just want to be clear here that I don’t agree with or support Pat Robertson. I believe that the wisdom of the Church would say something like, " don’t speculate about these things ".
I do believe that good and evil are real.
After all of the suffering in Haiti, maybe it will become a better place. Less corruption, more order in Paradise.
[/quote]Obama is heading to MA now. Brown doesn’t have a chance. Oh, well. Would have loved to see that vote swing the other way.[/quote]
Not sure I agree, he’s either ahead or even in all of the recent polls. It could happen. Coakley’s campaign has been awful.
The reports are that Obama visiting MA will have a net negative on Coakley. The polls showed that when Obama’s name was mentioned in conjunction with Coakley, her numbers tanked.
So, one of two things are going to happen. He's going to go and she'll win. They'll pat him on the back and say job well done. Or he goes in, she loses anyway (like the other couple of times he's tried this stunt), and they throw him under the bus. It's a big political risk. And if it goes the wrong way, he's done. Lame duck 12 months into his term.Spiff, good stuff, good entertainment.
Successful at what?
[quote=Milyunair]
God's will be done in MA. If people are swayed to vote for a Democrat by Clinton in MA, they will get what they deserve.
I just want to be clear here that I don't agree with or support Pat Robertson. I believe that the wisdom of the Church would say something like, " don't speculate about these things ". When you start speculating about these things, or start speculating about the speculator, you simple turn off the path. The simple definition of sin is, " to miss the mark ". What is the mark? Light. We are all guilty, at times, of turning away from the light. I do believe that good and evil are real. If you believe that good and evil are real, and you believe in heading toward the light, you are probably in the majority. America was built on a majority of people who believe in truth and fairness. What is happening in America right now is this: a certain number of folks are confused about saving the world and saving themselves. They delegated their trust to a leadership that is corrupt. If you don't believe this, look at the lack of transparency in the political process. Special interests are still prevailing. Unfortunately, at the same time, perhaps a majority of folks find it is in their economic interest to go along with this corruption. For example, if you have not save enough for retirement and you are now paying zero taxes, or if you work for a union, it's okay to fudge the morality a little bit. Like, don't hold leaders accountable who said during the election that there would be transparency. Or, don't worry if taxes, government and big business kill individual motivation and incentives to take risk and work hard. This is a moral dilemma for all Americans. We'll see how the story works out. Ironically and comparatively, after all of the suffering in Haiti, maybe it will become a better place. Less corruption, more order in Paradise. [/quote] Helluva a good post. Wish the last sentence was true, but I fear not. How often has such a thing happened?I realize that he HAS to go there. My point was that if the dems lose the election, he's going to get thrown under the bus by his own party. If he doesn't go, they'll say that he should have. If he does, they'll say that his visit pissed off enough republicans that they got out en masse and voted their guy in. He's pretty screwed either way. The only way he comes out smelling like a rose is if the dems win that election. I'm not hoping for his demise. I'm also not hoping for a socialist state where the government, who can't even run the programs they already control, take over my life. That's the point and importance of this election in MA. They NEED that 60th vote. I would love to look back at the Obama administration and say he did a good job and put the country on the right path. I just simply don't see that happening.
Every President does this for a key state. I don’t agree with Obama but I am willing to evaluate him at the end. If you are hoping for his demise now, what are you saying for your country. Bush left us in a sh*thole, this guy ain’t doing great but I hope he is sucessfull for our sake
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